Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qantas Flight 30

What exaggeration are you referring to? If it is in the article, then edit it. If it is in the media, what part of the media reporting are you referring to? Most of it seems pretty factual to me. There is significant coverage of this event because it is highly unusual which reinforces why it should not be deleted. As for the need for hard information/evidence, it is there in photos of a 744 with a gaping whole in it - ie strong evidence of an explosive decompression. If you are talking about the cause, then what policy states that we need to know exactly what the cause is before we can have an article? Not knowing the precise cause would actually make the incident more notable, not less. In any event, the article can be updated once more is known. As for United/QF1, this is not a contest. Incidents/accidents may be more or less notable than others.

Boer War, but that doesn't mean that the Boer War article should be deleted. Obviously there needs to be a cut-off point. A good practical example is the recent wheel door failure on a Qantas 738. This has clearly been carried along by the QF30 incident. It is certainly not notable in itself and I would support a proposal to delete an article devoted to it. QF30 on the other hand is different in many key respects. It is not, as you contend, "one of many incidents a year". It is one of a handful of explosive decompressions in the history of civil aviation. It is also unusual for an explosive decompression in that it did not result in loss of life or serious injury. Seth ze (talk) 07:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

• Keep. Something described as a "hole the size of a small car" (as it was on National Public Radio this afternoon) in the side of an aircraft sounds like something significant. My feeling of the WP:AIRLINES guidance on incidents is that it is really meant to exclude more routine types of incidents, e.g. medical diversions, birdstrikes, precautionary diversions after a warning light came on, etc. If in the long term this does turn out to not have really been notable, we can always come back and reevaluate whether a standalone article is deserved. Since to me this is an incident that would lean towards long term notability, however, I'd like to keep it and build it up now, rather than having to come back in the future when sources can be harder to find (for example, some news sites move articles into pay archives after a few weeks). -- Hawaiian717 (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep at this stage. May be rolled into an article on Qantas or Aircraft hull problems at some later date if this incident - that could have easily been a disaster - proves to be not noteworthy in the WP Airline sense. Ariconte (talk) 01:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete I hold to a very liberal interpretation of NOT NEWS, but ongoing news events that are not clearly to be of permanent interest where the facts of the matter are not yet known are--like this one--exactly the sort of material that should not be included in Wikipedia. At some time in the future, possibly even the near future, it may well be possible to write an encyclopedic article, but this kind of detail and uncertainty does not even remotely qualify. I am somewhat surprised at the extent of defense of this article. The need for prompt coverage stated frequently above implies a place in WikiNews, not here. DGG (talk) 01:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment (Delete) Two people have so far indicated here that the hole was "three metres" or better yet "the size of a small car". Both of these are complete and utter fabrication of the facts. There was a 1.5 metre hole on the leading edge of the right wing. [1] Doesn't have the same ring to it now, does it? This is exactly what I'm talking about when you're sorting through the thriller movie script the media is reporting and the facts. Once this dies down in the media, this crash will be no different to the Darwin incident mentioned or the numerous 747-300 incidents. Mvjs (talk) 02:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Luckily, no such fabrications exist in the article. Plasticup ^T/C 02:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's because I just removed them. The Times has a good list of incidents on Qantas Boeing 747s that have occurred recently. [2] There have been six incidents since 1999, including Qantas Flight 1 and several of those have been more significant than this incident and are a testament to what happens after the intense media scrutiny concludes. Bar QF1, none of these have an article. Just back in February, a Qantas 747 near Bangkok lost all four engines and landed on battery power. Back in March, a window popped on a 747-300. Back in 2003, a pilot feared the plane had caught fire and everyone was evacuated on the slides. And of course our 1999 incident, where the plane slid of the end of the runway crashing into grasslands. These have all disappeared from our memory, haven't they? This will be the same fate for QF30. Mvjs (talk) 02:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for correcting that. I see that you easily found a significant number of independent and reliable secondary sources to verify the information. Plasticup ^T/C 02:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly did find some independent sources, not all of them reliable though. This is just a testament to the over zealous media coverage of the incident that has occurred, which is exactly what I am trying to point out. After we all take a deep breath, this incident will descend in to the minor incidents basket that I've previously mentioned. ^^ Mvjs (talk) 03:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those incidents you paraphrased were a little beat up, the Bangkok incident wasn't a loss of all four engines, it was a loss of electricity from the generators on all four engines due to a leak in the forward galley. The window pop incident was just a cracked window (reason enough to divert yes, not reason enough for world wide coverage). I think you'll find that traditional print editors world wide have their collective finger on the pulse that is good enough to recognise a story when they see one. 82.69.27.224 (talk) 10:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I believe the article meets the notability guideline for Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Style guide#Notability "Aviation accidents" as the incident "involves unusual circumstances", those being loss of a section of the fuselage and the resultant rapid decompression of the cabin. Melburnian (talk) 04:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep This obviously has been a major incident, not simply a flock-of-geese-in-the-turbine kind of thing. It also needs to be seen in the context that there's a general feeling now that the airline industry is at a major breaking point, because of tremendous pressures brought on by fuel costs, deregulation, and critical views on its being a sustainable mode of transport. So they've got to cut corners where they can. In fact the article mentions concerns about outsourcing of maintenance work, and though I do realise this may be a red herring, since other scenarios for this near accident are still viable, further investigation may bring facts to light that may bear on safety and other issues that are highly relevant and notable. Reigndream (talk) 04:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Perhaps I should clarify my above statement regarding the relationship between airline safety and its economical downturn in recent times and its bearing on the notability of the current entry. Incidence like this may add up to—or subtract from, depending on the investigative outcome—an overall picture of the effects of this downturn on industry standards and safeguards, which may spawn encyclopedic entries in the future (or expand current ones). Seeing that transport costs and its effects on safety are hot-button issues and are likely here to stay, entries like the one now debated would be a valuable source for these articles.Reigndream (talk) 22:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I'm starting to get the feeling now that maybe this incident might be of more significance than what was initially reported. Some pretty interesting stuff has been coming out since the initial a door has popped. It's just that between now and when the ATSB/NTSB release their reports, the article will be including information that it simply based on what the media is saying, which in a lot of cases, is spur of the moment journalism and includes factual inaccuracies and inference. Once the reports are released, we'll be able to get some solid encyclopaedic facts. It's just the window of time between now and then will leave us with an article that is really of no encyclopaedic merit. Mvjs (talk) 04:59, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per
  WP:NOTE - "topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable". BBC, Reuters, ASN, ATSB, NY Times, all cover it. This is in the same category as Aloha 243 and United 811, it was just fortunate it was part of the baggage fuselage and not passenger compartment. XLerate (talk) 05:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Comment I'd like to see a note in Cabin pressurization under Notable Incidents, even if this article is deleted. As stated in that article, these incidents are very rare and all but one of those listed have resulted in death of some or all of the occupants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaseoldboss (talk • contribs) 07:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)--Jaseoldboss (talk) 07:36, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - There is a great amount of international interest, especially in the United States where Boeing is headquartered, of the the cause of the damage as this could impact all 747-400 series aircraft, much in the same way the structural failure of
  British Airways Flight 9 and the Gimli Glider articles are doomed. --Oakshade (talk) 08:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. —WWGB (talk) 09:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep an explosive decompression is a highly unusual accident. I would expect either the airline or the manufacturer to have messed something up somewhere, but regardless, I can only think of two other nonfatal explosive decompressions (not counting truely tiny incidents with small holes) and both are very important. I might have been swayed towards delete if only a cargo door had gone, although, again, I would not be prejudiced against recreating the article if the inestigation showed up something interesting. If you get unlucky in an event like this, and the wrong bits are taken out, you can lose the entire airliner. Suggestions the passengers were never at risk are entirely false. They were fine once the air had gone and wasn't going to do any more damge; until then there was only luck in what did and didn't break. There's always the risk the wing could have been damaged and/or the engines damged by the crap coming off. A suitcase would be enough in the wrong pace. Finally, there are plenty of reliable sources to demonstrate notability. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 09:08, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per
  talk) 10:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

