Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 70

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Archive 65 ← Archive 68 Archive 69 Archive 70 Archive 71 Archive 72 → Archive 75

Let's stop ignoring the suggestion in R2

Currently, R2 states:

This applies to redirects, apart from

main namespace
to any other namespace except the Category:, Template:, Wikipedia:, Help: and Portal: namespaces.

If the redirect was the result of a page move, consider waiting a day or two before deleting the redirect. See also Wikipedia:Cross-namespace redirects and Category:Cross-namespace redirects.

Regarding that second sentence, it will not surprise you to know that practically all R2 deletions are a result of Main->Draft/Usersandbox moves, mainly the former, being tagged immediately upon creation. These are usually created by a patroller "draftifying/incubating" articles they deem not ready for mainspace. A number of scripts have made this process much easier with the end result being that people are not waiting a day or two before tagging or deleting such redirects. By means of example, here are 50 R2 deletions from January; of these 50, 49 are Main->Draft/User redirects and one was made in error. After being moved, only 2 persisted for longer than 24 hours; 10 were deleted >12 hours after moving, and after being tagged, nothing lasted longer than 9 hours. I also perused 100 each from March and December, and found only redirects to Draft with maybe a half-dozen to userspace.

49 R2s from January
page time between move and delete link to page log deletion comment
Siubhan_Harrison 1.5h page log
redirect
from mainspace
Vacuum-packed_mattresses 10m page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace
Kb.au/sandbox 10m page log
redirect from mainspace (CSDH
)
Shin_Noguchi 75m page log
TW
)
Strike_1 6.5h page log
Twinkle
)
Rahul_Pandita 2.5h page log
Twinkle
)
Nikhil_Kumar_(Author) 2.25h page log
Twinkle
)
Thearchy 30m page log
TW
)
Lizzies_(band) 21h (from move, 9h from tag) page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace
UseYBG/VEventLink 29h (from move, 9.5h from tag) page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace
Robert_Carli 1.5h page log
redirect
from mainspace
Richard_Pennington_(writer) 24h (from move, 3.5h from tag) page log
Twinkle
)
Kequyen_Lam 4.5h (from redirect, 30m from tag) page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace
Priya_Mallick 30m page log
redirect
from mainspace
Minor_League_Basketball_Association 9h page log
Twinkle
)
Edwin_van_der_Heide 3.5h page log
Twinkle
)
Utilisateur:Lewisiscrazy 8m page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace
Moulin_Rouge!_(musical) 5h page log
Draft:Moulin Rouge! (musical)
New_York_Detachment_No._1 5.5h page log
Twinkle
)
McLemore_Detachment 5.5h page log
Twinkle
)
Dimecoin 1.5h page log
TW
)
Diana_Zhantemirova 6.5h page log
redirect
from mainspace
Makhdoom_Syed_Hassan_Mehmood_Shah 1h page log
TW
)
Twentyfour_News 22h (from move, 3.5h from tag) page log
TW
)
Harry_J._Scott 17h (from move, 3.5h from tag) page log
TW
)
William_Meisel 21h (from move, 3.5h from tag) page log
TW
)
Dan_Poole 12h (from move, 3.5h from tag) page log
TW
)
Arthur_Rovine_(Arbitrator) 30m page log
Twinkle
)
Week_of_Basketball 9h (untagged) page log
redirect
from mainspace
Week_of_Football 9h (untagged) page log
redirect
from mainspace
Tokini_Peterside 22h (from move, 4.5h from tag) page log
Twinkle
)
Sonic_Assault_(audio_device) 13h (from move, 3.5h from tag) page log
Twinkle
)
Bell_Group_(Australia)
 Deleted in error page log
Twinkle
)
Art_X_Lagos 23h (from move, 3.5h from tag) page log
Twinkle
)
Curve_(payment_card) 45m page log
TW
)
Chris_Ihidero 75m page log
TW
)
Novellino_Wines 2h page log
TW
)
Suiteness 7h page log
TW
)
Star_Wars:_The_Last_Jedi/Archive_audience_response 1.5h page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace
Yasir_Abbasi 3h page log
Twinkle
)
Tanya_Abrol 2.5h page log
Twinkle
)
Anjali_Abrol 2.5h page log
Twinkle
)
Adithya_(actor)
 2.5h page log
Twinkle
)
Intelligent_pill 20m (redir to moved page, time from tag) page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace
Thirteen_cats_on_the_hot_roof 4h page log
TW
)
Olive_Green_(film) 6h page log
TW
)
Principles_for_Digital_Development 6m page log
redirect
from mainspace
Yulia_Portunova 30m page log
redirect
from mainspace
Hampshire_Cultural_Trust 2h page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace
Emmashaw123/sandbox 7h (from move; 30m from tag) page log
Cross-namespace redirect
from mainspace

While this is just a slice of R2 deletions, it's actually a major undercount: sysops and

WP:CSD#R2
roughly 100% of the time. As such, I think we have three options:

  • Option 1: Remove the sentence. Changes: none.
  • Option 2: Keep the sentence and continue ignoring it. Changes: none (status quo).
  • Option 3: Enforce a waiting period before deleting. Changes: Main->Draft/Userspace redirects linger for a day or two, extendedmovers can no longer suppress when draftifying.

