Talk:Valhalla train crash

Valhalla train crash (final version) received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on 10 March 2024 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Valhalla train crash has been listed as one of the Engineering and technology good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: May 14, 2020. (Reviewed version).

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Death Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. project's importance scale .

New York (state): Hudson Valley Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York (state), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York (state)Wikipedia:WikiProject New York (state)Template:WikiProject New York (state)New York (state) articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Hudson Valley (assessed as Low-importance).

Trains: in New York City / Operations Low‑importance

Trains Portal Sel week 2, 2016 This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. See also: WikiProject Trains to do list and the Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Associated projects or task forces: /  This article is supported by WikiProject New York City Public Transportation (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by the Operations task force.

A fact from Valhalla train crash appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 6 March 2015 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that the driver killed in the Mercedes-Benz ML350 on the tracks for about 30 seconds before the train struck it? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2015/March. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Valhalla train crash.

Tip: Anchors are case-sensitive in most browsers. This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist. [[Manual transmission#column-mounted shifter|protrudes from the steering column]] Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. | Reporting errors

In diff, WWGB requests a citation for only the second incident with passenger fatalities in MNR history. I don't have a good source offhand. But there are plenty of sources for December 2013 Spuyten Duyvil derailment was the first passenger fatalities in MNR history. Best I could find is [1] but the language used is maybe not explicit. could use another pair of eyes. quote:

Before Tuesday, the most devastating crash had occurred at Spuyten Duyvil in the Bronx in December 2013, when four passengers were killed and more than 70 others were injured in a derailment on the Hudson line.

It was the first crash to result in passenger deaths in the railroad’s history. Now it has grim company, although the circumstances on Tuesday appeared notably different.

--

That seems clear enough to me. Mjroots (talk) 06:57, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The Spuyten Duyvil derailment was the first derailment in MNR's history, no deaths have happened on MNR trains between that incident and the Valhalla crash, so one can reasonably assume this is the second incident with passenger fatalities. Epic Genius (talk) 14:40, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I understand that the article is going to be in American English because we are dealing with an event in the US. Is "signalized" really the best word to use? Would "controled" (controlled in Br. Eng, not sure if Am. Eng loses the double "l") be a better word? Mjroots (talk) 07:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, American English does use two "l's," but "signalized" is an appropriate description. I've seen parts of the country where "control" is limited to signs at the crossings, even on Long Island. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 14:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, just seems such an odd word to me though. Mjroots (talk) 15:03, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I linked it in case any online reader needs to know what is meant. Daniel Case (talk) 19:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea where any of you are from, but this article could really do with a better image that actually shows the crash. Anyone in the area is invited to upload it, preferably to Commons. Sadly no fair use applies here so its the only way we can get one. Thanks! EoRdE6^{(Come Talk to Me!)} 20:27, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

