Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy/Mars task force/Archive 2
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Name
Uh, maybe you should just do
13:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)- There are still a lot of relevent articles --GW_Simulations18:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- I dont see the point, the list articles seem to give enough encyclopedic information necessary. Maybe wait until we colonize mars and your great, great grandchildren can start on such a project. – Tutmøsis (Talk)17:21, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
- Firstly, many articles haven't been created yet, and secondly, more can be added.
- The only thing to add to the lists, I would suggest is coordinates. – Tutmøsis (Talk)17:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest that that came under location. That way, it doesn't matter if exact co-ordinates are unknown. --GW_Simulations18:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest that that came under location. That way, it doesn't matter if exact co-ordinates are unknown. --
An excellent source of information on Martian geography is the well researched trilogy of novels by Kim Stanley Robinson, Red Mars, Green Mars, and Blue Mars. Rick Norwood 21:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Thoughts
First, I don't think this is thinking too small. Mars as a topic is enormous: probes, in culture etc. Limiting this too geography is a good idea.
The first thing that needs doing is deciding on a uniform system of longitude. I think we should go with 0-360°, East only, as this seems to be the way of the future [1]. Google Mars, perhaps unfortunately, has decided to use 0-180°, East and West both. I would like opinions here as I've started four articles in two days and want to be sure I'm doing what others will do. Note if you have a west coordinate, simply subtract it from 360 and turn it into east.
Also, I've added
One general question, as well: is it best to have thousands of stubs, or larger articles absorbing many simple objects? Google Mars, for instance, has 800+ craters listed. Do we need an article for every one? If not, what do we do instead? Marskell 16:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Good Question. I'm not entirley sure - it's down to the editor really. Personally, I prefer stubs, but others prefer to go into more detail. I think that a combination of the two would make for a more effective project (someone to create stubs, someone else to fill them out. --GW_Simulations18:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- Good Question. I'm not entirley sure - it's down to the editor really. Personally, I prefer stubs, but others prefer to go into more detail. I think that a combination of the two would make for a more effective project (someone to create stubs, someone else to fill them out. --
Image Problem with Template
While adding the crater template to Endurance (crater), I noticed that the image would be pushed to the left and the text beneath to the right. Someone care to investigate and/or fix the problem? -- Riffsyphon1024 09:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- After using the mountain template, the images centered fine in them, but the crater template continues to boggle me. -- Riffsyphon1024 09:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Ah, found and fixed the problem. It was lacking the colspan=2 align=center| code to center the image properly. Should have known all along. -- Riffsyphon1024 09:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Similar Project
I've been working on a similar project to have an article for all named featured on Saturn's moon
- I agree. This shouldn't be limited to Mars, though it has the most features of any one planet or moon besides Earth. But we could make Mars a subproject of a Solar System Wikiproject, if the creator of this project agrees. -- Riffsyphon1024 04:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- Btw, very cool that you are on the Cassini Imaging Team itself. An added bonus in the land of Wikipedia. -- Riffsyphon1024 04:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
A template
Now that the vandals have disappeared for the time being, it's time to consider whether or not to have a project template, much like the ones here that we could stick on the talk pages of our better articles. I would like ideas for icons and whether we should accept the boilerplate wording or not. MER-C 07:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- Done, see User:MER-C/Martian Geography. MER-C 10:40, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I plan on starting tagging on the weekend, so this is the last opportunity (no pun intended) to raise any concerns. MER-C 12:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
All done. MER-C 03:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Martian Geography???
This whole project is based on assumption that geography means the study of places, which is not. Geography is actualy study of Earth. "Geo" means Earth, so the term Martian Geography is actually misnomer.
