Talk:Al-Shifa Hospital: Difference between revisions

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As a note, the proper name of the hospital complex is actually 'dar al-shifaa", though obviously the common name is simply shifa. If proof is needed, I can take a picture of the plaque with the name at the administrative building next time I'm down there. Tarek (talk) 04:03, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the sources regarding the use of Shifa as a hamas/militant bunker. Here are the direct quotes from the two sources: "Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in a "bunker" built by Israel, intelligence officials suspect" [1] and "Some Hamas leaders are believed to be hiding in bunkers underneath the largest hospital in the Gaza Strip, according to informed Middle Eastern security officials" [http://www.wnd.com/2014/07/hamas-leaders-believed-hunkered-underneath-gaza-hospital/]. This is obviously a politically charged topic, and I expect people to fall on the side of their politic. However, I think unless there are more reliable sources, at this point we should report it as the articles have: an allegation. Tarek (talk) 15:57, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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The use of the words "de facto headquarters" could be considered hyperbole, and should not be taken literally. The inclusion of this phrase in the original Washington Post article could be interpreted as an exaggeration of the presence of Hamas military personnel in the hospital, and overall, the use of this particular Washington Post article as an objective source of information is questionable (see the 'Controversies' subsection of the Washington Post Wikipedia article). Moreover, considering its subjectiveness, the inclusion of the phrase "de facto headquarters of Hamas" in the introduction of this Wikipedia article unnecessarily devalues the hospital's primary purpose of providing medical care. In order to maintain the objectivity of the article and avoid misleading readers, this phrase should be removed from the introduction. Stockrbonk (talk) 01:59, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is also already mentioned in the history section of the article, no need to have it in the lead The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I agree with the complete removal. The lede should summarise the article and now it contains nothing about its use by Hamas. I'll try to make it more concise. Alaexis_¿question? 20:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

UPDATE: This issue has been resolved. Stockrbonk (talk) 17:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I actually agree with you and TGMoE on this. I don't think something that can't be confirmed to be empirically true should be in the summary because no further context is provided for the claim in this section and it can be misleading to readers. And, as you said, it undermines the crucial role the hospital plays in providing shelter and medical care to Palestinian refugees.

Alaexis claims that the lead should summarize the article, but there's nothing in the lead about other information included in the History section like the Israeli occupation in 1967 or the hospital's current role in the conflict. Only including information about Hamas in the lead and nothing else presents a biased and potentially misleading message.

Additionally, these statements are not cited properly in the lead, and citations need to be included next to this information. Wormparty (talk) 22:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not *claiming* that the lead should summarise the article, this is the

policy. Feel free to add the summary of the history, including the occupation in 1967. I've added the citations. Alaexis_¿question? 09:36, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Your insertion is not NPOV, as you mentioned that its used by Hamas, but nothing else. You're right that policy asks us to summarize the article, but that doesn't mean "cherrypick certain facts from the article and summarize those while ignoring the rest".VR _talk 15:54, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely agree. This is exactly what I meant in my comment about the summarization and why it may be misleading. I think you articulated this point better than I did. Wormparty (talk) 20:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

“something that can't be confirmed to be empirically true” what specifically are you referring to? Drsmoo (talk) 02:59, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As Stockrbonk said, claiming that the hospital is the "de facto headquarters of Hamas" is hyperbolic, and the Washington Post article from which this claim is taken cannot and should not be used as an objective source of information. What I really meant by "empirically true" was "objectively true" and "can be proven".

Because of this, I do take issue with the claims about Hamas included in the History section (particularly with how it is written), but my main concern is the lead. Wormparty (talk) 20:43, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

“the Washington Post article from which this claim is taken cannot and should not be used as an objective source of information.”

It is, can, and should. Please research how reliable sources work on Wikipedia. The Washington Post has the highest level of reliability on Wikipedia. Drsmoo (talk) 21:07, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't mean we should be quoting its phrasing in the lead.

Iskandar323 (talk) 05:00, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Part of the problem here is the page's undue emphasis on quite a lot of essentially claims/rumour about the presence of Hamas at the hospital. Only the Amnesty report is really worth reading into.

Iskandar323 (talk) 07:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Claims from primary sources reported on in journalism and analysis from highly reliable secondary sources Drsmoo (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are still a couple of grammatical errors, but I think the format we have now is appropriate, and on par with most Wikipedia descriptions of other hospitals. Stockrbonk (talk) 21:15, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Part of me is still worried about the potential misuse of this article, though. The IDF has used the presence of Hamas personnel to justify attacks on medical facilities in the past, which makes some of the claims made in the "Use by Hamas" section of this article a little dodgy. Just how much of it can we trust? Of course, most Wikipedia articles follow the principle of each person being responsible for their own fact-checking, but it might be a good idea to mention where each source comes from with more clarity. Still, these claims deserve to be present in the article. Like I said before, I think the structure we have right now is appropriate, though it could use a little refining. Stockrbonk (talk) 21:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, al-Shifa Hospital was overwhelmed with wounded and dying people, and was running short on fuel, beds, and medical supplies.[22]

On the 17th of October 2023, an explosion which was likely the result of an Islamic Jihad misfire damaged the hospital.[23][24] It has pushed the hospital beyond its capacity to treat wounded people and it is close to collapse.[25] The hospital is also housing thousands of displaced Palestinians seeking shelter from airstrikes during the war.[26] "

