User talk:Diakonias

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This is Diakonias's talk page. Diakonias (talk) 10:03, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Diakonias! Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Wikipedia and get help from peers and experienced editors. I hope to see you there! Ryan Vesey (I'm a Teahouse host) talk) 20:41, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply ]

Your article on the

PS: The same holds true for United Covenant Churches of Christ: you seem to think that there is some link between these organizations, but you appear to be unable to identify what the link is. From what you have written, it appears that the United Pentecostal Churches of Christ organization may have undergone a split from which the United Covenant Churches of Christ and the Pentecostal Churches of Christ organizations emerged, but you are unable to verify this fact or to provide any details about it. Until you can find out what actually happened through reliable sources, I would refrain from attempts to link these two organizations. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:56, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello WikiDan61. I have now re-worked all three articles, with a view to addressing your points/concerns. Diakonias (talk) 19:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Diakonias. This message is being sent to inform you that a discussion is taking place at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is United Pentecostal Churches of Christ. Thank you. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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• Covenant". The full text of the pamphlet can be downloaded at www.envisager.net/pdf/broch_uccc.pdf)</ref>

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• ]. He regarded encouraging or supporting the abdication of the King as an act of [high treason]].

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• ]. He regarded encouraging or supporting the abdication of the King as an act of [high treason]].
• Further consecrations (conditional and/or mutual (cross-) consecrations:

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• the Bishops Prazsky<ref>Archbishop William Andrew Prazsky and his father Bishop Anthony Prazsky)</ref> (Slaavic Orthodox lineage), from Bishop Gaines<ref>Bishop James Andrew Gaines (Mar Jacobus)</

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• is that there is a line of succession via Newman from Church of England archbishops of Canterbury (and therefore stretching back in English history at least as far back as St [[Augustine of

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• Hedley Coward Bartlett (Mar Hedley) who on 20 May 1945 consecrated [Hugh George de Willmott Newman]] (Mar Georgius) who on 13 April 1952 consecrated Charles Dennis Boltwood who on 3 May 1959
• is that there is a line of succession via Newman from Church of England archbishops of Canterbury (and therefore stretching back in English history at least as far back as St [[Augustine of

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Masbrough Independent Chapel, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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• by his cousin Mar Georgius, assisted by two other bishops, Bishop Smethurst and Bishop Raoult. (Mar Seraphim I was primus from 1979; he seceded and led much of the UK branch of the church into

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I'll post the text

here shortly. I'll be happy to take a look when it's ready if you want me to Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

I made these edits. Some comments

• You need to say in the lead why he is notable enough for an article. At present it just says he is a Christian pastor, that's not enough to justify an encycopaedia entry, there are thousands of ministers out there.
• Having a whole section on how he should be addressed is trivial and is so deferential as to amount to spam
• You could improve the look of your references. I've tweaked 1 and 7 as examples.
• Some of your references are more like commentaries, and I'd use note format for that. See European storm petrel, which has a note section, for how to format. It's a featured article too, so may be worth looking at the presenation of the refs
• Some of your refs are both too vague and too wordy, eg Source: the APC's 2013 ordinal booklet doesn't need "source", but doea need authour, title, publisher and page number(s)
• Use prose instead of lists where possible
• You write extensively about his views, yet don't give basic facts like his date and place of birth, his nationality,when he came to the UK, if he wasn't born here, where he was educated or his qualifications
• I've moved the facts about him to before his views

Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:18, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen your message, but I can see you are still editing, so I'll comment later/tomorrow Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Further edits. I've moved his parents' names out of notes, you might want to do the same with the people who were involved in his consecration

The "Views" section presents his views without comment. Chruch leaders usually manage to upset somene, any controversies or criticisms to balance what appears to be an uncritical presentation of his opinions?

Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:05, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The comment on User:Philroc's talk page indicates that this rollback was accidental, so I've restored the text. In general, though, you should bear in mind that anyone can edit an article as long as they can reference their contributions. WOT indicates that there are safety issues with Nigerian village square commenting "fake domains redirecting to pay-per-click scam sites", so you may want to consider whether the site is safe to use — up to you. Otherwise looks OK, Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:06, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You recreate the article using the "move" button (don't cut and paste). It's a basic principle of Wikipedia that as much as possible is viewable by everyone, the main exception being deleted articles. Admins can hide selected history edits, but that is only done for grossly unacceptable vandalism or to hide personal information. There is no problem with having many edits, it shows that you have worked on it and not just copied it from somewhere. Let me know if you have problems Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:45, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: There is further talk regarding this matter on the Wikipedia Help Desk talk pages in relation to article Doye Agama. Diakonias (talk) 00:28, 26 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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The article Apostolic Episcopal Church has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Per

WP:BOLLOCKS. The only reference provided is their website, and I found no evidence of third-party coverage on the internet. The so-called "Primate" of this "Church" apparently also claims to be the exiled Tsar of Belarus, according to his website--which would render anything on "AEC" website highly dubious. The "Church" is apparently headquartered in this man's house, according to the references provided. Retired User:L.R. Wormwood

