Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 183

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

is the new Israeli private news channel,

News 0404 does not profess a bias or attempt to make a point on their "about" page.[1] There is absolutely nothing wrong with sources in languages other than English (unless the standards changed over the last couple of years). However, their over-eagerness to embrace social media, a limited staff, and some potential sensationalism is worth being concerned. Hard to say without knowing the exact edit in question but, as usual, I would be surprised if whatever it is wasn't covered elsewhere and it probably isn't worth article space if it isn't.Cptnono (talk) 10:14, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

As I see we may follow on such RS considering 0404 as RS:

• jpost.com
• haaretz.co.il
• jewishpress.com --Igorp_lj (talk) 11:06, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• israelhayom.co.il --Igorp_lj (talk) 11:06, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
• timesofisrael.com
• walla.co.il
• ynet.co.il

--Igorp_lj (talk) 22:11, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

So if the

New York Times quoted Pravda, the citation ipso facto makes Pravda reliable for facts. Really, really. You should actually study Wikipedia practice and policy before making such queer inferences.Nishidani (talk

) 22:36, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

It's worse than that. Igorp's links are for mentions of 0404, not citations of it. Let's consider the first one (Jerusalem Post) for example. There are five hits. (1) Mention that 0404 posted a selfie of smiling settler youths who were "proud of themselves" after being arrested for violence against Arabs. (2) A credit to 0404 for a photoshopped image, no other mention. (3) Report of a complaint made against 0404 for publishing the private phone number of a politician leading to her harassment. (4) A mention of 0404 in an anonymous reader's letter. (5) Mention that 0404 posted a video. Out of all these, the only citation of 0404 for facts is the "proud of themselves" in (1), the rest are irrelevant or about 0404. Igorp, what is your excuse for posting such a misleading comment? Zero^talk 23:03, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

@Zero, regarding to jpost.com: you're only right, that jpost links are references only, but you missed one point: above mentioned comment is a copy from the article in jewishpress.com (not from my list and I'll add it too):

• "A passenger named Rina who travels on the Light Rail told the Hebrew-language 0404 website, “The Light Rail in the direction of Pisgat Ze’ev already terminates at Ammunition Hill and no longer enters the danger zone. The driver announces that the last stop is at Ammunition Hill, and tells everyone to disembark,” she said."
• A CityPass spokesperson confirmed the decision to 0404, saying it made sense in light of the reduced commuter ridership during the intermediate days of the Sukkot holiday".

So what would be your "excuse for posting such a misleading comment" (@Zero) based on one of my links only ? :)

Here are the references from others sites referenced either its pictures or as ~"according to news website 0404":

• http://www.haaretz.co.il/polopoly_fs/1.2106506.1377506285!/image/154803200.jpg_gen/derivatives/size_936xAuto/154803200.jpg
• http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.2322693
• http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.2308769
• http://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/1.2313194
• http://www.haaretz.co.il/gallery/art/1.2505736
• http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=12735
• http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=17667
• http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=20709
• http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=21475
• http://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/225015
• http://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/121391
• http://www.timesofisrael.com/righteous-dude-gives-back-nis-400000/
• http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2014/05/jews-e1400184606101.jpg
• http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2014/11/zoabi-e1415181343541.jpg
• http://www.timesofisrael.com/two-stabbed-in-attack-at-west-bank-supermarket/
• http://news.walla.co.il/item/2746626
• http://tech.walla.co.il/item/2729065
• http://news.walla.co.il/item/2760707
• http://news.walla.co.il/item/2760854
• http://news.walla.co.il/item/2799683
• http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4520357,00.html
• http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4556173,00.html
• http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4577339,00.html
• http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4434955,00.html
• http://images1.ynet.co.il/PicServer3/2013/11/09/4963295/496328901001590640360no.jpg
• http://images1.ynet.co.il/PicServer3/2013/09/30/4885763/488575901002769640360no.jpg
• http://images1.ynet.co.il/PicServer3/2013/08/04/4778592/47785851279959640360no.jpg

... --Igorp_lj (talk) 11:06, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani:, I only repeat here from my prev. reply to your comments:

--Igorp_lj (talk) 11:43, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

What's Israel Hayom doing there? It's run by a casino magnate,

WP:RS

, and its use of .0404 doesn't validate that site.

Igorp, as I have said elsewhere, very high standards are placed on the use of any website, of long-standing notability and often cited in scholarly works, which is deemed to have a favourable view of Palestinians. On Wikipedia, any material re Palestinians is expected to be sourced to mainstream newspapers, even if that means they are mainly Israeli or pro-Israeli. This high bar is never mentioned if there is a dispute about the use of unknown Israeli or Jewish, marginal, contributor-compiled websites with an agenda. I usually don't complain about editors using on occasion

WP:RS rules regarding the sourcing of facts, being frequently opinionated or rumour-mongering, and directed at particular community audiences. One cannot have it both ways, opposing anything but mainstream sources for Palestinians, while accepting any source for Israelis. This practice violatesd WP:NPOV by its deleterious effects to maintain underreportage on one of the two parties to an historic dispute. It's methodological hypocrisy. Ma'an is the regular, Western funded and independent Palestinian newssite, and is essentially unrhetorical and factual. There is no parallel between it, and private websites like .0404. lastly, please await for experienced independent commentary here.Nishidani (talk

) 11:58, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Real news organisations have their own means of fact checking and their own standards for citing claims from unreliable sources. Our standards are very clear; we aren't allowed to cite unreliable sources for facts at all. As Nishidani has spelt out with his usual eloquence, being quoted in a reliable source does not make something reliable. 0404 is a site where anyone, even you or me, can sign up and post "news stories" after signing an agreement that the site won't be held responsible for them. As far as wiki-reliability goes, it is hard to get lower than that. This source is not going to be accepted; you need to get over it. Zerotalk 12:23, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

So one claim gone, and next came. :) Now I'd ask both you to evaluate above-mentioned quote from Nishidani's Maan - is it suatable for RS or no:

• "As a result, local youths sometimes respond by targeting vehicles belonging to settlers on the area's main roads"

and to let me know what kind of "their own means of fact checking and their own standards" (@Zero) it has? --Igorp_lj (talk) 21:07, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I have found a new website that I think is reliable and could benefit Wikipedia. The link for the site is below and I would like to know if it could be considered a valid citation.

http://tvseriesfinale.com/

I would like to replace info in The Big Bang Theory. The source that is used is not updated due to a neilsen glitch in the ratings, and my source has updated info.

I would like to replace a fact in the US. Viewers Section in the

http://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/the-big-bang-theory-season-eight-ratings-33990/

Thank you for your patience. Jatremitiedi (talk) 00:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm curious about this as well. Look like there are 3 writers as listed here. Purports to be getting their info directly from Nielsen per "Ratings © 2014 The Nielsen Company. All Rights Reserved." I thought that Nielsen was subscription only service so I guess issue is if we can trust they have authorization to republish Nielsen and if we can trust they transcribe the info correctly. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:33, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Just noting that Jatremitiedi won't be able to use this source, or any other, as he is now indef blocked. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about discussing this issue here, but this is important for me to know the answer of the question as a wiki user. when i needed to saying about Literary Works of George Jordac(Christian Lebanese author),have used one of encyclopedia webs at draft of

Not sure... what can you tell us about the underlying website www.albabtainprize.org (note: the fact that the source is in Arabic does not affect it's reliability ... but it will make it harder for us to determine whether it is or isn't reliable... we may need to call in someone to translate it for us). Blueboar (talk) 18:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

My mean of encyclopedia is the book or websites that collected all information about a person or every subject by comprehensive summary like this encyclopedia website in English:[2]. That encyclopedia website [3] was introduced by me, is one of the encyclopedia website in Arabic. My main question is that is it acceptable to use encyclopedia web or books in Writing articles on Wikipedia? Thanks!

talk

) 11:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

As for the Encyclopædia Iranica (the first of the two sources you link) - on first glance, I would call it reliable. Looking at their website's "about us" page, it lists an editorial staff (and so I would assume that it probably meets our requirement for fact checking and oversight). I hesitate, however, because I don't know if it has a good (or bad) reputation for accuracy.

As for albabtainprize.org - again I can't offer an opinion on it because I don't read Arabic. Another editor may be able to do so. Blueboar (talk) 12:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Encyclopedias are generally "tertiary sources" and we should use the sources they cite for their articles - if they cite no sources, then normal practice is to dismiss their articles in any event. Technical or specialized encyclopedias generally show where they got their information. Collect (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Is this true? if one article at encyclopedias is written by known author and is taken from reliable sources, we can use it as reliable source!

talk

) 09:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Hey

Samaneh-davoudi: You can use the source if the authors are reliable and there is an obvious fact checking procedure. As you see, some encyclopedic sources are used here. Mhhossein (talk

) 03:33, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

salam alaykom

talk

) 09:27, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

@

Samaneh-davoudi: Alaykom al-Salaam, You're welcome. For that specific Arabic source, you should follow the same procedure; Who wrote the article you're going to use, Was that checked for the accuracy of the facts possibly mentioned there? and so on. Mhhossein (talk

) 13:11, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Hello. Myself & two other editors (62 & Galatz) are in a dispute as to who would be considered Total Nonstop Action Wrestling's majority shareholder. 62 & Galatz insist on:

|key_people = Robert Carter
(Majority stakeholder - 71%)

and are using these links as sources in an attempt to verify Robert as being TNA's majority shareholder. I have told them that the first two links would be no good, as the date attached to them makes them old & out-of-date, while the third link makes NO mention of Mr. Carter OR the company he's currently involved with, which would make that link no good as well. I, however, insist on:

|key_people = Janice Carter
(Majority stakeholder - 71%)

and have provided links to more recent, up-to-date articles, verifying Mrs. Carter's company, Panda Energy International, as the company's majority owner/shareholder, as well as Mrs. Carter herself as the company's owner; however, 62 & Galatz refuse to accept the links I have sourced as being correct & continue to revert the article to a version with their, albeit out-of-date & therefore incorrect, information contained within. So, I suppose the question is, would my sources take precedence over theirs, due to mine being more recent & therefore, up-to-date? 76.235.248.47 (talk) 13:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure what @76.235.248.47: is not understanding, I have tried to explain this many times to him. He is confusing control and shareholder. TNA is owned by Panda Energy. Panda Energy is owned by Panda Funds. Panda Funds ownership is listed here [4]. Janice is listed as CEO of Panda Energy, as you can see here [5]. @76.235.248.47: feels that since Janice controls Panda Energy that she is majority shareholder. However all shares of Panda Energy are owned by Panda Funds, she holds no shares in the entity, she is simply the CEO.

