Talk:Yosef Ben-Jochannan

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I deleted the two edits made by 72.155.216.76 besides being biased and poorly sourced they are also plagiarized from the Afrocentric web site http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/ben.html . Wlmg (talk) 20:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another example of a person who is not Afro-Puerto Rican. Ben-Jochannan is not Afro-Puerto Rican because Afro-Puerto Ricans are black people from Puerto Rico, not children of African-Americans, Somalian, Chad or any other group, who happen to marry a non-black Puerto Rican. Apparently, among several non-academic Wikipedia editors, African-American implies that one is black, but Afro dash anything else implies that one is mixed with something. For example, Afro-Venezuelan does not mean the child of an American black with a Venezuelan, it means blacks from Venezuela. Afro-Peruvian, Afro-Brazilian and Afro-Cuban mean the same thing: black people from their respective countries. See the article on Afro-Cuban for more information. For an example of an Afro-Puerto Rican, see the page on Sylvia del Villard. I have made the necessary correction to remove Ben-Jochannan's dubious inclusion on the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noopinonada (talk • contribs) 02:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page has to be put in context. His birthplace and parents have never been confirmed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.185.205 (talk) 07:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Ben is on the record of obfuscating the truth and lying about history. If his biography is filled with unverified statements he and others have made about his life then in some odd way it is apropos. This article can be improved with hard facts, but that is difficult because there are so few surrounding Dr. Ben. Wlmg (talk) 15:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Ben is a miraculous man. He managed to get his BS in Civil Engineering at the University of Puerto Rico four years before the department was opened. Congratulations, Dr Ben! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.137.10.75 (talk) 11:44, 15 September 2010 (UTC) What proof do you have of this comment?[reply]

I wish you would have left the comment in the discussion section of the Josef article instead of my talk page, but that's ok. The main problem in my view is that Josef has been caught lying about so many things that it calls into question most anything and everything about him, especially the claims he has made about himself. Some of them quite frankly seem fishy, i.e. if he earned degrees in engineering, then why is there no history of him ever working as an engineer? The credibility problem is of his own creation. There are not a lot sources on him to make the hard referential links that make a good wikipedia article. Mainly I defend that article from vandalism, because it is alternately filled up with non-NPOV material typically plaigiarized from ethnocentric sources, or the few properly sourced sections are deleted that the ethnocentrists apparently do not like to hear. I will put this posting in the talk section of the Yosef article, as well as what you put on my talk page.

"Hello Wlmg:

I noticed your revert on the article Yosef Ben-Jochannan where you changed 'formally educated' back to 'claims to have been educated'.

I'm posting here because I'm interested to learn more about this unusual article.

I'm curious how large a credibility gap Yosef Ben-Jochannan has developed to have the article say 'claims to have been educated' and 'claims to be the son of'.

It seems to me there is sort of a double requirement for sources in order to say someone "claims to be ABC". A source to verify that the person has made the claim and also a source that casts serious doubt on the claim. If someone claims to be ABC and there is nothing that throws doubt on that claim, the normal wording would be (I think) that "they are ABC", not that "they claim to be ABC". (Ie, assuming good faith unless there is contradicting evidence.)

The reference says he misrepresents himself as an Egyptologist. Nothing about his ethnic heritage.

As I say, I'm curious about this.

Any light you can throw on the matter would be appreciated.

Cheers CBHA (talk) 05:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)"[reply]

