Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive980

I have messaged this user ten times over several weeks - no response, see

If on the other hand the material they have added is all rubbish, then the account can be immediately indeffed as a

vandalism only account. That seems unlikely, and we assume good faith

.

I looked at

1997-98 Croatian First A League, the article you most recently cited as unreferenced on the user's talk page. (I even made a little copyedit there.) It's stubby and I haven't looked at the others but it occurs to me that perhaps all ten of the articles at Category:Croatian First A League seasons

should be merged. That's assuming it's accurate and that sources do exist (but they don't need to be online or in English).

But the point here at AN/I is simply, is admin intervention the best next step? I think there are better alternatives at this stage. Perhaps for a start, ask the contributor where they are getting the information, and offer to help them write the appropriate refs. Writing references can be daunting, and newbies often assume that their local newspaper is not a reliable source just because it's not online, or not available outside their immediate area. Reassure them on this and the results might be a lot better. Andrewa (talk) 04:04, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Andrewa, I have asked the contributor where they got their information, but I have had no response to my messages. If someone won't communicate, it is impossible for me to help them on this. Ten messages over several weeks seems sufficient attempt to resolve this another way. Boleyn (talk) 07:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you have been patient. Could I have a diff of your best offer to help?

As a volunteer organisation, we have little opportunity to force people to do things they don't want to do. I'm assuming that this contributor wants to build the encyclopedia in this area, and is adding material that could be sourced and would be useful content if someone were to do that, and I'm looking for a way to achieve this.

If there's no prospect of sourcing the material, then it should be deleted. Perhaps we are already there. I'm not convinced of that, but that's not an ANI matter in any case.

If the material is disruptively recreated, then yes, it becomes an ANI matter, unfortunately. Andrewa (talk)

Collaboration and communication is necessary. Otherwise, blocks are. As simple as that. ~ Winged Blades^Godric 03:36, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the contribution. I would not oppose a block, there's no doubt IMO that it's justified by policy and it wouldn't be the first one for this rather problematic user. Mainly, I'm explaining why I'm not ready to do it myself. Either way I'll eventually try to communicate with this user myself but want to word it carefully. Andrewa (talk) 07:06, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I have sent Jvfmgnlllj ten messages over four months. All I have received in reply was one message on my talk page: 'I can not find any sources, I do not know how to edit. Can you please fix it or find it by yourself.' Yet they have continued to edit regularly during this time. I have repeatedly directed them towards

Same advice as above I think.

In fact even more so. They've asked for help. The best outcome for Wikipedia is we find it for them, unless they are

nothere, and we don't have a case for that yet. Hang in there! Andrewa (talk

) 03:54, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Andrewa, I offered them help, but they have not responded to subsequent messages, although they know how to post on my talk page and are continuing to edit. I have been trying to help them on this for four months, but have got nowhere. Boleyn (talk) 08:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Again, see above. I see this diff as an offer by yourself to help along exactly the right lines, that's the sort of diff I was after above. This user has a checkered history, with some good contributions and some previous blocks. They don't seem active on any other language Wikipedia.

But this does seem the better of the two on which to work, based on their reply which you quote above (thank you, diff would have been even better). They don't seem to understand what we mean by sources. As you say, they are getting this material from somewhere. That's probably all we need. And if we can solve this one, it may provide the example we need to solve the problem with #User:HHRIA123 above too.

There are some subtleties in the sources policy and guidelines that these users can't be expected to know. Sports results would be verifiable from local newspapers. While refs are highly desirable they're only essential if the material is challenged or likely to be challenged (

WP:BURDEN

which you cite and which is policy). I wouldn't consider sports results likely to be challenged and I very much doubt the contributor thought that. But you've challenged it. And there's no burden on you to provide your reasons, but I'd consider it constructive for you to do so, and only polite.

So I'd caution against escalating this by simply removing the material. You have the right to do so. But is it really the best way forward? Perhaps we should continue this discussion away from ANI, and I'm happy to do so. Andrewa (talk) 16:25, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

This is just one example of a constructive edit by the user concerned. Andrewa (talk) 20:03, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

User Jnewby1956 has made a legal threat [8]. reddogsix (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

•  Done (i.e. blocked). Swarm ♠ 22:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I've given as short and blunt an explanation as I can manage within the site's policies. If there's further copyvios, then a block is definitely in order. I'm not quite ready to say "WP:NOTHERE" yet. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:34, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Fast. Efficient. Fair. Thanks. Feel free to close. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:37, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is the right place for posting about that, but HostBot has restarted and is delivering broken teahouse invitation templates. Could somebody do something about it? L293D (☎ • ✎) 19:05, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

The bot's operator is active and appears to be taking care of that. –Ammarpad (talk) 19:18, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Edit filter means IPs cannot tag this. Anybody care to do the honours? -- BobTheIP editing as 2.28.13.202 (talk) 18:47, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks @

Beeblebrox:! -- BobTheIP editing as 2.28.13.202 (talk

) 19:13, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

At Talk:Nation of Islam#Do not delete my comments until you take action on lies. and Talk:Nation of Islam#For REAL members of the Nation Of Islam Afrodizifunk3 (talk · contribs) is misusing the talk page. I've deleted his edits twice and tried to explain on his talk page but he clearly doesn't not understand what I'm saying. 18:36, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Just noticed this reply to me on his talk page that demonstrates the problem: "Why are you editing a Black American page regarding the Nation of Islam? Are you Black America." Doug Weller talk 18:39, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Anyone else getting a significant

WP:NOTHERE vibe? RickinBaltimore (talk

) 18:42, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I am informing them correctly of whats happening on wikipedia regarding their musical culture. The acid jazz page is a lie it's total disinformation. When I asked you what have you done about it you refused to answer my question and just deleted my comment proving that you have an agenda. If you were a real editor you would want to look into it. You don't. In taking no action you have proven yourself to be suspect. Just like those on the acid jazz page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afrodizifunk3 (talk • contribs) 18:53, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