I have not utilized any of the sites referenced above by @

WP:PRIMARY which no where mentions Janice. - Galatz (talk

) 14:09, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Looking at that section of Panda Power Funds's website, NOWHERE does it state/imply, directly OR indirectly, that Panda Power Funds is Panda Energy's parent company. It DOES, however, state "Panda Energy, the predecessor organization to Panda Power Funds", but that would NOT necessarily mean Panda Power Funds is the parent company. Generally, a reference to "the predecessor organization" would mean the company that came before the current organization, not the parent company of the current organization. Now, as far as Mrs. Carter, she is the head executive of Panda Energy. Panda Energy, NOT Panda Power Funds, is the entity that owns 71% (a.k.a. the controlling stake) of TNA. Due to Mrs. Carter being Panda Energy's head executive, she would utilize Panda Energy's 71% controlling stake in TNA to control it. Now, when someone possesses the controlling stake in a company & uses that stake to run/control it, they are legally considered the majority shareholder of said company. Now, as far as Galatz's statement, what he isn't acknowledging is that back when Robert was with Panda Energy, he & Janice (co-)owned Panda Energy, as they founded the company. Robert was Panda Energy's head executive, while I'm not exactly sure what Janice's position was. Robert recently left Panda Energy & is now with Panda Power Funds, which, according to both the reference Galatz used (Panda Power Funds website), as well as the one I sourced from Bloomberg Businessweek, says/references/mentions absolutely NOTHING about Panda Power Funds being Panda Energy's parent company (again, "the predecessor organization" does NOT equate to meaning "parent company"). Therefore, his statement of Panda Energy being Panda Power Funds's subsidiary would be incorrect. Now, Janice would still retain the stake in Panda Energy she possessed back when Robert was with Panda Energy (when Robert & Janice were referenced as co-owners of said company), as her stake would NOT now belong to Robert's company. So, therefore, Galatz's statement that Janice holds no shares in the company is incorrect as well. So, what it comes down to is that Janice & Robert would still co-own Panda Energy, while Robert also owns Panda Power Funds. However, due to Janice taking over her husband's position as head executive of Panda Energy due to his departure from the company, she now controls Panda Energy & as a result of Panda Energy holding a 71% stake in TNA & her utilizing that stake to control/run TNA, she would be TNA's majority shareholder. Therefore, if you follow what I have stated, that would mean that the stances taken by both Galantz & the other editor would be wrong. It would also prove that the two of them know absolutely NOTHING about how business works, regardless of what they otherwise state. 76.235.248.47 (talk) 14:45, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

In fact, here's a news article ([6]) that I referenced in the 3O discussion on TNA's talk page; an article which directly states Mrs. Carter as co-owner of TNA (as she would utilize Panda Energy's 71% stake in TNA). So, that article would prove Galatz's statement about Mrs. Carter not owning shares in Panda Energy OR TNA to be incorrect. 76.235.248.47 (talk) 15:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

You are still not making sense. Listen to what you are saying Due to Mrs. Carter being Panda Energy's head executive, she would utilize Panda Energy's 71% controlling stake in TNA to control it. Now, when someone possesses the controlling stake in a company & uses that stake to run/control it, they are legally considered the majority shareholder of said company. The first part is true yes, she controls the stake Panda Energy has in TNA. That DOES NOT legally make them majority shareholder of the company as you stated. What that does is simply allow them to make decisions. Money and paperwork and stock certificates are involved in being a shareholder. Show me where he transferred that into her name? Congrats you have proven she is CEO, but that means nothing for ownership. - Galatz (talk) 16:25, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

And, again, you are purposely ignoring information that I have presented; I have no idea why. According to Panda Energy's own article:

The Carter family have owned a controlling stake in the company ever since, making Panda Energy a family business.

Ever since refers to when the company was founded, in 1982. So, Panda Energy's own article makes you a liar when you claim that Mrs. Carter owns no stake in Panda Energy. Now, due to the Carters' stake in the company, before Robert's departure from Panda Energy, he & Janice were generally referenced as (co-)owners of Panda Energy; that would mean that the two of them own enough stake in Panda Energy to run/control it. Now, as I have pointed out time & time again, using both the Bloomberg Businessweek article, as well as your own source (Panda Power Funds website), NOWHERE is it stated OR implied, directly OR indirectly, that Panda Power Funds is Panda Energy's parent company. "The predecessor organization" does NOT equate to "parent company"; "predecessor organization" refers to the entity that existed before the current company. So, unless you can show me some reliable source that states Mrs. Carter gave up her stake in Panda Energy at ANY point, you are continuing to be wrong about Mrs. Carter not possessing stake in Panda Energy.

And, the fact of the matter is, when someone utilizes the controlling stake in a company to run/control it, they indeed are generally referred to as majority shareholder. For example, Vince McMahon currently possesses the controlling stake in WWE; that would make him the majority shareholder. WWE's own article confirms that. He is also currently Chairman & CEO of the company, meaning as CEO, he is the head executive, giving him the power to run/control WWE.

So, at this point, you have been proven wrong, not only about Mrs. Carter not possessing stake in Panda Energy (Panda Energy's article confirms she indeed DOES own stake in Panda Energy), but about her not being viewed as majority shareholder of TNA (Vince McMahon holds the controlling stake in WWE [much like how Panda Energy (Mrs. Carter's company) holds the controlling stake in TNA], therefore he is WWE's majority shareholder). So, I have proven that not only is she CEO of Panda Energy, but that she IS indeed part owner of Panda Energy alongside Robert, and thereby meaning she, NOT Robert, would be viewed as majority shareholder of TNA through her position as head executive of Panda Energy, TNA's parent company. 76.235.248.47 (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

This entire thread is

Gaijin42 is wise. Claims like this should be directly sourced, or removed. bobrayner (talk) 23:44, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, I have sourced TWO news articles ("TNA's current owner, Panda Energy CEO Janice Carter" & "Janice Carter, who is part owner of TNA") which directly state Janice being (co-)owner of TNA. Neither Galatz, nor the third editor involved in this dispute, has provided ANYTHING which states Robert OR Panda Power Funds owning ANY stake in Panda Energy OR TNA. So, according to Gaijin42's statement, the two news articles I've linked to above prove Janice, NOT Robert, in fact IS TNA's majority shareholder. So, I would like to thank Gaijin42 for weighing in & helping prove me correct. 76.235.248.47 (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

You are missing the point that everyone is disagreeing with you on that fact, which should be one thing. Second you still have not sourced it with a

WP:RS everything you are mentioning is not a reliable source. - Galatz (talk

) 14:12, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it's only been the anonymous editor that inserted out-of-date & therefore incorrect & unusable information & the editor from the 3O discussion who agree with your stance [Panda Power Funds being Panda Energy's parent company & therefore, Robert Carter controlling TNA]. The two editors that replied here have said NOTHING that backs your argument, other than stating that information should only be inserted when backed by a reliable source (my information IS backed by two reliable sources [news articles/reports]), so you are wrong on everyone disagreeing with me, as well as me not providing reliable sources. And, I have provided more than one reliable source (news articles/reports) (satisfying

WP:PRIMARY) which directly state my claim about Mrs. Carter's stake in Panda Energy & TNA, therefore backing up my claim. However, since you have edited the article to contain the information we both agree on, the dispute/discussion/argument needs to end here & now. 76.235.248.47 (talk

) 15:00, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

It has just a couple weeks to go, and we haven't posted notice of it here. So now I am doing so: Talk:G._Edward_Griffin#RfC:_.22conspiracy_theorist.22_in_first_sentence, in the hope of getting more input for the closer. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

While there is an RfC (dated 3 January 2015) still ongoing at

Sources supported as reliable that have raised question

Some of the sources contain less than notable mention of Griffin (not even qualifying as trivial) but are still being used to justify contentious material in this BLP.

• [7] - Srich32977 parsed the first 5 sources footnoted in the lede. Below is an indented list with some of the same sources plus two more:
  • [8] - only parenthetical mention in a totally unrelated article;
  • [9] - partisan bias that was used to criticize the subject, therefore Beck can be used to dispute it;
  • [10] - partisan bias actually aimed at criticizing Ron Paul using Griffin to do so;
  • [11] - passing mention which contains two references to Griffin, the first listing Griffin as an "author, lecturer, filmmaker", the 2nd referencing conspiracy-theorist;
  • [12] - May 1979 - RS, but antiquated. See MSKCC below;
  • [13] - Feb 1984 - RS, but antiquated. See MSKCC and PUBMED below which were criticized as unreliable sources;

Other questionable sources, some of which don't pass the smell test for

• [14] - Popular Paranoia cited in the last sentence of the lede.
• [15] - An old archive of Public Eye (partisan website along the lines of Media Matters) used to discredit the BLP. Their disclaimer states: "Please remember that this is an archive of an older website for researchers, and it is not being updated. Therefore, much of the material here is not current."
• [16] - NIH (1984) report used to justify the term, "a canonical example of quackery", with regards to a topic in Griffin's book, World Without Cancer. Note: While I do not dispute proven science to be the prevailing view, there were approaches to 30 yo research that no longer apply in the 21st Century, therefore citations using updated scientific research are more desirable, correct?
• Inclusion of inline templates for not in citation given or citation needed in the article itself.