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. 2001:630:212:DE0:FD30:3FCA:C63:CE93 (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RESPONSE: The Apostolic Episcopal Church has a history going back to the 1920s/1930s, founded by Arthur Wolfort Brooks (who lived 1888 to 1948). The AEC has a significant place in the story of the development of independent episcopal churches. Further, from the 1930s onwards, the AEC and its Primates have been linked with the Order of Corporate Reunion. A fairly brief search revealed that the AEC is referenced in the book "The Apostolic Succession and the Catholic Episcopate in the Christian Episcopal Church of Canada" by Robert David Redmile (bishop of Richmond, British Colombia), published 2006. The UK's National Archives website (discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk) lists a letter written in 1948 from the then Primate of AEC Arthur Wolfort Brooks to the author HRT Brandreth (a noted author on the subject of independent episcopacy and episcopi vagantes) and identifies the letter as being held in the Lambeth Palace Library (i.e. the library of the official residence of the Archbishop of Canterbury). Many years ago there was AW Brooks's own book "The Apostolic Episcopal Church". The AEC is listed by the Association of Religious Data Archives (thearda.com) and for example they state that in 1935 it had 23 clergy, 19 churches and 7892 members, and in 2006 225 clergy, 200 churches and 12000 members. Anglicans Online (anglicansonline.com) identify AEC as a church not in membership of the Anglican Communion. encyclopedia.com lists the AEC among the "Independent and Old Catholic Churches". ecumenism.net lists the AEC as an "independent episcopal church". Many organisations that are run mainly or wholly by unpaid volunteers have their office address at the home of one of their leading office-bearers. The fact that the AEC is now rum from John Kersey's home, that does not negate its long history nor does it disqualify the organisation from meriting an wikipedia entry. There may be facilities at his home for holding small meetings, conferences etcetera. Retired User L.R. Wormwood will not be alone in feeling concerns about some of the claims John Kersey makes for himself, perhaps including his claim to be an adopted son of the exiled former ruler of Belarus, and therefore now the successor to the Title. Let these claims be stated, in a neutral point-of-view way, and thereby give readers opportunity to form their own decisions about the present-day Apostolic Episcopal Church, and without denying them the significant story of the organisation's origins and past-history. I readily agree the wiki article needed improving, but I don't consider that an article on the AEC should be permanently absent from wikipedia. I request request access please to the deleted 2018 article, with the aim of improving it and then offering it in amended and improved form for reinstatement. User: Diakonias 29 June 2020

This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

I request access please to the deleted article "Apostolic Episcopal Church" (deleted 2018). Reason: I wish to re-work this article with a view to improving it. I shall take full account of the comments that have been made. Above, I have explained why I consider there should be a wiki article on this organisation. User: Diakonias 29 June 2020

(Non-administrator comment) First, if you have any

conflict of interest

, whether paid or unpaid, please disclose it on your userpage.

Wikipedia's criteria for a standalone article state the subject must have significant coverage from multiple independent reliable sources. What you've mentioned so far fail some part of the criteria: letters and books from anyone affiliated with the church are not independent; listings, even from sources with editorial oversight, are not significant coverage. No amount of editing can change this. Perhaps the subject will meet the criteria someday, but as it is, AEC does not qualify for a standalone article and would likely be deleted at Articles for Deletion (AfD). I suggest that instead of making a request at

WP:REFUND, you find an existing article on a related subject and add a well-sourced (multiple independent sources with editorial oversight) section on AEC. If you find enough sources, you can use Articles for Creation to split it into a separate article. If not, then you know this doesn't qualify for a standalone article without having to go through AfD. Hope that helped! Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 18:13, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply

]