www.commons.wikimedia.org? That's not the right site. I changed the link. Epic Genius (talk) 20:43, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: umm yes www.commons.wikimedia.org you can put www in front of anything... You do know that right? EoRdE6^{(Come Talk to Me!)} 01:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@EoRdE6: No, "https://www.commons.wikimedia.org" creates a HTTPS error. Your connection is not secure if you click that link, because it doesn't match the certificate sent by that website. Better to just use the http://commons.wikimedia.org link. Epic Genius (talk) 03:01, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone could get over there before they clear the wreckage, that would be great; otherwise we could upload a fair use image, as it would document a uniquely historic and unreproducable event. ɱ (talk · vbm) 21:03, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in Manhattan right now and live in Queens, so my involvement out of the picture. I wonder if Daniel Case is close enough to the site. (Pinging him as he's also the main contributor to the article, and uploaded an image of a shuttle bus earlier today.) Epic Genius (talk) 21:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, MTA doesn't have any photos of the crash on Flickr. Epic Genius (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I do have family members over there; I'll let you know if one of them'll do itɱ (talk · vbm) 21:16, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. In case you do, that would be very helpful. Epic Genius (talk) 21:17, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've been told the train has already been moved to a warehouse off-site, and that the SUV is gone too. So no luck with any present photos, though I know someone who might've taken some...--ɱ (talk · vbm) 22:46, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I see, the MTA does work fast. Maybe they're going to restore service within the week. Well, if you can't find any free use photos, we can use a fair use photo from one of the news sites. Epic Genius (talk) 23:21, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(←) MTA service was restored this morning (they are fast), see the paragraph I added in "Aftermath". Also, I haven't been able to find any free ones; I'll let someone else double-check before I fair-use upload.--ɱ (talk · vbm) 23:28, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FFM784 already uploaded NTSB images of the train here and here. All images taken by NTSB employees while on their official duties are government-owned and so are public domain. Good catch, FFM784. @Ɱ:, pinging you as free images have already been found. Epic Genius (talk) 00:56, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I saw it as he added it. That's odd how NTSB images are PD yet the NTSB marks its Flickr photos under CC-NC (not Wiki-acceptable). Also Epicgenius, that 're' or 'ping' template has a number of complexities, and thus it won't actually ping unless certain conditions are met, see the template page for details. I think brackets will still ping without condition, like User:Epicgenius.--ɱ (talk · vbm) 01:19, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether to be more impressed with the NTSB's publication of the picture, or Metro-North's restoration of service. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 01:26, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently any NTSB images taken under official duty is under a public domain license (no commercial use, though.) Epic Genius (talk) 02:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Ɱ: Didn't get that ping, unfortunately. It's supposed to ping whenever a user signs 4 tildes. Epic Genius (talk) 02:59, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need to link "headlights", "laptop", "union", "climbing", or "gasoline"? Are we next going to link "fatalities", "Investigators", and "evidence"?--ɱ (talk · vbm) 23:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. That's

WP:OVERLINK. EoRdE6^{(Come Talk to Me!)} 01:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

 Done I removed the links per

WP:Linking. Epic Genius (talk) 02:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

I had linked them for different reasons, primarily because their meanings may not be

Commonwealth English).

"Climbing", I linked because while the sport's participants know what is meant, for more people than you would think "climbing" is as much how you get up a ladder or staircase as how you get up Half Dome—so linking it is of service to a reader who doesn't realize that technical climbing, the latter kind, is what was meant. Daniel Case (talk) 05:24, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

I linked gasoline because it is a "foreign" word to most of the English speaking world, we say

petrol. It should be linked for this reason. Mjroots (talk) 07:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

We seem to have decided that one of the victims, Walter Liedtke, is notable, and based on his reported accomplishments (curator of European art at the Met; author of a two-volume guide to the museum's Dutch paintings) I don't doubt that he was.

But it occurs to me that another victim,

Valhalla train crash#Aftermath now says:

Commerce Street remains closed to vehicles, and is due to reopen when the NTSB finishes its investigation.

Apparently reopened 5+ days ago but can't find a good ref. Best I found was dailyvoice.com. (see also

Are there any reliable sources that have speculated on the possibility of a suicide attack as a motive? Redhanker (talk) 22:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Per

WP:SPECULATION, speculation is not allowed in articles regardless of the reliability of the source. Transcendence (talk) 22:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

In particular I quote from

WP:SPECULATION: "Speculation and rumor, even from reliable sources, are not appropriate encyclopedic content." Transcendence (talk) 22:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply

]

There might be, but we'll wait and see what those reliable sources say when they've been laying off the bong hits for a while. Daniel Case (talk) 00:28, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your snarky response will fly over this person's head. Redhanker has been tying every average shooting and accident to terrorism for years on Wikipedia now. Transcendence (talk) 01:22, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In which case, better a snarky response. Daniel Case (talk) 02:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Suicide attack seems unlikely. She could have just left the car, as others have done (one possibly wrist-cutting before or afterward to make it look like a canceled suicide). Reckless suicide with unintended consequences (few could have predicted that the Metro-North line is a bad place for this kind of suicide due to its third-rail design), maybe. Her actions seemed deliberate, and they were puzzling: calmly looking at the rear scrape, getting back in the car, driving forward onto the rails, and then waiting for the train. But intent would require her to also intentionally get trapped there, and intent gives no reason to get out and check the damage – a look out the window to verify alignment with the tracks would suffice. Maybe she only decided to die after seeing the scrape, having a very low threshold (ridiculous). There's lots of speculation, mostly by bloggers and commenters, some opinionated. Does any reliable source state that investigators give any chance to suicide as the explanation? Go fish: (Google search) One media quotes her daughters saying "I thought that maybe she committed suicide. ...", but concluding "She's not a murderer." Anyone would wonder about suicide as a possible explanation, surely including the investigators. But that's not noteworthy unless an investigator rules suicide in (or out), based on some scrap of evidence. Lacking a clear sign of intent, it's presumed an accident; a fatal, possibly distracted miscalculation. -A876 (talk) 22:14, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