Sources that were criticized as not reliable that have raised question

The following sources have, for the most part, been criticized as not RS for citing even generalizations of positive reviews about Griffin as an author and lecturer. I suggested using them to balance (NPOV, V, UNDUE, BLP) what critics have alleged about Griffin and his books:

• [17] Forbes - (ranked 75 US Alexa) - This battle continued up through the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, whose rather dubious creation was nicely described in G. Edward Griffin’s book The Creature from Jekyll Island.
• [18] RT - (67 Russia, 382 Global) - Griffin also takes us back in time, and reminds us how the Fed even came to be – the money trust meeting in secret on Jekyll Island in order to draft a cartel agreement that would eventually be known as the "Federal Reserve Act. RT is consistently under scrutiny by its competitors and critics. Their nominations for an International Emmy as a top News Source is a recognition given by "a membership-based organization comprised of leading media and entertainment figures from over 50 countries and 500 companies from all sectors of television including Internet, mobile and technology."
• [19] NPR.org - (129 US Alexa) - quote by Senator Bunning to Bernanke: You put the printing presses into overdrive to fund the government's spending and hand out cheap money to your masters on Wall Street. Your Fed has become the Creature from Jekyll Island. Thank you.
• www.naturalnews.com/023345.html ^{[unreliable fringe source?]} Natural News - (2,023 US Alexa)
• [20] GoldSilver.com - (ranked 22,303 US Alexa). G. Edward Griffin is an American film producer, author, and political lecturer. He is best known as the author of The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look At The Federal Reserve, a critique of much modern economic theory and practice, specifically the Federal Reserve System.
• [21], Casey Research - (35,748 US Alexa)
• [22], The Daily Bell - (49,221 US Alexa)
• [23] Financial Sense - (ranked 49,730 US Alexa). "Listed in Who’s Who in America, he is well known because of his talent for researching difficult topics and presenting them in clear terms that all can understand. One of his best-known books is his critical history of the beginnings of the Federal Reserve, The Creature from Jekyll Island.
• [24] Corbett Report - (88,282 US Alexa) - not to be confused with TV's Colbert
• [25] Social Studies of Science, an international peer reviewed academic journal — May, 1979 - Vol 9, pgs 139-166;
• [26] - update from Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center which states: With the recent discovery of anticancer properties of amygdalin through previously unknown mechanisms (12) (13) (14) (15) (16), there is renewed interest in developing this agent as an anticancer treatment.
  • [27] - PUBMED — Anti-tumor promoting effect of glycosides from Prunus persica seeds. (see MSKCC update);
  • [28] - PUBMED — Amygdalin inhibits genes related to cell cycle in SNU-C4 human colon cancer cells. (see MSKCC update);
  • [29] - PUBMED — Amygdalin induces apoptosis in human cervical cancer cell line HeLa cells. (see MSKCC update);
  • [30] - PUBMED — Amygdalin isolated from Semen Persicae (Tao Ren) extracts induces the expression of follistatin in HepG2 and C2C12 cell lines. (see MSKCC update);
  • [31] - PUBMED — Amygdalin blocks bladder cancer cell growth in vitro by diminishing cyclin A and cdk2. (see MSKCC update);
  • [32] - PUBMED — which states This small study indicates that amygdalin in the doses employed produces few clinical side effects. A definite hazard of cyanide toxic reaction must be assumed, however, and possible long-term side effects remain unknown.
• [33] which documents this particular doctor's clinical history, and what inspired Griffin's book;
• [34] only as a general reference to statements in the thesis that are well-sourced;
• [35] October 2008 research by Giuseppe Nacci, M.D., 500 pgs from EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE: 1,700 official scientific publications 1,750 various bibliographical references with particular emphasis on pgs 17-25, and pgs 159-166 (which includes documented case histories);

Disclaimer - Griffin is a BLP, but one of the books he has written brings PS-Fringe into play. I am not advocating for laetrile (amygdalin, B17) by any means, and I certainly am not suggesting that we, as editors, promote Griffin's book, World Without Cancer, as the end-all cure for cancer. Hell no! I am simply asking the community for input re: RS. My only purpose here is to fix the

No offense, but things are likely to go better if you can condense this down a bit. Cut the obvious dross (Natural News, goldandsilver.com, etc.) so that we can focus on the sources requiring more thought.

talk

) 23:43, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Thx, Boris - I probably could have gotten away with listing a few of the PUBMED sources. If one is considered a RS, they all are, right? Atsme☯^Consult 23:48, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

@Atsme: My comments here are general notes; I have not specifically examined the sources provided here. I am only posting this to clarify some apparent misconceptions about how sources and reliability work.

A common misunderstanding among editors who don't have a medical or scientific background is that PubMed is a 'source' or publisher; it is not. PubMed is just a really big index (sort of like a library catalog) that collects citation information for a vast amount of science- and medicine-related content from thousands of different journals. So of this material is of high quality, some...not so much. For instance, the first "PubMed" link above (this one) is just a pointer to a catalog entry for a 2003 paper by Fukuda et al. published originally in Biological & pharmaceutical bulletin.

A second common misconception is that a source can be declared "reliable", and that declaration is a fixed, absolute judgement. Reliability depends both on the source itself and on how it is used. This board cannot provide a blanket approval that a source is reliable for all purposes. Some of the most important guidelines for evaluating the use of specific sources to support specific claims can be found in

WP:MEDRS. (Of course, a source can be reliable for a particular claim and yet still be omitted from an article for reasons of (ir)relevance, undue weight, or to avoid implying conclusions not actually supported. The greater context of the article matters.) TenOfAllTrades(talk

) 00:19, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Thx, for that explanation. So with reference to "greater context", any passing mention or parenthetical mention (trivial) would not be supported, correct? Is there a statement regarding trivial mention somewhere other than establishing notability, or would it apply anywhere? Atsme☯^Consult 00:40, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

(ec) I'm not precisely sure what you're asking. Are you trying to establish notability of a topic – that is, whether or not there is enough material out there to create a proper Wikipedia article – or are you asking about reliability—that is, whether or not a given source supports a particular claim in an article? Those are two often very different questions.

This noticeboard is for addressing questions of reliability. If you read the instructions that appear at the top of this page whenever you edit it (or whenever you create a new section), you'll find three specific pieces of information that you should provide with any request here: a clear identification of the source you would like to use, the article where you would like to use it, and – and this is important – the specific text that you would like to use it to support.

Consider what you see when reading the introduction to an academic paper. You'll read a sentence (or paragraph), and then you'll see a footnote or other citation that identifies the source for the assertions in the preceding text. That's the type of information that we need here, on this noticeboard, to evaluate the question of reliability. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:46, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

That's a huge laundry list, and it's not really our job to sort through those at RSN as you present. Instead, you need to specify the specific content either used or proposed and ask whether a one specific or handful of sources is reliable for that specific content. We can't give blanket statements of reliability without the content as TenOfAllTrades mentioned. That's why we have the note at the top of the page under "Before posting, please be sure to include the following information. . ." As it appears you were told at the article talk page, you need to base the discussion on a specific piece of content, so pay special attention to "3. Content. The exact statement(s) or other content in the article that the source is supporting. . ." Otherwise we can't really do anything at RSN to help until we have that specific context.

talk

) 01:27, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

@TenOfAllTrades: - I apologize for any confusion my original post may have caused. I have narrowed down my questions to specifics. (Sidebar): The reason I listed the PUBMED sources was because MSKCC cited them as the basis for their decision, which is why I used indention.

1. I believe the MSKCC announcement to conduct further research is notable as well as relevant to Griffin's BLP regarding his advocacy for further research as stated in his book, World Without Cancer. Therefore, my question is "Do the sources pass the acid test for reliability with regards to inclusion of MSKCC's announcement? It will be represented for what it is - hypotheses based on lab experiments - representative of the minority view, making sure it does not receive prominence over mainstream views. It also serves to update the older hypotheses now cited, some of which are 20 to 30 years old.
2. [36] - is this book an acceptable source since the author of that book is the physician who inspired Griffin to write his book, and it also includes the information Griffin used when writing his book?
3. [37] October 2008 research by Giuseppe Nacci, M.D., 500 pgs from EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE: 1,700 official scientific publications 1,750 various bibliographical references with particular emphasis on pgs 17-25, and pgs 159-166 (which includes documented case histories) - this is published information (also in book form) authored by a reputable physician. Is it a RS for supporting Griffin's minority view with regards to why he believes what he does? It is my understanding that minority views can be/should be represented as long as they are reliably sourced, adhere to NPOV, and do not give precedence over mainstream views. The fact that the information directly relates to what Griffin advocates and has written about establishes relevance. Yes or no?
4. You asked, "are you asking about reliability—that is, whether or not a given source supports a particular claim in an article?" Yes, that is what I am asking. If a partisan source or sources include passing mention (trivial, unsourced) of a subject using contentious and/or pejorative terminology in say, an article about a politician, and somewhere in that article they mention one of Griffin's books or Griffin himself in a parenthetical phrase, or brief sentence, (a) does such mention justify such opinions to be presented as statements of fact in Wiki voice, or is it still considered opinion, and (b) what if there are equally as many "reliable" sources that dispute such claims either by omission, or direct denial, including denial by Griffin himself? I understand why such sources could be used to express the opinion of critics, but I don't understand how those opinions could be considered factual based on trivial mention in partisan sources. Yes, or no? Please explain.

