User talk:FiachraByrne/Archive 4

Hi. The url for the second citation generator on your list, the one I find most useful, has been updated. http://diberri.crabdance.com/cgi-bin/templatefiller/index.cgi? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:18, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Anthony, that's most useful. FiachraByrne (talk) 10:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, a question because it'll bug me otherwise. One of your more recent comments at paraphilic infantilism states that you see infantilism as a subtype of masochism. You've made other comments where you appear to think it's a behaviour seen in masochists. Could you clarify if it's one or the other, or something different? Thanks,

_complex 11:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

What's the significance of the distinction? Does one imply that (subtype) that it is exclusive to Sexual Masochism? I dunno. Looking at what sources I can find Money says that 'it may be adjunctive to masochism' whereas as Laws and O'Donoghue say that it 'is classified as masochism in DSM-IV'; for Getzfeld it's simply an example of masochism and for Lippincott Williams and Wilkins it is 'another form of sexual masochism' (also see here). The APA regard it as a 'variation' of masochism.

Subtype is not supported I think. Therefore, the phrase 'a form of' or equivalent is preferred.

Obviously, this all only really relates to the DSM classification - as you know others look on it as a form of OCD, simply a paraphilia, an aspect of GID, etc.FiachraByrne (talk) 11:56, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, so a further question then - would you support using the DSM to define it as a subtype of masochism, or would you use another source to do so? And if you would use the DSM, would then support taking statements made about masochism and treating them as if they applied to infaintilism directly? I see the latter as

_complex 13:54, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

Um no. I initially used subtype just to mean it was a discrete form of masochism. I never thought of the implications of calling it a subtype and it's still not clear to me. The secondary sources, including the DSM do not call it a subtype. Therefore I don't think the article should call it a subtype but rather a form or variation of masochism. Such as The DSM considers infantilism as a form of Sexual Masochism - then cite the DSM and then cite all these interpretations of the DSM. FiachraByrne (talk) 14:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh, I still don't think we should say the DSM calls it a subtype of masochism (though Laws & O'Donnohue say it does, then immediately go on to disagree with this characterization!). It seems to me that there are two streams within infantilism, one that fetishizes the nurturing and caring aspects of being a baby (what Pate & Goddard's case study discusses), and one that thrives on the humiliation of being treated like a baby. Unfortunately I can't think of any sources that explicitly discuss the former (though P&G is close). All the sources that "discuss" infantilism really have the same throwaway sentence, almost verbatim. A section on masochism with dissenting opinion seems warranted.

Irrespective, I believe we agree that the single sentence (infantilism is a part of masochism) is the only actual citation to the DSM, but it's probably better to continue this on the PI talk page. Thanks,

_complex 14:25, 16 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

I'm not bothering to reply to Bittergrey's latest posts at ANI or RSN and would suggest you don't bother either. Already I think we're the only three accounts reading his comments and there's no point re-treading this ground. Like the discussion at

_complex 11:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

Yeah I agree, it's not very productiveFiachraByrne (talk) 14:53, 17 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We might be able to cut some source-based Gordian knots with

_complex 14:43, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

Excellent WLU. Those links look very useful and I'm looking forward to seeing your Cantor integration. I'm working on my own 'draft' of the article now, following an inclusionist route as this is the only way I can find to eliminate bias. It's not ready yet, but you can see it

here.FiachraByrne (talk) 14:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

I've added my bit, but I'm not really happy with it. I really think the page requires a full rewrite from the sources-up. The current structure is awkward, broken and choppy. Do you mind if I do some citegnoming, possibly wording changes, on your draft page? I'm aggravated by my inability to edit the mainpage, I've always found that direct editing is the easiest way to actually improve things.

_complex 15:21, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

You're welcome to do whatever changes you like WLU - just don't eliminate any sources even if you think that they are iffy at the moment. We can go through that later. I'm just going to keep adding what statements I can find on infantilism.FiachraByrne (talk) 15:32, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Cantor/Blanchard draft is not bad at all and an accurate summary of their position.FiachraByrne (talk) 15:37, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Meh, I find it awkward. Regards the draft, I don't think we have enough sources to start eliminating them so no worries there :) Nearly everything can be used because even the crap I think is low-quality can still be used to source what paraphilic infantilists believe.