I like the idea of waiting a bit out of kindness but am clearly in favor of option 1 as it matches current community practice. The movelog entry is clearly visible on the page and, if it is draftified, there will be a notice saying "A draft exists at..." so I'm not worried about users finding "their" page. Option 3 leaves items to fall through the cracks unless we create a PROD-like system (RPROD? XNRPROD?), surely isn't worth the bureaucracy. Option 2, in addition to institutionalizing a system of ignoring suggestions, would allow any

POINTedly request a reversal of any R2 they see. We've been ignoring this suggestion for a while; it's time to finally remove this holdover from a different era. ~ Amory (u • t • c
) 19:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

  • The consensus here seems sufficiently clear that I went ahead and removed the sentence. Tazerdadog (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Support removal. Waiting is against the idea of speedy. Legacypac (talk) 20:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Support the edit made by Tazerdadog I also don't see any reasonable advantage to the waiting restriction.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 10:16, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Support option 1 as already implemented by Tazerdadog. Redirects from articlespace into draftish areas should always be speedily removed. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 17:26, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Option 4. Retain the sentence but don't ignore it in all cases. Waiting isn't necessary in all cases, but it is appropriate in some which is why it is phrased as "consider" not "you must". How we enforce consideration I don't know, but deleting the sentence is certainly not the answer. Thryduulf (talk) 00:34, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I know this is quite late, but as one of the most frequent R2 deleters (I think about a third of the ones on the table above are me), I admit to not reading the criterion closely enough to notice the suggestion. That said, I don't see the benefit of leaving a redirect for a page that's been moved to a different namespace, given the big red "A page with this title has previously been moved or deleted" box and the "There is a draft for this article at..." box (where applicable). ansh666 06:53, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Does CSD G4 still appy if a page has been singificantly modified, since the time a page has the notice pasted on it?

I am referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrashekhar_(TV_Series) . Although the page before I tried to fix it up was surely something that was not reliable, and sourced at all. However after I cleaned it up tweaked things up. Also, while I was doing some research on the subject matter I discovered that the page creator did what seemed like a copy paste, and I removed those items. I tried my best in adding a few references. Although I still think it could end up as a candidate for deletion, I am not sure if it still falls under as a candidate for deletion under CSD G4. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 05:58, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Not having looked at the page yet, as a general matter, I consider G4 to no longer apply once the prevailing reason the original article was deleted no longer applies. If an article was deleted because there were no reliable sources, and that has been solved, I probably wouldn't consider the page a G4 candidate, etc. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:33, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
WP:AFD is certainly an option. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk
) 09:58, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
I have a slightly stricter interpretation than Someguy (AFAICT it was intended for pages that were copied before deletion and immediately reposted, as with the original version of this article), so I'd decline a G4 on it if the tag were placed now. On a quick glance, I'm not convinced of its notability, though. ansh666 17:20, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

G7 for redirects after moves

If a user moves a long-standing article to a completely different title and then tag the redirects from the old title for speedy deletion per G7, then that's a bit disingenuous of them. I wouldn't expect an admin to actually carry out these deletions. But then I came across a series of moves by one user (logs: [1] [2][3] [4] [5] [6] [7]) and the old-title redirects have invariably been speedied. Now, the text at

