Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 71

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Converted to a

request for comment by Fastily at 03:49, 1 June 2018‎ (UTC). — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT

) 05:36, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support - Contributors should not be allowed to revert changes based on consensus determined by a formally closed discussion because they disagree with it; the proper way to dispute such a close is through
  close review. That aside, if the {{promising draft}} template does not protect a draft from speedy deletion per G13, then it is pointless (i.e. merely symbolic). — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT
  ) 13:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• 20 days < 1 month. That RfC was poorly attended and just after G13 was implemented; many of the 7 !votes noted that they wanted G13 abolished. Neither the RfC query nor the closer specifically mentioned any changes to the wording of policy, and it seems poor form to reinterpret it as such several months after the closure. In the absence of clear consensus to the contrary I oppose the proposed blanket prohibition as unnecessary
  instruction creep affecting a tiny percentage of otherwise G13-elgible drafts. VQuakr (talk
  ) 03:18, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

  Speaking as the closer of that discussion, my intention was that a properly applied promising draft template should render a page permanently ineligible for G13. I fully endorse the addition of the line to the policy as necessary, and consistent with my close. Tazerdadog (talk) 05:12, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support If someone thinks a draft is promising, there should be a discussion. This is akin to
  WP:PROD for live articles. If a user is abusively applying the promising draft tag, that is a behavior issue that can be dealt with accordingly. Calliopejen1 (talk
  ) 04:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support as already clear from the last RfC. If someone has explicitly tagged a draft with {{promising draft}}, then deleting it just because it hasn't been edited in six months is definitely not uncontroversial and so is squarely outside the purview of speedy deletion. – Uanfala (talk) 06:45, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

  G13 is defined to be untcontraversial. Either it has or has not been edited in 6 months and therefore abandoned. Putting a sticky "prevent CSD:G13" is a huge policy grab and not a single one of these objectors ever comes back to do something with the draft. Hasteur (talk) 19:02, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

  As the discussion below indicates, deletion under G13 is anything but uncontroversial where another editor has indicated that the particular draft is promising. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:05, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose – The promising draft tag should not prevent G13; it should just be one of the ways an editor can postpone G13 for another 6 months. An actual ==contested deletion== argument can be pre-positioned on the draft's talk page and that is the sort of minimal effort we should expect to signify opposition to deletion and some characterization of the editor's willingness and expectation to carry through. I think it's a great idea for drafts that have been sitting idle to come up periodically for inspection - several people are now on the G13 notification list, so it should not just be a matter of one admin making the delete decision all on their lonesome. It's hard to argue that a draft nobody can be concerned enough to work on should be kept around. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
  • "Contested deletion" arguments on the talk page are what we require of people who want to challenge the speedy deletion of pages created by themselves. Creators of drafts are already excluded from using {{promising draft}} on their own drafts. – Uanfala (talk) 07:42, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support (yes). G13'd drafts can be
  refunded on request anyway. Objecting to deletion in advance just saves us a few clicks. If someone really thinks a draft is promising they should move it to mainspace, though. It hardly takes more effort than slapping a tag on it. – Joe (talk
  ) 08:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Joe Roe, see my comments below. I’m in agreement with you re: mainspace, but I’m afraid that this proposal will continue what I see as the negative idea that we should keep stuff in draft space until it is perfect. If an abandoned draft is promising and hasn’t been touched for a year (which will likely be the case for anything with this tag) it should be promoted. If it’s not actually promising, why are we keeping it? Either way, this doesn’t make sense. TonyBallioni (talk) 10:57, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
    • @TonyBallioni: Yes I absolutely agree with you there. My support isn't so much for using the tag, but for recognising that if we didn't have it, someone could just as easily put a note saying "if you delete this I will ask for it to be undeleted" on the top of the draft with the same effect. Whatever the outcome of this discussion, maybe we should add some guidelines to Template:Promising draft discouraging people from overusing it. – Joe (talk) 11:41, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
      • @Joe Roe:I would say it is a one-time reprieve and that it should be removed by the reviewing admin. A user can always restore it (which would, in effect, buy the draft another year of violating NOTWEBHOST), but I don't support keeping something around forever that has never been edited just because someone tags it. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:31, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support the justification for having G13 is that we don't want to have pages with no prospect of becoming articles sitting around here indefinitely. If a third party thinks a draft is promising then that is much less likely to apply. This doesn't mean such drafts can't be deleted, just that they aren't the obvious cases speedy deletion is meant to deal with. They can still be deleted at MfD. Hut 8.5 09:21, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support Seems like the whole point? Someone can always remove it if they disagree, not like it's binding from ARBCOM... ~ Amory (u • t • c) 10:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose putting the tag on delays it for 6 months. No need to keep these indefinitely. Mainspace then or delete them. We’re here to build an encyclopedia, not a collection of notes. TonyBallioni (talk) 10:49, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose (perennial) in favour of deprecating G13. On the merits I agree with Joe Roe: if a draft is "promising", promote it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 10:50, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Ivanvector: Unfortunately, I do not think deprecation is likely. That aside, I know you perennially oppose changes to G13, however, I would argue that supporting this is merely maintaining the status quo. Contributors who did not like the consensus established here (which you supported) have resisted the implementation of it. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 13:18, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

    On reflection I prefer promotion to tagging with a template which effectively says "this could be promoted but the tagger couldn't be bothered". I suppose we can think about it this way: speedy deletion is for universally uncontroversial deletions, and if a page is tagged with a "do not delete this" template then it can be presumed that deletion is controversial. Therefore CSD is out, but MFD remains available. To that end, I see no reason to oppose the change - it's not a "drafts can never be deleted" change, it's just a review marker really. Also, I'm aware deprecation is unlikely, but so are a lot of good things that I'm going to continue vocally supporting anyway. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:59, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support per my reply earlier in the discussion. Tazerdadog (talk) 11:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is just an open invitation to game the system. If people think a draft is promising they could just improve it. G13 is no edits. Literally all they need to do to prevent G13, is improve the article. Including this would permit people who dispute the existence of G13 to completely neuter it just by bulk tagging, and there is no conceivable benefit to offset that: if you think it's promising, improve it and promote it. Draft space is not an indefinite holding ground for articles that are not up to standard. Guy (Help!) 12:16, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

• There are plenty of articles where I can recognise notability, but lack expertise to improve sourcing (eg language skills, specialist literature access). If people bulk tag clearly unpromising drafts then that can be dealt with as a behavioural issue. Espresso Addict (talk) 15:29, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support as second option to deprecating G13, per my perennial opposition to it and my comments beside my struck vote a few lines above. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:59, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Some way of moving draftspace towards the communal development space I thought it was meant to be would be positive. When I process batches of G13s there are usually 5–10% that appear potentially salvageable, but not suitable for mainspace as is; however, I rarely have time or expertise to work on them. Next stop, indexing the promising drafts so that other editors can find them... Espresso Addict (talk) 21:34, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support - Seems sensible. Also don't see a good reason why the previous discussion shouldn't stand. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:41, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose Again we have the same actors touting the same shaky arguments. This template is merely a request to not delete it via G13. It is not policy. A policy would have stemmed from a Village Pump discussion. I note that every single time we have this debate people claim that they will work on the drafts if they template is respected. The template is willfully being abused as a permanant immunization against G13. Not a single editor who places the template actually does anything about fixing it. The template appears to not summon any users to fix the page. If the users are going to force these pages to be put through the burecracy of a MFD, I will be pinging every last one of them to come defend the page at MFD to make them put their money where their mouth is. Hasteur (talk) 01:13, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• I have barely made the first attempt to publicise the category, at WT:AfC. The point of the template is “I think this draft is not the normal cruft and should not be auto-deleted, but I personally don’t intend to work on it”. This fits the principal of no time limits, and does not clash with the original motivation for G13. Pinging the tagger when mfding is a very good idea, I even think it should be mandatory. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:23, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Tagging something as a 'promising draft' does not a draft can ever properly be made an article only that it looks like it might i.e. it is promising. After a minimum of a year with no edits and no one willing to 'bump' it again it is reasonable to assume the draft did not live up to its initial promise.
  Should draft space ever be indexed or otherwise made more user friendly having thousands upon thousands of these un-deletable yet untouched drafts hanging about will make it all but impossible to winnow useful material from all of the crap. Making a class of articles automatically immune from G13 will result in the same clutter as not having G13 at all, just with a slower fill rate. Jbh ^Talk 01:24, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Not undeletable, just not speediable. As others have said it would be equivalent to a declined prod. The current category (which I only realised existed today) has only 109 entries, so it's hardly a flood. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:27, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