Wlmg (talk) 18:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wlmg: Thank you very much for the feedback. CBHA (talk) 22:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eighteen children, forty-nine books - I wonder how this mircacle man was able to produce such a heap of literature while being busy enlarging the human species at the same time. By the way, let's not forget the two (or three or four?) doctoral degrees, notably the one from the University of Barcelona, which was totally bombshelled by Franco's troops in 1938 and reopened in 1946, whhen Dr. Dr. Dr. Ben was already working hard - at the Malcolm King College (New York) and UNESCO (Paris) - at the same time. Did he have a super-jet or the gift of bilocality (being at two different places at the same time)? This man is a legend - in the truest sense of the word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.164.192.11 (talk) 07:09, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, folks, but there has never been an African Studies Committee at the UNESCO headquarters, and even if it had existed, nobody could have presided it in 1945, because the headquarters were not opened before 1946. Nobody there showed any commitment to African culture in those post-war years, and so there cannot have been any Dr Dr Dr Dr Ben residing at the desk. Only in 1964 did UNESCO decide to establish a Scientific Committee, which was designed to prepare the “Genereal History of Africa”. Among the chair people were renowned African historians like the late Adu Boahen, but again no trace of the ubiquitous Dr Ben. How is that if he still chaired the African desk in those years – according to his personal version of his stupendous biography? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.164.211.113 (talk) 10:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am adding a POV tag to this article because I believe that it's biased against Ben-Johannan's work, which many believe to be true. Peace. —MuzikJunky (talk) 10:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How is the article non-neutral POV? You don't say how it's biased against Dr. Ben's work. Many believe his work to be true but many do not. Citations have been deleted. That article has been vandalized and currently has no citations. I intend to restore all the citations and completely revamp the article. Wlmg (talk) 08:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There were too many uses of “allegedly” and “claims that he [did so-and-so].” However, these were eliminated in a recent edit, and the article is much less biased than it was before, so I think it’s time to remove the POV tag. Peace. —MuzikJunky (talk) 20:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC) Agreed Wlmg (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see some Dr. Ben fan came to make this page more "accurate." lol The truth is that most of Dr. Ben's claims, espeically those related to his origins and education, are false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.9.139 (talk) 08:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC) Wikipedia is about verifiablity through secondary sources, if you can find sources debunking Dr. Ben's claims please feel free to contribute them.Wlmg (talk) 18:34, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Due to Mr. Ben-Jochannan's irrelevancy there is hardly anything written about him, outside of the hardcore acolytes that consist of his 8-member fan club.

However, Ben-Jochannan has claimed that he was born in Gondar, Ethiopia, to a black Puerto Rican woman and a black Falasha Jew man. The odds of this happening in 1918 are extremely slim, considering that black Puerto Ricans (especially women) probably had very little opportunity to travel to the highlands of Ethiopia, and the Falasha are rather insular group that would have discouraged this sort of union ever taking place.

All of Ben-Jochannan's educational credentials are from institutions in Spain and the Caribbean, he hasn't mentioned the years of supposed graduations, but I recall reading that he arrived in New York City in 1945, making him 26-27 year old with two doctorates and a law degree?! He's lived in New York ever since. Back then educational opportunities for blacks were not as abundant as today, so he'd definitely have been on many papers, being such a wunderkid and all...

Also, "Ben-Jochannan" is not a very typical name associated with the Falasha. He has mentioned having grown up in the US Virgin Islands. I wonder what act of God brought the Falasha man, the black Puerto Rican chick and the future Dr. Ben from Gondar to Virgin Islands... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.9.139 (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also2, Ben-Jochannan looks NOTHING like we'd expect a person of Falasha and black Puerto Rican (with possibly some Spanish blood) origin to look like. He looks like any Caribbean descendant of a West African slave, however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.9.139 (talk) 02:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You neglected to say the black Puerto Rican chick was Jewish. ;) Wlmg (talk) 03:03, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "Doctor" Ben is quite a good example of a total fraud type, but I'm a bit surpirsed by the assertion that black Puerto Ricans should look different with "Spanish blood." Those of us Puerto Ricans that are black are black, simply put. As in West and Central African descent. A lot of us are mixed, and a lot of us are not. I find it to be a silly assertion that we should look different because of the origin of the slave master. I suppose the Spanish, as Europeans, had more examples of brunette hair over blond, but a "look" certainly does not exist among us (afroboricuas) as compared to black people elsewhere. Regardless, this page has poor cites and an obvious fan club. If this historical revisionist wonderboy Dr. Ben is a black Jewish, Ethiopian, Virgin Islands Falasha, then rejoice my fellow editors because I am Santa and fantastic gifts will be delivered via fireplaces in 2 weeks to all my Wikipedia brethren. As a native Spanish speaker, I especially love his assertions about having doctorates from Spain. I chuckled quite hard. It's truly sad to know this racist goof was employed in a university at one time. Cordialmente, --Noopinonada (talk) 02:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that the part about "the Craft of Amen-Ra" should be included, as it does not seem to be a real fraternity or Masonic organization, nor is it encyclopedic information. This "Craft" seems to include Dr. Ben, his follower Ashra Kwesi and a number of African-Americans who participated in one of Dr. Ben's Egypt tours. I doubt that the group has ever met since. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.237.222.1 (talk) 19:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