I am very appreciative of your intelligible responses, and look forward to further input from you and other knowledgeable editors who are well-versed in this subject. What I learn from the noticeboard regarding the PS-Fringe aspects of proper presentation will also help with regards to the parallel issues relating to Griffin's other books, such as The Creature From Jekyll Island which helps explain the structure of the highly controversial, Federal Reserve System. Atsme☯^Consult 19:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Again, can you provide specific content for those points? Right now you're listing sources and asking general questions, but we need to see what it would be actually sourced to. We can't say a source is reliable or not otherwise.

talk

) 23:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I was actually asking TenOfAllTrades. I provided the sources, the diffs, the article name, and "content in the article that the source is supporting". It's pretty straightforward. Example in my initial post above, I am questioning sources that were used to discredit a BLP - contentious material. This board does not require that I include the "exact statement' which I choose not to do because I still believe it is a BLP violation. Also, my question about passing mention is pretty straightforward as well, and shouldn't require exact statements. Thank you for trying to help, but with all due respect, I prefer input from editors who have more experience than my own. I believe editors who have actually created articles and/or experienced at least one GA review tend to be a little more cognizant to RS issues and the questions I've asked. Atsme☯^Consult 13:57, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Re: This board does not require that I include the "exact statement" True... we don't require you to do anything. However, we probably won't be able to answer the question without knowing the "exact statement". The reliability of a source frequently depends on the specific context in which it is used. Without knowing that context, we can't answer the question. Blueboar (talk) 14:13, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I try to simplify with a few direct statements you can dig your teeth into:

• Edward Flaherty, an academic economist writing for Political Research Associates, characterized Griffin's description of the secret meeting on Jekyll Island as "conspiratorial", "amateurish", and "suspect". [38] An archived partisan opinion that is contentious and used only to discredit the subject. Acceptable?
• Forbes - positive references to Griffin - example: Nathan Lewis, author, investor, and contributor to Forbes contends that the ongoing battle over banking "continued up through the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, whose rather dubious creation was nicely described in G. Edward Griffin’s book The Creature from Jekyll Island." (Not worded exactly but close to what I am working on). Acceptable?
• "Griffin's websites refer visitors to doctors, clinics, and hospitals with alternative cancer treatments, including sellers of laetrile."<---not in the citation provided (see citation template) [Lagnado, Lucette (2000-03-22). "Laetrile Makes a Comeback Selling to Patients Online". Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 2008-02-29]. I couldn't find the other source [Jones, Marianna (1976-10-11). "Cure or fraud?". Walla Walla Union-Bulletin. Retrieved 2008-02-29]. Acceptable?
• "Landau concludes that although World Without Cancer "is an emotional plea for the unrestricted use of the Laetrile as an anti-tumor agent, the scientific evidence to justify such a policy does not appear within it" cited source: [39] <----written in 1976.
  • (a) I don't see anything that resembles "an emotional plea" in Griffin's book.
  • (b) While Griffin does advocate for medical freedom of choice as an amendment to the US Constitution, the book itself includes the following disclaimer: "I am a researcher, not a physician; I am not qualified to practice medicine in any way; and I am not recommending Laetrile in the treatment of cancer."
  • (c) Chapter 26, pg 368, World Without Cancer states Areas of need for further research with vitamin B17; how the Laetrile controversy differs from medical controversies of the past; and analogy of biological and political cancer; and a scenario in which both will be conquered together.
• MSKCC website [40] to quote their statement for the purpose of updating the 30+ year old sources cited in the article now. With the recent discovery of anticancer properties of amygdalin through previously unknown mechanisms (12) (13) (14) (15) (16), there is renewed interest in whether this agent may have potential as an anticancer treatment. The parenthetical numbers in the statement represent MSKCC's citations for 5 studies published in journals such as PONE. (See indented list above).
• [41] October 2008 research by Giuseppe Nacci, M.D., 500 pgs from EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE: 1,700 official scientific publications 1,750 various bibliographical references with particular emphasis on pgs 17-25, and pgs 159-166 (which includes documented case histories) <---- the book by nuclear medicine specialist, Nacci, supports some of the things Griffin wrote in World Without Cancer. Plan is to use a quote, or possibly a sentence or two relevant to Griffin's book. For example, a statement Nacci wrote about Richardson, the doctor who inspired Griffin's book.

I don't think I can clarify my questions more than what I already have in the mountain of text above. Your input will be appreciated Atsme☯^Consult 18:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

I can safely say I am loath to get involved in any detail in this particular dispute, which frankly appears only tangentially to touch on

WP:WEIGHT

) regarding how to represent the opinions of a person who seems to be known for publicly espousing a substantial number of decidedly non-mainstream views. The questions that Atsme are presenting appear to be part of a much larger dispute (mostly on the article talk page?) over how to balance or represent a range of sources regarding the article's subject.

It seems to me that seeking a declaration from this noticeboard that particular (and favorable-to-Griffin) sources and proposed texts meet a 'reliability' test misses the point of the dispute(s) on the article talk page, and might be misinterpreted or misread as an endorsement of a particular text over and above other sources or wordings being discussed. That is, the issue of

WP:WEIGHT seems to be a concern here—while it may be possible to find individual, nominally 'reliable' sources which cast Griffin and his theories in a favorable light, by examining those sources in isolation we would fail to address whether or not a substantial majority or preponderance of reliable sources hold a negative or contrary position. Bluntly, cherry-picking sources which are friendly to promoters of fringe theories is an old problem on Wikipedia. TenOfAllTrades(talk

) 22:14, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

No, it actually was about the sources, but I now realize that isn't the issue. Your comment, cherry-picking sources which are friendly to promoters of fringe theories reveals an even bigger problem, and quite frankly, it flies in the face of NPOV. The negative effects caused by

WP:WEIGHT, but not in the way you perceive it. Kindest regards ~~ Atsme☯^Consult

03:28, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, at some point you are going to have to start listening to what other editors are telling you.

WP:STICK. I do hope you can heed what folks are telling you. Jytdog (talk

) 14:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Atsme, when you argue that laetrile is legitimate based on a tiny handful of cherry-picked sources, you destroy, in one blow, any credibility your arguments might have. We have been over this at length before.

WP:FRINGE

all apply.

You are talking here about something for which small in-vitro studies showed some promise, and whihc is advocated by quacks, but which is stated by large scale independent reviews, government bodies, charities of substantial international reputation and many others, to be quackery. You are asserting that based on the small in-vitro studies, it is legitimate to advance this quackery, because otherwise we'd have to state that someone who advances the quackery is advancing quackery, and that would, in your opinion, violate

WP:BLP

.

The problem is, it is still quackery.

It really doesn't matter who advocates for it, or how passionately. Read this para from our article:

In terms of fraudulent quack cancer treatments, there is probably none that is more totally busted than this one. Your wall of text - essentially a Gish gallop across the quackscape of laetrile advocacy - only indicates that your judgment on this issue is simply wrong.

Sooner or later you are going to have to start listening to other people, drop the stick and walk away, or accept a restriction on your editing. There are no other possible outcomes at this point. There really aren't.

I do not doubt your sincerity for a moment. Just like the lay advocates of laetrile, you are wrong. Just like the lay advocates of laetrile, allowing your statements to stand would make the world a worse place.

I can't really show you where you are going wrong without a massive wall of text of my own, so here goes:

1. I believe the MSKCC announcement to conduct further research is notable as well as relevant to Griffin's BLP regarding his advocacy for further research as stated in his book, World Without Cancer. Therefore, my question is "Do the sources pass the acid test for reliability with regards to inclusion of MSKCC's announcement? It will be represented for what it is - hypotheses based on lab experiments - representative of the minority view, making sure it does not receive prominence over mainstream views. It also serves to update the older hypotheses now cited, some of which are 20 to 30 years old.

No, the MSKCC announcement is not relevant, because they are merely repeating primary research that ma or may not find some minor use for one or more of the chemicals. Laetrile is not just unsupported, it is stated by reliable independent review sources to be refuted. That is, it's not just that there is no evidence it cures cancer, but that there is positive evidence that it does not cure cancer. The fact that advocates have shouted so long and loud that now MSKCC is having to go round the loop again in order to bury the conspiracist claptrap of Ralph W. Moss and his ilk, does not confer legitimacy, and won't confer it until phase 3 clinical trials conclusively prove their claims - which won't happen because no cancer treatment in the world is as effective over such a broad spectrum of different cancers as advocates claim laetrile to be.

Read this article form the Cochrane library on why more studies are not needed.

1. [42] - is this book an acceptable source since the author of that book is the physician who inspired Griffin to write his book, and it also includes the information Griffin used when writing his book?

Case histories are the least reliable form of medical evidence, and case histories of quack treatments are far and away the least reliable case histories. I can find you a book of case histories making similarly extravagant claims for homeopathy, which is the medical equivalent of young-Earth creationism when it comes to evidential support. The author can be forgiven p- the book was published in 1977, before latrile was considered refuted, but that is no excuse now.

See this CA: Cancer Journal interview with Robert C. Eyerly, M.D. Chairman, the Committee on Unproven Methods of Cancer Management, The American Cancer Society, for the timeline and context of that book. And no, books do not trump peer-reviewed publications in medicine, ever.

1. [43] October 2008 research by Giuseppe Nacci, M.D., 500 pgs from EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE: 1,700 official scientific publications 1,750 various bibliographical references with particular emphasis on pgs 17-25, and pgs 159-166 (which includes documented case histories) - this is published information (also in book form) authored by a reputable physician. Is it a RS for supporting Griffin's minority view with regards to why he believes what he does? It is my understanding that minority views can be/should be represented as long as they are reliably sourced, adhere to NPOV, and do not give precedence over mainstream views. The fact that the information directly relates to what Griffin advocates and has written about establishes relevance. Yes or no?

That is a self-published document, as far as I can make out, advocating a "Thousand Plants against Cancer without Chemo-Therapy". It's trivially easy to find papers in junk journals, and even occasionally good journals, advocating quack treatments. There's an entire industry built on it, formerly known as CAM and now rebranded "integrative medicine" (I would love to practise integrative engineering on the cars of these quacks, replacing artificial chemical brake fluid with natural water and sending them off onto a ghost ramp).

While the document says "FROM EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE", it is not from any journal of that name or indeed any journal at all. Search for laetrile, you find references like:

Harold Manner Center has been temporarily shut down. They are best known for their use of laetrile in treating cancer. The clinic is in Mexico.

A clinic that even Mexico shits down, is some kind of hell-hole. Seriously.

His references for the section on laetrile:

1419) Bruce Halstead, Amygdalin (Laetrile) Therapy, Los Altos, CA: Choice Publications. 1978. In Culbert, "Apricot Power," pp.: 72. Not peer-reviewed, fails

WP:MEDRS

by a wide margin.

1420) Ralph W. Moss, The Cancer Industry: Unravelling the Politics (New York: Paragon House, 1989), 134-5. Unreliable, fails

WP:MEDRS

, written by a man with a reputation for promoting quackery who was sacked from a minor job at MSKCC (which he misrepresented as much more senior) for falsely claiming that laetrile had been suppressed.

1421) N.M. Ellison et al., Special Report on Laetrile: The NCI Laetrile Review, New England Journal of Medicine. 299(10) pp: 549-552 (1978). Reliable, overwhelmingly negative.

... In Office of Technology Assessment, Unconventional Cancer Treatments, pp.. 102. Also overwhelmingly negative, but (guess what?) shows that the John Birch Society are historically among the proponents of this fraudulent treatment.