It only has 109 entries because I've been sorting through them and either de-templatizing them (because they are patently wrong), submitting them for MFD, asking the author if they want to do something about the page, or submitting them for an impartial review to determine if they're ready for mainspace. The template and category are serving a purpose, just not the one you expect. Also I seriously question your competence if you don't know and understand what a first level template does before using it. Hasteur (talk) 02:41, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I've never placed it, just come across it patrolling G13s. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:46, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose this has been discussed before and this template should NOT create a class of permanent untouchable drafts. The main users of template have a history of driveby tagging without either accurately determining how useful the page is or doing any work on it. I've seen the tag used on pages the tagger should have immeditely mainspaced themselves, on pages that are already in mainspace (so no need for the draft) and on absolute crap with no promise that should be deleted. There is no consistency at all. It's fine as a flag to suggest a second look and a device to postpone deletion by six months but awful as rule that must be followed because one user with no special expertise or permissions thinks the page promising. Like User:Hasteur I patrol pages with the template to resolve the reason for the tag and either et the page into mainspace or deleted. You can help empty the list of pages with the template too [8] Legacypac (talk) 04:32, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
  • If you disagree what's to stop you from removing the tag? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amorymeltzer (talk • contribs) 13:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support, with the rather obvious caveat that tags added by the draft creator should be ignored for this purpose. Zero^talk 13:57, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• Noting here that I've protected the page as that sentence was leading to edit warring. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:02, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support the existence of the template, and the policy that if someone objects in advance it should not be subject to deletion based merely on a date. It can still be deleted if there is a proper reason to do so (although there are not many valid reasons to delelte a promising draft). I missed the previous discussion, but would have been in favor of the creation of this template, and of it serving to exempt a draft from G13. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 17:00, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• No G13 protection: We can trust the deleting admins to read any promising draft tags and hold off on deletion if the draft truly is promising. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:16, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Would you trust the deleting admin to do the same with respect to
    prodded articles, and hence prevent anyone else from de-prodding them? But even that rests on the assumption that the admin will actually look at the draft before they delete it. I don't know how things stand at the moment, but when I was dabbling in drafts a few months ago, almost all G13 tagging was done by a bot, and the majority of the subsequent deletions were performed by admins who did not seem to ever look at what they were deleting. – Uanfala (talk)
    18:14, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Are you suggesting that we have admins going around deleting anything with a tag? Declining CSD tags happens all the time. We allow people to be administrators in part because of their knowledge of policy and apparent common sense. If this weren't the case, we might as well create a CSD bot to go around deleting any article with a tag. Natureium (talk) 23:08, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Here are a few examples of drafts admins deleted despite multiple prior G13 postponements (the old equivalent of promising draft):
    Draft:William Healy. I'm sure I could find more examples (I found these in about 10 minutes of looking), but all of these are reasonable first drafts of seemingly notable subjects. And though deletion was repeatedly delayed by user(s) who thought they were worthwhile, eventually a 6-month period rolled around when someone forgot to postpone... And the drafts were deleted. Calliopejen1 (talk
    ) 08:39, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Speedy deletion is per definition for uncontroversial deletions. If someone places this tag, the deletion is no longer uncontroversial and thus outside of the scope of speedy deletion. People actually using this tag to try and game the system can and should be dealt with like all such attempts. But the possibility of abuse (that always exists) does not mean that good faith taggings should be ignored. Regards SoWhyMobile 17:24, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support because we should be respectful of well-intentioned editing in draft space. However, against that there is the problem that if a {{promising draft}} goes to MFD, such as Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:History of Thailand since 2001, it may lead to an embarrassment that is neatly avoided with speedy deletion. Thincat (talk) 17:59, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• Can the proponents of this exemption point me at any articles at all that, after being tagged promising but before a move to mainspace, were improved by someone who hadn't already been working on it? —
  Cryptic
  21:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure, but if the answer is none, that would be an argument for more aggressive moves to mainspace (where articles get improved), rather than an argument in favor of deletion of drafts. (Except perhaps for medical articles, BLPs, other cases where underdeveloped articles could do real harm.) Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
    • This is part of my concern - there's no legitimate method to challenge a promising-draft tag. The tag is aggressively purported by its users to be unremovable; there's
      Cryptic
      22:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
      • I agree there needs to be a method to challenge it. Maybe MfD policies need to be changed (or else these drafts go through AfD, which might actually be the most appropriate outcome). Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
      • I'm not well acquainted with
        WP:NMFD ignored in practice? If yes, is this a bad thing? If we care about due process, I think we'd all prefer to see the notability of drafts evaluated at any discussion venue (even one not "authorised" to deal with notability) rather than have it handled by the automatic machinery of G13. – Uanfala (talk)
        23:12, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
        • My anecdotal and very intermittent experience with MFD is that lack of notability is an aggravating factor, but some other, non-notability-based reason for deletion is put forward too. Or at least, that's always been the case with pages that end up on my watchlist for whatever reason and then find their way to MFD. —
          Cryptic
          23:29, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
        • The other draft deletion RfC is clarifying what NMFD means: if someone repeatedly resubmits a draft without substantial changes and there is no chance of it going to mainspace, then it can be deleted (this is the current practice, and that RfC has another week to go, but in all liklihood, NMFD will be updated to read that way in 7 days time). TonyBallioni (talk) 17:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose This is a template that is added without review as the opinion of one editor. This should not be used as a method to create untouchable drafts. The only point I see for using this tag is to express your own opinion to whoever is looking at it to reconsider before G13'ing. Natureium (talk) 23:05, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose The whole mess seems to be
  process just for its own sake. If a passing editor sees a draft they truly think is "promising", they can just, you know, edit it themselves (radical notion, I know). The only function this has is to allow an editor to say: "I like the idea of some-one else working on this article but I can't be bothered myself." That's not merely useless but worse than useless to building the project. The entire idea should be scrapped and any nitpicking about who can and can't apply templates or remove them or what have you is just navel-gazing. Nuke the template from orbit -- it's the only way to be sure. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib)
  23:49, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - If a draft isn't promising, and someone tags it that way, then giving it 6 months to be brought up to main-space standards is ample time. Even if it is promising, 6 months is still ample time, and if it's deleted as G13, so be it -- it can always be restored uncontroversially. I really don't see the point of this tag, other than for someone to express an opinion about a draft. Furthermore, a "promising draft" tag should be as easily removable as a prod tag or a speedy deletion tag. It's just someone's opinion. There should not exist a tag for permanent protection from G13. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

  Removing a promising draft tag is not the same is removing a prod tag. Removing a prod tag forces a deletion discussion; removing a promising draft tag circumvents a requested deletion discussion. It therefore makes sense that one tag is "sticky" and the other is not. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:59, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support I'm going to try to
  π, ν
  ) 00:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