I think that is the best option. Delete now and if, in the future, when the ATSB/NTSB reports are released wider implications are found, the article should be recreated. Mvjs (talk) 10:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per
  WP:NOT#NEWS. Moondyne 10:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep. The international coverage, the challenge to Qantas's safety record and coming so close to the Qantas engineers' industrial action move the incident beyond
  WP:ONEEVENT to establish notability. WWGB (talk) 10:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Keep:21 Delete:15 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.27.224 (talk) 10:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Polls are evil, Polling discourages consensus. Bidgee (talk) 11:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, down to this point it's Keep:27 and Delete (including nom):14 (the Comment (Delete) is simply the nom adding comments). Might as well be accurate with this evil poll.--Oakshade (talk) 16:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep An explosive decompression on a scheduled passenger flight alone is a serious enough occurance, and this event also ties in to questions raised recently about Qantas' maintenance record. Seems pretty notable to me. tgies (talk) 11:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and Merge - still not notable for an article of its own suggest delete and add information to Qantas. If the official report/s indicate it was caused by maintenance error or the like then the article could be created from reliable sources rather than not always reliable news reports. MilborneOne (talk) 11:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Given Qantas' good flight safety, and also professionals saying that's a near-disaster, that's already notable. After all, a huge piece of metal was pulled off from that plane. – PeterCX&Talk 15:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete and Merge with
  talk) 15:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Comment
  Quantas#Aircraft incidents and accidents has now been enriched for a mention of this incident/accident (classified as such by ATSB/NTSB), despite an apparent initial edit war sustained in order to keep it unmentioned, now that expert wikipedians in aviation have spoken. Deleting the article now would not be as damaging to the cause of serving the average reader, assuming my addition sticks. It is well-sourced, factual, informative and neutral. It expressly mentions the preliminary ATSB/NTSB status given this event. --Mareklug ^talk 16:56, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Delete per
  WP:NOTNEWS. No deaths, no injuries, no evidence of lasting notability beyond a couple of news cycles. By all means mention in the Qantas article - we do that already - but no need for a separate article. Biruitorul ^Talk 17:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

(Comment) I would note that there was a massive edit war on the Qantas main article (mainly that people kept removing a link to this article from that article, and were removing any reference at all to the Qantas Explosive Decompression incident! I do not understand *why* the position changed, but I do note that the moment that reference got inserted into the Qantas article as a tiny side-note, then more Delete calls from the editors of the Qantas article ('We') appeared here! Wikipedia is not censored. Buckethed (talk) 23:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• KEEP with Substantial Damage to the airframe due to explosive decompression during a flight loaded with passengers, it's classified as Serious Incident by ATSB http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/aair200804689.aspx {Howardchu (talk) 21:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)}[reply]

• DELETE. The investigation has not been concluded or published yet, so any comments about explosive decompression are
  reliability. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Socrates2008 (Talk) 22:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• No, actually, explosive decompression has been established. That was the easy part. In fact, that's the only bit of the investigation that is availible to the public. Trying to pin down a cause - that is OR. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 22:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Also, Socrates2008, if we use the rule that any articles where the investigation has not been completed should not be included in Wikipedia, we may as well delete the last year or two of this aviation accidents/incidents page!. So, your delete vote is discounted :) Buckethed (talk) 02:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless, just because an article contains original research doesn't mean the subject of the article is not

notable. Remove the OR and consider what remains. --RFBailey (talk) 23:01, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

• COMMENT Greetings, Socrates2008. Whether we should label the occurence as "
  explosive decompression" has actually taken place, if a "hole" is large enough to expose the cargo hold along with the separation of a section of the wing root fairing which has been classified as "substantial damage" to the airframe by ATSB[3], then leading to another "hole" appeared in cabin floor AND losing cabin pressure in a sudden, it's a notable event even it's not ended in disastrous outcome with any loss of life or the aircraft itself. The reliability of using materials of original research can't discount the exhibit of these substantial damages. {Howardchu (talk) 06:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)}[reply
  ]