- Yeah, but "Wikiproject Areography" is somewhat obscure because not everyone knows what "areography" is. Martian Geography is unambigious to the uninitiated. (P.S. I encourage you to join - most of the time there's nobody here except when there aren't vandals for me to whack). MER-C 12:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
- Areology was a new term to me until I saw it in use here. So it might be worth keeping geography for the time being. -- Riffsyphon1024 16:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
- While "Martian Geography" may technically be a misnomer, there really isn't a suitable alternative in common usage. In planetary sciences, terms such as geography and geology, while technically refering to the Earth in the etmology of their names, have taken on a more generic connotation: Geology refering to surfical processes, and geography refering to the study of places. --Volcanopele 18:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
- How many of those who use geometry on a daily basis around the world actually make calculations that have anything to do with the Earth? In most cases they are measuring the dimensions of buildings or objects - not the Earth. The 'geo' prefix simply refers to the historical roots of the given field of science. --AndersFeder (talk) 20:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Martian Geography vs. Geography of Mars vs. Areography
it's been suggested that
Simply redirect from "Geography of Mars" to "Aerography" - then people will become educated about the term, which is entering popular usage. shaunmoss
Stub sorting
Why not create specialty stubs for mars like "MarsCrater stub," "MarsMountain stub," “MarsValley stub,” & “MarsWhatever stub?” As opposed to individually tagging each and every mars crater stub with “mars stub” & “crater stub.”--aceslead 22:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- The best way to do it (I think) would be to make {{mars-stub}} a subcategory of {{crater-stub}}. There's also a few Saturnian and Jovian stubs thrown in there too, perhaps a couple more stub types? MER-C 12:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Are you going to use WikiProject Stub sorting. MER-C13:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Are there any other page i created and then forgot about?--aceslead 19:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- I encountered a problem when creating the {{MarsCrater-stub}}. I didn’t change anything. Weird. The articles are still in the {{Mars-stub}} and {{crater-stub}}. Any thoughts?--aceslead 20:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- Did you check in with 08:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
The stub discussion is
Project directory
Hello. The
Category:Martian stubs is up for renaming
The proposed new name is Category:Mars stubs. Please voice your opinion here. MER-C 10:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
*SUPPORT--aceslead 20:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- Uhh, what I meant by "here" was Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2006/November/7. MER-C 08:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Next time make it clear that you should go to this "LINK".--aceslead 18:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I just nominated the Olympus Mons article for the Article Creation and Improvement Drive because I think that that article deserves to be class A. I thought this nomination might be of some interest to you all. Thanks! S.dedalus 06:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
- Eagle crater and possibly Valles Marineris but haven't got around to doing it since there's still some 850 potential moon stubs for me to tag, articles I want to create, vandals I want to whack and a whole new load of dead ends I want to prod. MER-C07:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Areography
The happy changing from an to Geology of Mars is back on the agenda! Lets try to get it clear or do a voting or what ever: Areography as a term has no history and is not used in the science! Is ther anybody who can find a article stating areography is geography of mars? If this is the case we will change it back, but the first discussion yielded nothing and I do not think there will be any proof for Areography being something else than the distribution of animals over a certain area. --Stone 09:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- A quick Google search for areography throws up some related stuff. I also remember seeing in the compact (ahem) Oxford dictionary and saw the Martian definition. Here's Wiktionary's definition. There's 8 ghits on various NASA websites. It is borderline compared to the non-notable neologisms I deal with over at AFD.
- However I searched through the various MSSSwebsite.
- Geography of Mars is a lot less ambigious and more user friendly, though. MER-C 10:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I put some literatur on the talk page of Geography of Mars which show that already biology claims the word. I found nowhere a good source, and because of that the Geography should stay Geography. The template contains the Areology and should also chnaged to Geography of Mars.--Stone 17:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Areology is the same problem, but there is no claim from biology!--Stone 18:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Roughly the same story, but this one seems to be more prominent: 0 mentions in JGR; 0 ghits at the Mars Journal, 0 ghits at MSSS, 55 ghits at NASA, 10,500 ghits, defined at Wiktionary.
Oblate Mars
Could someone knowledgeable have a look at the new article
Wikipedia Day Awards
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
proposed move of "Areology" to "Geology of Mars"
I have proposed that "Areology" be moved to "Geology of Mars". Please comment on the talk page of this topic. Lunokhod 17:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Basin Groups article proposed for deletion.