This edit illustrates the

WP:NOTHERE nature of the OP. MarnetteD|Talk

19:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@Afrodizifunk3: If you want to leave a message for Doug Weller (instead of everyone who pays the slightest attention to administrative matters), you can do so at his user talk page: User talk:Doug Weller. Also, we don't restrict editing of articles by race. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:04, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

AND also one of the major reasons I went to the NOI page is that it seems no editors that I ve seen so far can be trusted. This person is one of them. Why don’t you look into the fake editors on the acid Jazz talk page for example. He informs me that this is an encyclopedia. Then does nothing when informed about a page of lies saying he knows nothing about jazz. This is what an administrators are like on Wikipedia. And you expect us to donate to this website? II will be going to the Nation Of Islam.If you like I will start up a campaign to get African Americans to Boycott wikipedia including all the rappers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afrodizifunk3 (talk • contribs) 19:07, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@

WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. MarnetteD|Talk

19:11, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

User:MoldyOne appears to be a vandalism only account. The only (6) edits that this user has made has been to the List of ArmaLite rifles where he continues to claim that ArmaLite AR-15 is a semi-auto rifle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/MoldyOne. Despite being repeatedly told otherwise. Apparently, he believes that the article titled "List of ArmaLite rifles" is somehow referring to the Colt AR-15.--RAF910 (talk) 16:56, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Content dispute. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:31, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

that is because it is a Semi Automatic Rifle, it has no selector switch and only fires one round per trigger pull, to say otherwise makes it a Assault Rifle with multiple fire modes and Illegal to own by Federal law — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoldyOne (talk • contribs) 18:10, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I would also like to point out it is not Vandalism to state that all AR-15 rifles are the same, it doesnt matter what manufacturer makes it, they are all the same, i have also added links to show that it is the same rifle and the rifle they are referring to was redesgnated M-16. this can easily be fixed by putting in a note that there is a difference between the AR-15 and the M-16 which is a Assault Rifle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoldyOne (talk • contribs) 18:18, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I reverted several edits from this IP because they were not following a neutral point of view. This IP is constantly adding their own analysis to articles and I think a block should be warranted here for this disruption. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:29, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

From the top of this page: Please include diffs to help us find the problem you are reporting. Fish+Karate 10:41, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@

WP:NPOV. Pkbwcgs (talk

) 10:50, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

That's great, thanks. Fish+Karate 12:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Spacecowboy420 (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly insinuating that I am a Nazi based on my username including the number "88" (a reference to the year of my birth, whose potential, fairly obscure, neo-Nazi associations I wasn't aware of until after I adopted it -- it's only come up twice before, but I still have to explain it on my user page anyway because of how apparently inflammatory it is). It started when he referred to me as "Hijari88", and I asked him not to; he then said that he would call me "88" instead.[9][10]

This was clearly not an accidental coincidence, as he just happened to make an edit to a page about neo-Nazis a half-hour later.[11] He also indicated that he was aware of a tongue-in-cheek discussion about number-symbolism I was having elsewhere.[12][13]

Anyway, I asked him either to explain how his new nickname for me was not meant to accuse me of being a fascist or to retract and apologize,[14] and he refused,[15] instead doubling down and calling me "Hachi-ju-hachi" (Japanese for "eighty-eight") three more times in a row.[16]

Could someone please explain to him how outrageous it is to compare other users to Nazis, and perhaps block him if he

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:38, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Firstly (and to state the obvious) his name is Hijiri88. It's part of his name.

I had mistakenly called him "Hijari" in a previous comment and he complained, so I suggested that I just call him 88. Again, this might be stating the obvious but I had assumed that if he chose "88" as part of his name, then he wouldn't mind be called "88" - the same as if someone addresses me as "420", I'm certainly not about to take offence.

Yes, I did call him "Hachi-ju-hachi" - which translates to 88 in Japanese - my full comment was "Hachi-ju-hachi kun wa san ju sai desu ka? Dakara namai wa hachi-ju-hachi?" which means "Mr 88 are you 30 years old? Therefore your name is 88" - due to someone being born in 1988 being 30 years old.

So obviously, I'm not calling him a Nazi - I'm asking him if his name refers to his age, in response to him claiming that I called him a Nazi based on the use of "88"

To be blunt, I (like most sane people) dislike Nazis and if I were under the impression that he was a Nazi, I wouldn't address the issue with veiled and ambiguous terms, I would just call him a Nazi.

This is all a non-issue, but it might be in part due to my poor use of Japanese, I may have made errors in my Japanese grammar which resulted in a misunderstanding, but that's something that a far better speaker or Japanese would have to confirm. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:56, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)(edit conflict) No, I explicitly demanded an explanation of you before you wrote that romanized Japanese remark, and I even explicitly said directly above it that if you didn't own up and retract it you should be reported on ANI, so how it could be a non-issue spinning out of a comment you made after that escapes me.

Are you going to acknowledge how grossly inappropriate your comments (which were clearly meant to get me to stop telling you you can't violate BLP by insinuating that a Japanese musical group are best-known for a 2015 blackface incident) were, or at least apologize for the misunderstanding (if that is what it was) and promise to be more careful in the future, or not?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:09, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As silly as this all is, I'll confirm that SC420 was apparently asking about Hijiri's birth year:「八十八くんは三十歳ですか? だから名前は八十八?」 I hate not being able to fall asleep. No comment on intent though. EvergreenFir (talk) 08:07, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