Comment - the most recent ATSB press release says this is a rapid decompression event. Doesn't quite sound as sensational anymore as the explosive decompression event everyone was initially talking about, does it? Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT Socrates2008, with all due respect, are you deflecting the critical issue of the subject? Once again, it's a rare occurence in aviation whether we should label it as "

explosive decompression". If a "hole" is large enough to expose the cargo hold along with the separation of a section of the wing root fairing which has been classified as "substantial damage" to the airframe by ATSB[4], then leading to another "hole" appeared in cabin floor AND losing cabin pressure in a sudden, it's a notable event even it's not ended in disastrous outcome with any loss of life or the aircraft itself. The reliability of using materials of original research can't discount the exhibit of these substantial damages. {Howardchu (talk) 17:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)}[reply

]

I thought explosive decompression was a form of rapid decompression? One's just more ambiguous, but I thought here they mean essentially the same thing, the latter just also covers a bit more. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 12:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction between rapid decompression and explosive decompression is one of degrees. As per the references on the

explosive decompression page, it's a question of speed, with explosive decompression typically taking less than 0.5 seconds with a high risk of lung trauma. It is also compartively unlikely to occur in a large aircraft, with the larger volume of the vessel involved. This said, I don't think a rapid decompression is any less sensational - it's still an extraordinarily rare and potentially dangerous event. People and crew have been torn out of aircraft in rapid decompression events and it is fortunate - and notable - that this did not occur on this occasion. -- Rob.au (talk) 13:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