WP:G7 is explicit that this criterion doesn't apply to such pages, but is there something in these cases that I'm missing. Pinging the deleting admins: RHaworth, 331dot, Fastily. – Uanfala (talk)
07:27, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Not really. There needs to be something wrong with the redirect for it to be deleted, and then that'll be under other criteria (R2, G6 etc). Normally {{R from move}} redirects should be and are kept at RFD. Page movers shouldn't and don't arbitrarily suppress redirect unless specifically needed.Galobtter (pingó mió)
Disagree as well. R3 explicitly exempts such redirects from speedy deletion because "a history of improper deletions of these redirects" (Note #4) and G7 explicitly says For redirects created as a result of a page move, the mover must also have been the only substantive contributor to the pages prior to the move. @SmokeyJoe: Please elaborate why you believe such G7 deletions are "perfectly valid thing under the rules" considering those parts of the rules I just cited. Regards SoWhy 08:55, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
User:SoWhy, it seems I missed User:Rossami's insertion of the parenthetical clause in the middle of G7. I was familiar with the first and last sentence only. My comment above struck. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:53, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Just a quick note that redirects don't take much resource, so if there's nothing wrong and someone might search for an alternate title, they should probably stay in place :). -- Luk talk 08:57, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
  • What seems to be happening is that the user moves an article, then blanks the redirect and leaves it at that. The G7 tagging appears to have been done by new page patrollers. Taking a look at the three most recently blanked redirects, each was tagged for speedy deletion by a different patroller, one [8] for G7, and two [9] [10] – bizarrely – for A1. Even more bizarrely, two of these just got deleted (incidentally, by one of the admins I've pinged at the start of the post). – Uanfala (talk) 09:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
    That last part does not really surprise me. Unfortunately. Regards SoWhy 10:19, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
    In that case, can someone with the goggles peek into and discover the patroller who did tag the leftover redirects with some or the other CSD tag?~ Winged BladesGodric 10:32, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
    This information is recoverable from the template messages on the user's talk page. I've alerted one of the two A1 taggers, and left a note on the talk page of the editor who seems to be responsible for the G7 tags. – Uanfala (talk) 10:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
This is exactly why we have the text we have in G7. Even something seemingly simple like G7 is ripe for abuse, and taggers and sysops alike need to check more than "Is the first person listed the one who blanked?" Checking page histories of all pages is key. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
An admin who actually checks the page meets the speedy criteria... that would be sight to see! Primefac (talk) 13:37, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
You can see that for free at User:SoWhy :) Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:55, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks but I'm hardly the only one. Most admins know how speedy criteria actually work. Just monitor related discussions and you will notice that problematic deletions are oftentimes performed by the same admins, e.g. RHaworth who is responsible for those deletions Uanfala mentions above (at 09:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)) after being pinged to this discussion that raised the very same problem less than two hours before (at 07:27, 11 May 2018 (UTC)). Regards SoWhy 14:07, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Yeah I do know that about the same admins, but I'd say part of the problem is that those same admins do quite a proportion of the CSD deletions (which they can do as they don't pay much attention to them) Galobtter (pingó mió) 14:20, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Well, as I say frequently in other venues, if you're finding an editor is doing something consistently that they shouldn't, find adequate diffs and open a discussion on the relevant noticeboard. Primefac (talk) 14:26, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Well, Ritchie333 tried that last month, didn't really work. Regards SoWhy 15:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Unused modules

Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2018 May 5 has several entries for modules that are no longer used in the templates for which they were created. The situation seems rather clear-cut — a module is useless without a template, so either they'll be deleted as useless, or they'll get put back into the templates because someone shouldn't have removed them in the first place. Why not have a speedy criterion for them? It could be either standalone or made part of something else.

Modules with zero transclusions may be deleted after being tagged for seven days.

Basing this off the image-copyright and T3 criteria, since obviously we shouldn't delete orphaned modules instantly just because they're orphaned; the point is getting rid of stuff that nobody needs, not something that was momentarily removed by accident or vandalism. This is vaguely related to G8 for categories ("populated by a retargeted or deleted template"), since both here and with G8 categories, the template is modified so as to make no more use of the other page. Nyttend (talk) 16:41, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

G8 has no such restriction, it's literally for all "Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page". The stuff in the text is only examples and exceptions, not a finite list. Personally, I'd probably summarize those modules under G6 if it's clear that no other use is likely. If it's less clear, TFD won't really collapse from a few extra modules being discussed. Regards SoWhy 17:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Sounds more like you want a Module PROD (which given that I can't even get a Template PROD going, good luck!), but I agree with SoWhy in that TFD is not currently overloaded with nominations, so there's not much point in carving out a specific category just for them. Primefac (talk) 18:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
  • If the module is dependent on a deleted template, then G8 would work. If you simply want a process for the uncontroversial deletion of modules after seven days, that would be an extension of PROD and should be suggested at
    WT:PROD. -- Tavix (talk
    ) 19:40, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
  • In principle, the same idea that is behind T3 should be able to apply to modules as well. But there are practical considerations that make this less desirable. First, there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of templates, and there is a clear need for efficient means (like CSD) of keeping it all tidy. The number of modules is probably two orders of magnitude smaller, and the deletions that have so far been necessary are far from the scale that would normally necessitate the use of a new speedy deletion criterion. A second – and more important – consideration has to do with they way the two namespaces are used. Templates are one average simpler than modules, they are ubiquitous and well known and so editors passing by are more likely to know what a given template is for it's a more straightforward task to determine if it is unlikely to be used. Modules, on the other hand, are still more esoteric, fewer people are familiar with them, and the tasks that modules are normally created for are more complex and usually involve larger timeframes (which often involve larger intervals between the sketch creation of a module and its deployment). I don't think this is the sort of context in which straightforward, uncontroversial deletions are going to be likely. – Uanfala (talk) 12:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
  • The only reason there are so many is because Pppery is going through the module space and deleting things that aren't used. Once that is done I expect the number of modules at TfD to be very low not justifying extending a CSD. Also T3 is Templates that are substantial duplications of another template, or hardcoded instances of another template where the same functionality could be provided by that other template, may be deleted after being tagged for seven days. so you'd likely want to extend "0 transclusions" to that first. Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
    And deleting things that aren't used or could be implemented in Wikitext {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 15:41, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Proposal at Village Pump

I have made a proposal concerning g13 at the Village Pump. Please come and participate. Egaoblai (talk) 19:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Increase G13 Speedy deletions to a one year grace period — JJMC89 (T·C) 19:42, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Speedy deletion for no reason