  At very least, removal should require (1) a valid reason to the posted to the draft (and not just "unreferenced", because if the topic is notable, then references will exist); and (2) notification at the template placer's talk page so that they can contest. Espresso Addict (talk) 06:37, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I presume you would also demand the same of anyone adding the tag, since anything else would be arbitrary and inconsistent. I certainly would be much happier if addition had to be justified, just like every other tag. Guy (Help!) 07:43, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I too would be much happier if the addition had to be justified. I think the following two statements should be required: (1) why the topic is suitable for inclusion; and (2) why the page cannot be moved to mainspace in its current state. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, that's fair, and should help other editors to move the draft forwards. Espresso Addict (talk) 14:50, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose And frankly this template should be removed as an obvious attempt to game/get around G13. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:14, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I think that is an absurd position to take, it is like you see preserving a draft as akin to block evasion. Wikipedians have always been able to preserve things, including old drafts. The question is method. Can they apply this template and leave it in draftspace, or will they have to userfy it, or move it into a WikiProject? Maybe WP:WikiProject Promising Drafts is a good idea. Moving promising drafts there will avoid issues with HasteurBot. It will move them out of scope of G13, will you call that WP:Gaming? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
    • I like the idea of WikiProject Promising Drafts! Espresso Addict (talk) 14:42, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
      • There is already Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts, which could be reinvigorated. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:34, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
        • NO! Very different. One is for the hopeless time wasting, the other is filtered for the worth looking at. SmokeyJoe (talk) 20:58, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. As other editors have said above, this template is basically a way of saying "I don't want to work on this but somebody else ought to." It inherently passes the buck. As a result, it should be only a temporary reprieve - if no one is willing to improve and promote to mainspace after another 6 months after the template is applied, is it really all that promising? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 13:46, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @
    005 (video game) for example; I tagged it as a promising draft then took measures to improve it then eventually promoted it to the mainspace. That aside, and more to the point, active and deceased users can retain userspace drafts forever. The main difference between draftspace and userspace is that draftspace makes the draft more likely to receive collaboration; why should we discourage drafts from residing in a more open place? — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT
    ) 15:45, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Honestly, I respect your willingness to work on someone else's abandoned content, but you didn't need the Promising Draft template for that. Your continuing edits would have been enough to spare the page from G13, which only proves my point. Slapping the template on it and walking away without improving it is an attempt to pass the buck. Actually working on a so-called "promising draft" resets the G13 counter on its own and is a much better way to make sure the content gets preserved and promoted to mainspace eventually, if it is good. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:23, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Otherwise, might as well have
  ^^^
  19:47, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. If a draft is "promising", then it should be either a) promoted, or b) userified. The draft namespace was never intended as a storage space to indefinitely store miscellaneous writings. -FASTILY 20:33, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - if an editor feels that a stale draft is promising enough to postpone its deletion, they should either work on it and promote it to mainspace, or userfy it to work on later if they really want to. The process as it stands with the language above as part of G13 would IMO lead to a lot of
  drive-by tagging and a massive clean-up backlog. ƒirefly ( t · c · who?
  ) 20:58, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support Getting rid of drafts purely for reasons of elapsed time is contrary to
  WP:DEADLINE. The template in question is a reasonable way of mitigating this. Andrew D. (talk
  ) 22:14, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: The template should either be deprecated, or the one applying it should commit to completing the article, otherwise as Firefly states, it would simply lead to drive-by tagging.⋅ AFAIK admins check G13s before they delete, if they are, not far more than enough, to ascertain if the original creator has any intention of working on the article. There is a popular misconception across Wikipedia that we have a permanent editorial team that exists solely for the purpose of completing and rescuing any junk that is dumped on us. Just because an article might meet basic criteria absolutely does not mean that it is suitable for an encyclopedia and that our database of knowledge would be enriched by it. At 5.6mio articles, the time has passed when we need to scavenge the trash cans for content. WP:WikiProject Promising Drafts may sounds like a good idea SmokeyJoe, and I rarely disagree with your opinions, but this would simply revive under another name the Incubator that we successfully deprecated. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - As per
  Someone else's problem. Make it your own problem or let the calendar run on it. Robert McClenon (talk
  ) 01:55, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Robert McClenon: Ivanvector changed from oppose to support above quite some time before your !vote. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 03:22, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

    Never mind. There's no requirement for arguments to be rational (and few are). Thincat (talk) 08:26, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

    My "support" should be read more as a "principled neutral" in the context of my continued opposition to the use of G13 at all. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - Noted. I still oppose. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:32, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• I like the idea of honouring a request not to delete with that promising draft. But I can see that these too will become stale. Also the problem of the tag being put on what is really unpromising stuff without the capability to remove it means I actually will Oppose this proposal. Deleting admins can read the request and just detag a g13 if they really believe it is promising. However From a few recent undeletes I have done I can tell that this won't always happen. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 02:14, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Graeme Bartlett: If this proposal passes, a discussion can be (and should be) started about when and how the template may be removed; that aspect is not set in stone. Poor placements and overzealous removals are both problems at the moment. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 03:19, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Comment - I disagree as to the timing, which is one reason that I oppose. If this proposal passes, there will in all likelihood be no consensus that it can be removed, and the template and the non-removal will therefore be set in stone. I may support a more reasoned version of this proposal that already specifies how the template can be used and removed. As it is, no, because there will be no subsequent consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Query. Everything in draftspace essentially is subject to a slow-motion prod process. Instead of seven days after which it will be deleted automatically, it is six months. When a user removes a prod tag, this action forces a community discussion about the appropriateness of keeping an article. When a user adds a promising draft tag, it does the same thing. (We could imagine the draft deletion process being set up a different way -- suppose there was an autodeletion countdown tag that a user could remove, instead of adding a promising draft tag.) I'm genuinely curious about why there seems to be a consensus for allowing a user to unilaterally force a deletion discussion in mainspace (via prod removal), but not in draftspace (via promising-draft addition). Thoughts? Calliopejen1 (talk) 05:47, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

  When a user

  removes a PROD tag, this action forces nothing, except in a negative way: it prohibits a subsequent PROD. A follow-up discussion (AFD or otherwise) is not mandatory. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk

  ) 12:24, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose If an article is not good enough for mainspace, it should be deleted, and not permanently put in draftspace. -- » Shadowowl | talk 09:42, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - per TonyBallioni and Guy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:52, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The only thing this tag should do is let the deleted admin (or whoever places the G13 tag) know that someone may object to its deletion. Draftspace is designed to be a temporary working space, not an alternate Wikipedia where notability rules don't apply. Bradv 12:41, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - There's already enough ways to hang on to drafts that have promise. (Editing the draft to reset the clock, asking for refund, etc). The current proposal encourages saving drafts without adding any incentive to actually improve them. If anything, it removes any sense of urgency, and has the potential to be abused. Sergecross73 msg me 12:46, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose This template is just incentive for indefinite hosting of non-notable and non-encyclopedic stuff under the guise of vague labeling "promising". Instead of random-tagging multiple drafts, the tagger would do Wikipedia much more beneficial service if they improve single "promising" draft into mainspace-worthy stub and move it to mainspace also. –Ammarpad (talk) 14:15, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Speedy deletion is for uncontroversial cases. If an uninvolved editor thinks something shouldn't be deleted, it warrants a deletion discussion (except in cases with legal implications like G10 and G12). {{Promising draft}} is just an expedited, easily visible way to implement this fundamental consensus about speedy deletion in the particular case of stale drafts. As others have noted, abuse of the template should be treated as a behavioral issue, not some problem with the template itself, which is firmly grounded in general speedy deletion policy and a previous RfC on this issue (as noted by Tazerdadog near the beginning of the discussion). All that said, I can see which way the wind is blowing on this, and would like to plug my essay on the subject as a solution that may satisfy the needs of both "draft deletionists" and "draft inclusionists". A2soup (talk) 17:53, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. I would rather have editors simply remove {{
  is not a web host or a place to indefinitely store articles that aren't ready for mainspace, which means that we expect drafts to be actively worked on so that they will eventually be a part of the encyclopedia in the future. This is the core reasoning behind G13 speedy deletion. Mz7 (talk
  ) 18:28, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't have statistics on it, but I am sure the the average time between {{db-g13}} application and deletion does not allow this to be a viable solution. A2soup (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