• KEEP This is getting lots of news coverage and is well covered. This sort of things seems to catch the publics imagination, even more so than some traditional fatal accidents. I guess its the nature of a "big hole in my airplane" thing. The accident is unusual, notable and well well covered by RS. Slam dunk keep. Dman727 (talk) 23:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep It is an accident, and agreed with the above points of satisfying
  WP:NOTE and the fact there shouldn't be fatalties/injuries for inclusion. Have seen similar articles. ~ Trisreed my talk my contribs 02:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep : Going purely by the guidelines, this accident seems to fall into
  WP:AIRLINES, which defines what information should be included on an airlines' page. Thus, the event seems to definitely belong in its own page, and may or may not be appropriate for the Quantas page depending on what comes out of the investigation. In any case, a gaping hole of any size forming spontaneously in the external fuselage of an aircraft seems like an event noteworthy of inclusion even if it becomes a somewhat obscure article (only of interest to researchers) in time. And if it's really as mundane as some posit, it can be deleted later, but at this point I'm convinced it's noteworthy. --Sam (talk) 02:56, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep - article is well-referenced and clearly establishes notability as an important incident in the history of one of the world's most well-known airlines. - Mark 05:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - can I just remind contributors that an AfD is not a vote please refrain from adding up scores. The closing admin will make a decision on the arguments put forward not on the number of deletes and keeps. Thank You. MilborneOne (talk) 08:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Widespread media coverage means a wealth of
  verifiable. -- SCZenz (talk) 11:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Strong Keep. This is an extremely serious incident. The only reason this aircraft did not break up in flight resulting in a total loss of life was because of the airframe design that incorporates strengthening ribs throughout the skin of the aircraft, so if a sections of airframe is damaged such as this, the ribs stop the damage from spreading, and splitting open the whole aircraft. From the looks of the pictures, this aircraft very nearly could have broken past these strengthening, and become a total loss. If this Boeing aircraft was not designed with such good safety mechanisms built in, it would have been a different outcome, but the accident is still extremely serious. I believe there is very valuable lessons to learn from this accident, independent of the fact there was no loss of life, so this article should be kept so the results of the investigation can be included in the article as the facts become available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.238.65 (talk) 12:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - it's notable and important.--Avala (talk) 15:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Are you suggesting somebody needs to die before an accident qualifies for Wikipedia?! This incident is major in every way except the sensationalist, and should definitely be kept!
  CapnZapp (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep. The accident is being described as a Serious Incident with the damage described as Substantial by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau. Mjroots (talk) 18:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Part of the side of a 747 falling off is an extremely rare incident, which will remain notable, whatever the cause.--Lester 20:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep There were no casualties on British Airways Flight 38, but that is still notable and its article has not been deleted. This article is interesting and cites many references, it should definitely be kept. 212.159.69.172 (talk) 21:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep It's a major event which has made news around the world, and this may even cause an airworthiness directive to be issued by various bodies around the world for the 747. It's just speculation "eg an internet forum said this" type talk should be removed as soon as possible, as these are not reliable (or authoritative) sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harvyk (talk • contribs) 23:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I oppose any ,pves at tring to remove this article. QF 30 mwas a major aviation accident where an aeroplane and peope were saved only saved by luck. We can not give in to false Aussie pride nor to the love of Qantas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anteres101 (talk • contribs) 15:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep without prejudice. I think that, for the time being, the most useful thing for Wikipedia is to have an article on the incident. It's easier than fighting a running battle against article recreation, and the current article appears to be robustly sourced. A few months down the road, let's revisit and see if it still warrants an article to itself. —C.Fred (talk) 23:46, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Clearly a noteworthy event, with ongoing ramifications for the Australian aviation industry and flagship airline. I don't subscribe to the interpretation of
  WP:NOTNEWS being touted above, and disagree with such rapid deletion based on such an interpretation of same. --Canley (talk) 01:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep A noteworthy event with worldwide ramifications. Schmoul Aschkenazi (talk) 03:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The article has sufficient references to warrant its retention, as well as significant media coverage in the Philippines, Australia and abroad. (Note: this article is now part of the Philippine WikiProject deletion watchlist.) --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 04:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Aviation history, with international significance. - DaughterofSun (talk) 04:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Has enough citations, and I saw this on TV, and the news.
  talk) 06:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keep I personally think the article should be kept for say, 6 months and then have a revision. This will have 2 benifeits, it will mean that the media coverage should have died down, and some "official" studies will have been done, allowing a more unbiased descision to be done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.240.36.167 (talk) 06:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I do not think events like these require a casualty for them to be notable. Starczamora (talk) 06:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Keep. For an incident which fuels lots of attention because it has the potential of putting the future of the Boeing 747 in question[5], I would think it fulfilled the notability requirement easily on its own. While some guidelines established by a clunch of individuals in
  WP:AIRLINES may be well-meaning, taking them literally to the last when determining the notability of an aviation incident is plain silly, as many have pointed out. I recall how a few of them insists the first A380 commercial flight ought to be deleted[6] too because it describes a piece of good news and no one is dead. I hope wikipedia is not becoming an aviation orbituary page!--Huaiwei (talk) 07:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Delete For crying out loud, does every aviation incident (including those without any fatalities or even injuries) need an article now?
  Wikipedia is not the place for news reports. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 08:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Comment This isn't every aviation incident - it's a unique event. The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has said ""As far as we can determine this has never happened before on a passenger aircraft. There's no reports of it anywhere, so it's very, very unusual and obviously understanding why that happened will be absolutely critical to making sure it can't occur again". [7] -- Rob.au (talk) 11:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't think fatality or injury count should have any bearing on article notability-- in fact I'd say it's the opposite. Over-emphasizing fatalities, I think, that makes wikipedia sometimes seem like news reports and requires the
    WP:NOT#NEWS guideline. There are a tiny number of cases where an aircraft has opened up in mid-flight, and thus each one probably deserves its own article so researchers can easily dig into the analysis and details. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samkass (talk • contribs) 13:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
    ]
• Keep. Meets Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aviation/Style_guide#Aviation_accidents as an unusual incident involving an otherwise extremely reliable airline. MickMacNee (talk) 15:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, I highly doubt this discussion will end in anything other than a no consensus, but my two cents and gut feel is that this is going to be forgotten about by the public in a week or so.
  WP:NOTNEWS and all that. Certainly would be appropriate to expand the brief article on wikinews though. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 15:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC).[reply
  ]

