Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Yozzer66/userboxes/Antifa

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was: delete. ‑Scottywong| prattle _ 06:13, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Yozzer66/userboxes/Antifa

User:Yozzer66/userboxes/Antifa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
User:Supersheep/Userboxes/Antifa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
User:Life in General/Userboxes/Antifa (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

These infoboxes are not just an endorsement of Antifa, but an endorsement of political violence. Per

WP:UBCR, this is not really conductive for building an encyclopedia and I don’t find this acceptable, as threats or endorsements of violence are not generally a good thing here. Toa Nidhiki05 16:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
]

  • This is inaccurate. If the infobox just said “this user supports Antifa”, there is no threat or endorsement of violence. However, it also says it supports them in “combating fascism in both word and action”. That is an explicit endorsement of political violence, which violates
    WP:UBCR (“Userboxes must not be inflammatory or divisive“) Toa Nidhiki05 18:34, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
    ]
That most certainly is not an "
WP:AGF applies here. VQuakr (talk) 18:42, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
What direct action does Antifa do other than violence? If you want argue they engage in other forms of direct action like property destruction or harassment, I guess you can do that, but the former is illegal and the latter is either illegal or immoral and arguably a violation of Wikipedia policy. Regardless, how does this inflammatory and divisive userbox help the encyclopedia? There’s no actual benefit to keep this. Toa Nidhiki05 18:48, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Doxxing, protesting (but like the Milkshaking kind), praxis, etc. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:21, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Protesting and mutual aid come to mind. I can't help but think this nomination may be partially rooted in ignorance. See
WP:NOGOOD re "There’s no actual benefit...". VQuakr (talk) 06:43, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
Hold off on the personal attacks, please. Entirely unwarranted here. I’ve said these violate
WP:UBCR and the response has been generally quibbling over what “direct action” (a phrase the userbox does not use) means. None of this is a compelling reason to keep a userbox that is clearly inflammatory and not conductive to building an encyclopedia, which is why I said there has been no benefit given to keep it. It serves no value on its own and actually violates policies. Toa Nidhiki05 12:49, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
@Toa Nidhiki05: you missed the mark a bit. It's not combating fascism in both word and action; it's combating fascism in both word and action. The fact that there is an emphasize on the "and" part, it reads implicitly as something someone might otherwise object to. The context is key. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 19:19, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Read the article. This is completely opposite to what experts and reliable sources said on the subject. How many people did antifa kill in the last five years? Isn't that zero? And how many Jews alone did white supremacists murder in cold blood in the same period? How many black people did KKK lynch? Those are actual acts of domestic terrorism. "Widely accused of terrorism" by some fragile white hearts I suppose.
    *miki*⧸ 🌉 14:21, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Your straw arguments aren't convincing. You are an editor who has an Antifa support box on your home page. Are we going to assume that your view on the subject is largely objective or biased? Springee (talk) 18:17, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I’d have no issue deleting more userboxes. In fact, the Totalitarian, Nazi, and Fascist ones should all be nominated for deletion as well. Our policies on userboxes are very clear on what is or is not acceptable. Toa Nidhiki05 14:18, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think the operant question has anything to do with whether or not violence is being suggested. It is a strident advocacy relating to a contemporary and contentious issue. I don't think our User pages should be used for such purposes. We share with others our individuality on User pages. Beyond that limited usage everything else represents a questionable use of User pages and is therefore open to revocation in a discussion such as this. Bus stop (talk) 14:24, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • That political infoboxes should be avoided is a reasonable position to take, but it's not the position advanced by the nominator and it's clearly a position held by a minority of editors (in this discussion, only by you), so I don't agree that it's the most salient question here. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 14:44, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The most salient question is what promotes collegiality and what causes arguments. Bus stop (talk) 15:21, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Americans and their allies "committed far more violent acts than Antifa" to Nazis during the war. The two sides are not equal. --
    talk) 16:06, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • We aren't targeting all political userboxes. I'm guessing that we're only after those which espouse violence. That would also include communism. What about that? --
    talk) 02:39, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
    ]