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Many thanks for the update of this article. I hadn't heard it had closed. I will do some more digging for any other information and will make some more tweaks to the article. Sadly this is the second recent closure of a United Reformed church building in this part of Surrey, following Leatherhead last year. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 13:23, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• ... and the first thing I found during my "digging" is that the United Reformed church at nearby Epsom has also closed down, and services are suspended indefinitely at the church in nearby Ewell. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 13:33, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  As I drove along Queens Road at the weekend, I saw that the noticeboards had been removed. This prompted me to do a bit of research. I found that the October 2022 Newsletter of St Andrew's Walton gives information about the formal merging of the Walton and Weybridge churches on 1 Jan 2022 and indicates that the final church-service at Weybridge was on a date during August 2022. The first Cong church in the Walton/Weybridge area was, I think, at Hersham. The URC there (Hersham) was re-built (not the first re-build) in 1977 as Trinity United Reformed Church (also on Queens Road). Opened (1977, or possibly '78)) by Canon FW Dillistone (CofE). Sad to say, this church closed quiet some years ago now. During my visit to Surrey this weekend I also found that the Thames Ditton church at Speer Road appears to be closed as a URC, though (happily) it is clearly still in use as a place of Christian worship (King's Church, Kingston). I am surprised and also very sad to learn from you that Leatherhead and Epsom have closed too. If I remember correctly, when I visited them to preach there (late 1970s or early 1980s), they had quite large congregations. However, tempus fugit, and things change. I could cry my heart out over what is happening to the United Reformed Church. My reason for visiting Surrey this weekend was to officiate at a funeral service at Whiteley Village. Although this was a funeral of a Free Church person, it had to be held in the Anglican church (St Mark's) building, as the Free Church building (a lovely building) called "The Sanctuary" closed as a place of worship some years back, and is turned-over to secular use. Happily, the Village's Free Church community does continue, but meeting in a room within one of the secular buildings of the Village. Diakonias Diakonias (talk) 16:21, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Postscript: It would appear that the now combined Walton/Weybridge church probably still has control of the buildings at Queens Road Weybridge buildings. The reason I say this is that the church's website is showing an email address specifically for people wanting to hire the Weybridge church halls. Diakonias Diakonias (talk) 17:00, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's good to hear that the fine chapel and its halls will still be available for community use. I hadn't heard about Thames Ditton, but a bit of research tells me it finally closed in summer 2021. I hope its new congregation will be able to make it their home: it is a lovely building. Bookham, Dorking, Woking and Guildford still seem to be going strong. I hope Epsom URC doesn't end up being demolished, espeically after the sad loss of the Methodist chapel at Guildford a few years ago, which was a similar good-quality 1960s chapel. I think the original Independent/Congregational chapel at Hersham was very early 19th-century. Had it survived beyond the 1960s it probably would be listed now. I think there's a petrol station on the site now...! Here in Sussex the URC seems to be faring better: I can only recall a couple of closures in recent years, and most towns of any size (and even some villages) still have a chapel. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 23:58, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At Thames Ditton long ago, this then-young then-lay preacher found himself preaching to a congregation among whom there was a QC and also to a peer of the Realm !! (Keith Goodfellow, and the Lord Lloyd of Killigerran (spelling ?) respectively). Woking, as I recall, had two churches. At one of them, I heard Bishop Lesslie Newbigin speak. There was also the tiny (and long-gone) West Byfleet, which is a district of Woking. Guildford also had two churches, the main Guildford church and Westborough. At Westborough, there was a central pulpit behind the Communion Table. One hot summer evening, in the middle of my sermon, a cat wandered in at the back, slowly wended its way among the seats, and then down the central aisle, and jumped up onto the Communion Table where it remained for some time, looking-up inquisitively at this preacher. The Congregational History Society's magazine has dropped through my letterbox within the last couple of days. Within its pages, Martin Camroux writes: "How do you celebrate fifty years of a Church whose very purpose was to go out of existence, and is now in calamitous decline ? For someone for whom organic Christian unity was part of the passion of youth, like me, the fiftieth Anniversary of the United Reformed Church is problematic". He goes on to say that David Peel has warned that "without a narrative that is intellectually sustainable the URC will cease to be". And Camroux goes on to write that at this present time the URC is a Church that "looks rather like a dead man walking". Regarding the formation of the URC, he writes that "We chose institutional unity at a time when the culture was becoming uninterested in institutions, with people perfectly happy to move from one denomination to another, uncaring of the distinctions". Anyway, be all that as it may (I'll refrain from commenting !!!), I'm pleased to hear that in Sussex the URC seems to be faring better !! Thanks be to God for that. Does your wiki-name Hassocks indicate that you have a link with the town or village of that name. If so, do you remember a Minister whose surname was London, or maybe my memory as to names and locations is letting me down. Diakonias 9 Nov 2022 Diakonias (talk) 19:09, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful stories! In my position as Honorary Editor of The Chapels Society, I've featured some articles this year on the 50th anniversary, including one which makes some of the same points as Martin's article (I read it, or a version of it, somewhere else earlier this year: possibly on the URC History Society website?). I am Hassocks born and bred (although now living in Hove), so I'm familiar with the URC church in the centre of the village. It was started in the 1880s as a non-denominational mission hall, but was soon taken under the oversight of the main Congregational church at Brighton and became Congregational. I noticed when doing some research for something else that it recently (within the last 2 years) ceased to be a standalone church, as it were, and became part of a joint pastorate with Burgess Hill and Haywards Heath. I suspect this may be, or become, more widespread elsewhere. I'm not familiar with the history of the church other than that (I am a member of a different denomination), so I don't recognise the name, but I think I've seen a published history of the church somewhere which might give more details. I'll have to look for it: I'd quite like to know more! One interesting thing that has happened in Sussex, or at least the central and eastern parts, is that the Methodist and United Reformed churches now work together in a common "United Area", basically a combination of a Circuit and a local division of a Synod, which seems to have been quite successful in keeping even the smaller chapels thriving. Quite a few have formally come together as united churches or LEPs, admittedly. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 16:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]