• No, it wouldn't. Wikinews is a news site, not an encyclopedia. That article is over 24 hours old and should not receive any more major edits. New developments get new articles, and they are welcome. Also, notability isn't measured by memorability anyway. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 15:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. This incident has lots of prominent international news coverage, and can be revisited several months later if there's no lasting effects. Galatee (talk) 16:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. I think Galatee and MickMacNee have it about right: let's revisit this at a later stage if needed, but it's certainly too early to consider this for deletion. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment The latest Qantas incident is in my opinion an example of the sort of news item that does not warrant an entry in Wikipedia. It is exactly because of the significance of QF30 that minor aviation incidents are today being reported. The chief executive of Qantas is today reported as describing the QF30 event as "a very, very bad accident." I still say keep. 80.176.88.21 (talk) 18:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Strong Keep - This is highly notable because explosive decompression had occurred, similar to United Airlines Flight 811, and Aloha Airlines Flight 243. People should not have to die, for an article to be included in wikipedia.--Subman758 (talk) 20:57, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Strong Keep - why not keep? it's there already —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.128.27.8 (talk) 21:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Flashing things on webpages are offensive - Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and this article is pure sensationalist news. The incident was not notable nor serious enough (relative to aviation incidents in general, not relative to Qantas' history) to get a whole WP article. It should be a paragraph, or a section at absolute most, on Qantas. --BG (talk) 06:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New section

• Keep. Structural failure or incidents caused by "routine" operation are notable. The difference between life and death is something of luck. And in a time when we focus on aircraft security, it is important to also keep our eye on the continuing, long-standing problem of operational problems. Ron B. Thomson (talk) 21:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep Scanlan (talk) 03:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep Explosive decompression in civil aircraft is highly unusual and this instance may even be unique if, as postulated, it is due to an exploding oxygen cylinder. "An oxygen cylinder had never before exploded mid-air on a passenger aircraft, a Civil Aviation Safety Authority spokesman, Peter Gibson, said yesterday. He confirmed the oxygen cylinder was missing, and would be a key focus of the bureau investigation." ^[1] I cannot believe that this article is even being considered for deletion. This seems to be part of a disturbing trend to use notability concerns as form of censorship. Seth ze (talk) 05:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "Censorship"? Nice way to get attention, but I'd be surprised if any of the people nominating "delete" (myself included) would mind this being on WP. We just don't think it is notable nor serious enough to get its own article. A paragraph or section on the Qantas page would be far more suitable. --BG (talk) 06:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• True, I agree with you Seth ze! It's pretty absurd that this article is even being discussed on AFD. It's very insulting to my intelligence that this even on the table and taking up my (our) valuable time and space. I am very skeptical of this deletion nomination by users ApprenticeFan, Mvjs and other early editors that responded. However, I am heartened that Mvjs hints at some regret about this AFD request in his later posts: I'm starting to get the feeling now that maybe this incident might be of more significance than what was initially reported. I believe there is a lesson to be learned from this experience: an article that really shouldn't have been an AFD candidate was nominated; this led to a cesspool that we see now. The lesson is: we should pick and choose our AFD battles very carefully; battles that are not meritorious (such as this one) turn into a polarized cesspool of editors arguing against what they perceive as the 'other' side. Hundreds of wasted hours (that could have been spent to have dinner with family, play in a golf match, have a lunch hour with colleagues, have a few brewskis during happy hour) have disappeared into this oblivion of a black hole that we call the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qantas Flight 30 discussion page. Thanks! --Inet^pup_:o3 ^{⌈〒⌋▰⌈♎⌋} 07:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's happened and can't see how this is an issue and this page is about why you want to delete or keep not the above comments (Nor my own). The AfD opener may have done it a little early but they may have reasons for doing so. I also doubt hours have been wasted on this AfD. Bidgee (talk) 07:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I was looking at a news video about this incident, and I went to Wikipedia in order to get a good summary and a really good compliation of the currently available sources. I got what I wanted. This article is useful and encyclopedic. - Enuja (talk) 05:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep - notable enough for an article and interesting. Wikipedia is not paper and can afford to keep articles like this. And although this is not a vote, the number of persons who want to keep this article strongly suggests that this should be kept by consensus. JRG (talk) 06:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep verifiable notable incident that was not within the ordianry run of events - come back in 6 months time and try again - perhaps with hindsight it won't be notable but right now would appear to be so. --Matilda ^talk 06:39, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Going by current investigations, the explosion occurred because of an oxygen cylinder. Does that make this particular incident notable? Accidents happen everywhere. So many aircraft hit birds because of which they have to make emergency landings. We cannot have articles on all such incidents. I've gone through all the arguments in favor of keeping the article and couldn't find one which was convincing enough. --
  talk) 06:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