I wouldn't dismiss Social conflict theory, Monopoly on violence and the rest to have some baseless consensus. What about the many countries that have capital punishment, torture, excessive use of force etc. as measures against political foes? What makes direct action/revolutions different? wumbolo ^^^ 13:22, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Violence isn't really the only problem. Contentiousness is the problem, however difficult that may be to define. But any definition of contentiousness has to take into account the nature of this project. We are here to collaborate on the compilation of documents (articles) that are composed of on-topic and reliably-sourced material. That requires seeing from the perspective of an editor with whom we are engaged in a fierce disagreement. How can we see from another editor's perspective if they are using their user-page to promote a view with which we disagree? OK, you can see from their perspective, no matter what. But it makes it more difficult to do so. Strident user-boxes in general are counterproductive to the collaborative environment that we should want to foster. Bus stop (talk) 15:10, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete - The issue here is not antifa as such, but antifa userboxes, and this discussion is demonstrating that these userboxes are not only divisive but are encouraging stupid comments (as well as wise comments) and are polarizing. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:27, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It appears they only cause disruption. Same would go for userboxes declaring a person is a fascist. In this context they are the same. PackMecEng (talk) 04:19, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep If people want to humiliate themselves by posting such userboxes, let them. Shinealittlelight (talk) 19:15, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with you even though we are weighing in with opposite opinions on the outcome. To me it is so wrongheaded that any person with such sentiments displayed on their User page should want to remove those sentiments. To me it is showing that they do not understand that an aim of Wikipedia is to collaborate to write well-balanced articles. Bus stop (talk) 22:11, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Observation: I don't like Antifa, for the same reasons that (in historical retrospect) I don't like the brownshirts of the 1920s-1930s: their vicious tactics and the injuries they inflict on the vulnerable and unarmed targets they choose. The massive dishonesty, which intellectuals daintier than I may prefer to call irony, in being fascist while claiming to be anti-fascist beggars belief.
I toyed with the idea of creating a userbox with a presidential pic and the statement that this user likes DJ Trump, but I haven't pursued it because Wikipedia is neither a means of recruitment nor a social forum: it is an encyclopedia.
I probably care less than I should about whether or not some editors choose to post userboxes like these. All that said, I'm moved neither to welcome such userboxes nor forbid them. but the temptation to say something here was irresistible. – Athaenara ✉ 10:00, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Template:User Donald Trump and Template:User pro-Trump already exist, but you're free to make another I suppose. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 10:06, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Arms & Hearts: That's interesting. I could also work up a userbox for this user suddenly began liking chocolate and coca cola after years of being indifferent to both and her health hasn't suffered a bit, but it seems as disconnected as the political ones from our encyclopedic mission here. – Athaenara ✉ 11:02, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My reluctance is to single out this one editor for this one user-box because as I see it the problem is pernicious. It manifests itself in many different ways. Strident user-page messages only exacerbate the argumentation that is part and parcel of hammering out articles that truly embody a neutral point of view. Bus stop (talk) 13:54, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per rationales by several users, including WP:POLEMIC and WP:UBCR. The userbox is certainly "inflammatory or divisive", as Antifa is a far-left movement that is described as extremist e.g. by the government of Germany and that is noted for using violence and branding non-fascists they disagree with (up to and even including social democrats) as "fascists". --Tataral (talk) 17:30, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Although userpages technically aren't supposed to be used for any form of promotion or advocacy, we generally tolerate a certain level of personal expression through userboxes, short bios, etc. A long screed advocating violent overthrow would cross the line but a simple userbox is well within reason. Since the proposal to ban political userboxes failed, we should not be in the business of deciding which political views or groups are permissible. According to the User pages guidelins, "'Acts of violence' includes all forms of violence, but does not include mere statements of support for controversial groups or regimes that some may interpret as an encouragement of violence." –dlthewave ☎ 22:02, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Also note that these userboxes talk about action, which does not necessarily mean exercising violence towards other. Action in the antifascist movement usually involves many forms of protest. --MarioGom (talk) 10:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • We should be concerned with what is conducive to collaborative editing. Obviously we should not use our User page to advocate violence. We have articles such as Antifa (United States). It is not unheard of for disputes to arise on its Talk page. Is the presence of user-box language such as "This user supports antifa in combating fascism in both word and action" conducive to collaborative editing? Such a message puts an editor that disagrees with that sentiment on alert that reasoning and dialogue are of secondary importance because a firmly held position has already been articulated on another editor's User page. And it gets worse. If they point out that this declared position exists on another editor's User page, they are liable to being blocked with the understanding that they are commenting on the other editor instead of the content under discussion. And it is even construed as a personal attack. Isn't the solution to not have such strident declarations about contentious issues on one's User page? Bus stop (talk) 02:53, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, per Dlthewave.