• Spacecowboy420 makes absurd edits like this and has a good ability to troll those who resist, as shown in the diffs posted by Hijiri 88 above. Unfortunately there is no policy against making absurd edits so it will have to battled out at each article. However, trolling is blockable and Spacecowboy420 needs to stop. Johnuniq (talk) 08:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: There's BLP. He has been blocked before for trying to reinsert counter-consensus content in violation of ArbCom sanctions on that topic area, and is doing the exact same thing on the Momoiro Clover page. And he's apparently logging out to create the illusion of not being the only editor who shares his POV: the mysterious IP that has been helping him is in the same range as the one that both NSH001 and Edward321 reported as being him back in December. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:13, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Saw this pop-up since I am watching the article for a different discussion, and thought I might as well take the liberty to comment since Hijiri gave me the same honour above. In my personal opinion, having a look at the discussion, it appears that Spacecowboy was unintentionally spelling Hijiri wrong and due to his tone this was inferred to be an intentional slight. This put the two users on completely different footings, with Hijiri heading down the Nazi track due to some unfortunate past experiences while Spacecowboy was just trying to figure out what Hijiri wanted to be called and ended up painting himself into a strange corner. If I could make a suggestion, it would be that the two agree that things have gotten strangely off-track, that feelings have been hurt, and that they both need to do better to understand each other, and then get back to the issue that they were originally discussing. As for the whole socky, IP thing, I'll leave that to more experienced users than I. That's just my two cents guys, happy editing! - adamstom97 (talk) 08:42, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Just to correct a small point about the second sentence of the above, I didn't take "Hijari" as an intentional slight. A bunch of good-faith editors have misspelled my username and I usually respond by laughing it off. The problem here is that whether or not "Hijari" was an intentional slight (and I don't think it was), responding to my request that he spell the "Hijiri" part of my name correctly by picking an entirely separate part of my username that could be taken out of context to associate me with Nazism, in a dispute where he was already making me and others feel very uncomfortable about supposedly white-washing/downplaying a super-serious and noteworthy blackface incident in the BLP in question, was clearly meant as bad-faith trolling. And there's also this that happened before the whole thing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:30, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

"And he's apparently logging out to create the illusion of not being the only editor who shares his POV" don't make silly sock claims about everyone who disagrees with you.

WP:ASPERSIONS

might be relevant in this situation. Or, just ask me "Do you have sock accounts?" and I will be happy to answer.

But you're right. There have been sock puppet reports concerning me. Sock puppet reports that were all closed because I'm not using sock puppets or sock IPs.

If you still think I'm using sock puppets, then please file an SPI.

You're right again. (kinda) there is dispute over the Momoiro Clover article. That article is now locked and we can discuss the issue there.

Most importantly, this ANI report is to discuss your name and my use of it, not closed SPIs or protected articles.

And no, there is no attempt to troll - merely calling someone "88" due to their name containing "88" is not trolling. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:54, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@Spacecowboy420: No one's accusing you of having sock accounts. The portion of my comment that you quote even explicitly says that the problem is logging out to create the illusion of being multiple people. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:31, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I knew 88 (number) meant Good Fortune in Chinese and in BC we consider it a very good number. Chinese far out number Nazis around here though. Legacypac (talk) 09:23, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

It's a very good Chinese number her too; mixed meat fried rice I think :) Mmmm. —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap shit room} 09:29, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Please check https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/174.238.1.106. This user is clearly posting remarks based on racism on my talk page.U1Quattro (talk) 14:07, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I've moved to this to the bottom and here is a link to make it easier to check on the edits 174.238.1.106 (talk · contribs) MarnetteD|Talk 14:10, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Inexcusable personal attack, short block issued. Please feel free to ping me should similar behaviour continue after the block expires. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

For months now I have been verbally abused and harassed by this user across several different articles. It all came to a head again today when they made a bold edit to an article I watch which I reverted, and then refused to follow

This is not the first time this user has insisted on an article remaining as their preferred version after making bold edits, for example I restored this article to the status quo while a discussion took place last September, and it was reverted within 20 minutes without explanation. Or here, where I made an edit based on talk page consensus and was reverted again; another user got involved, and they were reverted because Jack Sebastian wouldn't accept a version of the article that he did not 100% approve of. Here he tried to use BRD against me when he was the first one to make a bold edit, as was pointed out in the next edit by another user.

The discussions that did take place at

The issues at The Gifted led to administrator action previously: Jack Sebastien reported me at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive351#User:Adamstom.97 reported by User:Jack Sebastian (Result: Protected) for my behaviour in response to his, which led to the page being protected and Jack Sebastian's aggressive behaviour calming down for a bit, but it did not take long for him to get going again. The next time, Jack was reported by another user at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive972#Jack Sebastian's edit-warring, personal attacks and hounding/stalking. That led to an IBAN between those two editors, but did not stop the way Jack treats me or his behaviour around Wikipedia. I know that I don't help myself sometimes with continuing to revert one or two more times before discussing, but that is always with the intention of stabilizing the article before sorting out the issue at the talk page, not enforcing my will on everyone else.

Dealing with all of this for months wore me down, and led to me leaving Wikipedia for a significant period of time over the holiday break. I thought this was all behind me, but now I have been thrown right back into it. I edit Wikipedia because I enjoy it, and because there is a small group of articles that I am invested in and put a lot of work into. I have a good working relationship with most of the editors that regular work on those articles, and enjoy making it part of my day. But whenever Jack Sebastian shows up, I know that I am going to be treated with contempt, sworn at, and reverted without good reason, including in the face of things like BRD and STATUSQUO which help everybody get along better and make the right decisions. I'm just sick of the aggression and threats, but have decided that I am not going to run away this time. I don't know what the best cause of action is here, I just don't want to see him get away scot-free while others like me stop doing what we love to accommodate him. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:43, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - I am not familiar with either editor here. Threats violate
  WP:CIVIL. Jack Sebastian has a previous history of light-weight blocks for edit warring. Light-weight, in the fact that the longest one (1 week) was lifted after only a few hours on a promise not to edit war again. He later got blocked again for edit warring. This is a pattern. Maybe it's time to consider some stronger restrictions here. — Maile (talk
  ) 01:07, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I find it interesting (read: offensive) how Adamston seems to have take to heart the saying, "A good defense is a good offense." After all, I asked him to self-revert after reverting three times in very quick succession (1, 2, 3). I went to his page to let him know that a) Edit-warring is a stupid way to build consensus, and b) that our EW blocking policy isn't an electric fence - you can get blocked for less than three edits if you are using it incorrectly to force your POV on others. Clearly, his take-away from that discussion was to report me before I could report him.