1422) Michael L.Culbert, D.Sc., Apricot Power: Laetrile as the Marine Corps of the `Alternative' Revolution, Townsend Letter for Doctors (June 1995), pp.: 71. Canonically unreliable. Fails

WP:RS

.

1423) Ralph W. Moss, The Cancer Industry: Unravelling the Politics (New York: Paragon House, 1989), pp. 135. As above, special pleading from an advocate, not

WP:RS

for anything other than Moss' view of the world, which is already (a) well documented and (b) wrong.

1424) Michael L.Culbert, D.Sc., Apricot Power: Laetrile as the Marine Corps of the `Alternative' Revolution, Townsend Letter for Doctors (June 1995), pp.: 77. Unreliable, see above.

1425) Michael L.Culbert, D.Sc., Apricot Power: Laetrile as the Marine Corps of the `Alternative' Revolution, Townsend Letter for Doctors (June 1995), pp.: 77. Unreliable, see above.

1426) Michael L.Culbert, D.Sc., Apricot Power: Laetrile as the Marine Corps of the `Alternative' Revolution, Townsend Letter for Doctors (June 1995), pp.: 78. Unreliable, see above.

1427). N.M. Ellison et al., Special Report on Laetrile: The NCI Laetrile Review, New England Journal of Medicine 299(10) pp.:549-552 (1978). Reliable and resoundingly negative, see above.

1428) C.G. Moertel et al., A Pharmacologic and Toxicological Study of Amygdalin, Journal of the American Medical Association 245(6), pp.:591-4 (1981). Reliable but irrelevant to efficacy; did show evidence of cyanide toxicity.

1429) Office of Technology Assessment, Unconventional Cancer Treatments, 107. Reliable, overall negative, see above (the author seems to be cherry-picking paragraphs he likes).

1430) M.L. Culbert, correspondence, New England Journal of Medicine 307(2) pp.:119 (1982). Correspondence, not peer-reviewed.

1431) Office of Technology Assessment, Unconventional Cancer Treatments, 107. As before.

1432) Michael L.Culbert, D.Sc., Apricot Power: Laetrile as the Marine Corps of the `Alternative' Revolution, Townsend Letter for Doctors (June 1995), pp.: 81. Unreliable, see above.

1433) Walters, Options, 184. Unreliable, see above.

1434) Michael L.Culbert, D.Sc., Apricot Power: Laetrile as the Marine Corps of the `Alternative' Revolution, Townsend Letter for Doctors (June 1995), pp.: 79-80. Unreliable, see above.

1435)Anonymous, "The Committee for Freedom of Choice." In Townsend Letter for Doctors, pp.: 196-7. Unreliable, see above.

1436) Michael L.Culbert, D.Sc., Apricot Power: Laetrile as the Marine Corps of the `Alternative' Revolution, Townsend Letter for Doctors (June 1995), pp.: 78. Unreliable, see above.

1437) Luther Bohanon, "Opinion in the Case of Glen L. Rutherford vs. U.S.A. In the U.S. District Court for the Western Region of Oklahoma." No. CIV-75-0218-B. December 5, 1977. In Moss, The Cancer Industry, 150. Case here, irrelevant to efficacy, establishes only that Griffin demanded to be heard.

Seriously, you have asserted at second-hand that this document's conclusions should be taken seriously, but the author advocates multiple mutually contradictory quack remedies and the sources he cites are quote-mined, unreliable, irrelevant, or contradict his case.

See also The case against laetrile, the fraudulent cancer remedy. Fraudulent. Not a word lightly bandied around in the literature.

You should have checked in detail before making your claim. Absolutely no part of that source stands up. None of it. It's an unreliable document of unreliable provenance making unreliable claims based on unreliable sources and, in the few reliable sources, unreliable methods of analysis (specifically, cherry-picking).

I cannot stress this enough: you should not even have considered advancing this as a source. It shows only that you haven't a clue about the subject.

1. You asked, "are you asking about reliability—that is, whether or not a given source supports a particular claim in an article?" Yes, that is what I am asking. If a partisan source or sources include passing mention (trivial, unsourced) of a subject using contentious and/or pejorative terminology in say, an article about a politician, and somewhere in that article they mention one of Griffin's books or Griffin himself in a parenthetical phrase, or brief sentence, (a) does such mention justify such opinions to be presented as statements of fact in Wiki voice, or is it still considered opinion, and (b) what if there are equally as many "reliable" sources that dispute such claims either by omission, or direct denial, including denial by Griffin himself? I understand why such sources could be used to express the opinion of critics, but I don't understand how those opinions could be considered factual based on trivial mention in partisan sources. Yes, or no? Please explain.

There is a hierarchy of sources. You are picking documents from the bottom of the hierarchy - or in some cases below it - but Wikipedia does not do that.

• American Cancer Society
• Cancer Research UK
• National Cancer Institute

I am very appreciative of your intelligible responses, and look forward to further input from you and other knowledgeable editors who are well-versed in this subject. What I learn from the noticeboard regarding the PS-Fringe aspects of proper presentation will also help with regards to the parallel issues relating to Griffin's other books, such as The Creature From Jekyll Island which helps explain the structure of the highly controversial, Federal Reserve System.

If you are "appreciative" then why do you ignore all responses that contradict you? Seriously? And the Fed is not controversial, not the way Griffin claims. Some people claim that the existence of income tax is controversial. You can certainly state that income tax is controversial (nobody likes paying it), but its existence is controversial only to a lunatic fringe. Thus it is with the Fed. Its existence is controversial only to cranks, some of its actions are controversial to a greater or lesser extent with the vast majority of humanity for whom its existence is nonetheless entirely unproblematic.

You have established only one thing: that Griffin does not just write about the laetrile conspiracy theory, but actually subscribes to it. You have succeeded in strengthening the case for characterising him as a conspiracy theorist, but have entirely failed to establish that his advocacy of laetrile is anything other than delusional. The only saving grace is that unlike some advocates, he is at least not making money direct from defrauding desperate people with terminal disease. Guy (Help!) 19:19, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Guy, can I use your last comment in the article? With the utmost respect to all who have taken such an incredible amount of time to advise me, I THANK YOU. WP may be new to me, but writing isn't. I've probably been writing for longer than most of you are old. Scary to think time has flown by so quickly. The only reason I mentioned it is to demonstrate that my concerns are purely BLP related. I have no intention of getting into a PS-Fringe debate, and I am certainly not going to "promote" anything or try to debunk anything, either. That isn't my job or purpose. I come from old school journalism - cut my teeth on Walter Cronkite, Chet Huntley and David Brinkley back when the news was really the news, and not the partisanship spew it is now. I worked for a short time with CNN a few years after Ted first launched it. Curious - how many of you remember John Cameron Swayze? Anyway, I was one of those little nerd girls who loved to play baseball and ride horses, but who enjoyed reading the Encyclopedia Britannica during quiet time. As a wild guess, I've probably written thousands of television scripts, 7 screenplays, hundreds of magazine articles, edited that many more, wrote/produced commercial videos/dvds, PSAs, countless commercial spots, etc. that, in the aggregate, would easily convert into millions of edits in Wiki voice. I've taught, lectured and served on panels, some of my work is still being cited today, and I pioneered of a new format for television. That's all I need to reveal, but you know what's crazy? I am just as proud of my 5 GAs and 1 FA on WP as I am the many awards I've earned as a writer/publisher/producer. That should tell you a little something about who I am, what I think of this project, and why my focus is on getting the article right. Kindest regards....--Atsme☯^Consult 00:11, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

off-topic response: Camel Caravan of News. Ed Herlihy was the voice of Fox Movietone News. Clayton "Bud" Collyer was Superman on the radio. Don Herbert was "Mr. Wizard" and Jon Gnagy had the first "network" television program. I out-old you. Collect (talk) 00:53, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

We're taking the time because we think you are really a very nice person with the potential to do much more of the same tremendous work. Remember, though: a writer normally starts by deciding on an angle. Science doesn't. Laetrile has been illegally sold and promoted for decades, and many sad, desperate, dying people have been bled dry of their life savings pursuing a chimaera. This is not a morally neutral subject. The laetrile fraud is morally repugnant, a con of the very worst kind, and if it was attempted in my country the majority of those involved in promoting it would be prosecuted (you speak of your past as a writer: last year I was one of a small group who succeeded in getting two cancer quacks convicted and fined, and their advertisements stopped - I am proud of this, as you will no doubt guess). The overall tone of any coverage of laetrile must reflect the fact that it is generally dismissed as quackery of the most vile kind. Your sourcing looks more like that of a journalist - you do not apply the necessary scientific filter of hierarchy of evidential quality. Griffin writes books based on sources he likes the look of. The majority of sources don't say what he wants, especially the most robust ones, so he ignores them. That's why he advocates batshit crazy conspiracist memes like chemtrails. we can document that dispassionately, but as soon as we stat applying the same judgment as he does, we cease being Wikipedians and become advocates. My chum Dr. Gorski would change his mind in a snap if credible evidence emerged that laetrile cures cancer. It's unlikely to happen, but it was unlikely that ulcers would turn out to be caused by acid-living bacteria. Science is like that: it doesn't give a damn who advocates a thing, only whether it's true. A good rule of thumb here is that if a source is not in PubMed, it's not reliable. Go with that, eh?

And beware the false equivalence that places lone scientists against antivaxers, lone evolutionary biologists against creationists, lone climate scientists against the execrable Monckton. For every Wikipedia-compliant source you can find pimping laetrile, there will be a hundred or more showing it doesn't work. Guy (Help!) 00:50, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

There are five sources in the stub article on Violet Brown, an old woman:

1. "Oldest Validated Living Supercentenarians". Gerontology Research Group. Retrieved 18 December 2012.
2. Tashieka Mair (16 July 2007). The independent Mrs Violet Brown. The Jamaica Star. Accessed January 2015.
3. Horace Hines (29 March 2013). An extraordinary senior citizen - ‘Aunt V’ turns 113. Jamaica Observer. Accessed January 2015.
4. Horace Hines (19 March 2009). Violet Moss-Brown... 109, not out. Jamaica Observer. Accessed January 2015.
5. Sheena Gayle (8 March 2010). 110-y-o Trelawny woman reveals secret to long life. Jamaica Gleaner. Accessed January 2014.