IP I have examined this matter in the past, but unfortunately the discussion is on some talk page somewhere. From what I been able to gather Dr. Ben was attempting to resurrect an ancient version of masonry. http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56846 You can also check citation 42 here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_York#cite_note-41 ", 360 degrees of physical (understanding) and 360 degrees of spiritual (overstanding), the Supreme Grand Hierophant of the Ancient Egiptian Order." Wlmg (talk) 20:18, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad the Craft of Amen-Ra bit was removed from this page. Some genius tried to justify its inclusion by posting a link to some writing by "Dwight York," another black American with a made up personal history and fantastical self-promotions.

Ben-Jochannan's educational history is still unclear. Just because some website such as historymakers.com posts an alleged educational history, it doesn't mean that it's true. I could buy a domain called drbensmagnificientadventures.com and claim there that he has 5 Ph.D.'s from Harvard. Would it be encyclopedic information and pass Wikipedia's standards?

Here's what I claim about "Dr." Ben and my claims can be just as true as any that is posted on some black fantasy website. 1. Ben-Jochannan is a West Indian-born amateur historian. 2. Ben-Jochannan does not hold any doctoral degrees from any university. 3. Ben-Jochannan does not have an ounce of Jewish DNA. 4. Ben-Jochannan's father was not a Falasha Jew from Ethiopia nor was Ben-Jochannan himself born in Gondar, Ethiopia.