I have proposed the Basin Groups article for deletion. Please leave your opinion at the appropriate page. Lunokhod 11:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Small craters on Mars
According to the planetary nomenclature, small craters on Mars are named after towns on Earth with a population of less than 100,000. But how come many craters are named after towns with a much larger population? Examples of this are Amsterdam, Bordeaux, Bremerhaven, Bristol, Cadiz, Cairns, Canberra, Charleston, Innsbruck, Johannesburg, Kaliningrad, Madrid, and so forth. Were they named after these cities before the 100,000 rule was created? Or is one rule missing from the article? Is this a large group of exceptions, or is the information incorrect? AecisBrievenbus 11:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Rename project to just Mars?
Does anyone think that it would be a good idea to rename this project from "martian geography" to "mars"? It seems to me that there probably should be a more general "Mars" project page like that of the Moon. Perhaps "martian geography" should be separate, even if such a project existed, dunno. Lunokhod 13:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- agree to that, probably best just to start Wikipedia:WikiProject Mars up and leave this project as it is sbandrews18:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- it's quiet round here, rather than wait, I just went and made the page, contributions welcome :) sbandrews 16:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
- I think that it would be easiest if we just merge this project into Mars. In this way, we only have to make minor changes to the user box and project banner. The discussion on project reoganization (see link at top of page) appears to have reached the same consensus. Perhaps you would like to inform the memeber of this group before doing so? I'm a bit busy noe, and am trying to keep my contributions focussed on the Moon at the time being. Lunokhod 10:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- it's quiet round here, rather than wait, I just went and made the page, contributions welcome :) sbandrews 16:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys! I am from Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Articles. I was wondering if any of the members from WikiProject Martian Geography would possibly be interested in the article: Caves of Mars Project. This article is currently tagged as Articles which need to be adopted. This is a collaborative effort to improve visitation to abandoned articles. Thanks! Luffy487 13:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Martian global warming
- Already redirected to Climate of Mars. MER-C 07:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I've been thinking about how the Mars and Moon wikiprojects will fit into the Solar System project and have come up with the following suggestions;
- All discussions on these two talk pages should be redirected to the Solar System talk page in order to help achieve a critical mass.
- The main Mars and Moon project pages should remain as is. These contain useful information related to these specialized subtopics.
- The article assessments and project banners should remain as is for the Moon and Mars subprojects. These are useful for those who are interested in tracking health of these respective subdisiplines.
- If the time comes that the talk page of Solar System becomes overloaded, we can spin off these topics back to the old Mars and Moon talk pages.
Let me know what you think. In about a week I'll make the necessary changes to the Moon talk page. (I am currently alerting the members of Martian Geography to the possibility of renaming this project to just Mars to increase its scope.) Lunokhod 22:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
New intro suggestion for this Wikiproject
Welcome to WikiProject Mars. The purpose of this WikiProject is to create, expand, improve and standardize articles about the planet Mars. This is very much a work in progress. Experience has shown that traffic on this page is light ;) and so we suggest using the
regards sbandrews 18:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
New page
Started new page at
- If you are moving pages, you should use the move tab at the top of the page, rather than just using the cut-and-paste method. I've listed the new page for speedy deletion under Talk22:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, but I kind of wanted to leave this one here, so any users who don't log on regularly can still find us - heaven knows it's quiet enough round here :), how is it best to handle that?, thanks for your help... regards sbandrews 22:40, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Ahhh, a move tab, hadn't seen that before, guess I should have read the instructions. sbandrews 22:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Basically, the article and talk page that you created are deleted, then this article and talk page are moved in to replace them, taking the page histories, and leaving behind redirects. --GW_Simulations