Between them they give three different dates of birth for her. Is there any reason to consider any of them unreliable, or to consider any one of them to be indubitably more reliable than the others? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:06, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Out of these sources, the

talk

) 03:11, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

All of these are probably reliable sources (I can only judge the GRG by their Wikipedia article). Three of them agree on a March 15 DOB, one says March 10, one March 4. Four of them (the four newspaper articles) report on an event - the celebration of her birthday - and cite sources. It's pretty clear that her birthday was celebrated on March 15 in 2007, 2009 and 2013. It's also pretty clear that her birthday was celebrated 11 days earlier than that in 2010.

While the GRG reportedly verified her age, their source isn't given. And if it is her birth certificate, it's important to note that birth certificates are not necessarily accurate - my grandfather's (born 1906, in Trinidad, which would have had a very similar system of birth registration as Jamaica) DOB is, reportedly, wrong on his birth certificate because there was a fine for reporting a birth more than a week late. A friend's father, born around 1940, has two different birth certificates with different first and surnames. Without more information, I wouldn't take the date supplied by the GRG as a fact, while disregarding the other reported birth dates. That amounts to privileging the most opaque of the five sources. Guettarda (talk) 06:18, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

The GRG requires early & mid-life documentation, as well as later life identification, to verify a supercentenarian claim. That includes a birth certificate, marriage record, census records, and other ID documents. Of course we cannot be completely certain that her claim is true - there is always the chance of misidentification, for example - but you can have a 99% confidence level in verified cases. The point is, they have verified her claim with a birth date of 10 March 1900, so that's the most likely birth date, and that's what should be included in the article. -- Ollie231213 (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

The GRG website is a single source. Typos happen all the time. As do transcription errors. As do errors in the creation of official documents. Due to the fact that the GRG website is utterly opaque in this regard, it's impossible to state that the odds of an error are ~1%. Errors in birth registration, for example, are commonplace. Proof may be required now, but when most births occurred at home (as they did in Jamaica circa 1900) proof was impossible to come by. And registrars make mistakes too. You tell someone something, and they write it down. Errors can also occur when you transcribe records. The original entries were transcribed by hand when copies were made. (I don't know if Jamaica has computerised or microfilmed their records recently.) The volunteers themselves can make errors.

The simple fact is that an official DOB is a data point around which there exists a certain amount of error. What that error is, I don't know. But a 1% error rate in a country of 2.8 million amounts to 28,000 errors. Even a 0.1% error rate still means that 2,800 DOBs are wrong. And we're talking about record keeping over 100 years ago. My experience with a country whose bureaucracy was, at the time, run by the same colonial civil service as Jamaica makes me suspect that the rate of accuracy was probably on the higher end. To that error rate we must compound the error rate of researchers (who are volunteers, so who knows how well they are trained in data collection) and the error rate of transcription onto the web site. Against that we have the error rate of the news stories. Maybe journalists make more mistakes than GRG researchers (though I would never assume that a priori); the problem lies not in the possibility of error, but in the coincidence of error. And here's the thing - the newspaper reports are tied to events. It's far easier to transpose a digit when typing than it is to confuse "last Sunday" with "last week Tuesday".

Unless you're willing to assume that Jamaicans as ignorant and First World sources are authoritative, I see no way to privilege that one source while dismissing the others. Guettarda (talk) 23:03, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Greetings, The Gerontology Research Group is the world's leading authority in extreme longevity tracking. The confidentiality of the data provided and presented by the Gerontology Research Group is beyond any further doubts, once an authenticity of an age is verified just as it happened in Mrs. Violet Brown's case. She was indeed born on Mar. 10, 1900. The verification of a supercentenarian case is a process, in which many different aspects are taken into consideration and it does take time. Firstly a case is pending and then, after further review the final decision is made. A case can be positively verified only when there has been gathered the substantial evidence on the particular case. A news report is not substantial evidence of an age. The Gerontology Research Group bases on the original documentation. Moreover, one document is not enough to verify a case. The multiple number of documents, records, certifications and other sources eliminate the possibility of incompatibility. Then, even if one of these sources was indeed in range of error, the researchers can distinguish it. The researchers, GRG Correspondents are trusted members of the GRG, who have previously proven their credibility and signed the confidentiality agreement. The Gerontology Research Group is a professional organization, cooperates with Guiness World Records as well as with other gerontological and sociological institutions. Its correspondents, apart from collecting the evidence, also often perform the research "in field" by contacting the families of supercentenarians, supercentenarians themselves and exchanging the information with them. Waenceslaus (talk) 16:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Assertions by the GRG fan club that the GRG is infallible are incorrect. On one occasion there was a dispute on Wiki as to whether or not a British supercentenarian had died. The GRG, vigorously supported by Robert Young, assured us that she had died while a relative insisted she had not. The GRG was wrong (they had been supplied incorrect information). Also their website is technologically out of date (they have promised an upgrade for about a year) and some of the pages, cited as references in Wiki, have not been updated for up to 7 years, so there must exist the possibility, however small, that the date published on their website is not what they have on their records. However, while not 100% reliable the GRG is still probably more reliable than your average newspaper where journalism can range from sloppy to grossly incompetent and occasionally deliberately false. In this case I would expect the DoB of 10 March to probably be correct. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 09:46, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I have used IndiaGlitz as a reference in the article

It is a reliable citation for this kind of information. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:49, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Sriram, on the whole, it qualifies a an RS. Create an article on it and expand it using secondary sources like Hindu, TOI, CNN etc. which mention about it. — Ssven2 ^{speak 2 me} 07:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

International Business Times have made numerous references to IndiaGlitz and have quoted their reviews in their "review roundup" pages to determine how well a film or its music was received, as seen here. There is also this and [44], which are used for different purposes rather than collecting reviews. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:17, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

@

Sriram ^{speak up}

08:29, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

My point being that two internationally reputed sites (CNN-IBN and IBTimes) rely on IndiaGlitz for information, which should prove it's notability and reliability. Kailash29792 (talk) 08:39, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Mid Day has also used IndiaGlitz in this. Kailash29792 (talk

) 09:31, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Bladesmulti, any final word? Kailash29792 (talk) 05:56, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

No. Bladesmulti (talk) 06:07, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

So with all the evidence we have presented, I think the site should satisfy RS, even during FAC's. Kailash29792 (talk) 19:05, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Myself and another editor (

(1) A citation to the motion picture itself, as a primary source, in reference to a variety of elements including ending credits [copied from discussion on the article's talk page]:

The other editor contends that direct reference to such elements in the primary source is not allowable because it would be synthesis and original research. I believe that in this context, a primary source is not only allowable but perhaps the strongest, because the primary source is being used to cite a "straightforward, descriptive statement of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge."

(2) A citation to a statement from a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal. The journal article states: "[The story is] set in New York City in the film, but Chicago in the play..."

We both agree that this source is acceptable.

(3) A citation to the New York Times, referring to a statement that the film was being shot in New York City. The other editor contends that the mere fact that a film was shot "on location" cannot establish that the story was actually set there. While I agree that this is true to a certain extent, I believe that in practice it is powerful evidence, and goes a long way toward establishing that the film was indeed set in New York.

In sum: the other editor wishes to remove all of the citations except the citation to the academic journal. In my opinion this removes the strongest sources and best evidence, to the ultimate detriment of the article. (The setting of the film has been a subject of dispute in the past, perhaps because the play was set in Chicago).

So you agree about the article's content and the dispute is just about, whether you cite just #2 or all 3 sources? My impression of the discussion is that, you don't primarily disagree about the reliabilty of the sources but rather on what they actually state. If that is so, this is the wrong noticeboard und you probably should ask for 3rd opinions instead.--Kmhkmh (talk) 19:39, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Robert Ankony is a Vietnam veteran, a veteran police officer and detective, and has a Ph.D in criminology. He has written a memoir, issued by a reputable publisher, as well as articles about his experiences in the Vietnam War, and has written numerous articles in scholarly criminology articles. He maintains a website with reprints of his published writings and a self-published blog: http://www.robertankony.com

Ankony has also contributed to Wikpedia as Icemanwcs (talk · contribs). Many of his contributions have been in the form of citations to his published works. Others have been verbatim copies of those works. It's my opinion, and just an opinion, that he's made those contributions to improve Wikipedia and not for any personal gain. His website does not carry any advertisements and it doesn't appear that he gains any monetary rewards by directing traffic to it. I believe he has contributed his scholarship in good faith, to the overall benefit of the project.

An editor using a variety of IPs (208.54.38.255, 172.56.8.192, 172.56.9.67) has decided that all of the references and external links to writings by Ankony are detrimental to Wikipedia, are in violation of policy, and must be removed immediately without any discussion. He has removed the citations but not the cited material. I've counseled a more cautious approach. In response the editor has made all kinds of accusations about my motives and methods. I don't want to deal with the IP editor any more which is why I'm bringing this here for the community to handle.

Ankony's "About me" webpage says:[45]

• He earned his bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan, a master's in correctional sciences from the University of Detroit; and an MS, MA, and PhD in sociology (criminology) from Wayne State University. He did graduate research in the former Soviet Union and other Warsaw Pact nations and now writes criminological, firearms, and military articles for scientific and professional journals and special-interest magazines. He is a member of the American Society of Criminology.

Here are some of the pages from which the IP editor has deleted citation's to Ankony's scholarly, peer reviewed publications or other published writings: Explosive material, Proactive policing, Long-range reconnaissance patrol. Please decide if these citations and contributions should be removed with prejudice or have value. Rezin (talk) 21:30, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• There's no rule against citing yourself on Wikipedia, if your work is indeed a reliable source on the matter. However, it does present a conflict of interest that should be treated with caution, especially when you're citing your own self-published work, which is why it is usually suggested that people refrain from citing themselves. But that guideline exists to prevent bad citations, not to remove good ones; if a citation is acceptable when placed by one person, then the identical citation is acceptable when placed by anyone.