I got notification from this person User talk:Aneeqarani3132 regarding this article Wag (band). I deleted all what she find bothersome. When can I remove this template? I read everything about speedy criteria and none of this matches mine. Thank you. Qucipuci0 (talk) 07:08, 3 June 2018 (UTC) Qucipuci0

That article is appalling, I have to say. A
laundry list compiled from multiple issues of a fan magazine. Are there no weightier sources? Guy (Help!
) 20:14, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

G6 description discrepancies

I posted a question about G6 at WP:NPP/R, but realized this may have been a better place. Clarification welcome. Natureium (talk) 17:06, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

If the NPP curation tool misstates the CSD, then it should be corrected -- the language of the CSD controls. If, Natureium, you are suggesting that the CSD should be changed to better match the NPP tool, or in some other way, please make that proposal more clearly, and give your reasons for it. I don't see a reason to change the CSD from its current text, but I may be missing something. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 16:45, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
I originally was just asking for clarification, but now I'm thinking that the NPP version makes more sense. There's no need for a disambig page if there's only 2 pages to choose from. A hat note is sufficient. Natureium (talk) 16:47, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Dab pages with only two entries are correct if neither entry is the primary topic - see for example West Midlands Franchise and E. Ernst. In some, but not all, cases one of the two entries should be set the primary topic but this cannot be determined speedily. Thryduulf (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:G4
question

If an article is deleted at

WP:G4? ~ GB fan
15:10, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that is normally the case. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:14, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Agreed - the whole point of the draft space is to work on/improve substandard articles. If it's submitted for review and it's still significantly similar to the original it should just be declined (though if for some reason it's accepted at AFC then it can be G4'd from article space).
As a note, G4 would be acceptable on a draft if it was previously deleted as a draft at MFD without sufficient improvement. Primefac (talk) 15:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree in principle but disagree in practice. The
game the system by changing the title.) Robert McClenon (talk
) 18:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I wish that I could be as optimistic as some editors in thinking that submitters really are using draft space to improve substandard articles. I seldom see that. I sometimes (happily) see draft space used for new adequate articles, and often see draft space used to resubmit crud, but very seldom to turn crud into something any good. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
This isn't really a CSD question, but how is a reviewer to know whether a draft is an improvement over the deleted article anyway? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I think that it is seldom feasible to improve a deleted article in draft space anyway. The way that AFD works, if an article is deleted, the decision has usually been that the topic cannot be improved, not that it needs improvement. Most deletions are based on lack of notability, and are based on a conclusion that the subject is not notable, not merely that the references do not support notability. (If the references do not support notability, one of the reviewers may add better references, or the article may simply be tagged.) So it isn't the rule that improvement of a draft is likely to be effective. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Robert, are you saying that once an AFD has determined that an subject is not notable it can never become notable? I can understand an AFD closes today and is immediately brought back into Draft space. What about an article about a person that was deleted 3 years ago at AFD, can they become notable? That is actually what raised this question in my mind. A BLP article was deleted at AFD in 2015. In late 2017 a Draft article is created and two days ago it was deleted G4 from Draft space. Nevermind the fact that the original 2015 AFDd article had two sources and the 2018 Draft had 10. ~ GB fan 19:21, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Having 8 more sources/things changing after the AfD was closed would make it ineligible for G4 irregardless of whether it applied to draft space Galobtter (pingó mió) 19:30, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, that sounds like a problem. I know we're still talking generally, but I would suggest asking that admin (on their talk page) why they did what they did. No need to litigate it here. Primefac (talk) 20:00, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I will probably just undelete it. I really don't care what the deleting admin has to say about it. ~ GB fan 20:17, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
I can guess who deleted it. Which is sort of good because there aren't so many admins likely to have done this. Thincat (talk) 07:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
I could guess too, and then I went and checked and I was right :) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:31, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Me 3 Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:42, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@GB fan: it would still be worth drawing the admin's attention to it, in the hope that they will be more careful in future — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:31, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@GB fan: No, but it is not uncommon to see drafts deleted under G4. The problem is that "for explicit improvement (but not simply to circumvent Wikipedia's deletion policy)" is very subjective. Remove that and the deletion criterion would return to its intended function. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 07:51, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
The recourse against an admin being unreasonable about this is
WP:Deletion Review. It's almost always decided there that if the previous AfD is old enough, and any sort of a case can be made, re-creation as a draft will be permitted. I also want to mention that articles deleted from WP can be found in websites devoted to that purpose, such as Deletionpedia. DGG ( talk
) 21:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Applying CSD-A criteria to submitted drafts

A proposal was made in the section above about discussing the wisdom of applying all, or possibly a subset of, the CSD-A? criteria to submitted drafts and one of the participants requested that discussion on that topic not take place within the original thread.