    talk) 10:43, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Comment - Reminder that this is
    not a vote and that personal opinions about whether all userboxes should be allowed or inconsistent enforcement of userbox policy does not matter here. The only thing that matters in determining consensus here is if these userboxes violate Wikipedia policy. Toa Nidhiki05 12:19, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
    ]
As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, I am certainly no expert, Antifa is organized along the lines of a cell system, which makes the issue of there being no overarching unified organizational structure a matter of technicality. Also the people who think it is a terrorist organization do describe it as an "organization" according to the article. We could get into the weeds here and have a long discussion about what an organization is, but that was not really my point. Declaring association with Antifa is certainly not the same thing as just declaring a political stance. --Hecato (talk) 14:10, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Where are you getting this from? O3000 (talk) 14:15, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly? What I described above is how I interpreted the article. --Hecato (talk) 14:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's certainly nothing in the article about a "cell system", or any other formal political structure, nor should there be, because no such thing exists. Regardless, since
Wikipedia is not a reliable source, I'd suggest looking at some of the publications cited in the article to get a sense of what antifa is and is not. The interview with Mark Bray in Vox and Bray's piece in the Washington Post might be good places to start (Bray is at present the only person to have published a scholarly monograph on antifa, and in the Post piece he says "antifa is not itself an interconnected organization, any more than an ideology like socialism or a tactic like the picket line is a specific group"). I normally try not to pester people in deletion discussions, and I apologise for doing so in this case, but it really seems to me that your !vote is founded on a serious misinterpretation of a central issue. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
I did some shallow research based on your suggestions. Specifically I skimmed through 'Antifa: The Antifascist Handbook' by Mark Bray. One of his sources, from which he takes several quotes is this manual Forming An Antifa Group: A Manual. It suggests building up local antifa groups along the cell model. Also this New York Times article also refers to Antifa "cells". I also found quite a few right wing news outlets who call Antifa a terrorist organization and described them as local cells. Also it is rather obvious from just reading the description of Antifa in our respective article that they are employing these tactics. So I remain with my interpretation. --Hecato (talk) 15:31, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I see where the confusion is coming from. I may have misunderstood you myself. The sources you point to do indeed refer to antifa groups as "cells". They do not, however, support the claim that antifa employs a clandestine cell system in the sense discussed in that article. The antifa cells discussed in the sources are wholly autonomous groups, whereas cells in a clandestine cell system are part of a hierarchical organisation. So the It's Going Down post describes "a cell model ... in which one member meets with others when required", but isn't suggesting that such a cell function as part of a broader hierarchical network. Likewise, when the NYT mentions "cells" it's in the same sentence as "autonomous" and "without official leaders". You won't find anything in Bray's work or any other reliable source that would support the conclusion that "cell" is ever meant in any other sense: there are no formal organisational ties connecting "cells" and no leadership directing or guiding them. So your initial claim that antifa is an organisation, rather than a movement comprising numerous autonomous groups and individuals, is an understandable mistake but a mistake nonetheless, and your !vote is still, I think, founded on a misapprehension. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:02, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Cells with shared goals who act independently, potentially autonomously with communication limited to internal members of the cell. If necessary one person in the cell keeps contact with their equivalent in another cell or other sympathetic entities. Members keep their affiliation hidden as much as possible and internal communication is shielded from the outside. Used primarily to prevent infiltration by opponents, just as described in that manual. That describes the clandestine cell model. Sorry, but I cannot really interpret this in any other way. --Hecato (talk) 17:47, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Does it describe an organisation though? Surely only in an unfeasibly broad sense of that word. That antifa is an organisation, rather than a movement or tactic or political perspective or orientation, was the basis for your !vote and remains unsupportable. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 18:07, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