After nearly two years, my theory is that when the guy behind her backed up, she thought that meant she was past the tracks rather than on them (remember, she probably wasn't familiar with that detour, and it was dark). Thus her apparent nonchalance as she takes the barricade off her car and gets back in to drive off ... she didn't think she was in any danger. (I also suspect there was some reason for her to be distracted as well). Daniel Case (talk) 23:57, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In a paragraph I just added, it mentions that to facilitate the underrunning configuration of the trains' shoes, the tips of the third rails are slightly upturned at grade crossings (suggesting that it might have been a factor in why the rails came loose on impact).

This should be easy to get a picture of and illustrate ... even if we can't get a picture of the third rails at the Commerce Street crossing yet, there are plenty of other grade crossings on the Harlem Line in upper Westchester—in addition to the nearby Valhalla and

Addendum: Ideally we could get something like the picture at right, from our German friends. Daniel Case (talk) 06:02, 19 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I guess this image would be fine, since we really don't have any images of under-running Metro-North third rails, which look similar to the third rail in File:Stromschiene-unterbricht-am-Bahnuebergang-Berlin-Lichtenrade-S-Bahn LWS0412.JPG. The actual Metro-North third rail looks like this. Epic Genius (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My point is, that given how easy it is to get close enough to the rail ends at stations like Katonah and Brewster, a similar image from Metro-North shouldn't be hard to get. Daniel Case (talk) 22:48, 20 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. You or another editor can easily take a picture of that third rail at a Metro-North railroad crossing (all the better if the MTA releases a picture of the third rail in its Flickr). I'm way too far from any Metro-North grade crossings. Epic Genius (talk) 22:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

After a good faith move, and reversal of same, I've move protected the article to prevent a move war. If an editor feels strongly that the article should be moved, then

I spent about 45 seconds sizing up this article, but I can already tell that it's a winner! How do I nominate this article for a trains portal featured article? Srwalden (talk) 13:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Figured it out! Submitted as a nomination under Portal:Trains/Selected_article_candidates - Srwalden (talk) 13:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Diff
Just because 8 people is more than 6 doesn't mean you use a source that DOESN'T say anywhere that officials are calling the Philadelphia crash the worst since Valhalla. --@Libertarian12111971: I want to point this out. NOBODY SAID THAT. At that point in 2015, it was the deadliest passenger train crash in the United States since the 2009 Washington Metro train collision, which killed nine people and injured eighty others; the May 2015 Philadelphia train derailment involving a speeding Amtrak train surpassed it, killed eight people. Never does it say the worst. It has more deaths and that what the article is saying. Nowhere does it say worst or anything of the sort. It is a factual statement. EoRdE6^{(Come Talk to Me!)} 19:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Worst, deadliest, potato, patato. What I'm trying to say is that you don't just put information like that and have it supported with a source that doesn't even mention the Valhalla crash anywhere (I read it as thoroughly as possible, and I know I didn't see any reference to that previous crash anywhere), let alone say the Philadelphia crash surpassed anything. I agree with the fact that 8 is obviously more than 6 and that the Philadelphia crash has been the deadliest in the country since Valhalla, but if that piece of info is gonna stay, it's gonna need a source that'll verify its legitimacy, otherwise it'll just be anyone's opinion, all because 8 is more than 6. Libertarian12111971 (talk) 19:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, guys, this is a rather silly reason for an edit war. I consider this fact rather trivial; if it is mentioned in the article at all it should be in one of the notes near the end, not in the intro. Daniel Case (talk) 19:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, there's no way one can just support information with a source that DOESN'T EVEN VERIFY ANYTHING. That's what my issue was. Libertarian12111971 (talk) 19:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This review is