Certainly, it is bad practice to remove citations but the material being cited; it not only leaves behind potentially incorrect information but does not let future editors figure out where the text came from, making improvement more difficult. As far as your conflict with that editor is concerned, the Reliable Sources Noticeboard is not the forum for that. If you absolutely can't work anything out, consider

WP:ARBCOM (keeping in mind that arbitration is about personal conduct, not article content). Knight of Truth (talk

) 21:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• Rezin is being very misleading here, maybe he did not delve into the history of this link spammer as I have. Robert Ankony is
  WP:COI 3. He constantly adds his website to many articles under external link which have no legitimate reasoning for being added other than link spamming his name and website all over Wikipedia. Additionally all we really know is he has a website and has been published in his own online magazine and a few other articles. I suspect he is a veteran and an ex police officer and may have some degrees but we have no easy way of substantiating that. It is all irrelevant as he is clearly misusing his account to link spam the snot out of many articles for self promoting reasons. 172.56.9.123 (talk
  ) 01:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't confuse the behavioral issues concerning

WP:ANI perhaps. Rezin (talk

) 02:04, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• You just confused the issue by insinuating I claimed they were falsified which is a serious insinuation. They are not helpful references as most are only added as link spam and many times to content that was already there before he showed up. The problem with your whole argument is you believe his sources are good (which we do not know) because you believe his claims of expertise make him a trusted authority. How did you come to that conclusion? Have you found evidence of know experts quoting or referencing his works? If you have you should be placing those citations as secondary sources where appropriate. It has been pointed out many times and even above by another editor that it is best not to cite oneself for obvious reasons. When it becomes readily obvious the reason for citing oneself is pure and simple self promotion
  WP:SPAMMER and the account has been mostly used to promote self interested goals then a reasonable person would also question the objectivity of the source. I have investigated his many edits and have found most to be of little consequence to the article and almost always a way to slip in link spam. It is so obvious that even you are finally acknowledging these "behavioral issues" (your words). The is ample evidence to bring his misuse of editing to arbcom and I believe the are many well respected editors who have previously warned him and would be willing to weigh in on his behavior. It is because of your dragging this around that you have flagged him and that may ultimately happen despite my original intention of warning him again and removing the link spam. He is now on two boards as a result. 172.56.9.123 (talk
  ) 02:44, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

This thread is solely concerned with whether the references are reliable. You have not presented any evidence why, for example, this reference:

• Robert C. Ankony and Thomas M. Kelly, "The Impact of Perceived Alienation on a Police Officers' Sense of Mastery and Subsequent Motivation for Proactive Enforcement," Policing: An International Journal of Police Strategies and Management, vol. 22, no. 2 (1999): 120-32.

is unreliable for Wikipedia purposes. If there's no reason to question it's reliability then the presumption is that a journal like Policing: An International Journal of Police Strategies and Management is probably reliable.[46][47] Rezin (talk) 03:06, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• [User:Rezin|Rezin]] (talk) 02:04, 16 January 2015 (UTC) I appreciate your defense of my credentials and work. I posted my response on the talk page and I did so again below. I do hope this matter is resolved and that the references to my years of Wikipedia work are restored. I regret that it is viewed by (talk) as spam. I never made a dollar off it. I do it as a contributor to history and from my fields of expertise. I love history and that I happened to live some of it, researched it, and wrote about it shouldn't be taken as a negative. The question should be is my work valid and authoritative. The question by (talk) asking how much of my work has been referenced by known experts is unnecessary because the validity is the publication--editors of scholarly publications thought it was relevant to its readers. I also disagree with the statement that most of my edits add very little and that references were already there before I showed up. I'm sure over the years many of my edits were minor and at times some references were already there. On the other hand do all my edits have to be major and is it recognized that I created pages and cleaned some pages of ramblings, e.g., Proactive Enforcement. Equally important, why was the reference to the definition of Social Alienation or Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol, the lead sentences on each of the pages removed, which are respectively from my doctoral dissertation as published in the scientific journal Policing and from my book LURPS. That's years of my scholarly work erased by (talk). Thank you, Icemanwcs (talk) 09:32, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• Hello (
  WP:EL to avoid any problems. Thanks for your contributions to WP and, if you're he, your service to the nation. Rezin (talk) 23:09, 8 January 2015 (UTC)". I think it would serve history and Wikipedia users if the references and external links are restored. If they are I would be happy to review the sites and remove any links or references that are not of specific need and you could review my work. Thank you, Icemanwcs (talk
  ) 07:42, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• When
  WP:SPAMMER. Adding references citing oneself and then adding links to all kinds of articles shows a definitive pattern of abuse that even Reziz has acknowledged. Again the argument against link spamming and misuse of self citing for self promotion does not hinge on whether it is reliable. And Robert Ankony acknowledges that he is not being cited by known experts on Wikipedia or for that matter elsewhere. He has written some articles for magazines which I have looked at and I do not believe a reasonable person would call most of them scholarly publications albeit there may be a few which qualify. Gun magazine and occupational magazines however are not academic publications. Again I will ask the obvious question: Why would such a person who claims to be a scholar not realize it is best not to cite oneself? Did he not learn that in his studies and realize the ethical conflict of interest when doing such? Surely such an academic would have many sources to back up his years of research as he claims he has done above. Why does he not use them and instead chooses to link spam to his website which he claims he never made a penny off of? He has been amply warned by many other editors and has had his link spammed removed many times in the past yet he continues to go on his merry way ignoring the concerns and advice of many editors over a 2 year period. In fact his actions have led to a concern over reliability due to his "Behavioral Issues" -Rezin's description. The constant link spamming of articles is a serious disruption of Wikipedia as it takes many editors time to police rogue behavior. Ankony cannot expect much respect in the wiki community for his view that he is contributing when he has a long record of abusing Wikipedia with link spamming. 172.56.9.123 (talk
  ) 18:57, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I have provided links to the spam blacklit noticeboard which lists some of the spamming by Robert Ankony and his talk page which also shows the warnings given by editors. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist&oldid=642808855#www.robertankony.com and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Icemanwcs&oldid=642810110#External_links

• (talk) It appears you removed all references from years of work yet you left all of my text on the pages. Another editor addressed if a reference can be cited by one person it can be cited by anyone. The question is are my references reliable. Rezin and another editor thought they were. You took the position that because it is my work they must be removed because it is "self-promoting spamming." On the Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol page you stated I have been "spamming the snot out of the page." That's very unfortunate. I put a lot of work into that page and as mentioned have spent ten years researching LURPS. A book that was Nominated for the Army Historical Foundation's Distinguish Writing Award in 2006 and 2009. LURPS was also favorably reviewed by Dr. Erik Villard, US Army Center of Military History, Washington, D.C. And Jason Foster of Vietnam magazine wrote that "LURPS is among the best war diaries available." Vietnam magazine also published some of my work as their cover story "No Peace in the Valley" Oct. 2008. That magazines such as Vietnam or Small Arms of the World are not scholarly is true but they are authoritative sources in their field. Does a source have to be as notable as the New England Journal of Medicine to be referenced on Wikipedia. I think not--but if so why did you remove Policing: An Internal Journal of Police Science and Management? The other issue is the links to my website. I acknowledge this can appear self-serving but it is not for that purpose. Review my website, especially LURPS Gallery it presents a unique contribution to the history of the Vietnam War. It's an archive of photos and scholarly captions that have been complied over many years. Many of the photos are not appropriate for Wikipedia but they show 1968, the most pivotal year of the war. It also depicts the biggest battle of the war, the Tet Offensive, as well as the second largest battle of the war, the Siege of the Marine combat base at Khe Sanh. In addition, it shows the First Air Cavalry Division's assault into A Shau Valley--the most formidable enemy-held territory in South Vietnam. Yes, I served in each of these battles and spent much of my life writing about them because I owe that to the men I served with and to all who died. Please read the work that the links were connected to and see if you still think it is self-promoting. Read "No Peace in the Valley" Oct. 2008, it's on my website. I don't even mention I was there in the article, yet I was. I only use my references or at times direct readers to my website if it adds more relevant detail. I'm sorry you determined that because I researched and wrote articles you believe all my work is self-serving. I consider it an honor to have served with the men I did, both in the military and in law enforcement. I was fortunate that I had the chance to move on in life from a GED to a PhD. Perhaps you should also take a look at the link you removed from Company E, 52nd Infantry (LRP) about Sgt. Douglas Parkinson titled "Team Leader and Mentor." Doug was a giant in Company E and once said, "Bob get the story out and let people know what happened in Vietnam, or the men we lost will just disappear." I hope you repost the references and links and I will give them an editing which you can review. Thank you,Icemanwcs (talk) 22:12, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• (talk) You erroneously quoted me when you stated: "And Robert Ankony acknowledges that he is not being cited by known experts on Wikipedia or for that matter elsewhere." Please note, I never said that and as an editor you too should be more careful. What I said is this: "The question by (talk) asking how much of my work has been referenced by known experts is unnecessary because the validity is the publication--editors of scholarly publications thought it was relevant to its readers." You also state: "He has written some articles for magazines which I have looked at and I do not believe a reasonable person would call most of them scholarly publications albeit there may be a few which qualify. Gun magazine and occupational magazines however are not academic publications." Did I ever say that everything I wrote is an academic publication? Do you require this of other editors and contributors? Have you looked at the books on Wikipedia pages? Can you really say that all citations are from scientific journals or from an academic press? Thank you,Icemanwcs (talk) 03:36, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

• (talk) I think the external link to the Photographic History of 1st Cav LRRP Rangers in Vietnam (1968) should be re-installed as it provides a vivid and scholarly account of key battles of the war that would be of interest to Wikipedia military historians.Icemanwcs (talk) 07:27, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, this came up back in August of 2013 as well. At that time I went back through and did some work on some of the articles in question to provide balance and more secondary sources. Intothatdarkness 15:12, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

• Intothatdarkness Thanks for your help in the past and for your concern now. I think the argument has been made and I agree.Icemanwcs (talk) 04:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

An editor has twice challenged a thesis published at a university-affiliated research institution, DRMCC: [48] He says that the fact that it is a thesis, and the fact that it is from this university, needs citations. Opinions? —