User:A2soup You are looking for Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions (over 4000 pages generally, listed for 30 days I believe) and Wikipedia:Database reports/Stale drafts with another 1000 page backlog that can be nominated G13 right now. Enjoy. Legacypac (talk) 18:56, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Well, it would be the same interval of time you would have to apply a {{promising draft}} tag to a draft tagged with {{db-g13}}. If you are talking about preempting the {{db-g13}} tag in the first place, I think that solution is problematic for the reasons that Premeditated Chaos cited above. A better way to preempt the tag would be to actually edit the draft, do something that actively improves it. Mz7 (talk) 18:59, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, given that we apparently cannot remove promising draft templates. That's practically begging for abuse. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 21:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• I'm opposed to the use of this template as stated. [I'm sleepy, so I'm having a little trouble figuring out what simple "support" and "oppose" mean.] Drafts aren't supposed to be long-term; either they should be moved to mainspace, or they should be deleted after a while. One or two G13 postponements or restorations are fine, but if you keep postponing or requesting undeletion, you get to the point that your postponement should be ignored and your request may be ignored. Why should we have a template that must remain on the draft as long as it's a draft? The only templates that should stay on the draft long-term are ones directly related to the AFC process, ones such as {{
  AFC submission}}, and that's only because the process wouldn't work as well without them. They don't impair what can be done with the drafts on which they're placed, and that's the big problem with this template. Nyttend (talk
  ) 21:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, although I have no problem with using the template to fulfill the "any edit" requirement to extend deletion for six months. However, if no one rescues it out of the Category:Promising draft articles category in six months, it's likely to just languish there forever, so making it G13-invincible makes no sense. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 20:44, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose: I agree with Legacypac and Hasteur here in that content should not be stored indefinitely in draft-space. I also agree with the fact that the template is "being abused as a permanant immunization against G13. Not a single editor who places the template actually does anything about fixing it", certainly where I've seen it is just as a permanent buffer against G13, which shouldn't be happening and undermines the whole point of G13 in the first place. jcc (tea and biscuits) 21:00, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support; there is a dual purpose to AfC--one is to prevent promotional articles and those that for other reasons will never be able to show notability from getting into mainspace, but the other is to help those that fdo have promise to be improved so they can get--and stay--in mainspace. Obviously this will always be a matter of judgment, and considering the way AfD works will never be more than a rough approximation to the erratic conclusions of an ill-defined process. It's a preliminary screen, and cannot expected to be more. Altogether too many article drafts are lost because nobody is immediately able to work on them. It it takes a year to improve a potential article, its good that it eventually gets improved. If it take 2 or 3 years, no harm is done either. Removing such a draft costs us a contributor. On the other hand, if a promotional article should by accident pass afc , it will nowadays very soon be remove by NPP. No admin should ever be deleting G13s without reconsidering them by themselves, just as they should not be blindingly accepting the nomination at Prod or CSD, no matter how responsible the person who nominated. DGG ( talk ) 08:00, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose as any drafts that have promise that get deleted by G13 are
  WP:REFUNDable by anyone who wants to work on it. If nobody cares enough to edit a draft and save it from G13, or to REFUND a G13 deleted draft, then quite frankly, there's no reason to keep it around in draftspace. Iffy★Chat
  -- 10:26, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, it is difficult enough to deal with stale, abandoned, or unviable drafts without putting more roadblocks in the way. Stifle (talk) 12:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The line should not have been removed out of process, and in violation of the standing consesnsus. The correct action would have been to bring the matter up here before reverting the change. That being said, I don't agree with the original action, so I'm opposing. I agree with others that this must not be used to further slow down the procedure. If the draft really is promising, it should be edited or moved to mainspace. This would serve only to encourage more drive-by-tagging. Tamwin (talk) 20:21, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - {{promising draft}} should be enough to delay deletion for a further 6 months - not to forestall it forever. Cabayi (talk) 13:56, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose If someone can be bothered to put on a template, then they could make some improvements instead. Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 17:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per TonyBallioni and Guy.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 11:01, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support. If someone marks the page as promising draft, deletion is not uncontroversial. It is beside the point whether or not the tagger intends to improve the page. Drafts on potentially notable subjects should not be deleted. SpinningSpark 15:53, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose This proceeds from the false belief that Wikipedia needs more articles by any means necessary. If you don't want your draft deleted, keep it in user space. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. The deleting admins should be accorded the same confidence for checking G13s before deletion as they are for evaluating CSDs or expired PRODs. The
  WP:BEFORE just as they would(should) before taggiing for deletion. To fully understand the balance of the content and quality of new articles, commenters may wish to to spend some time examining the special:NewpagesFeed and the AfC lists. Our capacity is well beyond the point where the editors who work their way through certain tag categories will ever be able to address them all. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk
  ) 01:48, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Speedy deletion is only for uncontroversial deletion - i.e. pages that nobody would have a good faith objection to deleting. If a page has been tagged as a promising draft then this cannot be the case, and so it needs discussion before deletion. See also
  WP:DEADLINE. Thryduulf (talk
  ) 09:08, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
• weak support I don't agree with the idea really (seems trivial to abuse with a meat puppet) but there was an RfC in a reasonable place (here) and the outcome wasn't insane. Just ignoring it wasn't the right way forward. As to the underlying issue, I'd support a 6 month delay on a G13. As far as arguments that "well WP:REFUND exists" that assumes a lot more understanding of our processes than most editors have. Hobit (talk) 11:07, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @
    AFC postpone G13}} gave the draft 6 more months of runway to move to a more complete state. This entire campaign is some editors who have next to no experience with actually working on these trying to neuter G13 into irrelevance by creating a class of permanently g13 immune drafts. Hasteur (talk
    ) 13:01, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
    • I understand and even agree with you about how things should work. But once that RfC was closed the way it was, your bot shouldn't have deleted the drafts. Of course missing the RfC is perfectly reasonable, but once it was pointed out, you needed to either A) start a new (and hopefully better-attended RfC) or B) modify the bot. Hobit (talk) 02:45, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
      • Hobit just to your points 1) the bot is not an admin bot. It did not delete anything, only an admin could, and simply the process off adding the tag delayed the bot for 6 months. 2) this is the new better-attended RfC so supporting something you don’t believe in based on the past RfC makes no sense. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:09, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
        • I did misunderstand how this played out. If I have it right now, the RfC happened, the policy was updated and then later contested via what looks like a mild edit war. This RfC was born of that, raised by someone who wanted the RfC outcome enforced. After the RfC the bot was still tagging articles for speedy deletion. Do I have that right? If so, my objection still stands. If you don't like the way an RfC was closed, you don't just change things and then revert others when they revert your changes. You bring up a discussion. To do otherwise is disruptive. So it's a case of "I agree with what you want to do, but have done it in a way I can't agree with". If I'm still misunderstanding the situation (and I might well be) let me know. But I do view edit warring to overturn an RfC outcome to be disruptive and it looks like that is what happened here. Hobit (talk) 04:10, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, there are enough avenues available to prevent G13 deletion (edit the page, for example) and most truly "promising" drafts should be in mainspace anyway. —Kusma (t·c) 12:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - If a draft is promising, it should generally be moved into mainspace as soon as possible unless there was a good reason not to do so (i.e. WP:TOOSOON concerns). The "promising draft" tag shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail card for drafts that don't have a chance anyway, and there's always editing the draft if you want to avoid G13.
  csdnew
  01:25, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Support In case if someone thinks a draft has potential and places the template, the deletion does not remain uncontroversial. CSD is not the place for uncontroversial deletions, MFD is. Anyone can then take the draft to MFD if they don't agree with the user who placed the draft. Pratyush (talk) 10:27, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. We already have procedure for contesting speedy criteria in general as well as dealing with stale drafts in particular. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:52, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Appearently the Promising Draft template is permanent and can't be removed

According to this user anyone can place "Promising Draft" but no one can remove a poorly placed tag. I believe that is not correct. [9] Combine that with the silly notion written at

I find the above comment to be "promising"... :)  --Guy Macon (talk) 17:11, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Technically there are two authorized ways to remove it. The first is deleting the article at

π, ν

) 17:33, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

So basically the entire idea is to eliminate G13 and allow any editor who so chooses to irrevocably prevent stale drafts from being deleted other than through MfD. IO kind of thought as much. Guy (Help!) 19:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The motivation of G13 was to do something with the tens of thousands of unsorted mostly worthless cruft and spam drafts. Manually templated (sorted) promising drafts are decidedly not what was intended to be auto-deleted. The motivation for template:Promising draft is to enable positive sorting of the draft pile. Previously, all that was done was disposal via speedy deletion of the worst end of the draft pile. With no positive-end sorting, it was no wonder that no normal content improving editor would play in the draft pile. This template makes it more tempting to play in the draft pile, because you can go straight to the drafts with at least some substance. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:16, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Are there any templates that an editor can throw up there and no one is allowed to remove? This seems very strange to me. Why would this opinion tag be permanent? Natureium (talk) 22:59, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The Template:Promising draft has been thru many versions but it currently reads:

"An editor has indicated that this is a promising draft and requests that, should the draft become abandoned, it not be speedily deleted as WP:G13. This draft can still be nominated for deletion at WP:MfD."