transcluded from Talk:Valhalla train crash/GA1

. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mdaniels5757 (talk · contribs) 18:46, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I intend to review this article. This is my first review, so please bear with me :). Mdaniels5757 (talk) 18:47, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No problem at all. Thank you so much for taking up the article!--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 19:04, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mdaniels5757: And I thank you too. Before you start, I'd like the chance to print it out and do a copy edit (something I normally do before a GA nom, but I've had a lot of GA-nominated articles to work on lately and (believe it or not) not as much time as I'd like to have since my son has been home and he wants to share the desktop too, and I have other things to do online as well. So could you give me a couple of days? It'll make your review that much easier since you (hopefully) won't have to point out all the copy problems for us to fix. Daniel Case (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel Case, OK, will do. Ping me whenever. Mdaniels5757 (talk) 20:04, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mdaniels5757: OK, I'm done ... feel free to start your review. Daniel Case (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Generally very good, will offer suggestions below.
	1b. it complies with the list incorporation .
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline .
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	One question, see below.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as audio :
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions .
	7. Overall assessment.

I've mostly completed the review (I just need to finish with the images, which look good so far). Before I sign off, I have a couple of ideas/notes:

1. The crash is the deadliest in Metro-North's history,[1] as well as at the time the deadliest rail accident in the United States since the June 2009 Washington Metro train collision, which killed nine passengers and injured 80.
   • Consider changing to “The crash is the deadliest in Metro-North's history,[1] and at the time was the deadliest rail accident in the United States since the June 2009 Washington Metro train collision, which killed nine passengers and injured 80.”

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 00:41, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. At about 5:30 p.m., 14 minutes after sunset on February 3, 2015,[4] a vehicle…
   • Consider changing to “At about 5:30 p.m. on February 3, 2015, 14 minutes after sunset, a vehicle…” to have the date sooner.

 Done Daniel Case (talk) 00:41, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. Section: “General criticism of grade crossing safety devices”
   • Does this belong here? If so, explain why in the article.

You know, I had been thinking the same thing. Something about this probably should be in the article, but not in this level of detail. I'm going to see how I can condense it and where to mention it. Daniel Case (talk) 06:07, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have decided to make it a "further reading". Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. “Litigation” section
   • I suppose it is fitting that the litigation section is so long (and still going on), but it feels too long to me – is there any way to consolidate it?

I took out a lot of the quotes and detail that I had added when some of the suits and developments had first been reported. How does it look to you now? Daniel Case (talk) 06:33, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. The appeal over the disclosure of Smalls settlement' has been decided, and Metro-North ordered to provide a copy under seal (i.e. confidentially) to the plantiff's lawyers.
   • Citation: {{Cite court|litigants= Jill Shiner Vandercar, etc., et al. v. Metro-North Commuter Railroad, et al. |vol= 178 |reporter= A.D.3d |opinion=931 |court= N.Y. App. Div. 2d Dep’t |date=2019 |url= https://www.leagle.com/decision/innyco20191218424}} → Jill Shiner Vandercar, etc., et al. v. Metro-North Commuter Railroad, et al., 178 A.D.3d 931 (N.Y. App. Div. 2d Dep’t 2019).

-- Mdaniels5757 (talk) 17:15, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Added. Thanks! I hadn't found any news coverage mentioning this! Daniel Case (talk) 06:21, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• OK! All looks good to me, so I'll pass the article shortly! --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 14:42, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Full of sensationalized dramatized insignificant nonsense that presumes the driver of the SUV took stupid actions. I see nothing that can't be explained by her simply panicking and being yet another blameless victim. LETS CLEAN IT UP PEOPLE - this article's state was a disgrace.