This proposal needs to be properly workshopped and presented. Comments are welcome but let's not go too far down the road of judging it yet. We get a lot of pages about random high schoolers that shoild not be left untagged for deletion for 5 minutes after a responsible editor sees them. There is a large increase in AfC submissions (over 5 times more year over year) because of how we now direct new users who want to create new pages, and that is with ACTRIAL turned off. We are in different circumstances today. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Submissions for some interesting stats. Legacypac (talk) 21:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Reviewers know when the topic is completely hopeless, just look at some example. Submission of the draft means they are trying to put it into mainspace, and when it is a fantasy story based on their mine craft experience one day, it is impossible that a new source will help. NPReviewers already have the judgement and discretion to know when to draftify an A7 and when to simply tag it. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Ever since ACTRIAL started, the deluge of new content went from NPP to AfC. However, it doesn't seem right to, say, A7 a submitted draft on it's first submission. That said, we need measures to deal with 8-times-declined drafts, nonstarters, and other problematic drafts. What about expanding PROD to draftspace?
    talk
    ) 23:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Oppose Prod. Drafts are not watched, draft prod amounts to a nonobjective CSD. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
      • True, but so is G13 to an extent.
        talk
        ) 23:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
        • G13 is completely objective. Prod is assumed to be subjective. A speedy deletion need not be “speedy”, it can have a delay time, but is expected to meet the four new criterion criteria, listed at the top of this page. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
          • I mean, G13 gives carte blanche to admins to delete any page that hasn't been edited in six months. That's the only criterion. Also, I retract the DraftPROD idea.
            talk
            ) 23:52, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Ultimately this comes don to a balancing act between not wasting our AfC reviewer's time reviewing Ax eligible pages over and over again, vs not biting the new comers. The question then becomes how many times we let them resubmit before we put our foot down and say enough. I trust everyone can see why both deleting after the first submission and allowing dozens of virtually unimproved submissions are both very bad ideas. I'd propose three submissions as the line between those two bad things, After three Ax eligible submissions, just delete it.Tazerdadog (talk) 23:57, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Good point. I think that drafts that are Ax worthy and not being improved at all, should be deleted.
      talk
      ) 00:15, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
    • When a draft submission is so unsuitable that it immediately fits A7 or A11, and there are many of these, the kindest thing to do is to give the author a timely message. Timely means immediately. A submission about their minecraft cave system for example, it is to no one's benefit for them to be told a reviewer doesn't think is it suitable, but they are encouraged to edit it to improve it and then resubmit it. Deletion, immediate deletion is the best thing for the content, it was the wrong way to go. The automated A7 / A11 sorry text that the author receives is politely, positively and constructively worded. The newcomer needs to focus on that response, not on the unsuitable text they submitted. At AfC, they are working on a harder "Rejected" response, which will help, but that is for things that are in the opinion of the reviewer not notable, but not so bad as to be speediable. Much is speediable, or should be speediable. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:24, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Draft:Apartment 220, for example. Clearly should be deleted, with the author messaged accordingly. There are many of these. They are always SNOW deleted at MfD, where they waste time and space, creating and consuming more space and editorial time that even close to what the author invested in the page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:30, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Draft:Neon Habari (bio and background) is another. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Some web content examples. Brand new (at time of submission) facebook page.Draft:IdsView no amount of editing is going to help that. Another brand new website Draft:KickNtheBalls. Draft:Loki doki and to get another reviewer Draft:Loki Doki Draft:Mind Bending Thumb Bending and Draft:Never Have Ever Legacypac (talk) 01:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Some, not all, of them are G11-eligible. G11 doesn't require the authors intent to be promotion, but if the sole effect of the page is to promote a facebook link, that's G11. A7 has the advantage of not impugning an author's intention intention to promote and brings up the A7 threshold of te indication of importance as the starting point for a new article. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • A small group of admins want to interpret CSD very narrowly while many absolutely non-notable pages are a stretch for G11 simply because there is nothing on the page that is worth promoting. Legacypac (talk) 03:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • The problem with expanding any A-criteria to draft-space (except the fact that Draft-space was conceived as a place to work on stuff in peace without risking deletion) is that we cannot trust all users and admins to really only tag and delete the problematic drafts that have no chance of ever becoming an article. What some might bemoan as a "very narrow" interpretation is actually an attempt to prevent mistakes. If only 1 out of 10 deletions is a mistake, it also means that we lose 10% of content that should be included and (likely) 99% of the editors who created those pages. Personally, I find this too high a price to pay, considering the fact that we keep losing editors anyway.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should keep all those drafts per se, although no one has so far given a good reason what the harm would be in just waiting until they become stale and then G13'ing them, considering that those pages are not indexed and thus not seen by the outside world (people resubmitting a rejected draft without changes is not a problem with the draft and should be handled by sanctioning the editor). But I don't see a way to objectively codify this in a way to prevent the aforementioned mistakes. For example, someone recently raised the case
    WP:NPOL#1 as a state legislator. As such, it would now meet the suggested criteria for deletion (see above) and would likely be deleted by an admin with a "loose" interpretation of speedy deletion (despite never ever meeting A7 if it were in article-space). In the end, this seems a solution that might lead to babies being thrown out with the bathwater and considering the amount of A7-mistakes made in article space, it's hard to envision that there will be less such mistakes in Draft-space. Regards SoWhy