I gave him an hour to self-revert and use the discussion page instead. Because of our previous interactions, he knows full well that I meant what I said, and so thus decided to post about my "behavior" instead: this complaint is cynical attempt to muddy the waters of the AN:3R complaint that was coming. This is what Adam does; he's done it before at least twice. And yeah, he was called out on a racist edit, suggesting that all Asians ewre essentially interchangeable. Uncool doesn't even begin to fill that gap of AGF, deepened by the fact that not only did the user fail to apologize for it, but claims still that they were utterly innocent.

Despite this not being the place for content issues, I'd point out that my revert simply asked for sources that supported a statement (knowing that any in support were likely outlier opinions). After the revert, I initiated discussion, not Adamston. He replied once and then reverted again. As per his usual behavior.

Lastly @Maile66:, I'd point out that up until 7 months ago, I had not been blocked in 4 years. Maybe that shouldn't serve as a "pattern" of my behavior. While it is absolutely true that I do not suffer edit-warriors with anything resembling grace, I never call anyone on their bullshit unless they were absolutely deserving of it. So I respectfully submit that you are being subjected to some passive aggressive dancing by Adamstom. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 01:56, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

These editors were both involved in an ANI thread recently, with archives at

π, ν

) 01:58, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I think you are linking the wrong AN/I threat, power-enwiki. I think you meant to link to an AN/3R: oopsie. I guess it might seem Machiavellian to point out that Adamstom's typical behavior of walking right up to the 3RR electric fence is pretty much his thing. He does it all the time, and others have commented on it s well. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:13, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The one I link contains (in its voluminousness) a proposal of an IBAN between "Jack Sebastian and Adamstom.97", and the history there will be of interest to ANI participants.

π, ν

) 02:16, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Oh my goodness, you are right; Adamstom did have a small part to play in that. And it looks like you were part of it, too. Interesting that you would just "happen" to stop by, whenever Adamstom ends up in the thick of things. Hmmm. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:03, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I comment on many ANI threads, for reasons yet to be determined. I'm not sure whether I was on your side or AlexTheWhovian's in that thread, though I suspect I was on the side of "can't you all get along or else let's TBAN the lot of you to save some time".

π, ν

) 03:06, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Dude, first you misrepresent the previous AN/I as being about Adamstom and I, and then pretend that you were nothing but a hapless passerby. Do you really need someone to point out your apparent lack of integrity here, and post your less-than-neutral remarks from that page and elsewhere? Come on, son; don't piss on our legs and tell us its raining. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:15, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Do you want me to support some kind of ban for you (when it inevitably comes up; I don't have the slightest idea why you should be banned from anything right now, other than your aspersions)? You're campaigning pretty hard for it. Just because I remember your ANI history better than you do doesn't make me biased against you, unless you ask me to be biased against you.

π, ν

) 03:20, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Of course not, but you're the one who added a fairly prejudicial link, intimating that it has everything to do with this discussion. I'll point out that Adamstom was the one who started reverting here, and didn't stop until he came up to the electric fence. I initiated dialogue. I even warned the other user to self-revert and participate more fully in discussion. Their respnse? Report me to AN/I. The way I see it, I have a small but dedicated group of ego-driven editors who OWN articles and engage in petty edit-wars. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:40, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I've had the missfortune of being on the receiving end of Jack Sabastian's abuse. He's a Grade A douce who has been warned to knock it off on my talk where he opins of my editing while banning me from his talk. Lots of people are banned from his talk it seems. Anyone is welcome to use my talk page to work themselves into trouble. Legacypac (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

It's spelled "douche", as in harsh douche-canoe. It's nice to know that my adoring fanclub takes time out of their "edits" to come and say hi. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:27, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

After chastising

I raised this issue because of Jack's general behaviour and patterns of harrassment, not the specific editing issues in the diffs provided. Those can be discussed in more appropriate places such as the respective article talk pages. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:56, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The content area of "new/upcoming films/TV shows" isn't that large; if you can't work together one (or both) of you is going to end up with a TBAN which will make you avoid that area.

π, ν

) 04:10, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

This isn't about being able to work together, I have no problem working with Jack when he treats me appropriately. But those moments are fleeting, and it always goes straight back to the swearing and the personal attacks at my talk page, and now threatening me is the next step. I don't want to stop editing these articles again, which is why I came here instead of taking another Wikibreak like I did last time. - adamstom97 (talk) 04:23, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I personally find it difficult to edit collaboratively when you prefer to edit-war instad of talk: that is pretty much the sum total of my issue with you, Adamstom. Well, that, and your assumption that my salty language is directed at you. It is not about you; its the way I talk. When I ask you to revert, it isn't becaus ei am threatening to go all Verbal Fisticuffs™ on you, but because your (imo) OWNy behavior is corrosive to collaborative editing. I absolutely despise editors who discuss via edit summary instead of, you know, actually discussing.

When reverted, go to the talk page, and stay there until you find a solution; don't throw acronyms, use reasoned discussion. Do that, and 98% of our problems vanish like a fart in the wind (well, that and not make ill-advised comments about race). - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:31, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

• To avoid this turning into an even greater wall of text I suggest that Jack Sebastian and Adamstom.97 stop the back-and-forth and pretend that, here, they have a limited IBAN and may not post any comment about one another without supporting diffs. This will make it more likely for them to get issues addressed. I generally dislike IBANs but, unless you two can demonstrate some minimal ability to discuss things politely and concisely, I think, based on behavior here and at the linked ANI, that is the way to go. Jbh ^Talk 12:42, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