What would you think about moving the page to

_complex 19:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Paraphilia restricts what appears to be a diffuse phenomena. FiachraByrne (talk) 20:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right off the bat I have a couple comments regarding the citations. You're using notes+bibliography; in my experience (a dangerous, often worthless set of words), the normal process is to use the simple <ref>{{cite ____ }}</ref> and use the {{harvnb}} only for lengthy sources (i.e. books) that are cited multiple times on different pages. References like Mohanty et al., Mattoon, McCammon et al. and Carroll, which are only cited once, I wouldn't bother putting in a footnote and a bibliographical entry, I'd just use a footnote with the full citation. The same with Corsini actually, it's cited twice, but to page 374 both times. For this I'd use a <ref name = Corsini> tag. The only time I use harvnb or {{

harvnb}} and {{sfn}}, I do think it's worth cutting down on the lengthy bibliography. I also think that, where possible, we should use the {{cite pmid}} or {{cite doi

}}, or at the minimum be sure to include the pmid or doi in the citation templates.

Another change I'd like to make were I my druthers, would be to embed any google books page previews right in the citations. They look like this: {{sfn|Money|1986|p= [http://books.google.ie/books?id=OpkY2Fqwx_UC&pg=PA110#v=onepage&q&f=false 110]}} and render like this:^[1]

References

1. ^Money 1986, p. 110.

I'm not sure if you can embed an external link in the {{

harvnb

}} template, but it's easy enough to find out.

I can't say any of my suggestions would make a huge difference on the page, but I do think there is merit to them.

Another comment, the citations to justify autonepiophilia seem excessive. I realize we're doing it so Bittergrey can't object, but given the objections are spurious I think a single citation to Corsini's dictionary of psychology would be enough. Corsini also verifies it being called "autopedophilia", which we could add. That set of references, along with the set that verifies the actual definition, could probably be reduced to just a single, good one. Your thoughts? Though I plan on reviewing sources and making direct changes myself, stuff like this is good to clarify and set up from the beginning, even though it looks like little more than pedantry in many cases.

_complex 13:38, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

I just started using {{sfn}} and {{harvnb}} templates a week or so ago. They solved several problems for me which derive from my writing style. Personally, I prefer it as it provides a cleaner and more rational referencing style and is particularly useful for notes that explain as well as cite due to the lack of clutter. Also, it allows for source overkill which can be useful for contentious points. The bibliography provides a ready and readable reference for the sources supporting the article. I've tried a few systems and, personally, this is the one I like the most.

I'm not wedded to it, however, and much less so for this article.

You can embed an external link into the page number of {{[[Template:|]]}}. I didn't think this was possible actually - I just tried it out on another article - so that's good to know.

I'm sure you have more experience of editing controversial pages than I do, but I think multiple relevant citations would provide stability, no? As you state above, there will be objections to autonepiophilia as a neologism. So it might be important to show that it is used fairly broadly. I don't know how to do that without providing multiple citations.

The "autopediophilia" ref. I hadn't seen. Good to add that.

All that aside, do exactly as you wish in terms of changing the citations or text. Leave the bibliography as a reference, however; if that is untouched feel free to change the text in whatever manner you see fit.FiachraByrne (talk) 14:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I think it's pretty clear that both Freund and Blanchard (1991) and Cantor, Blanchard and Barbaree do not treat forms of masochism entailing baby-role playing as infantilism proper. Infantilism they define as an "age identity disorder" and it is notable that the description of infantilism in Cantor, Blanchard and Barbaree does not instance any masochistic acts whatsoever. However, unfortunately, they do not state this explicitly so I don't think that that point can be raised.FiachraByrne (talk) 14:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A wee trick, if you want to refer to a template without using it, use {{tl|templatename}}. Thus {{tl|sfn}} becomes {{sfn}}.

I prefer using single, authoritative sources to a deluge of middling one, but it depends. The thing is, I doubt Bittergrey will be convinced by any number of sources. Given that our audience then becomes the larger community, a better approach might be to use the best source in the page, then list, on the talk page, the other sources that could be used as well. I would first start off with a single citaiton, and if that gets edited out, then add more. It's obviously a bit of a crapshoot. Normally two editors, or groups of editors, once an undeniably reliable source is found, will bicker over wording and placement but accept that it will be included in the article. I personally couldn't believe the DSM was re-inserted repeatedly, since any reasonable editor would accept that there's no reason to cite it beyond the one behaviour.