    09:36, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
    • User:SoWhy, the harm would be in just waiting until they become stale and then G13'ing them is the lack of timely response to the author. Especially kid vanity and trolling, A7s and A11s that don’t deserve a week at MfD, but are patently unsuitable. It is not kinder to not tell the author what we know, and the auto-messaging of A7 and A11 is exactly what they need. Making submitted drafts eligible for A7 and A11 doesn't mean the reviewer has to speedy delete, but it is easy for reviewers to see that to leave the page live in draftspace is the wrong message and can only waste further time, whether author time, or reviewer time. G13 is for abandoned, it is not meant to be slow deletion for things that need immediate deletion. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:57, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
      • @SmokeyJoe: But don't they get a response that their draft is unsuitable when it gets rejected? So they are getting informed, aren't they? The question was, is there a reason why we have to delete them if those pages are not visible to the outside world anyway. After all, all speedy deletion carries the risk of good content being removed mistakenly so the benefits have to outweigh those risks significantly. Regards SoWhy 07:02, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
        • User:SoWhy, I’m largely working off the reaction of others who feel the patently hopeless crap (see the examples I have listed) is so offensive to them that they feel the need to dump it on mfd, where it takes up space, dilutes the quality of work there, and gets SNOW deleted, but in balance I think they are right. Currently, DraftSpace errs far on the side of preserving patently hopeless crap, at least for the six months following the author giving up. I am bothered by how slow that giving up process is. The fact that the patently hopeless made up story does not get deleted, but remains live with functional “edit” tabs, means to some patent crap submitters that they can continue to play the game. The number of good topics deleted I think is very small. Even the afc promoted articles are pretty mediocre, mostly orphan permastubs that don’t really pass notability but are so boring no deletionist will bother. The article about the high school dormitory bathroom, or the minecraft tunnel experience, it hurts the sanity of the reviewers to have no disposal route for them. If it were me, I’d make a {{Userpage blanked}} version for draftspace and replace the patently hopeless submission, easily reverted if I make a mistake, an abundantly clear message to the author, but I’m pushing for the sanity of the reviewers. Some make coherent arguments for why blanking is not good enough. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:39, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
  • How many are we talking about? I have MfD'd hopeless drafts before now, it doesn't seem to cause much burden. Guy (Help!) 09:57, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • As with previous proposals, I 1. remain unconvinced that there is any need for this, and 2. believe it to be antithetical to the whole point of drafts. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 14:14, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • The draft namespace is for allowing editors time to work on a proposed article without the possibility that it will be summarily deleted. The AFC submission is to allow the editor to get feedback on how to improve the article so it won't be summarily deleted in the main space. If we give a new editor one shot at getting a draft right we might as well shut down the draft namespace and AFC. ~ GB fan 14:36, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
There are thousands of declines, often multiple declines, that are clear A7 material where no amount of editing will help them. Draft space is for working on potential articles, not for developing and submitting material with zero chance of having a place in mainspace. Removing the junk helps us find and work with the promising much easier. Editors with almost no experience at AfC or MfD will raise uninformed philosophical objections unfortunately which just makes the work of ArC harder. Legacypac (talk) 17:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
I think you've mixed up your criteria; you say clear A7 material, but no amount of editing will help is fundamentally a statement about notability. A7 is not "not notable." ~ Amory (u • t • c) 18:30, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
I think he meant there is no way to write a credible claim of significance because there is no claim of significance for the person/organization/whatever. From what I've seen, many articles tagged under A7 pertain to a subject that has essentially no significance and "no amount of editing will help". However, there are definitely a few articles that fail to state significance, but a bit of research shows they are: deleting those submitted drafts under A7 would be damaging. I don't know whether we can say any new editor can find a 'credible claim of significance' in three tries, especially with the limited guidance given in the templates of declined draft submissions. Appable (talk | contributions) 18:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Nobody is arguing one shot to get it right, we're arguing three shots to get it non-speedyable. Surely you see the opposite side where submitting hopeless drafts over and over again is a wasteful drain on the community's resources? Tazerdadog (talk) 17:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Tazerdadog editors are clearly arguing one shot to get it right. SmokeyJoe uses Draft:Taylor Evans as an example of why we should do this. It has been submitted and declined once. Legacypac uses Draft:Greenwich Music School as an example and it also has been submitted and declined once. I do see the drain if pages are submitted multiple times with no or little improvement. That is a user conduct issue and can be dealt with as disruptive editing. ~ GB fan 18:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
  • As people have noted above these proposals miss the point of draft space. The whole idea is that if you need to work on a page without the threat that it will be deleted due to failing standards XYZ then you can work on it in draft space until it is up to scratch and then move it to mainspace. Deleting pages in draft space for failing standards XYZ makes this meaningless. This proposal wouldn't allow people any time at all to address certain decline reasons because the draft would be deleted shortly after it was declined. Anyone saying that these pages are causing loads of work at MfD needs to actually have a look there: as I write this there are a whopping 36 drafts nominated for deletion, many of which wouldn't qualify for this anyway. AfC reviewers are in my experience very harsh, I wouldn't conclude that a topic is hopeless from the fact that one has declined a submission. Hut 8.5 18:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, and this is still true for the "three-strikes" or "n-strikes" ideas. If I were new and didn't understand A7, being told I have one more submission before the article could be deleted unilaterally would be threatening: the point of draft-space is to avoid those situations. Appable (talk | contributions) 18:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