Appearently it needs to read:

"An editor who probably can't be bothered to do anything with this draft themselves demands that it not be speedily deleted as WP:G13. Further the page can not be deleted on the

I support honesty in our templates. Legacypac (talk) 00:19, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

• I support honesty in template messages. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

A core wiki principal is to make it easy to edit in something and easy to edit out something. The rules around this template fly in the face of that. Anyone can thoughtlessly add the template and no one can - even after serious consideration - remove it or the page it is on. That is not the Wiki Way. Legacypac (talk) 13:57, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

How about this: there are templates {{in use}} and {{under construction}} which place pages in Category:Pages actively undergoing a major edit and Category:Pages actively undergoing construction respectively. There are bots which patrol these categories and remove the template from pages so categorised if a certain period of time has elapsed without any edits taking place. We could ask the operators of those bots to similarly patrol Category:Promising draft articles and remove {{promising draft}} if there have been no edits within, say, the previous thirty days. Removal by bot would make the page eligible for G13 at a later date, and this would mean that G13 is not indefinitely deferred. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:10, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

You can already reset the timer for G13 by making any edit, so I don't know that this would add anything. Am I missing something? The point of promising draft (from its proponents' perspective) was exactly that it would forestall speedy deletion indefinitely (meaning an MFD would be required), so this doesn't accomplish that goal. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Inappropriate removals of promising draft

Hasteur has removed the {{promising draft}} from several drafts including from Draft:Naphthalene-1,5-dione. Per Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 66#Template for promising drafts: "Editors should not remove this tag unless they placed it themselves or the page creator placed it." Even if Hasteur wants to continue to ignore community consensus, the tag should be allowed to remain if someone restores it after his removals (because that implies others than the tagger think it should be there). That aside: If this discussion affirms the promising draft tag, a discussion can be started about when and how the template should be removed; if not, the matter is moot as the template is pointless. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 17:00, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Please oh great font of wisdom: How is a procedurally generated page for where there is no prose, no content, no references how is that PROMISING. If anything YOUR drive by tagging of the draft and unexplained restorals are disruptive and out of order, so kindly desist. Hasteur (talk) 17:05, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Hasteur: My restorations are supported by community consensus while your removals are based solely on your opinion. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 17:06, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Drive by templating is never authorized. Procedural generation of directory listing, without any idea of if this compound is notable, without any prose. These are things that Wikipedia has expressed on multiple times that is not desirable or authorized. Hasteur (talk) 17:09, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

You are simply incorrect (

edit war as you are. It is unfortunate that those willing to do that so often get their way (at least in the short term). — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT

) 17:14, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Godsy, there is an old saying; "if you want to convince people that there are too many people being held in prison for minor offenses, don't pick Charles Manson as your example." The draft that you are fighting to keep the tag on is one of the least promising drafts on Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:22, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Godsy is correct in that the RFC closed saying that the template could not be removed. However let's say that this is an

WP:BRD should apply. Graeme Bartlett (talk

) 23:28, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@Graeme Bartlett: I take who tagged the draft into account. Winged Blades of Godric is active, has been around since 2013, and has accumulated over 20,000 edits. Whatever they saw in the draft, why should Hasteur unilaterally overrule that? If we were talking about an inexperienced editor, I would feel differently. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 23:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

That was a mistaken tagging and I apologize.But, I'm genuinely at a loss to understand the edit-warring by Hasteur.AFAIS, I've a t/p that is accessible, quite like MFD is......~ Winged Blades^Godric 05:05, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Let's take this as an example of an inappropriate removal: [10] (on Nils Forsberg). The problem is that there are so-many delete-happy editors and admins that there needs to be a way to force a discussion about drafts that other editors think are worthwhile (even if not yet ready for mainspace). If you put on the promising draft tag, it's liable to be removed. And here is a list of worthwhile drafts that were actually deleted as G13 (there are many, many more). Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_65#Sample_of_some_worthwhile_articles_that_have_been_deleted_under_G13. Without safety mechanisms, worthy content keeps getting deleted. Calliopejen1 (talk) 01:32, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I've taken to patrolling G13 when I have the time/mental energy. I have several times had the entire 50-article set deleted by another admin in the time it took me to type a single article title into Google and eyeball the results. I might be wrong but I suspect some admins consider the job to be a bot-like process, where all that needs to be ascertained is whether the draft has indeed lain fallow for the requisite 6 months. There has to be a better way of dealing with this issue. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:41, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Looking through the deletion log for the past couple days, the typical deletion rate is 3-4 per minute, with rates as high as 8 per minute observed. I find it implausible that admins are doing more than a quick skim of the article, and a check of the history to ensure 6 months unedited when deleting faster than 3/minute. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:03, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

If a trusted user or the bot did the nom as part of a batch off the G13 list, you know it is G13 eligible. You don't need to drag out a calender. It does not take very long to see 2 or 11 AfC rejections which tells you the page has been reviewed by trusted reviewers and rejected. If not through AFC many are easily assessed as spam or other crap. I know this because I've nominated thousands of G13. Legacypac (talk) 03:38, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@Legacypac:--Whilst, you mght be the person on this project with the longest CSD log and whilst the actions by Calliopejen1 to directly mainspace the draft were sub-optimal, that doesn't excuse your's out-of-process de-taggings.And, since you've brought this issue at some other thread, I'm afraid that in case of continued misuse, as much as an user can be banned from accesing the AFCHS script, people can be T-banned from the CSD arena, with equal pleasure.

And, don't remove any validly placed promising-draft template, unless the close of the previous RFC is overturned.You ought to know where MFD or the t/p of the template-tagger lies......~ Winged Blades^Godric 05:29, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

User:Winged Blades of Godric It's not like that. Notwithstanding the RFC closer comments (which over reached the discussion and were more a suggestion than a prescription) subsequently there have been several discussions where groups of editors clarified how we treat the promising draft tag. The consensus has been that we try to respect it but that the overall quality of tagging was suboptimal and that any editor could remove or ignore/G13 a page they felt was not actually promising. I actually ran a batch of the less promising ones through MfD 6 months after 100 or so pages were tagged initially and nearly all were deleted. The tagger never showed up to even defend the pages which then factored into the discussions on how seriously we took the tag. The tag itself has always been worded as a "request" and requests are not requirements. I've been acting on this consensus. Legacypac (talk) 15:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Legacypac that extremely fast deletion rates are reasonable. Most drafts are utter garbage. My concern is that drafts that are not the usual garbage are deleted with the same gusto. Calliopejen1 (talk) 06:47, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

By the way, when I go through drafts that are up for deletion to apply the {{promising draft}} tag as I think is appropriate, I normally tag about 1-2% of drafts. The rest can be thrown away and no one will miss them. (There may be some notable topics in the remaining 98% but for those we're talking one-sentence or few-sentence articles which lack sources and for which recreation would be trivial.) Calliopejen1 (talk) 06:52, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

You appear to have missed the point of draft space. It's for drafts being worked up into articles, It's not an indefinite holding ground for things people can't be arsed to make into articles. The obvious answer with teh Forstenberg article was to promote it. I started looking at User:Calliopejen1/Postponed AFC. There is a fuckton of spam in there. Guy (Help!) 07:50, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

There is some garbage there, but plenty of reasonable starts on notable topics. Just a couple examples I found right now:

Draft:William Healy (with this linked biographical journal article, describing him as " a pioneer psychiatrist and criminologist"). Calliopejen1 (talk

) 08:21, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Healy's clearly notable; I'll try to work that one up. Some of the early declines (that one was submitted in 2012!) seem to have been a bit scattergun. Espresso Addict (talk) 15:23, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't dispute that, but waving that list in front of people as evidence of a problem, as some have done, is tendentious when it contains, as it dfoes, obvious spam. But I think this is mostly a philosophical disagreement about draft space. We all agree it's there to allow people to work up articles, but in the end if someone's not working on it and can't be bothered to get it into mainspace then we are into

WP:WEBHOST territory. I think it would be much better to subscribe tot he upcoming G13 bot notifications, review them and edit or promote the minority that are worth having. In the end, if the article's not in mainspace it's not part of the reason we are here, so mainspace or the bitbucket is not an invalid view I think. Guy (Help!