I'll leave the bibliography, but change the citations as I suggested; you can see what I mean and if we decide to paste this wholesale into mainspace, we can leave out or include the bibliography as desired.

_complex 14:40, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

Well, for this kind of point - arguing implicitly that the term has a degree of broad acceptance among academics - I'd be inclined to just remove the weakest sources. Therefore, in addition to Corsini, I'd keep Laws and O'Donohue as they're well qualified in the area and the book is a textbook/tertiary source so their use of the term reflects a degree of acceptance. Likewise Flora's book is a fairly standard - indeed lightweight - intro to the topic designed for mental health professionals. Her use of the term indicates that it's not so esoteric. Hickey - ho hum - not so sure; he can go.

On the bibliography - there'd be no need to paste it into mainspace after you change the citation system. It's handy to have here as a reference though.FiachraByrne (talk) 14:57, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at the

WP:MEDSCI would give it a fair bit of weight. The publisher is not one I recognize, but their webpage

suggests reliability given where their books migrated :)

Everything above the line is the proposed "new draft" (again, my version, you may like yours better) and the list of references is still found in the bibliography section (I added a couple as well).

As for arguing if a term has acceptance, we really only need one term that's a scholarly source and we should be good, and that's only if it's controversial. If you don't like the sources I used, you can certainly pick and choose because it is used quite often (which, obviously, means it can't really be argued against). It's always easier to work with a good skeleton than to try to create one anew. What do you think, and again feel free to revert my changes.

_complex 16:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

I like it. Just a couple of points. The first reference to Stekel and masochism should be removed, I think. He believed that all the paraphilias arose due to "psychosexual infantilism". But check back on the source from which that point is derived.

Pedophilia. I think you might have misread F&B and CB&B but I'm afraid I have no suggestion for a fix. In CB&B they do not mention masochism at all as a behaviour associated with infantilism. Infantilism for them appears to be an age identity disorder where the object of sexual arousal is inverted. That is, "proper infantilists" have to see themselves as babies; this actually fits the small set of pedophiles in F&B's study and not the gynaephilic masochists. They're pretty clear about that as the masochists' sexual "aberration" is not in self-imaging as a baby but in the act of submission to a dominant parental figure. FiachraByrne (talk) 16:41, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I shouldn't spend much more time on this today as I've competing priorities. May I ask that you make the changes you think warranted, and I'll review them against the sources themselves later on? It's a lazy way for me to work, but I find it works well (for me). The

_complex 17:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

no active plans to write this article right now - but if you wanted you start - it would spark me into action. I think Kraepelinian dichotomy is needed, although I find the concepts post Kraepelinian or neo Kraepelinian interesting. I did notice that you've been busy. Are you a psychiatrist? Earlypsychosis (talk) 20:38, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm doing a PhD in the history of psychiatry and psychiatric patients. I was wondering as I'm trying to fix the citations in the article on Dementia Praecox written by Richard Noll recently and I've mentioned the Kraepelinian dichotomy a couple of times there and, as I'd read your user page before, I thought I might prompt you to return to the subject. If I get the chance I'll create a stub on the subject and we'll see how it goes. What do you do yourself?FiachraByrne (talk) 21:20, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clinical psychologist working with psychosis. Earlypsychosis (talk) 22:24, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah very good. Between you and me I don't think that there are any psychiatrists left on wikipedia. Hence I've been allowed to run riot around most of the psychiatry articles. Do you have a school or approach in terms of your practice?FiachraByrne (talk) 22:34, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I've started the article Kraepelinian dichotomy if you want to concentrate on the present I can fill in the history of the dichotomy, given time. FiachraByrne (talk) 23:52, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, the article uses the shortened or Harvard footnoting system. See Template:sfn FiachraByrne (talk) 23:58, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said on the

In this edit, you allude to an error message regarding Kise (also, e-mail it to me please?). Did it say something along the lines of "A bot will fill this in soon, but you can do it yourself or jump the queue"? If that's the error message you saw, the {{

_complex 20:24, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

]