It isn't like I go looking for the user. I just do my Editing Thang in a fairly limited scope of articles,a and didn't participate in edit-warring. It may seem like a minor distinction, but an important one. It isn't unreasonable to expect discussion in place of edit-warring. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 00:17, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Not this again!? I have found the OP, adamstom.97, to be a very uncooperative editor, who frequently auto-reverts edits without attempting to discuss first (putting the "status quo" as determined arbitrarily by him above reasoned arguments for changes), expresses a poor understanding of our content policies (particular NOR and V) and behaves in an extremely uncivil manner to anyone who disagrees with him. Jack Sebastian, on the other hand, has a good grasp on policy (even if I don't agree with him a lot of the time) only behaves in a questionable manner when repeatedly pushed and goaded. To the best of my knowledge, the conflict between the two began when adamstom.97 made a remark that could very easily be read as at the very least racially insensitive, and when Jack pointed this out Adam became extremely defensive, insisting multiple times over e course of several months that he "is not a racist", without once considering that perhaps his style of rhetoric could be easily misinterpreted and perhaps he should reform. I have thought for a long time that something would eventually need to be done about adamstom.97's behaviour, but a mutual IBAN with one of the editors whom he has targeted is definitely not the solution. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:45, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: Although I must complement Mr. Sebastian for teaching me a lot about
  beware the BOOMERANG after filing such a report and his heated arguments with users such as AlexTheWhovian (Update - iBAN in progress between the users DarkKnight2149 06:00, 26 March 2018 (UTC)) at one point extended to one of them insulting his child, before the conversation poored over to my Talk Page after I intervened. DarkKnight2149
  05:31, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: You may not be aware, but Jack Sebastian and an editor you pinged in the above comment are subject to a two-way interaction ban.[17][18] If the editor you pinged were to comment here, he would likely be blocked, and if Jack replied to you he would run the risk of being accused of skirting the boundaries of the ban, and while I don't doubt that it was a good-faith mistake on your part, it might be a good idea to blank or strike the last sentence of your comment to avoid giving the appearance of trying to bait Jack into violating his IBAN. I looked into the dispute between the users in question back in December, and while there was certainly mudslinging on both sides I found Jack to be generally the less aggressive of the two, so he should not be expected to stand by while something he supposedly said about another editor's child (!?) is relitigated on ANI months after he agreed not to interact with that editor again. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:53, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I was aware of their many conflicts (a couple of which I tried to derail as a neutral party), but not the iBAN. I have delinked his name and crossed out the mentioning. DarkKnight2149 06:00, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Jack Sebastian, you make excellent points in a combative and confrontational fashion. I suggest that you make your excellent points in a friendly, collaborative fashion instead. Try it. That approach works wonders. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:27, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@

jumping out the gate with guns blazing and walked away immediately in disgust. The one exception is when suggestions are made while the articles in question are under GA review. Every time I've seen the problem show up on ANI, the editors at fault filibustered the discussion with massive walls of text. If more admin eyes were watching the articles and their talk pages (or if the community didn't tacitly support the idea that GAISASHIELD) that might force into place a situation where the normal civil cooperative approach worked wonders as it normally does elsewhere on the project, but... Hijiri 88 (聖やや

) 10:17, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Sometimes even solutions proposed during a GA review are dismissed with "it's not OR; it's taken from the primary source", even though "the primary source" is

an original combination of mutually contradictory throw-away lines in the film and its direct prequel, and completely different information gleaned from the source material from which the two films were loosely adapted. Hijiri 88 (聖やや

) 22:53, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

• Potential solution: I'm not taking anyone's side here, but I think a reasonable resolution to this discussion (and a way to end it without blocking anyone) would be a temporary TBAN for Jack Sebastian from Marvel-related film and television articles. This wouldn't be punitive nor a declaration that either user is THE one to blame (or that either one is in the right), but here's my reasoning:

1. Most of the major articles and disputes that Sebastian has been involved in that I have observed have mostly been from comic-related TV and film articles (especially Marvel adaptations), or they have been with users that mainly edit such articles like Adamstom, the iBANNED AlexTheWhovian (Do NOT reply, for your sake; no one has accused you of anything here),
   WP:COMICS ban, just a temporary Marvel TV and film ban. Articles pertaining to Marvel Comics, comics, or comic-adapations in general would still be completely on the table. DarkKnight2149
   22:35, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@Darkknight2149: But Adamstom.97 and co. are the ones behaving disruptively and violating our content policies on those articles, not Jack Sebastian; TBANning the latter would only make the problem worse as then they would be motivated to request TBANs for everyone who points out that they are wrong on the policy. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:53, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: Respectfully, it doesn't matter who started it and this isn't about the content itself. Not only have I not seen Adamstom and the others violate anything myself (though I would be 100% open to looking at any diffs sent my way), but there really isn't an excuse for getting into constant battles and being uncivil with other users. Nearly all of these battles have started at these article and with users that edit such articles, and Sebastian has a larger editing range than just Marvel TV/film. Given that the others have contributed moreso to most of these articles, and that Sebastian has been quick to edit war and initiate disagreement in a confrontational manner, it would be far more reasonable (in my opinion) to ban him from these articles than every other editor he has come into contact with. He has also been warned in the past by administrators about using ANI threats as a more of a sword than a shield from disruptive behaviour. The TBAN that I suggested wouldn't be anything substantial (perhaps merely a month or so, depending on what administrators see fit) and would only include Marvel TV and film articles and absolutely nothing else. ANI doesn't deal with content disputes, it deals with incidents of incivility and disruption. With the constant Sebastian/Whovian wars, the situation was settled with a mutual interaction ban. But if Sebastian is continuing to initiate or participate in fights with other users even after, this seems like a viable option. DarkKnight2149 23:42, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@

WP:LOCALCONSENSUS; certain editors in an echo chamber have been forcing out the opinions of the wider project, writing articles based on their own poor sourcing standards, pushing them through GAN (which, I can attest as the nominator of a bunch of GAs myself, is not a very scrutinizing process -- most of my reviewers have not even been able to read the sources, but didn't even bring that up), and then using the GA status of the articles to auto-revert edits they don't like. ANI doesn't deal with content disputes, it deals with incidents of incivility and disruption. Actually, ANI doesn't deal with content disputes when all there is is a good-faith content dispute; it deals with edit-warring, violation of content policies and the like all the time, and in fact TBANs are hardly ever placed solely for "incivility" without even looking at the content, as this would be a very bad precedent. And you don't seem to have understood the circumstances that led to the IBAN you have now brought up for the third time (again, this is looking increasingly like baiting) -- it was an unfortunate compromise to get the filibustering to stop, and I know because I was the one who spearheaded it, and it actually spun out of the same Adamstom/Jack dispute as this, which Adam initiated by making a comment that anyone who lives in Asia would very likely interpret as racist, and then ragging on Jack for months with the "I'm not a racist" non-response. Hijiri 88 (聖やや