) 07:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Also, if draft space is only for things actively "being worked up into articles" then we should be forbidding bold moves from article space to draft space (those moves would be inconsistent with the purpose of draft space unless the mover plans to work on the article there or has reason to believe someone else plans to do so). Calliopejen1 (talk) 08:28, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I think the rules for draftifying, as documented at Wikipedia:Drafts#Moving_articles_to_draft_space, I think are pretty good, clear, and widely agreeable. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:42, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

There are a number of articles coming up for G13 deletion that were moved to draft space under different circumstances. (e.g. unsourced and author didn't respond to query about sourcing --

Draft:San Antonio Island (Spain) and others) Is the correct course to move them back to namespace? Calliopejen1 (talk

) 08:46, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

ec. Only if the draftification was inappropriate. I am yet to see a seriously inappropriate draftification. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:49, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I almost decided it was a hoax, before finding an appropriate redirect target. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:01, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

The Catalan article is better developed, with a good government source. It's not immediately self-evident that the island doesn't qualify for an article. Calliopejen1 (talk) 09:06, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Calliopejen1 collapsed with "hatting some discussion that strayed from the topic... (my fault) Calliopejen1 (talk) 09:16, 3 June 2018 (UTC)". I object to this hatting of my input as if it should never have been discussed. Reference to Wikipedia:Drafts#Moving_articles_to_draft_space, in particular, needs more attention, not hiding. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Now look what you've done. Was that really what you wanted to happen? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

G13 has been mentioned as PROD below, but I'm thinking the opposite. Why isn't the promising draft template treated more like a PROD in that anyone can add it, but then anyone can remove it and it can't be added back? Natureium (talk) 17:11, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Noting for the record that Draft:Naphthalene-1,5-dione (referenced at the beginning of this Personal Attack section) was promoted to mainspace to "Preventing out of hand deletion of a promising draft" by an administrator without any sources, claims of notability, or verifyable facts. It was subsequently sent to AFD where consensus was resoundingly against it's inclusion. Just another piece of evidence that 1: The Promising Draft template was unwarranted for this draft. 2: All editors need to check their opinions/beliefs at the door lest they be brought before the community to question if the administrator still retains the trust of the community in their exercise of privileges. Hasteur (talk) 02:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Barking up the wrong tree? (G13 mistagging experiment)

@

Draft:William Healy: Postponsed in December of 2013, Nominated for deletion in July of 2015, Postponed for deletion in August of 2016, Nominated for deletion and sustained in April 2017, and resurrected by you. Frankly I'm now seeing a pattern. Your personal views substituting for the community endorsed policy and practice. Resurrecting Drafts that have been deleted for nearly a year because you see hope in them. This only furthers my belief that you need to hand in your administrator bits as your judgement is so impaired that you have lost the community's confidence. Hasteur (talk

) 01:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• • Obviously meets
    WP:PROF. Needs improvement, but obviously notable. Moved to María Vallet-Regí. --SmokeyJoe (talk
    ) 01:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

For the last few years, I have normally been concentrating at AfC on drafts in my area (academic biographies , and history); those which I think adequate I have accepted, and essentially none have ever been deleted at AfD. Those where I think the people or other subjects are notable, but the evidence inadequate to unambiguously meet WP:PROf or other criteria, I have usually upgraded and accepted if I could immediately do so, and almost all of these too have never been deleted at AfD. Those I think notable, but do not have immediately the time or facilities to demonstate it unequivocally, I have normally deferred--and I have a long list of those I intend to work on; some I have not caught in time, and those I have tried to keep a list of, with the intent of restoring and upgrading them. More recently, I have been forced by the priority of removing promotionalism to work less on these than I would like, but each time they come up for the 6-month AfD review, I try to upgrade a few into articles, and defer the others again. I have a very long term horizon here, and there are many articles or possible articles I have worked on at intervals over 5 or 10 years. One of the things I liked best about WP when I came here, is the principle that there is no time limit. I intend to continue to work in this fashion--if it becomes impossible to do it on wiki I will do it off-wiki, but I prefer to work on wiki, because sometimes someone sees one of my deferred drafts and upgrades it themselves, just as I do those that have been deferred or previously declined by others. This is a cooperative project, and we should be trying to help each other, not interfere with each other.

The only test for a borderline article is to put it into mainspace and see what the community things at AfD. No reviewer at AfC should try to exercise the power to decide on borderline notability. I have sometimes accepted drafts I am not sure of, and immediately sent them to AfD for a decision. The role of a reviewer at AfC is not act to keep articles out of WP, but to decide which ones might be considered notable , and let the community decide. I may have been declining too many, & it may even look like desire to keep my acceptance rate at AfD immaculate However, my reason is that in some cases I think that if I keep it at AfC I am the most likely person to be able to fix it, whereas if I send it to AfD I might not have time to do so. This will always be a balance. I don't see how anyone at all familiar with the idiosyncrasies of AfD could think there is any sure way to do this, or any one right path to follow.

Calliopejen1 is doing exactly as they ought to. It is those who try to interfere with rescuing articles who need to rethink their position. DGG ( talk ) 07:46, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Advice for insulating your Draft from all deletion

Shouldn't G13 (stale draft deletion) be a PROD-like process?

Just throwing my thoughts onto the already well-heaped pile in case anyone thinks this is a proposal worth discussing -- I think G13 should be a PROD-like process, and not a CSD one. In short: abandoned drafts (the current 6+ months seems reasonable) can be tagged as "proposed for deletion", if nobody edits or objects after a week, it can be deleted without MFD (and restored at WP:REFUND as usual). If anybody objects (by editing, by removing the PROD, by tagging as "promising", etc.), the discussion-less deletion can no longer happen because such a deletion would obviously not be uncontroversial, and thus discussion (MFD) needs to take place. Fundamentally it does not change much, but PROD is a fairly familiar concept for Wikipedians and framing draft-discussionless-deletion as a PROD-like process might help users understand and navigate through it. Any objections in any form to the deletion of a draft means its deletion is not uncontroversial and must be discussed. MFD isn't that busy, especially nowadays. Most of the old old old draft crud has been purged already. Just my 2¢.

