Talk:Verteba Cave

Verteba Cave is currently a Geography good article nominee. Nominated by – TCMemoire at 18:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC) An editor has indicated a willingness to review the article in accordance with the good article criteria. Further reviews are welcome from any editor who has not contributed significantly to this article (or nominated it), and can be added to the review page, but the decision whether or not to list the article as a good article should be left to the first reviewer. Short description: Gypsum cave system in Bilche-Zolote, Ukraine

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A fact from Verteba Cave appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 11 April 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that 28 Jews hid in Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/April. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Verteba Cave .

This review is

transcluded from Talk:Verteba Cave/GA1

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Nominator: TCMemoire (talk · contribs) 18:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Esculenta (talk · contribs) 18:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks interesting! Will have comments up here within a few days. Please let me know if you are intending to take this article to FAC; if so, I could prove more thorough commentary (if you want). Otherwise I'll stick to assessing the

@Esculenta: Although this my first GAN (despite being here for 10 years!) and I've not even considered it could go to FA, I love picky feedback so the more you want to give the merrier. No pressure though! – TCMemoire 19:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've had my first readthrough. My impressions are ... it's quite informative and well-written! Here are some suggestions and nitpicks for your perusal:

Lead

• The MoS suggests that we avoid linking consecutive words together (
  MOS:SEAOFBLUE), but's there's a triple in the lead sentence ("a karstic gypsum cave "). How about instead "a karstic cave formed in gypsum
  ," and either unlink the common word "cave" or save the link for the following sentence.
• link prehistoric, artefact
• "have been found with injuries consistent with being intentionally killed" suggest tweak "have been found bearing injuries consistent with being intentionally killed" (avoid duplicate & close "with")
• the lead seems a bit short on details relative to the length of the article. How about mentioning the unique geological formation of the cave, and its status as a habitat for endangered bat species?

• links: excavations; maybe History of the Jews in Ukraine might be a better targeted link than the current unspecific one?
• are there any more words that could be said about who Jan Khmeletsky was, and if anything interesting notable between 1822 and 1876?

Geology

• link sedimentary rock; Stratigraphically; deposits; prehistory
• it should be made more clear that the given length of 8km is "the combined length of all passageways inside the cave"
• Because Eastern European Platform and the Carpathian Foredeep are redlinks, perhaps the text could give a short gloss or explanation as to what these are.
• maybe a short gloss of "transverse artesian flow", e.g. "(when water under pressure moves sideways through permeable rock layers, potentially carving out underground channels")
• how about putting the mya parenthetically to save some clicks for readers like me who haven't memorized the timescale of the epochs?
• does Clastic rock need to be capitalised?

Archaeology

• links: ceramics; anthropomorphic; zoomorphic; stone tool; dugout; hearth; sherd; artefact; Neolithic Europe; Isotopic analysis; ritualistic; medieval
• "Kraków Archaeological Museum of Archaeology" -> Archaeological Museum of Kraków
• "Several different groups from the Cucuteni–Trypillian culture occupied the cave at different times. These periods of occupation fall within three distinct cultural horizons within this culture:" 3x "culture/al" is a bit too much
• I notice that both the CI and CII cultural horizons, and the Koshylovetska and Kasperivska ceramic typologies overlap; is this intentional?
• who are the Branzeni?
• "The Kasperivska material displays Funnelbeaker and Baden cultural influence, and cord impressions and distinct rim cuts tie the Verteba Cave ceramics into a widely distributed pattern of Anatolian and Balkan influence stretching as far as modern-day Poland." this sentence is dense in archaeological terminology. Might I suggest tweaking the prose for a more straightforward presentation, viz. "The Kasperivska artifacts show influences from the Funnelbeaker and Baden cultures, evident in the unique patterns and shapes cut into the rims of the ceramics. These styles, along with designs pressed into the clay with cords, link the pottery found in Verteba Cave to similar styles seen across a large area that includes Anatolia, the Balkans, and reaches as far as modern-day Poland."
• "…occupied the cave for a period of about 803 years…" the estimate seem unusually precise for an archaeological context, especially considering that carbon dating has a standard error ranging from ±25 years to several centuries.
• "BCE displays ties to the Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures, displaying a more" displays …displaying

Extra thoughts

• How about including the floor area & capacity of the cave? (Kadrow & Potkutta p.1)
• I found it interesting that human teeth recovered from the Verteba Cave have been used to assess the oral health impacts of the transition to agriculture on the Tripolye culture, demonstrating that this shift was associated with a significant increase in dental caries compared to earlier hunter-fisher-gatherer groups in the region. source Worthy of inclusion?

• I read the Ukrainian version (Ukr) of the same article to compare the information presentation in the two language versions. Some takeaways:

• Historical and Archaeological Importance:

• Ukr specifically designates Verteba Cave as a geological and archaeological site of national significance, highlighting its formal status.
• Ukr contains detailed historical narratives about the discovery and subsequent archaeological explorations not fully covered in the English version. This includes stories about the initial exploration and significant findings from different archaeological periods.

• Length of the Cave: Ukr provides a specific length for the cave's underground passages (9021 meters), which differs slightly from the English version (8555 meters). It also mentions variability in the reported lengths.
• Cultural and Historical Details:

• Ukr mentions the cave being declared a part of the natural reserve by the Council of Ministers of the Ukrainian SSR in 1971 and by the Cabinet Ministers of Ukraine in 1992, which emphasizes the cave's conservation history.
• Ukr mentions that in 2018, an ancient oven-bed (a combination of an oven and a sleeping platform, common in many ancient and traditional dwellings across Eastern Europe) was discovered. This finding, according to Mikhailo Sokhatsky, indicated that the Trypillian people may have stayed in the cave not temporarily, as many scholars previously thought, but for extended periods, suggesting suggests a more permanent and complex use of the cave than what might have been understood from earlier research.

• Conservation and Modern Use: Ukr talks about the conservation efforts and how the cave is currently part of the national natural park "Dniester Canyon." There's also mention of a sport speleological route for well-prepared visitors.
• Zoological info: the Ukr mention of bat populations and their protection status is a bit more detailed; also, four species of bats that inhabit the cave are listed as protected in the Red Book of Ukraine

• The current lead image is from 2006; a 2017 photo shows that there is now a pathway leading to the entrance.

There's no obligation to include any of this extra stuff, as I think the article currently is pretty close to meeting the "broadness" criterion for GA, but I place it here for your consideration. Esculenta (talk) 04:53, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]