) 23:58, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

BTW, I'm sorry if the parenthetical "baiting" bit looks like an assumption of bad faith, but I was the one who convinced Jack to take the voluntary mutual IBAN because I saw him as being harassed, and bringing up another editor's voluntary mutual IBANs as "precedent" for further one-way sanctions is a pretty low-blow. I've had it done to me in the past, and I don't see why Jack should have to put up with it, especially when he is unable to defend himself as this discussion is not about the user with whom he is IBANned. If you do not stop bringing it up having now been warned, I think a one-way sanction of some sort should be put in place for you. Again, you admitted that you didn't even know about the IBAN until yesterday, and you clearly haven't read through the long discussion that led to it in the mean time, as you are saying you have not seen any of the diffs that were presented there, as you said above I [have] not seen Adamstom and the others violate anything myself (though I would be 100% open to looking at any diffs sent my way). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:15, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@

WP:SANCTIONGAMING

again, I will be more than happy to take you to the Arbitration Committee, because I still have evidence on you collated from the last incident and it's pretty damning (along with the four other users that assisted you). We're not going to have a repeat of the last incident. If you don't like what I have to say, I suggest that you do not reply to me at all. The last thing we need our past dispute being dragged into the middle of this.

"And you don't seem to have understood the circumstances that led to the IBAN you have now brought up for the third time" - Actually, I am well aware of the heated wars and personal attacks that went on for months between Alex and Sebastian. Not only have I observed several of these instances but, as previously pointed out, they at one point spilled over onto my Talk Page when I calmly intervened. I have also personally observed the behaviour I named from him, such as him being quick to edit war, quick to threaten ANI, making unreasonable demands when it comes to citing sources (some of which I have named above) in an overtly confrontational manner, him constantly getting into fights with other users, and multiple users on this thread have pointed out very similar behaviour. Not only that but, in the diffs you just showed me, Adam is clearly peeved but I would hardly call them uncivil enough to warrant sanctions. In fact, I'd say your assumption of

WP:BADFAITH is easily more disruptive than Adam's words in those diffs, which you probably put forth to spark another dispute in hopes of inviting Drmies

to help you drive me out of the discussion (and, trust me, there will be no dispute between us here; either you ignore what I have to say, we reply to each other civilly, or it's off to ArbCom the moment you attempt something). I'm not taking the bait.

I'm not using the IBAN as a precedent for anything. I'm using Jack Sebastian's past behaviour as precedent for this. And reading the comments of other users on this post, including administrators, it's clear that I'm not the only one who has observed this behaviour from him for the past few years. Show me some genuinely undeniable disruptive and uncivil behaviour from Adamstom, and maybe I will drop my proposal. But even then, getting into constant fights with people who edit a very specific topic (in this case, Marvel TV/film) definitely warrants the question of a TBAN. Whereas you are more concerned about content differences, I am more concerned about genuine disruption. DarkKnight2149 01:29, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Wait, what? You're the one who brought up Alex three times in a row, twice after I told you not to. The fact is that the IBan between the two was mutual and voluntary on both editors' parts, so trying to bring it up as a precedent for a further one-way sanction is inappropriate, and putting Jack in a position where he is unable to respond to your comments because they relate to an unrelated sanction that he subjected himself to but he is unable to discuss without potentially getting blocked is

simply waiting it out and then pretending nothing had happened) with one with a fixed term, you are really playing with fire making partisan, one-sided proposals while ignoring the diffs of disruption on the part of the other side. Hijiri 88 (聖やや

) 01:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

FTR, I did not read most of DK's long post above beyond the edit summary and the first sentence, and was not aware that he'd already pinged Drmies -- ironically with the claim that Drmies is some kind of shill for me, even though he's blocked me more than anyone else and ... some other stuff that I'm really not happy talking about. If anything, the fact that I was not the first to invoke DK's previous sanctions in the relevant topic area demonstrates that I am not the one holding a grudge here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:21, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Firstly, you are not the boss of me. Second, by continuing to state "The fact is that the IBan between the two was mutual and voluntary on both editors' parts, so trying to bring it up as a precedent for a further one-way sanction is inappropriate" demonstrates that you clearly didn't read half of what I said. I also never implied that Sebastian is the only person in the wrong in all of this. Until you can be more appropriate, I'm afraid I have said all I have to say to you. I know what you are attempting and my warning is final. If you expect me to argue with you here or dive into the past, we most certainly

won't be doing so here. I won't be surprised if this little encounter of ours doesn't get hatted off by someone who is probably wondering what the heck we're even talking about. Such a threat and assumption of bad faith was clearly very deliberate, inappropriate and, given our history, biased - "And you don't seem to have understood the circumstances that led to the IBAN you have now brought up for the third time (again, this is looking increasingly like baiting)... If you do not stop bringing it up having now been warned, I think a one-way sanction of some sort should be put in place for you." DarkKnight2149

02:00, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

No, I read your first several comments from start to finish before replying, but the last was mostly a response to your edit summary and opening sentence; I have no further desire to read your off-topic attacks on me. You cannot invoke a mutual, voluntary IBAN as evidence for further one-way sanctions (I know this from experience -- I've been the subject of three mutual, voluntary IBANs in the past, and two of them have been used in attempts to get further sanctions on me in unrelated disputes). And you definitely did propose a one-way sanction for Jack, regardless of whether you implied that Sebastian is the only person in the wrong in all of this (something I never accused you of implying). Please stop lashing out at me for politely telling you to stop, like you have just done above (and on my talk page); it can almost be guaranteed that it will not end well for you, even if I myself would much rather this whole thread were closed as a trainwreck and everyone went their separate ways with no sanctions. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:12, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

• Sigh. Jack, I don't even remember what we were once in a dispute about, but you really need to chill out man. I wish you would take some advice and agree to do so, and show a little personal perspective on the issue. GMG^talk 00:20, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

If we had a dispute, GreenMeansGo it must have either been so long ago or something so small that I don't recall, either.