No one is talking about a full notability test A7 is "A7. No indication of importance (people, animals, organizations, web content, events)" which is a much lower standard. Reviewers are not typically sending the pages to MfD but declining them, then declining again, until someday it hits G13. Legacypac (talk) 18:42, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

That's the intent, but A7 is misapplied all the time in mainspace. Its bar often strays closer to "notability" than it really should. In mainspace this can be justified to some extent: there is a standard of quality. In draftspace, that isn't true anymore. Appable (talk | contributions) 18:53, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

No one is talking about a full notability test as "A7. No indication of importance (people, animals, organizations, web content, events)" which is a much lower standard. Reviewers are not typically sending the pages to MfD but declining them, then declining again, until someday it hits G13. Admins would use the same A7 standard with no change so it would not be up to afc reviewers only. Legacypac (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

I like that idea. We sometimes use G2 test on No Content Draft pages but it's not a perfect fit. Legacypac (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment 2 points:
    1. There's no real problem with letting pages that are in draft space and not submitted for AFC review (and potential promotion to mainspace) lie there and let G13 capture the stragglers. Concievable if the page is being edited it's being improved. If an editor stumbles across a draft that isn't in AFC and isn't being updated, the question of the draft
    2. I suggest not circumscribing or perscribing a "If X, Do Y" CSD rule regarding drafts. I would prefer a "AFC submission declined multiple times with no improvement" CSD rule so items that are slam dunks in MFD can short circuit the process. Hasteur (talk) 11:45, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I would like to see A11 being applied to submitted (or any, for that matter) drafts - A11 is designed to deal with pages that have
    no redeeming value whatsoever. A7 is more tricky -- there are the hopeless A7s and those that may be on notable subjects but notability was not established. I would support a CSD for drafts being resubmitted multiple (2-3) times without improvement. MER-C
    12:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Draft:Havin' a snat. If you don’t believe in speedy deletion A11 style in draft space, what process do you think should deal with this draft? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Draft:Taylor Evans? Should be speediable, not put through three rounds before deleting. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

User:Owenblist/sandbox clear A7 not promotional not vandalism but not worth taking to MfD or even keeping in AfC categories. Should be able to tag for deletion and done. Legacypac (talk) 00:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