I'm not entirely sure this is necessary, but I would happily support it as a second option / compromise option. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 19:08, 6 June 2018 (UTC) Struck per discussion below - this is unlikely to help. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 21:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

This is effectively what the {{

prod}}. If calling it "prod" would get people to come around, I would support. But {{promising draft}} is a better solution than prod for the reason I explained. Calliopejen1 (talk

) 19:39, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Firefly: Why do you support prod and oppose promising-draft? Genuinely curious. Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:40, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Calliopejen1: It's the pre-emptive objection that I'm not comfortable with. I fear it would lead to editors drive-by 'shielding' drafts from deletion without any real intention of working on them themselves. There's also no defined 'scrutiny flow' to coin a phrase for drafts - they could sit there indefinitely. Whereas with G13-PROD, they would be automatically PROD'ed after six months of inactivity, if someone objects then they go to MfD, if nobody objects then they get deleted. Either way, something happens with them. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 20:38, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Firefly: I'm not sure I entirely follow... A user who removes a prod template need not commit to working on an article. Why should a G13-prod remover be any different? By the way, we're talking about a few hundred {{promising draft}} templates applied in the history of the template existing, to give you a sense of the scale of the tagging. Right now I believe fewer than 100 drafts are tagged. Calliopejen1 (talk) 20:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Calliopejen1: I understand that the scale of the tagging is currently limited, but we should consider the potential future implications if the tag could permanently prevent summary deletion, as in the proposal above. To be honest, it's the second concern that is more important to me - the fact that with a "6 months pass unedited > PROD > MfD if contested / delete after 7 days otherwise" process there is a defined flow for stale drafts, rather than having them sit around indefinitely. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 20:52, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Firefly: What happens in your view if the MFD result is keep? Wouldn't that also result in the indefinite retention of the draft? Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:05, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Calliopejen1: Absolutely, but following a full deletion discussion. That is entirely different to indefinite retention based on one editor's opinion. ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 21:07, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Firefly: Except removal of the prod doesn't automatically result in a deletion discussion... (Someone needs to nominate.) And in practice people are deliberately nominating {{Promising draft}} articles for deletion. So I think we end up at exactly the same place but with a different template scheme... (I don't think anyone proposes that {{promising draft}} should permanently immunize an article from any deletion--just that it permanently immunizes it from deletion without a discussion.) Anyways, no need to respond if you don't want to. Thanks for talking this through. Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:12, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Calliopejen1: Hmm... ideally the MfD nomination would be automatic upon the PROD being declined, but I'm not sure how we could implement that. I hadn't considered that fully, and therefore am striking my support for this idea. I think the original G13-after-six-months is probably the way to go to ensure stale drafts don't sit around forever, with REFUND as a backstop (which needs some work to make it more user-friendly, but that's out of scope for here). ƒirefly ( t · c · who? ) 21:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Why? AfD is not automatic after a contested PROD.

✉

21:28, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The idea of a stale draft PROD came up before G13 mooted the whole thing. While I prefer {{Promising draft}} per Calliopejen1, I support stale draft PROD and think it is a great compromise idea. How far we have come from the times when this debate centered around whether staleness alone was a legitimate reason to delete drafts at all!! Now we are debating whether such deletions are open to any objection. *sigh* A2soup (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I see promising draft tagged pages as a pool to either promote, redirect or send to MfD if they are not really promising. So if you tag a page as promising, but it's not, expect a fast track to MFD because G13 is not going to sweep it up anyway. Tag too many incorrectly as "promising" amd expect a trip to AN for a topic ban. Legacypac (talk) 21:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Tagged promising drafts, whether left in draftspace, or moved to a WikiProject, is indeed a pool of pages likely to need promotion or redirection. If they need MfD-ing, that is a sign of injudicious identification of drafts. I think ANI is premature and overkill for talking to someone about injudicious taggings, posting at

WT:AfC or WT:Drafts would be better, with ANI as the last resort. An injudicious tagging should be able to be remedied by removal of the tag with notification to the tagger. MfD is for actual disputes, not mistakes. Personally, I would trust Legacypac to review the pool to identify for mainspace, redirection, or cases of injudicious taggings. --SmokeyJoe (talk

) 00:41, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

One positive effect of my side losing this discussion is that hopefully application of the {{promising draft}} tag should become less contentious. Calliopejen1 (talk) 01:05, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

HELL NO This is just the root question Should G13 be restored to stating: "Redirects and pages tagged with {{promising draft}} are excluded from G13 deletion."? masquerading as annother process. "Should G13 be treated like PROD" only re-casts the "You can only G13 ever" meaning we will have reams and reams of pages that were G13ed, Refunded, and now consigned to either sit in Draftspace limbo in perpituity or spam up MFD with dicusssions that will have a backlash authorizing a Super-Delete that can be used at will. CSD is not defined by uncontraversial, it's defined by uncontestable. In G13's case the rule is designed to address pages in AFC or Draft space that have not been edited in 6 months. Either it has or it hasn't. Hasteur (talk) 22:24, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

No, as so few people watch individual drafts, the g13 would make many disappear without the writer noticing. A lot of crud would go, but so would potential good pages. Perhaps a G13 applied after 6 months of inactivity could have a 1 week timeout, to give rescuers or the writer a chance to respond. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:45, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The bot already notifies the creator a month out and the CSD tells them about a pending deletion and a refund. System works. Stop trying to change the system for the odd useful page that might be deleted. There are countless more worthy topics that need attention in mainspace, or help newbies with their AfC drafts Legacypac (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

(Assuming we keep the CSD system without promising-draft exception) I don't think a time-out is needed. All we need is for Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions to be a more useful category. Let's break it down by day like PROD. It's impossible to see what is imminent peril. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:23, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Calliopejen1, that category is sorted by timestamp, but on a daily basis rather than by seconds. Primefac (talk) 15:42, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

@Primefac:, I just clicked some entries in descending order at random, and they do not seem to be sorted by last edit. Here is the sequence: 1/5/18, 1/1/18, 12/10/17, 12/31/17, 12/14/17, 12/27/17, 12/30/17, 12/7/17, 12/13/17, 12/17/17. Am I missing something? Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, read the wrong cat sort. They're sorted by month submitted, and then alphabetically. I suppose we could sort by submit date. Primefac (talk) 17:31, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

@Primefac: Do you know if would be technically feasible to sort by last-edited date? Submit date isn't really that useful because it is only very loosely correlated with when the article is at risk for deletion. Calliopejen1 (talk) 23:36, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

That's already how it sorts; the cat dependency is based on {{REVISIONTIMESTAMP}}, which goes off the last edit. Primefac (talk) 00:20, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@Primefac: But then why is the ordering so wonky? That series of links I posted above (dates reflect last edit date) were in the category in that order. Do you know what might be going on? Or who should I ask if not? Calliopejen1 (talk) 05:48, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

The ordering is "wonky" because while, as Primefac says, the sortkey is based on REVISIONTIMESTAMP, it's only based on the month, as he says earlier. (If I'm reading it right, the sort key is actually the last two digits of the year added numerically to the month number; so either the sortkey or my reading is very, very wrong.) Seems to me simplifying it to just {{{revisionts|{{REVISIONTIMESTAMP}}}}} would do the trick. —

Cryptic

06:27, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@

Cryptic: Ah, got it. I was confused because Primefac said "month submitted" above. Calliopejen1 (talk

) 06:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@

Cryptic: Where should that revision be made? It would make the category 1000x more useful. Calliopejen1 (talk

) 06:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

The sortkey I'm looking at is buried in {{

Cryptic

06:35, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Okay, I still don't really understand because I'm far from a template master myself. Left a comment at

Template talk:AFC submission. Calliopejen1 (talk

) 06:45, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done. Primefac (talk) 12:49, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

You are confused. There is no "promisimg draft exception". That was rejected by concensus after the first batch of randomly tagged pages were run through MfD and deleted. Don't confuse a "request" with a "requirement" Legacypac (talk) 00:23, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

The bot's not notifying anybody. —

Cryptic

23:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Good reason for that Hasteur (talk) 23:40, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@

Cryptic: Indeed, see my post of 21:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC) on this page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk

) 08:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I've deleted 2468 pages citing G13 in the deletion summary; 105 have been restored afterward, but hardly any (on the order of a dozen) were edited after that other than minor gnomish formatting tweaks. Exactly 6 of those titles are currently bluelinks: one's in mainspace, one survived

Cryptic

23:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Well I don't normally watchlist, as my watchlist is already too big just from things I have written. So I will have a look at my undelete log and see some idea. When I looked about a year ago it was about 50% got some action. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

For restores from the first half of May:3 turned into articles, 15 were edited, 22 not edited, 2 only were deleted again. So a bit over half are ignored totally. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 01:21, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I see it a little differently: almost half were actually worked on. I consider that a very satisfactorily high proportion. DGG ( talk ) 07:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