However you want to describe this structure, declaring yourself to be a member of it is certainly not the same thing as just listing your political stance (e.g. like being liberal, conservative, green, progressive, nationalist, socialist). That difference is the basis of my !vote. Plus the subtext in that box, which can easily be interpreted to indicate the intention to commit violence against other people. --Hecato (talk) 18:17, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Declaring oneself a member of something is indeed different from describing a belief or position. However, (1) this userbox very clearly does not identify editors using it as a members of antifa; and (2) it would be nonsensical if it did, because as per several sources cited above and in the article, antifa does not have members. I don't think this discussion is going anywhere though, so I'll leave it here if you don't mind. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are right, I should have written "member or supporter". --Hecato (talk) 18:55, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The userbox links to Anti-fascism, not Antifa (United States). Also note that it uses lowercase. It is not about a specific organization or group. Not that it's a crucial point here, but it's important to clarify since other editors have suggested Antifa (United States) as the subject of the userbox here. Also the user self-identifies as living in the UK, so probably not into the US antifa hysteria. Those who think that antifascist protests are invariably violent probably ignore a lot about the movement or are too focused on some region or period of time with particular controversy (as recently in the US). --MarioGom (talk) 22:03, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would just like to add that antifa is also always written lowercase "antifa" in the article Antifa (United States). --Hecato (talk) 10:00, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it would be a mistake to imagine that these refer to Antifa (United States). These userboxes were created, respectively, seven, eight and eleven years before that article was created (August 2006, February 2009 and September 2010 vs. August 2017). – Arms & Hearts (talk) 11:09, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Wouldn't the prohibition on promoting violence: Statements or pages that seem to advocate, encourage, or condone these behaviors: vandalism, copyright violation, edit warring, harassment, privacy breach, defamation, and acts of violence. ("Acts of violence" includes all forms of violence, but does not include mere statements of support for controversial groups or regimes that some may interpret as an encouragement of violence.) even prohibit an "I support the death penalty"? Not sure policy can be consistently applied. This userbox is disruptive but so are many things that might survive through a popularity contest !vote while still arguably violating policy. —DIYeditor (talk) 17:33, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • As I suggested above, not only "I support the death penalty" but also, for example, any of the userboxes at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Military. No serious thinker on the question of violence would deny the existence of structural violence, i.e. that violence mostly takes subtler, institutionalised forms (see also symbolic violence). Wumbolo made a similar point above about the concepts of monopoly on violence (according to which the state is intrinsically violent) and social conflict theory (in which society is understood to be founded on conflict). Definitively discerning the limits of violence, which we'd need to do in order to meaningfully enforce a prohibition on promoting violence, would require us to resolve dilemmas that continue to perplex philosophers and social scientists who've devoted careers to them. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 11:27, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete In today's context, these violate the above mentioned prohibition against advocating violence. "Action" is a euphemism for political violence, or "direct action". The same should be applied to advocacy of the death penalty. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:45, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
talk page or in a deletion review
). No further edits should be made to this page.


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