I'm a bit lost. Does references the thesis not imply the university and advisor? I mean that info should be in the thesis itself. So unless there is some reason to believe the thesis is a forgery the request of that editor makes no sense to me.--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:40, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. I advised him of this RSN topic, so if we don't hear from him, I'm taking his actions to imply that he thinks it is a forgery, especially the last edit summary. —

talk

) 03:04, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Can you clarify what sort of thesis this is? A doctoral thesis tends to have a lot more scrutiny than a Masters thesis - and I'm fairly sure that we won't generally cite the latter as RS accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:08, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

It appears to be a thesis for a diplôme universitaire; I'm afraid I don't know enough about the structure of French academic degrees and diplomas to place that precisely on the spectrum. My reading of our article (and a combination of my broken French and a bit of Google Translate) suggests that it's certainly much closer to a Master's thesis than a Ph.D. thesis in stature. I'm not sure if a 'defense' is required for one. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

That's how at read it as well.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Can't answer exactly what the academic stature is, however, its title page says Sous la direction de Xavier Raufer et François Haut, these appear to be two faculty or directors [49] who have been directing or advising the author. I believe the first is the

talk

) 05:04, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I generally wouldn't consider a thesis reliable regardless of degree. Primary peer-reviewed journal articles are generally shaky already because it's difficult for us as a non-expert editors to assign weight and scientific acceptance of the ideas in such a source. Graduate level theses are generally reviewed by committee members and an advisor, but this is can often be done in a hurried manner to get the student to graduate, so that bumps down the reliability even more. It's not all cases, but it occurs often enough that a thesis chapter is very different in quality to that same work published in a peer-reviewed journal. Usually it's a big red flag if that work hasn't been published yet.

talk

) 19:10, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

The existence of a thesis should be easy enough to verify; these things should be indexed. Using a thesis as a source is something that should be carefully considered on a case-by-case basis: why wasn't it published, are there no better sources, things like that. Specifically here though, I find it odd that it's listed under "further reading". An obscure, unpublished source, in French (apparently) just doesn't sound like something that's a good fit for the 'further reading' section. Guettarda (talk) 05:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Is this book:

• Ruiz, Enrique (2009). Discriminate Or Diversify. PositivePsyche.Biz Corp. p. 279.
  ISBN 9780578017341
  .

a reliable citation for the statement, "The gathering during Hajj is considered the largest annual gathering of people in the world"? (See [50])

Ping: User:Debresser Shii (tock) 14:51, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Seems irrelevant. At Pilgrimage and Hajj there are two additional cites used for this assertion [51] [52], and looking on google turns up quite a few alternate refs as well. This source makes mention of the claim in question, but does not seem to comment on its justification; might as well remove it. siafu (talk) 15:22, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

A self-published work, and I see nothing in even his own bio that suggests that he's a particular expert in the attendance of hajj relative to other worldwide events. So, unneeded (as noted above) and inappropriate. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:36, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure why this ref is needed surely stronger ones exist. self-published by a expert in Hajj would be cool, but is this guy one?--Inayity (talk) 15:43, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Some sources say [Mansa Musa http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/meet-mansa-musa-i-of-mali--the-richest-human-being-in-all-history-8213453.html independent] and Huffand Daily Mail are these enough to verify a statement that he was one of the richest men to have ever lived? including

Those are simply reproductions of the original claim, which on close inspection is not particularly reliable. The Independent's a reputable newspaper, but I think it's necessary to exercise a bit of judgement over newspaper stalwart Phil Space putting in something cute from some Website on a slow news day. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:42, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that this probably not reliable. Reliability is not all-encompassing; a newspaper that has a great news section might print horoscopes or crazy op-eds, or as User:Pinkbeast mentioned, include something on a "slow newsday" with less rigorous editorial standards than normal. Knight of Truth (talk) 21:07, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

When taking into account the original source "Celebrity net worth", I think the answer is no. This is a fluff piece for fun, not a serious claim. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately Henry Louis Gates is a historian and the second he uses it, it becomes notable. And please remember your comments MUST deal with RS, not opinions on what is "slow newsday" that is not an academic reply to the criteria of RS. Nor is fluff for fun a serious remark to the validity of a source, it is a personal bias-- and everyone has them. If there is a problem with RS you must have a serious discussion ABOUT the specific source and why that information is (in specific terms) not RS. Fluff piece, Slow day = are name calling, not refutations of a source. We are not discussing Horoscopes, or Op-eds, we are discussing if this source, used by many, including a senior world historian in the said article--Inayity (talk) 23:00, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Yet when it comes to other historical figures you find this same kind of ref being used. Sure it is not scholarly, but it is Notable enough to be included (when used so widely) in the article. I cannot be washed out. --Inayity (talk) 23:19, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Gates quotes it as "according to" Celebrity Net Worth. Every other statement in the Gates article is definitive. Bit of a hedge? Pinkbeast (talk) 11:12, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

This comment is for house keeping purposes. This is why i proposed we edit the line to suggest it is according to some criteria. That way it is not a fact and mirrors a RS source and a person qualified to make the remark, even if with reservations. --Inayity (talk) 04:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Note: Wealth is not an absolute value for every time and place. While on a desert island, Robinson Crusoe was the wealthiest person alive as far as Friday was concerned. Currently we see some Russian oligarch's having their wealth cut in half by simple currency fluctuations. By the way, RS/N has repeatedly found "CelebrityNetWorth" to not meet

Celebrity Net worth is not the only thing we are discussing. I see one editor trying to use this R/S to delete another source from a scholar. While networth might not be r.s the article by Henry Louis Gates IS!!!!!!!! --Inayity (talk) 07:56, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Henry Louis Gates is just referencing, in passing and not in terms of any kind of serious work, celebritynetworth. It's the same damn source. HLG is a tertiary source and not very relevant one at that. Look, Inanity, you've been told by something like five people here that this is NOT a reliable source. Quit haranguing them, wasting their time, and accept what others are trying to tell you. Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

And yes, what Collect says above is correct. You really can't compare the wealth of someone living in the pre-Industrial world to someone living today. If MM was so wealthy, why didn't he buy a laptop? Why didn't he drive a car? Poor guy couldn't even afford lightbulbs for his palace. And that's putting aside the fact that "lots of gold" is not necessarily the correct measure of wealth. If we measured wealth in terms of purchasing power of, say, wheat, or rice, or tin, or cows or whatever, we'd get a different answer. Note that celebritynetworth.com does not explain their "methodology". Most likely they just made this shit up. Because they're an unreliable source. On Wikipedia we don't include stupid junk that some lame gossip site made up, even if it was repeated by a trashy tabloid.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:41, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Wait a minute you cannot compare? So I guess historical economics just went down the toilet with that simplistic statement. We are not really discussing only Celeb (as you know I also do not think highly of it). What I am defending is the hedged statement which says "According to some criteria" I think that is a satisfactory statement. All over Wikipedia I see "Most influential people" and all kinds of similar material which cannot be quantified. But it is used. So Less about the details of how historical net worth is calculated, that is really not the point of contention. Noticed the celeb as a direct ref has been removed. We are dealing with Gates who is a notable scholarly surely he would not use a NONSENSE source and mess up his years of "credit"--Inayity (talk) 08:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Lastly please respect

WP:TALK, discuss things like a professional. Now Henry Louis Gates has gone so low he is using Stupid Junk well shame on him, he might still know a thing or two. So where are we? --Inayity (talk

) 08:57, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

If you're referring to

Economic History

then no, it doesn't go down the toilet. In fact that is precisely what tells you that it's pretty much impossible - or at the very least extremely hard - to compare wealth levels across centuries. Your "hedged statement" looks like a bullshit excuse to insert a nonsense claim from an unreliable source. "Hedged nonsense" is still nonsense. Why not just go ahead and put in "According to the unreliable trashy gossip site celebritynetworth.com..."? That's pretty much what you want us to let you do here. Let you use junk source as long as you "hedge it". No.

Look, that's 3 people here, plus myself, plus at least 2 or 3 more people on the talk page telling you it's rubbish. So stop playing

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. What's incivil is wasting people's time with inanities. Volunteer Marek (talk

) 21:26, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The known issues section of Nexus 5 was removed because none of the sources are considered valid. could an independent party check them one by one?

Used by Scientific American. Sci Am also links directly to the source's website within an online Sci Am article. The source is also used by US News, Bloomberg News, CBS News, the LA Times, USA Today, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal. Users @Randykitty: and @HG: nonetheless respectively contend that Energy in Depth is "unusable" and material cited to it is "very poorly sourced". Thoughts? In my opinion excluding Energy in Depth even when use is restricted to with in-text attribution may leave articles about publications and resources preferred by environmental lobbying organizations unbalanced, indeed, that's why so many editors of reliable sources like Scientific American see Energy in Depth as a "go to" resource: it provides critical balance from an authority, albeit an authority with a POV. This POV is affiliated with the energy industry, however my view is that if the partisan affiliation is fully disclosed to the reader, per WP:RS "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." I'll grant that adding critiques to articles is not to everyone's taste, indeed it isn't to mine, but these two editors have already rejected my stripping out the critique to just leave behind the undisputed facts the critique refers to as "original research" on my part. On a related note, I suggest we ask ourselves if black and white thinking about RS is appropriate or necessary: an appreciation of shading would mean sources could be used under specified conditions, such as with attribution.--Brian Dell (talk) 04:15, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• It is perhaps important to provide some background information on the disagreement about the use of Energy in Depth as a reliable source. EiD describes itself on their website as a "campaign". They're an industry lobbying group with an axe to grind. Note that Sci Am, LA Times, etc all cite opinions from this group, like newspapers, but not encyclopedias, do. They do not cite them as the source of well established fact. Brian doesn't mention it above, but he has been edit warring for a while now on the article about the scientific journal
  reliable source shows that it is relevant to the subject of the article, i.e. the editorial policy of Reviews on Environmental Health. Subsequently, Brian came up with a reference to EiD: 'Energy in Depth, a research and education program of the Independent Petroleum Association of America, has contended that Carpenter's editor-in-chief role "brings up questions as to the publication’s credibility."[ref]' I (and also another editor) have removed this, too, for the obvious reason that WP is not like a newspaper, but an encyclopedia, and including opinions from lobbying groups in this particular article is UNDUE and inappropriate. --Randykitty (talk
  ) 08:34, 21 January 2015 (UTC)