Has anybody read any of Ben-Jochannan's books? Here's a link to one of "Dr." Ben's masterpieces: http://www.lojsociety.org/Cultural_Genocide_Yossef_Ben_Jochannan.pdf It's a mish mash collection of fantastical claims put together by a four-year old. Compare that with any historical works from any serious authors and you'll see a BIG difference. It's actually sad that some blacks venerate Dr. Ben. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.82.153 (talk) 22:40, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Update: NY Times had a new article about Ben-Jochannan. www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/nyregion/contested-legacy-of-dr-ben-a-father-of-african-studies.html?_r=1 It's starting to look like "Dr." Ben used fake credentials to land his academic posts. So now he studied at Cambridge too? Also, according to the article, Ben-Jochannan's background is questioned even by a family member... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.64.82.153 (talk) 19:26, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Google is not relevant , the R.S needs to be in this article, currently the link is DEAD, not to mention the question of reliability. Please discuss before removing another authors tags. Tags means something is WRONG, we use a talk page to discuss and then agree and then remove them if appropriate.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:25, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The link isn't dead as of five minutes ago. Must be server problem.--Wlmg (talk) 16:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is working now, but it wasn't on the two separate occasions that I tried it. The site doesn't look very reliable but maybe it is just out-dated design. I honestly think this is not factual and i think more sources will be required. Is there any evidence of these languages? Good thing he is still alive so some deeper research will tell us more.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 18:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it's not a fantastic source. As for it being factual I have no comment. i.e. teaching at Malcolm King college. My own research turned up that this was a program that existed briefly in the 70s at City College and he certainly wouldn't have taught there in 1950 before Martin Luther King and Malcolm X had been memorialized in any fashion. So that would be one anachronism. You want to change things around note well that this article has a third rail. --Wlmg (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just read the comments above and see the same issues I am saying. It is very unlikely considering his physical appearance and the time period as the above person states. I was stating that then deleted my own comment. I think I am not the only one seeing these things. People of Gonder look very distinctive. U cant miss them for even being Kenyan. I think more research will prove this entire man is suspect.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 19:42, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well good luck. I gave up trying to debunk the man and figured I could do a better job formatting the article than his supporters. If you can't beat 'em join 'em. In any case lots of pov pushing in this article. Maybe we could get an expert to write an article in the real world to address the glaring inconsistencies in his life story, and curriculum vita. --Wlmg (talk) 19:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just googled the degree he had and he is the only one in that has this degree. the info is copied and copied and pasted everywhere his name is mentioned. there are no sources just the lies repeated. I want to be neutral and my problem is really only with that which is CLEARLY not true. I know he didn't speak Geez (only priest use it NO way did he spoke Ge'ez which is a dead language used in religion) . A popular Caribbean trend at that time was (because of Garvey) to claim to be Ethiopian.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 20:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You could rip it down to a stub. The only confirm-able info is his adjunct professorship at Cornell, his writings, his son's death, and the Mary Lefkowitz affair.--Wlmg (talk) 20:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is still a need for the dubious tags because he said a lot of things. there was a time when many said they were Ancient Egytians etc. Does not make it so because someone wants to add notability to their name. Even SELF PUB (i am not too sure the history makers is a selfpub sourced). But beyond his work, He claim to speak Arabic (he cannot), and read (hyro) evident from his books, he cannot. His Ethiopian origin is seriously dubious regardless of if he said it. The names do not match Falasha names, nothing adds up. Re self Pub the material is not unduly self-serving; it does not involve claims about third parties; it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source; there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; the article is not based primarily on such sources. This myth history is always used to discredit other good work people have done. I think we services wiki by holding a higher standard. So the reader gets the truth. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 23:19, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The new source is not History Makers but a video interview done with Dr. Ben here: Dr. Ben states his Ethiopian heritage--Wlmg (talk) 01:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah that would be better, but i think we should word it in a way to reflect the dubious issue, if we want to get rid of the tags, because as per above he has made many claims. And personally I would rather the article focus on more about his work and conclusions than be brought down by what everyone knows is a fabricated legacy. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 07:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just watched the video, and it only confirms the list of lies to support more lies. Even the guy in the interview seems to suspect its ridiculous accusations "What did your father look like", "How did you get from Ethiopia to Caribbean." He also said his Mother people are Jews from Yemen, it gets better the more I listen. The problem is in the 80's you could just about get away with this stuff.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 07:30, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article's lede says, "according to him he was born in Gonder, Ethiopia),". As you well know wikipedia stresses verifiability over accuracy. It is up to the reader to take it for what it's worth. "Own biographical sketches" is also a disclaimer. As for the interviewer Gil Noble often uses a Devil's Advocate style in his interviews. He is not impugning Dr. Ben's credibility, but rather emphasizing just how incredible a life Dr. Ben has lived. He has interviewed Dr. Ben many times, and even made a documentary with Dr. Ben documenting the African-made monuments in Egypt. The article and talk page are not the places to debunk his personal life details. Perhaps one day someone will track down his birth certificate etc.. and do a complete expose on him. However, I highly doubt that will ever occur. Wlmg (talk) 21:53, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dropped a 4im (Final Warning) onto the IP's talk page; if they keep vandalizing the article please report them to WP:ARV Melody Concerto^talk 08:12, 12 July 2015 (UTC) Regardless of his dubious background, "Dr. Ben" represented on of the last of a breed of Black nationalist "scholars" who preached from ladders on 125th Street in Harlem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.83.99.75 (talk) 13:32, 2 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From the same NYT source ( https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/nyregion/contested-legacy-of-dr-ben-a-father-of-african-studies.html )

• "But there is little evidence for that other than his own word"
• "Most accounts agree that wherever he was born, Mr. Ben-Jochannan was raised in the Caribbean and moved to New York City around 1940."

—PaleoNeonate – 04:51, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]