I thought I sent you Kise. There was no error in fact. After I entered it in the doi template I saw a citation template error but that was actually for the Pandita reference. It works like a charm. FiachraByrne (talk) 20:28, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, glad you noticed the article Navaanneren. It happens that sources about Navaanneren are somewhat rare and they are all in Mongolian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yastanovog (talk • contribs) 15:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. It's a nice article actually. In regard to English language sources, could this possibly be the same person as the subject of your acticle [1] Here also [2]. FiachraByrne (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Yes it is the same person. Additional information from your sources: he signed the 1911 letter and also worked at the Institute of Sciences. (Yastanovog (talk) 15:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC))[reply]

OK. It needs inline citations now. I can't do that as I can't read the sources. If you could give a basic translation of the source info and post it on the talk page I could add the citations. FiachraByrne (talk) 10:40, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Translation of the text about the Altan Jan as you requested. Don't know when it was first called Altan Jan. In 1691 or 1828?)

The Setsen Khan Aimag is one of the four original Khalkha Aimags. Its large territory included today’s Dornod, Khentii, Sukhbaatar and Govisumber aimags, the eastern sums of Tov aimag and some sums of Dornogovi and Dundgovi aimags.

The royal palace of the Khalkha Setsen Khan Aimag (Palace of the Setsen Khan called Altan Jan) began in 1691 with the founding of the Tsogchin temple and the Jud temple. The Palace of the Setsen Khan was enclosed by a fortified wall and included an interior red wall, white wall and brown wall. Within the red wall were located the deity temples where deities worshipped from the time of the first Setsen khan were kept. Within the white wall were the treasury temples. Within the brown wall was the royal administrative building. The Setsen Khan palace originally had around 20 temples. Five buildings: the treasury temples containing precious relics and the Administrative building for handling Aimag-wide affairs are left today.

Around 1828 the 13th khan Artased had a number of temple-shaped buildings (called the Altan Jan) built in blue tile by Chinese workers. This work also included a residential building, a surrounding wall and a gate. Local legends say that when Setsen Khan Artased had the Altan Jan built he had requested the Manchu emperor for buildings to house the 100,000 Osorjam buddhas that he wished to create for the sake of the emperor. The Manchu emperor had then issued a decree and sent the Chinese workers. When the Altan Jan was finished the Setsen Khan made it his private residence and called it the “Ikh Yam” (Great Ministry). Tiny forms were used to create the 100,000 Osorjam buddhas so that all of them could fit on only one table inside one temple. Local legends say that the Setsen Khan tricked the Manchu emperor in this way and got himself a private residence.

During the 1929 confiscation of the property of feudals the Aimag Club was located at the Setsen Khan Altan Jan. Movies and plays were shown there. In 1936 there was a sudden fire at the Altan Jan and some of the buildings were badly burnt. The remaining 5 buildings of the Altan Jan were restored in 1981 and have since become the Aimag Ethnological Museum. Since those buildings are rare and precious historical and cultural monuments the Mongolian Government took the Palace of the Setsen Khan (where the Ethnological Museum is located) under national protection according to decree No. 175 of 2008.

The ethnological museum has five halls. The ethnological hall is located in the Summer palace of the Setsen Khan Aimag Administrative building. The religion and ceremony hall is located in the Interior Treasury building. The games and entertainment hall is located in the Exterior Treasury building. The Setsen Khan hall is located in the Doctrine Palace (it was also called the Setev Choijin). The Genghis hall is located in the Blue Litigation Court building. (Yastanovog (talk) 07:52, 28 August 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Excellent stuff! But which of three sources is this from - can you post the link to the article now so I know which one to cite?FiachraByrne (talk) 09:29, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.khentii.com/2011/07/09/%D1%81%D1%8D%D1%86%D1%8D%D0%BD-%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD-%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD-%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D1%82%D2%AF%D2%AF%D1%85%D1%8D%D1%8D%D1%81/ (Yastanovog (talk) 13:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Very good. I'll add inline citations in about 10 hours from now. FiachraByrne (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Unless I'm missing something that source doesn't support the content of the article. Do the other sources relate more directly to the article?FiachraByrne (talk) 15:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The source "Сэцэн ханы түүх намтар ил болов" (History and biography of the Setsen Khan has become public) relates more directly to the article. It encapsulates nearly all that is said in the Navaanneren article and includes a whole lot more information (for example, how he was also the President of the Khan Khentii Aimag Provincial Assembly, Acting Director of the Institute of Sciences and Member of the Lower Assembly of the Mongolian People's Republic). (Yastanovog (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Are you trying to delete all of Wikipedia besides psychiatry?! You seem the very opposite of your very inclusionist professional colleague, Casliber. Is that a form of stress relief from the mental equivalent of pulling teeth at the infantilism article? I can almost hear you going: delete-DELETE-DEELEETE.