It's totally true that I could probably be a lot less snippy with others when dissent arises. I utterly despise OWN-y behavior, and do see a lot of that in comic-book related articles. When editing there, I am - 9 times out of 10 - tagging uncited material (as an aside, DK made a snarky comment about how I'd ask for a citation of Batman Beyond to the Batman; that isn't true, but it does bear pointing out that the Batman depicted in BB is not the Batman from the comic books). Entertainment-related articles very often get crufty with fan forum stuff, so they need the extra attention.

Since I don't have a lot of time to devote to Wikipedia, I focus on putting out the little fires and making the little course corrections that I can. DK opined that I am always the edit-warrior here is at best missing recent history as well as the point: I am almost always the one who initiates discussion, or suggests widening the loop via RfC when problems cannot get sorted out between two editors.

While I have interests outside comic book and comic book film- and tv-adaptations, I enjoy cleaning those up. I am not interested in a topic ban that removes half of my reason for editing.

I am not blameless in this; I have admitted that I am 'God's Little Unfinished Art Project', and often have trouble suffering unpleasant people. But I will make more of an effort to do so. If they get to out of hand, I will just widen the observational loop so that others can weigh in on what I think is poopy-head behavior. No more calling anyone a "harsh douche-canoe" unless a consensus opinion emerges that they are indeed such.

Does that solve the problem? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:40, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

To be fair, I said Batman Begins and not Beyond, and the comment wasn't intended to be snarky as much as it was to point out that you can be a bit too extreme at times when it comes to citing sources. However, with that aside, everything else you said does sound somewhat understandable and my only concern here is the edit warring, incivility, ETC, which has also been mutual at times and not 100% just you. I am willing to drop my proposal on the terms that you make more of an effort to be less confrontational and try to deal with the incivility of others better. When you return insults and whatnot, administrators will see it as equally disruptive, even if you didn't start it. DarkKnight2149 05:13, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

On a side note, I can't speak for Hijiri88, but do feel obligated to apologise that our little encounter interrupted this discussion, especially considering that this discussion is about avoiding confrontations. DarkKnight2149 05:23, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, the irony wasn't lost on me. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I haven't commented here in a bit since it seemed to be going off-topic and I was busy with some real world stuff. To keep this simple, this is not about any particular content issues. Jack and I can sort those out fine ourselves, even if it may take a while. This section is simply about some of Jack's specific behaviour. I don't volunteer my time to improving this Wikipedia just to be sworn at, accused of racism and be subjected to racist comments by the same person, or to be threatened on my own talk page. Regardless of who is being more stubborn and borderline-disruptive (I believe that Jack and I are pretty even on that one given I like to revert first, start a discussion if it is still a problem later, and Jack likes to keep his personal version of an article first and change it if new consensus is formed against him, neither of which seem to be ideal), this behaviour is not okay and I would like him to at least be warned about talking to other editors or threatening them moving forward. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:19, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97: @Jack Sebastian: This discussion has become barren in terms of activity. If you can both agree to try to be non-confrontational in your disagreements, then I don't see any reason for this to continue or for anyone to be sanctioned. Right now, separate users on this page have accused both sides of disruptive activity but if you can show that this sort of thing won't be happening again or on a continued basis, I imagine administrators wouldn't have any issue with closing this discussion without sanctions. DarkKnight2149 19:54, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Things seem to have calmed down now. Hopefully we can move forward without further issues. - adamstom97 (talk) 20:08, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Yep. Things certainly are calm when everyone else just chooses to ignore adamstom.97's continued refusal to focus on content or engage in civil discussion. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:06, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Dammit. I thought this had just about wrapped. At any rate, I would encourage the next commentor to instill an Arbitrary Break. This probably isn't ending until an administrator intervenes. DarkKnight2149 21:59, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Hijiri's problem

The discussion that our friend

Frankly, if the incivility between you and Sebastian is over, we might as well close this before there's more stirring of the pot. DarkKnight2149 19:05, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

It has only been about a week and a half since an IBAN was enacted against Alansohn here. I have kept up my end of the agreement and not nominated any article for deletion which Alansohn has made a significant contribution to. However, Alansohn has violated his IBAN in reply to an AfD discussion that I started in this edit In the ANI discussion it was specifically proposed that "This would specifically mean no participation in AfDs started by Rusf10". As is usual, Alansohn does not follow the rules and the ban needs to be enforced.--

• WP:POLITICIAN etc) is exactly the drama the imposed sanctions were intended to avoid. Do we need to vote or can an admin impose a sanction without a vote? Legacypac (talk
  ) 23:58, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

I cannot take administrative action here because I am involved as a participant in the AfD. However, this appears to me to be a clearcut violation of the IBAN. Can an uninvolved administrator take a closer look? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:17, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Unless the IBAN is two-way, it's unfair. It's bogus. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:18, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The IBAN has a matching TBAN Baseball Bugs. It's hardly bogus and is easy to follow. Alansohn has zero edits [20] to the page nominated to AfD and zero reason to be on that page. Rusf10 is 100% in the clear here on his restriction. I'd be all over Rusf10 too if he was flaunting his TBAN. Legacypac (talk) 00:23, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Legacy I have to strongly disagree with you saying Alansohn has zero reason to be there. How can you ignore his long history of involvement with New Jersey articles. If anything related to NJ is up for deletion, you have to expect Alan might take part in the discussion....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 00:53, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what excuse Alan uses for being there, the IBAN was clear. It's his

Rusf10 (talk

) 01:06, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I struck the comment but I would not object to an admin taking some action to push the point home. Alansohn had to have the IBAN placed by the community as opposed to Rusf10 simply agreeing to his. Also, as I remember the last ANI, he has done nothing to accept that he has been part of the problem and must work to be part of the solution. Since there is really only one way to get a recalcitrant editor's attention it is probably time to start the whole 'escalating blocks' game. Jbh ^Talk 00:38, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