User sandboxes, the user’s main sandbox, is a special page users are pointed to for testing. They should be blanked, not deleted, so the user can find their testing. AfC scripts should auto-detect their placement on a page titled “sandbox” and respond differently. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:02, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes in this case I'm comfortable blanking the sandbox but the example is exactly on point for the type of content we shoudk be aboe to speedy. Legacypac (talk) 01:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
For that specific one, I'm not sure why nobody tried G11. More generally, I would be much more comfortable with creating a new crteria for blatantly unsuitable drafts then I would be with extending all of the article criteria to apply to (submitted) drafts. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 05:10, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
OK, on review I can see that G11 could be seen to cover this. I note however that many Wikipedians look at these weak biographies and do not jump to thinking G11 worthy promotion. It is not for-profit promotion, and it doesn't read like a CV, discussion popular magazine stuff like childhood family and love life. A7 is what comes to mind. It is squarely A7 in mainspace. Would you prefer a new criterion called "D7" defined as "same as A7 but for submitted drafts in draftspace"? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • We do not, in my view, need or want anything of the sort. The draft above is at least arguably within G11, so no other speedy deletion criterion is required for it any any draft like it. Any that aren't quite promotional enough for G11 should face a quick MfD if they are as promotional as
    claim of significance To invite NPP to do the same in draft space would be a very poor move indeed. Much the same could be said of several of the A criteria -- they are marks of unfinished pages. Well one expects a draft to be unfinished. If it were finished, it would belong in mainspace. New editors take time to learn how to properly draft a Wikipedia article, and even experiencd users take time and multiple edits to create an article ready for mainspace. The speedy deletion criteria exist because there is wide consensus that certain kinds of pages do not belong here and that they are too numerous to go through the AfD process, which is normally a longer, better attended, and more through process than MfD. Articlespace is what we show the world, and so promotion and poor quality pages in it have a significant negative effect on the project as a whole. But draft space is not indexed by search engiens, and is normally seen only by the creator and a few Wikipedia editors. There is no reason to rush a draft creator, and there is no reason to delete a draft that isn't ready yet, but might eb eventually. There is no deadline. There is no size limit on draftspace. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs
    05:43, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Promotion very clearly is the intent here. There is no other reason to talk about her "exceptional personal charm," "capability of being friends with any strangers she meets," "hardworking businessman" father, or the fact that she is "waiting for her prince charming." Also, there's literally a banner at the top of this page saying new CSD criteria should not be created if an existing one can be interpreted to apply. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 06:05, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
I guess I have been reading "promotion" too narrowly. I read you and DES as being happy for a liberal reading of "promotion", a tight reading of A7, and broad agreement that these pages are speediable under some criteria. OK. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
"Promotion" means the text is doing nothing but non-neutrally advertising its subject. Saying that this also applies when people advertise themselves does not mean DES or C727 have a "liberal reading" of what promotion is but merely restating what G11 already says. Regards SoWhy 07:41, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Of all the "A" criteria, the only ones I think make excellent sense to extend to draft-space are A11 and A10. 1, 3, 7 and 9 could all apply to works-in-progress. Even A2 could be a work in progress. A5 seems unlikely to come up at all. But even in those two cases, I think it makes sense (outside of things like G3 and G11) to treat draft-space a little differently. Users that come through AFC are asking for a review of their work, after all. By that I just mean, if those drafts get deleted with no message at all to the creator, that would not be ideal - a little bitey, much worse than when it happens on mainspace. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:50, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Again, Someguy1221, the proposal is for submitted drafts. Even A11 shouldn't be applied to an unsubmitted draft. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:58, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
      • Yes, I could tell that from the HUGE TEXT IN THE HEADER :p Someguy1221 (talk) 06:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Here's an important question to me: is having a couple of people write "delete per nom" on a couple of MfD discussions per day really so much effort as to warrant fundamentally recasting article CSD criteria into the draftspace? Because I and several others believe that the article criteria are as written not suitable to be the applied to drafts, regardless of submission status. Their concepts, maybe, but not the criteria as worded. Another fundamental problem I have with applying article criteria to submitted drafts is that some users may not be confident that their drafts are ready for mainspace when they submit them: I know that if I were an inexperienced editor, I would want to submit a draft to AfC just to receive feedback on it. And I would (reasonably) expect that, if it's not ready, the worst thing that will happen is it will be rejected with an explanation of what to work on. Not some deletion that I wasn't consulted about and can't prevent. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 06:12, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I do argue that inviting a large stream of SNOW deleted through MfD is bad. However, that is not what you are arguing elsewhere, you are arguing to use G11 more liberally some would. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:09, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • No I did not miss the restriction to Submitted drafts. I have two reasons for not giving it much weight. First, I don't trust taggers and admins to adhere to it. How about we give it some teeth: an automatic 2-week block for anyone tagging an unsubmitted draft, and an automatic desysop for anyone deleting an unsubmited draft with such a reason? You don't like that? Well given what I have seen tagged as A7 now, often blatantly against the wording of the criterion, this looks likely to apply in effect to all drafts. Secondly, I don't believe that most new editors have any idea of the consequences that 'submitting" would have under this proposal, nor would they have even if the templates are revised to try to spell them out. SmokeyJoe said above that One does not expect a submitted draft to be unfinished, certainly not with with respect to a basic statement of significance. Well I surely do. The first submission is often only the first draft, so to speak. It isn't until the drafter starts getting feedback that drafts, even on probably notable topics, begin to approach the quality where they might be considered for mainspace, and where it might make sense for A7/A9 to apply. But by that time they won't apply. Empty pages (A3) I could see deleting, but only with a fairly long grace period. If something has sat empty for a month, fine, get rid of it. No context might make sense, except that a) I have see too many invalid non-context speedy tags in mainspace, and b) if the creator has enough context to work on the draft, that is probably enough if it is being worked on, and G13 will apply if it isn't. A11 again is far too often invalidly applied now. The original intent was for things like drinking games, private RPG accounts, and "gatherings" of a few friends. But I've seen it applied to arguably notable organizations, because the writer of the article had (allegedly) been involved in founding the organization, so it was "invented". I have seen it applied to published fiction, because the author must have invented it. And draft gets fewer eyes, so such erros will be less likely to eb found and corrected. So no, I don't find your arguments persuasive. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 06:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
    • I agree completely. I can probably give you a dozen examples of experienced editors ignoring the bounds of A7/A9 and tagging clearly notable subjects for speedy deletion (The White Company (retailer) comes to mind, twice kept at AFD with a single delete !vote between both nominations and both A7 tagging and AFD#2 by an admin with literally 10+ years of experience), so yeah, unless there are some actual consequences for misapplying speedy criteria, we always have to assume that they will be misapplied. And as long as that is the case, expanding A-criteria to an area that gets fewer eyes than article space will most likely result in more such mistakes and consequently more material that should be kept being lost, which is not in the project's interest. Regards SoWhy 07:41, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment - It would not be appropriate to extend the
    ACSD to drafts because drafts are unpublished works in progress that may meet one of the ACSD when started but not when expanded or finished. For example, one may start with an aspect of something that is not notable then adapt it to an aspect that is. — Godsy (TALKCONT
    ) 17:20, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
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