These are drafts that someone went to the effort to ask to be undeleted, so I would have expected a higher percentage. Natureium (talk) 17:08, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• There's a key advantage of stale draft prod, if it is used to put the drafts in a visible list that the whole community can look at, just as regular prod. This will encourage other people than the original contributor to possibly work on the articles, and will also give the community a clearer view of where the problem areas are. I've always considered the worst defect of the AfC system is that it essentially isolates the material from other editors, and thus fails to take advantage of one of the key virtues of WP, the size & diversity of the editing community. It will at least help to deal with the defect that someone who might want to resurrect a G13 deletion other than the original editor will never have a chance to find it. Thinking about this, I consider it a very promising suggestion , and we need to consider more carefully its merits. DGG ( talk ) 08:00, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• It ought to have been "draft-prod" from the beginning, really. It already functions as one, being the only CSD criteria that is automatically
  WP:CSD, speedy deletion is reserved for "the most obvious cases [...] with no practical chance of surviving discussion". I don't think most G13'd drafts actually fit that basic criteria. – Joe (talk
  ) 11:18, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - The trouble I see is the difference between the ideal that article tags are intact promising, and the reality. If editors had to give a valid reason for adding a Promising draft tag I probably wouldn't oppose, as long as others could challenge the reason. However at the moment if a "Promising draft" is still un-edited after 6 months, either the reason was obscure and should have been cited to help it progress, or its just been put on because someone just likes the subject, or miss judges its promise. One editor being able to tag with no reason should not give immunity. Six months is a long time for no one to edit at all even though it's flagged up in Category:Promising draft articles. However maybe a compromise would be it gets extended to 12 months, and if not one of the editors that care so passionately about promising drafts can manage a single edit then it's really isn't very promising. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose because there's no point in waiting a week when they've already been abandoned for a full 6 months. Adding another step to the process is unnecessary. It's not someone's eager article they are working on and will be devastated by deletion. Natureium (talk) 17:13, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose we have G13 soon cat already with 4300 pages to be deleted in the next 30 days. That is like a PROD. Advertise it better if you want. @Joe "the most obvious cases [...] with no practical chance of surviving discussion" perfectly discribes 99% of the pages deleted G13. They either are half baked, exist, are Copyvio, non-notable, spam, or are otherwise useless. I can easily tag 1/3 of the G13 eligible pages under another CSD without even looking for copyvio since so many are G2, G11, and even some attack pages. No one wants 4300 pages a month run through MfD hence why we have G13. Legacypac (talk) 17:36, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Like others above me, I think a draft should continue to be eligible for G13 even after the {{
  WP:F6 all provide seven-day grace periods between tagging and deletion. This might appease the editors who think stale drafts are getting deleted too quickly. Mz7 (talk
  ) 04:32, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Ah, just scrolled up and realized this was already thrown out there by Graeme Bartlett above. Turns out, a bot already notifies (or notified, before the bot operator retired :P) the page creators a month before their drafts are to be deleted, and all these soon-to-be-eligible are sorted in a category that interested editors can review: Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions. The grace period is probably unneeded, then, I suppose, since it is already redundant to current practice. Mz7 (talk) 04:43, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
• @
  Cryptic: Does Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions also include pages that aren't tagged for AfC but are in danger of G13 deletion? I don't think it does. If it doesn't, there needs to be some way for those pages to be monitored. We have Wikipedia:Database reports/Stale drafts but this is only for pages that already qualify for deletion. Calliopejen1 (talk
  ) 15:19, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

  No, because they're not in the AfC process. You could always ask MusikAnimal to create one though. Primefac (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

  All drafts will soon be included in Special:NewPagesFeed (as part of the 2018 AfC improvements), which will help with this. — MusikAnimal ^talk 16:39, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

  @MusikAnimal: How will that help? I don't think NPPers are going to unilaterally move drafts to mainspace (particularly at the beginning where they are actively being developed) so promising drafts are still likely to be forgotten about and deleted after 6 months. Unless I'm missing something? Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:47, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

  These changes are meant to be for the benefit of AfC reviewers, too (or anyone, for that matter). Having drafts in Special:NewPagesFeed means you get sorting by creation date, filter by review state (unsubmitted, in your case), and so forth. The plan also includes incorporating ORES scores, so you'll be able to sort by draft quality and assessment prediction. This should allow you to easily find likely promising drafts (according the ORES models). User:SQL/AFC-Ores gives you a small taste of this feature. That list is just for AfC submissions though, I think. — MusikAnimal ^talk 18:34, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Leave {{promisisng draft}} in place but allow challenge

It seems to me that the issue with {{promising draft}} is that some editors don't like the idea that it is permanent. They have a point, but I don't think the template should be removed altogether. It should be left in place to alert the closing admin that an editor thinks the draft has potential. Instead, I propose that a system is constructed that allows the template to be challenged by adding a new field to it. A rationale should be required. An acceptable rationale is that the article would be eligible under some CSD criterion if it were in mainspace. If the page is not eligible for CSD, then we really shouldn't be deleting it, or at least, it should go to MFD for a discussion. SpinningSpark 16:17, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd be fine with this. I think that the template should force some amount of actual thought about the draft, and not just an autotagging after x months followed by an admin coming along and autodeleting it because it hasn't been touched in x months. Tazerdadog (talk) 09:09, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I think it should be considered the same as a PROD tag. Anyone can add it, but anyone can remove it and it can't be added back. If you feel that strongly that it should be saved from deletion, improve it.Natureium (talk) 15:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

No. The whole basis of PROD (and all deletion processes here) is that we default to keep if there is no consensus. A challenged G13 should be treated like a challenged PROD and force a deletion discussion. It is against the principles of collegial discussion and consensus to delete out of hand when opposed without testing consensus, and hence against the five pillars. What I am saying here is that G13 should override that if there is a CSD that would apply in mainspace, and editors should have a system of so marking an article. In any case, it is indefensible to hide from the reviewing admin the fact that the G13 has been challenged by removing the template that says it has been challenged, regardless of whatever criteria are put in place for a valid G13. SpinningSpark 18:11, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

This. On Wikipedia, disputes are resolved by discussion. A contested prod forces an AFD discussion to proceed with the deletion. A contested G13 should result in an MfD unless the draft has problems so severe that it would get speedied. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:50, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

A

contested PROD forces nothing, except in a negative way: it prohibits a subsequent PROD. A follow-up AFD is not mandatory. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk

) 12:19, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

It forces AFD if you want to delete the article. The analogy for drafts is that if two people disagree on whether a draft is promising, the one who thinks it isn't can drop the matter instead of going to MfD. Tazerdadog (talk) 19:14, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

If you want to delete the page, and there is a suitable CSD criterion, you can use that: you are not forced to AFD. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:46, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I strongly support this proposal and think it is better than the status quo. It balances concerns about abuse of the template against the need for discussion where at least one editor has indicated that a draft should not be deleted. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:22, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Good idea, certainly better than completely abolishing a primary method of preserving good content. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 20:51, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

With some digging for diffs I can assemble a good case that Calliopejen1 has abusively used this template indiscriminately since the tag was created. Another batch of badly tagged "promising drafts" were just deleted via MfD, and that was just the latest. It's time that Calliopejen1 stop pushing every angle to give their oft misguided opinion tag ANY special status or I will become modivated to show they need a topic ban from the tag and/or the tag is used so indiscriminately generally it should be deleted completely. Legacypac (talk) 18:36, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you consider "abusive" but I take the same approach to adding {{

prod}}) is abusive. The tag merely indicates that a user thinks the deletion merits discussion. Calliopejen1 (talk

) 18:43, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

While you are welcome to do so, this is not the place to do it. Comments on the substance of the proposal are welcome, but comments about specific editors are not really germane here. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:50, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Contining round after round of effort to make this tag into anything more than an opinion is disruptive. Please stop. Legacypac (talk) 19:06, 11 June 2018 (UTC)