• No matter what excuse someone can create for Alansohn, the community came to a clear agreement on an I-ban (Alan)/T-ban (Rus) combo. Rus agreed to his conditions, but Alan never accepted that he was part of the problem, and this blatant violation tells me he
  did not hear the community the first time. A block is the obvious result.TheGracefulSlick (talk
  ) 01:23, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Then Rusf should be blocked for the same length of time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
    • That makes no sense, Bugs, unless you have detected something that none of the rest of us have. Rusf may be a determined deletionist, but they have not violated an IBAN or a TBAN. It appears that Alansohn has. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:02, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
      • It appears that the OP is fishing for violations. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:13, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The case for blocking Baseball Bugs for CIR based on his comments here is much stronger than for blocking Rusf10 who was going about his own business until Alansohn came around to challenge his AfD. Legacypac (talk) 02:19, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The OP didn't need to cast their line that far then if "fishing" is how you are describing it. Alan committed a blatant violation, and I question your motive to outright ignore it. For somehow who wanted to be an admin, this is not something you should be blind to.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:40, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I've asked on Alansohn's talk if he can justify that edit. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 04:23, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

He claims User_talk:Alansohn#Interaction_ban_with_user:Rusf10 there was no violation even though his conduct at Rusf10 AfDs is the primary reason for the IBAN and there was very specific discussion on the IBAN that this would prevent him from commenting on Risf10 AfDs. Evidently he has no intention of leaving Rusf10 AfDs alone. Either he needs a block to drive the point home or we need to clarify the IBAN scope to include all AfDs by Rusf10. Legacypac (talk) 06:56, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Obvious topic ban violation and gaming going on. Blocked 48 hours. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 09:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

• Good block- this was quite obviously an attempt to
  WP:GAME the interaction ban. Reyk _YO!
  09:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Hello. I have been doing NPP for a number of years - not with extensive frequency, since real life prevents me from being on Wikipedia on a daily basis. My NPP rights were removed by Kudpung after one of his friends complained about my removal of an inappropriate G11 tag that he placedUser talk:And Adoil Descended#Note. Kudpung is claiming there is a "use it or lose it" rule for NPP editors if editors fail to meet X-number of edits in a X-specific frame, but no such rule exists. In view that no such "use it or lose it" rule for NPP exists and that an NPP admin is on record stating the G11 tag was inappropriately placed, I would appreciate the restoration of my NPP rights. Thank you. And Adoil Descended (talk) 09:25, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

• ADDs archived their talkpage - For historical purposes Kudpungs note etc is at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:And_Adoil_Descended&diff=833765251&oldid=833761225#Note, –Davey2010^Talk 17:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
• Not sure that Kudpung erred. There may be more involved than at first glance.--Dlohcierekim (talk) 09:41, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Please provide a link to the Wikipedia rule that clearly and specifically states that NPP reviewers must perform X-number of edits in an X-specific time frame. That's a very simple request. And Adoil Descended (talk) 09:43, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

More concerned with your removal of a G11 tag on a clearly G11 article. In my opinion, your judgment may be lacking. Your misread of Tony's note-- the reference here since removed-- as well. --Dlohcierekim (talk) 09:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

<ec>And then there is your participation and arguments at the related AfD. As I said. There is more here that needs looking at before we restore that which you have lost.--Dlohcierekim (talk) 10:06, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

• @And Adoil Descended:^{Replying to this version, before AAD refactored their original message} I'm afraid that's irrelevant. Permissions, however advanced, are granted in order that they aid the encyclopaedia. If one does not use them, one does not need them; and when one makes edits that call one's competency to use them into question, one should expect them to be revoked. Your case, I'm afraid, is fundamentally undermined by the fact that, although you say that TB agreed with your removal of the G11 tag, in fact he said precisely the opposite: "I would have G11'd it," meaning, he would have deleted the page per the tag. Combined other behavioural factors—your accusing editors of being "friends" pejoratively, criticising their spelling and calling them immature, and that they're "out for revenge"—I think Kudpung was well within community norms in revoking your flag. I think you'll find a general consensus that if one is bringing those particular qualities to new page reviewing, then the encyclopaedia is probably better off you not doing so. IMHO, of course.—SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap shit room} 10:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Really, removing my flag after one allegedly wobbly edit after years of my doing NPP without issue? And, for the second time, please provide a link to the Wikipedia rule that clearly and specifically states that NPP reviewers must perform X-number of edits in an X-specific time frame. That's is not irrelevant. For a site that is burdened with policies and guidelines, clearly there has to be a specific rule on which editors are allowed to perform NPP duties and which cannot. If there is no such rule, then it is obvious this site is governed by capricious behavior. And Adoil Descended (talk) 10:52, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

No, not really; it's governed by people making

bold edits under implicit community oversight. That's the process we see in operation now: Kudpung was bold in removing your flag, and the community consensus will doubtles be that he was cortect in doing so. Happy editing! —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap shit room}

10:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Frankly, this is the first time I've heard about a "use it or loose it" criteria for anything other than admin tools, so I doubt very much so that there is a such a mandate. I see nothing mentioned at Wikipedia:User access levels suggesting any of the user rights on site have such a limitation, and unless someone can produce evidence that there is a time limit for editors to use additionally granted user rights before they can be unilaterally rescinded I'd say restore and then obtain community consensus for a removal. TomStar81 (Talk) 12:13, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

One other little thought on this brain train: Typically, those who complain the loudest about being or not being able to do something are the one doing the most harm, so even if there is no clear consensus for a use it or lose it position there may still be consensus for disarming and confiscating privileges if the community thinks it isn't worth the grief they have to put up with when dealing with someone who has the privileges. Food for thought. TomStar81 (Talk) 12:19, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

• Highly appropriate revocation.Mostly per Dloh and SN54129, who has highlighted the core of the issue, quite succinctly.~ Winged Blades^Godric 12:25, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
  • And, Adoil has not done a single review, after getting the flag, as brilliantly displayed at the concerned log.So, all in all, this's much ado about nothing.~ Winged Blades^Godric 12:30, 2 April 2018 (UTC)