@

CapnZapp: Some of your edits make sense, at least superficially. But I don't see the sense of removing the direct perspective of an eyewitness, or taking Alan Brody's name out of it, not when he gets quoted and referred to so much in all the sources (And is it really necessary to be referring to him as "the spouse"? That's trying too hard).

I will have to revert some of your changes. In the future, by the way, please consider a) starting discussions like this on the talk page before you go editing away, and b) avoiding section heds like this. Daniel Case (talk) 18:21, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

It's our call to evaluate "the direct perspective of an eyewitness" as notable enough for inclusion. But I found this particular testimony to be unacceptably slanted - alarming enough to be bold (and skip decorum). If you want to include those parts of the testimony, I would suggest balancing it by a second voice, perhaps a news article discussing how easy it is to panic in these situations, how accidentally missing a gearshift is common or uncommon... or whatever. I'd still ask you to argue why it's important even after we agree on something neutral, though. Personally, I found the easiest fix to be just removing the objectionable parts. The testimony is still there. As for the husband's name - that sources name him is not an argument for us to do so. I see no justification for naming him. (As for "spouse" I guess I got that from the NTSB report. No it isn't necessary.)

CapnZapp (talk) 20:46, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

@

BLPNAME, which turns in large part on whether "the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed." This is true of the paralegal; I do not ocnsider it in any way true of Alan Brody (whose name makes a lot more than "brief appearances" in news stories; I also think he is now very "directly involved" in the article's topic). Daniel Case (talk) 21:32, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

Thank you. I'll respect your informed decision then. As for the general state of the article (at the time of this writing) it's much better - meaning our editorial voice (through the testimony of witnesses) doesn't come across as strongly as blaming the car driver. I still have quibbles, mostly the level of detail re: the pending lawsuits I find inappropriate for the lead. As a final note, I sincerely hope you don't feel personally attacked. It doesn't pay to feel like a primary author even if your activity could justify such a view - keep in mind there's no ownership of Wikipedia articles. Perhaps crudely: since I did not *intend* to make a personal attack, none was made.

CapnZapp (talk) 10:33, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

@

Ownership is bad, yes, but I do not think that should deter us from practicing stewardship of articles, especially those we have invested a lot of personal effort in improving. Perhaps it's easier for me to say and do this because, since unlike so many other people (it seems) I do not set my watchlist to add anything I edit. I have a watchlist of less than 500 articles (mostly) rather than some astronomical four-figure amount, so I can actually do these things. So it may seem a little bit like I'm owning. But the upshot is that I can and do revert vandalism and good-faith additions of unsourced material in the articles that are on my list. Ownership, from this perspective, would be if I reverted every single change, even those made in clear good faith, even those helpful to the article, no matter what, and as you must concede in this case I have not. Daniel Case (talk) 16:49, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

@

MOS:PARA discourages (Indeed that was part of the reason for the quotes originally, I think). I will be finding a way to put all these splinters back together.

He would cut must suture as well. Daniel Case (talk) 16:34, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

Would anybody mind if I lift the protection? Daniel Case (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, since no one objected in most of a month, I have lifted the move protection. Daniel Case (talk) 06:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note f states that LIRR uses under-running third rail, citing to the NTSB report, which does indeed say that. But the NTSB report is incorrect; LIRR uses top-contact third rail, as is visible in the photo at the top of the LIRR article, among many other photos. How should this situation be handled? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:182:CD00:109A:50AF:5DBC:7EC5:1CB9 (talk) 17:46, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, the old problem of what to do when we have correctly cited a reliable source, which turns out to be itself incorrect (there's a project-space page on this somewhere; I can't remember what it's called). At the moment I think the least I/we could do is ask if anyone knows of, or can find, a reliable source to this effect, and put some sort of inline note in the text referring readers to this discussion. Daniel Case (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Belatedly in response to this discussion ... I took that graf out of the LIRR article since I couldn't find a reliable source. Plenty of forums say this, and I agree the pictures of the LIRR show an overrunning third rail, but ... that's not enough.

I will amend the note appropriately ... probably just take it out, or take the LIRR out. Daniel Case (talk) 05:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]