article assessments
I've change the banner {{
Sounds fine to me, sbandrews (t) 21:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)sbandrews (t) 20:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)- It still does not have the functionality of the old one, and hence I'm not doing anything until it's fixed. MER-C 10:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Martian geography to Mars
I just updated template:WPMars so that all references to Martian geography are changed to Mars, and edited the Category:WikiProject Mars page so it doesn't show up as a red link. sbandrews (t) 23:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
mars features local maps
if anyone needs to produce a topographic map of certain martian surface feature (like this of Isidis Planitia) you can write your suggestion on my talk page – i will try to do it as soon as i have some free time (~ in few days). --PowerCS 13:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- ok, first maps done – you can check in Opportunity rover articles. --PowerCS15:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what to do with this article
Especially in light of Transit of Phobos from Mars and Transit of Deimos from Mars being better articles. I'm thinking of converting to a disambig or deletion but I'm not too sure. Please give me some ideas. Thanks. MER-C 12:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- I've turned it into the skeleton of an overview article, how does that look? It's sort of disambiguaty, but with more meat on it. I think it could do well in this form. Bryan Derksen 07:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
- Seems OK for the time being, though it needs some sources and incoming links. MER-C 09:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Coordinate template
I've hacked up a coordinate template similar to
- Done. I'll go and inform WP:GEO. MER-C11:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Oppurtunity to create New Article on terminology of life on other planets (NOT LITTLE GREEN MEN!)
Organisms on Mars are referred to as Martian. What are organisms (e.g bacteria) on the other planets referred to as?
I have often been curious about this, Wikipedia only cites Jovian as life on Jupiter. Where can the OFFICIAL information be found?
I may have heard the terms
I am just curious for myself, although other people might be as well. So this could be a good opportunity for a Wikipedia user who is knowledgable in Astronomy and Grammer, to perhaps create an article/list or contribute this information to other articles.
Please could you let me know if anyone decides to do this as I would be most interested, thankyou. Ryan4314 05:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
- For those who are interested, the answers to this question can be found here, thanks to Kotra. Ryan4314 03:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Featured picture nom
Of Endurance crater. See Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Mars Endurance. I'm abstaining because there is a significant chance that I'll have to close the nom. MER-C 10:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Image scroll
I am excited that Wikipedia finally has a feature that allows the user to scroll across a large image without it taking up room on the article or stretching off the side. This use for the MER rover panoramas is perfect. -- Riffsyphon1024 04:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Better quality image
I created a better quality image (in my opinion) of Viking2-PIA00573.jpg. This image is used in Template:Mars_spacecraft. I stored the new version at Mars_Viking_22e169.png. I used the original 22e169.blu, 22e169.grn and 22e169.red images from the NASA Viking image archive, converted them to .png, manually removed the noise (and black stripes at the bottom), merged the three files and finally increased the brightness and contract by 20. All this was done in Adobe Photoshop CS2. The colors look a bit different than the old one, but the colors in this picture are not adjusted in any way (unlike the NASA image). I can also upload the merged file without the adjusted brightness/contrast, but that picture is even darker. The new file is like the orginal three files also in the public domain. Please tell me what you think. Van der Hoorn 20:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Due to a mistake I uploaded the original file at Image:22e169.png (removed). Compare it with Image:Mars_Viking_22e169.png to notice the difference in brightness/contrast. Van der Hoorn 20:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
interesting
well, not as big as Wikipedia:WikiProject Earth could be, but in the future this might be sooo big. I'm joining. --Andersmusician VOTE 18:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Quadrangles - anyone want to use them?