I believe that does make it notable from what I heard on the news last night there has not been any similar explanation for an explosion before. Bird strike would not have been notable. --Matilda ^talk 07:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A bird strike would have been notable IFF (if and only if) the bird splatter caused

explosive decompression. Of course, for that to happen the bird would have to hit the cockpit glass head on. In such cases, there are much more serious problems, such as the pilot's face going missing, which would be very notable. Thanks! --Inet^pup_:o3 ^{⌈〒⌋▰⌈♎⌋} 07:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

Can I point out that Qantas had to go over all their 747s to check the cylinders and the brackets that hold them? That on its own is close to meeting the guidlines

WP:AIRCRASH had been working on before it became inactive. Also, the 'unusual circumstances' part seas this. I should point out, though, that against my argument there is the fact that those guidlines were still considered incomplete last I knew, although they were reasonably close to it. Blood Red Sandman ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 12:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

Plus the fact that other airlines have become worried and are doing similar checks on their Boeing 747s.[8]--Huaiwei (talk) 13:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't gone through the

talk) 14:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply

]

This is in direct contradiction to what CASA has said about this. "As far as we can determine this has never happened before on a passenger aircraft ... There's no reports of it anywhere, so it's very, very unusual and obviously understanding why that happened will be absolutely critical to making sure it can't occur again". [10] -- Rob.au (talk) 15:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. —• Gene93k (talk) 08:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Question: wouldn't this contribute an even greater cesspool of AFD because other users would from that other project would start adding their input? Just wondering. Thanks! --Inet^pup_:o3 ^{⌈〒⌋▰⌈♎⌋} 08:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Are you suggesting maybe that more people might get to offer their input? Your statement seems to suggest that you consider that a bad thing... --BG (talk) 10:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Or that posting it in specific area might look like soliciting. Plasticup ^T/C 12:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Incidents are generally news stories and subject to higher notability standards than other subjects since Wikipedia is not a newspaper. However, explosive decompressions are very rare, and very serious (like American Airlines Flight 96). This was not just a malfunctioning engine or oxygen tank which is handled routinely, this was a serious explosion which caused serious damage to the aircraft. (If you look at the pictures, that is a big hole near the wing.) These things are taken very seriously by aviation authorities, and bring up safety questions on par with a fatal accident. The interest and seriousness in something like this is well enough to support inclusion. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Newsworthy but not noteworthy (or should that be newsable but not notable?) If and when the outcome of this leads to a change in 747 operations, we can always reinstate it. --Rlandmann (talk) 11:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete with no prejudice against recreation once the ATSB and other inquiries have reported on it. Orderinchaos 11:58, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment If we apply that logic, then we would need to delete most of the 2008,2007 articles from aviation accidents / incidents!. That aside, I agree that Westerm Australia is a lovely place to be and I do hope to visit there soon :) 166.83.21.221 (talk) 03:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The unusual nature of the accident makes this notable. AP via San Jose Mercury News: "Blyth (a senior ATSB investigator) and other officials say they are unaware of any previous cases in which an oxygen tank caused an airline accident." and it's not like the ValuJet crash. Philadelphia Inquirer: "Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Les Dorr cautioned, however, that the only thing the Qantas mishap and the ValuJet crash in 1996 'have in common is the word oxygen.'"
  Balsa10 (talk) 13:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep - this is a very notable event, furthermore it was covered by many independent sources --T-rex 14:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - Wikipedia commonly includes articles on contemporary news events, and even has a section on its home paged which mentions these events. This article is no exception to the standard applied to dozens of other articles, and is in fact very newsworthy in our age of worries about flight safety and the viability of the commercial airline industry. That is is being discussed on other major newsites lends credibility to the article's existence. If Wikipedia is indeed not a news website, as Wikimedia is, then the entirety of Wikipedia's news articles should be scrapped. This article must not be singled out as an exception for the sake of fairness and consistency. 9:59, 29 July 2008 (CST)