FuFoFuEd (talk) 09:49, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. I was going through the backlog of unassessed articles, trying to be a good wikipedian and just got stuck into a deletion frenzy. Consider it an aberration that won't be repeated. FiachraByrne (talk) 10:15, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Fiachra, I have reviewed your nomination at Template:Did you know nominations/Unitary psychosis and I have a suggested ALT. Could you check it out and reply on the nomination page? Thank you. Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:59, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Crisco, I'll do that now. FiachraByrne (talk) 14:34, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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_complex 16:12, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply

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DYK for Unitary psychosis

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Wikipedia:Peer review/Political abuse of psychiatry in the Soviet Union/archive1

Thanks very much - I will take a look at tit and make some additional comments (if needed) on the PR later today. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 11:44, 9 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ruhrfisch :) FiachraByrne (talk) 19:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

De nada - assume you saw my comments on the PR. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Thanks again for taking the time to do this (and all the many other peer reviews that you do!).FiachraByrne (talk) 00:46, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again from EEng

Hey there! I did get your "I'm back" message -- I myself was off-wiki for the last 6 months. Keep up the good work. EEng (talk) 13:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Bored?

This contribution prompted me to glance over

Mental illness. I see where the editor is coming from, and believe the article could contextualise the psychiatric consensus a bit better but I definitely don't have the understanding to take it on. I thought I'd point it out in case you're interested. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:42, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply

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Thanks Anthony. I've been very busy the past while but I'll try and take a look. FiachraByrne (talk) 15:56, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I've just had a closer look and it's better than I thought at first glance. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:00, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You think? Well they are disease/syndrome constructs but I think one should say something specific (re. lay of biomarkers or of questionable validity) rather than a flat statement that they do not refer to an objective reality. Better yet, state that they are symptom clusters which are hypotheised to relate to underlying disease processes. I have an article to write on adoption for someone but I'll try to get back to this stuff in the next few weeks. FiachraByrne (talk) 01:43, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Better" in that it's not a disaster. It could be much improved. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but the edits have been reverted now in any case. Thanks for pointing this out to me though. FiachraByrne (talk) 10:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Paraphilic infantilism again

_complex 02:12, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply

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Please note the WP:Canvassing guideline. Trying to selectively get only supportive editors involved - vote staking - is inappropriate. BitterGrey (talk) 02:34, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello WLU and Bittergrey. Sorry but I've been very busy lately and I'm not sure I'll have any time to invest in paraphilic infantilism until about late January. FiachraByrne (talk) 03:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks. As I said, don't worry about it.

_complex 13:06, 4 December 2011 (UTC)[reply

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Should have let you know before, the situation at PI has been resolved with, essentially, the endorsement of the use of Cantor, Blanchard and Barbaree's work. Your attention is not needed on the page anymore, though of course it is welcome if you wish to look in!

_complex 18:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply

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Assistance requested

I am concerned that some recent edits at Anti-psychiatry and Medicalization are being challenged. Would be grateful if you could take a look please. Many thanks. Johnfos (talk) 16:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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FYI

Just FYI, I quoted you at AN/3RR. BitterGrey (talk) 15:43, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. TBH, I can't think of anything I'd like to be less involved in at this point. I trust both you and WLU are still engaged in your infinite struggle? FiachraByrne (talk)

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FYI: your name came up at ANI

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I thought this might interest you

Hi. Can I point out m:Wikimedia Medicine? It is a proposed formal corporation, based in New York, with members from all over the world, whose job is to raise and disburse funds, and engage with governments, institutions, non-profits, and other corporations to support the dissemination of free health-related information via Wikipedia or any other means. If you'd like to show your support, please add your name to this list. If you'd like to get involved, join in the conversation at m:Talk:Wikimedia Medicine, your thoughts would be very welcome. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:19, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Anthony. I hope you are well. Thanks for posting this - I'll check it out when I have time. FiachraByrne (talk)

Great to see you popping up on my watchlist again. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:22, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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