I just did a major bit of work on List of quadrangles on Mars, since I finally found a source that provided a comprehensive list of the quadrangles and their borders. Then, as a lark, I created a template that takes latitude and longitude as parameters and spits out the name of the quadrangle that point is in. User:Bryan Derksen/Template sandbox and four sub-templates contain it all. I was thinking this might be handy for subcategorizing geological features by region; just stick something like [[Category:{{Mars quadrangle|-46|102}} quadrangle]] in an article and poof, it's in the right category. We subcategorize every star by constellation, this doesn't seem much different. Any interest? Bryan Derksen 09:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- And on Earth, we do ___blank___ by country, so I don't see any problems. We'd also need something like Category:Martian quadrangles. MER-C 12:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'm all geared up to actually implement this now. I've created Template:Mars quadrangle, which is a general-purpose template for converting coordinates into quadrangle names (took longer than I expected since the input coordinates could be in east or west longitude) and I've standardized Template:MarsGeo-Crater so that it has coordinates in an easily-digestable form. All I need to do now is click the two templates together. Any last-minute suggestions or objections before I do? My plan was to create subcategories with names along the lines of "Craters of the Noachis quadrangle", but there's only ~70 crater articles currently, so should I keep my focus higher-level than that and just create "Surface features of the Noachis quadrangle" instead? I must confess that this exercise is sort of a proving ground for future work on Category:Craters on the Moon, which has nearly 2000 articles and is IMO in dire need of subcategorization. Hence my focus on Martian craters as the initial target of this. :) Bryan Derksen (talk) 02:56, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
- Expect the number of features of Mars to continue to rise in the future, especially with more exploration by the Mars Rovers, and the launch of the Mars Science Laboratory, which might shoot for Nili Fossae. This will help immensely during creation of new location articles. -- Riffsyphon1024 (talk) 07:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
There, I've done the craters. Since everything's done automatically via template it should be pretty trivial to change from categorizing craters in the generic "surface features of the Foo quadrangle" category to categorizing them in "Craters of the Foo quadrangle" once there are more articles to divvy up. Once I'm confident there aren't any lurking bugs remaining in these templates (and I haven't got any death threats :) I'll start adding mountains and other features as well. Bryan Derksen (talk) 03:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
MESUR
- Don't worry, there's no need to write a new article. MER-C 04:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, MESUR Pathfinder was only one element of the program. So it's still missing. -- 132.205.99.122 (talk) 20:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- The redirect can stay for the time being. But now that the page exists, you can create the article yourself, i.e. {{sofixit}}. MER-C 05:43, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually,
Surface features of celestial bodies
categories of Surface features of celestial bodies has been nominated to rename from cat:X on Y to cat:X of Y. See Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 December 9#Surface features of celestial bodies 132.205.99.122 (talk) 20:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Topography pictures
Hi, I am able to do for your article pictures like Image:Tempe Terra topography map.jpg or others are there. If you want some special picture or you are in hurry with it, just writte me to my discussion and I will do it for you. If not, I am trying slowly make all articles with this kind of picture but it will take a lot of time :] --Chmee2 (talk) 00:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
2009 has been proclaimed as the International Year of Astronomy. It would be great to tie in with this, both to help with the aims of the international year and to spur extra improvements to Wikipedia's coverage of astronomy. I've started a thread about this over at WikiProject Astronomy; please have a look and join in with the conversation. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 20:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
Mars hoax
Have just created an article on the Mars hoax of 2003, mabye it should be integrated into the Mars article or another article. Davido321 (talk) 08:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you
- The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
- The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
- A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.
Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.
Please
Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Mars
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.
We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.
A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.
We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 23:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Nomenclature
How about a standard naming for articles on Martian features? For instance, one article is named "Eberswalde (crater)", another one is "Holden (Martian crater)". Why not normalize on something like "Eberswalde (Mars)"? That is, the name designated by the IAU (per http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/jsp/SystemSearch2.jsp?System=Mars) followed by "(Mars)". AndersFeder (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we have a standard - the one you describe initially. The "Martian crater" ones are craters that share names with other craters in the solar system (e.g. Schiaparelli (Martian crater)/Schiaparelli (lunar crater)). I wouldn't change anything because currently it is obvious to anyone from the title of the article what it is about. MER-C 10:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Observed snowfall on Mars
NASA Phoenix Lander has observed snowfall on Mars, this info needs to be worked in on
) 21:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)May I destroy?
May I make a redirect page of the article
) 16:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)