• Keep' this is a notable incident and covered by ATSB and NTSB. Jer10 95 Talk 17:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep It fits
  WP:Notable without question. TheAsianGURU (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep - adequate notability. Barnabypage (talk) 20:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep for now - This was potentially a serious incident. It is very recent and we await hearing developments in the investigation. Its retention may need to be reconsidered when the outcome of the investigation is known. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment on revisiting. Surely any assessment of notability is a one time thing. i.e. notable now = notable forever: per the notability guideline, we do not revisit an article once it has been established as notable and then delete if certain developments don't happen. That would be the violation of
  crystall ballery. MickMacNee (talk) 03:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep - I am starting to think that this meets notability requirements just for all the fuss it is causing from it's AfD nomination. "Methinks thou doth protest too much..." Also, it was a potentially serious incident that ended without death or injury when other similar incidents have resulted in those very things. Wikipedia articles don't exist to just feed the "ghouls" that want to read about death and misery. I dunno though... and Emperor Genius, the difference is that the other plane returned to its port by choice not because of a life or death incident. Radiooperator (talk) 10:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep - I just came to Wikipedia to find more technical facts about this incident over the somewhat exaggerated stuff being put out by the UK media and was somewhat taken back that it had been marked for deletion. This is certainly a serious incident which may have implications to all areas of aviation. At least wait until firm facts are known before deleting. Dsergeant (talk) 11:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong keep meets
  WP:V. Honestly, could you guys start actualy building articles rather than simply deleting them? I thought Qantas had a reputation of havindg no accidents, though that may be just me. --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 12:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Keep pretty much as per LeadSongDog and others, above. Also because there is a story reported by the BBC, here, that the cockpit voice recorder was wiped in the incident. As and when further evidence about that comes to light, the unexpected consequences of this incident may become more notable (i.e. there may need to be an investigation of the security of these important devices in this aircraft type). Therefore, as has been said, it's too soon to decide on the article's noteworthiness. – Kieran T ^(talk) 12:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep The evidence is leaning very strongly, according to the ATSB, towards an exploding oxygen tank (debris was found in the passenger compartment). This would make the incident unique, particularly in light that it was ultimately non-catastrophic (similar to the Aloha Airlines Flight 243 incident, though for a different reason). If the incident is unique, that should automatically make it noteworthy.—WhosAsking (talk) 12:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Amended to Strong Keep. This article meets the Notability criteria, as it has received significant coverage in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject (we're talking sources like the BBC, Associated Press, New York Times, and CNN to name a few).
• Amend to Strong Keep. Even the ATSB now calls this occurrence an "Accident". It appears to be a near-miracle there wasn't an oxygen fire in flight. There will clearly be several good lessons learned from this investigation. Full disclosure: I've been actively engaged in improving the article. LeadSongDog (talk) 18:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. It's a news item, not an encyclopedic event.--Dmol (talk) 18:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Amend to Strong Keep. Looking at
  WP:NOT#NEWS, I don't believe this accident can be considered a routine or trivial news event. I'm referring to the damage sustained to the aircraft coupled with an ultimately non-fatal result, as WhosAsking partially says, the likelihood of the unusual cause of the accident, as Balsa10 says, and that Qantas checking all its 747s has influenced other arlines to do the same, as Huaiwei said. I've revised my original opinion, and while its notability can be revisited later, believe it is notable regardless of future repurcussions or lack of same. Galatee (talk) 19:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Strong Keep. This is a modern news item - there are a total of 40 refs, which establish its notability. There really isn't any reason to delete anymore, since the article has been improved dramatically. --haha169 (talk) 19:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.