To "During the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, al-Shifa Hospital was overwhelmed with wounded and dying people, and was running short on fuel, beds, and medical supplies.[22]"

The 2nd paragraph needs to be removed as it has nothing to do with Al-Shifa hospital, but rather the Al-Ahli Hospital: المستشفى الأهلي العربي located ~3km from Al-Shifa. Jeromecort (talk) 11:02, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the second paragraph, it seems to be someone mixing up the hospitalsThe Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 12:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can’t see a rationale for removing the use of the facility by Hamas for torture and murder as a discrete subject. This it certainly not normal use of a hospital, or something that should be listed within normal history. Drsmoo (talk) 16:18, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removal where precisely? You mean as a discrete section? The mentions are pretty scattered, and many of them a bit ropey - some are just Fatah accusations. The most concrete fragments are an HRW mention in 2006 and an AI mention in 2014. Overall, however, given the scattered nature of the mentions, the material is best contextualized within the conflicts to which they apply. The last mention was notably in 2014, so that's nearly a decade ago.

Iskandar323 (talk) 18:11, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

The context is provided in the source and the sentence. They were murdering alleged collaborators. Drsmoo (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Most critically, this is first and foremost an article about a healthcare facility. If anything is missing in this article, it is details of the history of the building/organisation as a hospital, not its occasional, partial misuse.

Iskandar323 (talk) 17:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Since this article has been locked, I thought it might be useful to suggest updates to the article here. Stockrbonk (talk) 20:51, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The lead already says that Hamas denied these accusations and that one of the doctors said it's an excuse to target the hospital. Alaexis_¿question? 12:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Al-Shifa Hospital. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Assertions made by the Israeli government during wartime are being printed as fact in the first paragraph. Using words such as "revealed" rather than claimed or asserted. Other organisations have refuted the allegations and these have not been cited at all. In example, Al Jazeera who has a media base in Gaza have refuted these allegations as has Hamas, who has only as much reason to lie as the Israeli government. The claim is not independently verified and should not be reported as fact.

https://news.sky.com/story/israel-accuses-hamas-of-commanding-attacks-from-inside-gaza-hospital-12994074 2A00:23C7:B680:F901:3413:57C8:FFC9:D303 (talk) 11:23, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't the the word "revealed" any more, so someone must have fixed it already. The lede also mentions the denial by Hamas and the claims are worded carefully and attributed. Alaexis_¿question? 13:35, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Al-Shifa Hospital. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

"Evidence" in the first main paragraph needs citation. 2A00:23C7:B680:F901:3413:57C8:FFC9:D303 (talk) 11:28, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This wording is the result of the latest round of changes. I don't see this specific word in the sources, so maybe we could change it to "... was described as a refuge of Hamas leadership and Hamas headquarters." Alaexis_¿question? 13:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence lists numerous events where this occurred, which each being a section of their own with the evidence cited there. It is not necessary to cite all the same evidence, as it is an opening summary sentence of the greater detail to follow. Pilotjc (talk) 02:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source, which includes the videos of said admissions: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/in-interrogation-video-hamas-fighters-confirm-terror-groups-hideout-under-gaza-hospital/

This should be added to the article, as part of Israel's claims that Hamas has a command center beneath the hospital. Thisissparta12345 (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have an obligation, as a free and objective encyclopedia, to present the evidence to the claims made by all sides in the conflict. Thisissparta12345 (talk) 19:41, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, there are too many dismissals in this article of Hamas's control and usage of the hospital as a human shield. Such as using Dr. Ghassan Abu-Sittah's statements as suggested fact and a neutral humanitarian party, when he is a career-long supporter of Palestine. Pilotjc (talk) 00:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Al-Shifa Hospital. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Change citation 22 source to: https://news.sky.com/story/israel-accuses-hamas-of-commanding-attacks-from-inside-gaza-hospital-12994074 Jako81624 (talk) 05:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alaexis, the Washington Post said "which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices." Please correct the source misrepresentation you returned. nableezy - 17:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And now we are saying "During and since the 2014 Gaza War The Washington Post called it "the de facto headquarters" of Hamas." when that is simply untrue. nableezy - 19:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zanahary this is a change completely unsupported by the cited source, kindly self-revert. Drsmoo, the AI report is discussing violence against alleged collaborators with Israel, why did you change that to their Palestinian opposition? The AI report never says anything about the violence being directed against Hamas' Palestinian opposition. nableezy - 18:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you not just revert me? Zanahary (talk) 18:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because there is a 1RR in this topic area, and because I like to assume users will do the right thing when errors are brought to their attention rather than just revert them. nableezy - 18:05, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You got an attitude for no reason. Zanahary (talk) 18:13, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPA. Are you not going to correct your source misrepresentation? nableezy - 18:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

And later the article says:

” Amnesty International documented how the Hamas forces used the abandoned areas of the hospital to abduct, torture, and kill members of their Palestinian opposition under an operation codenamed “Strangling Necks””

is this not true? Because the change I made just reflects that. Zanahary (talk) 18:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, that is not true, that is the change Drsmoo made that the Amnesty report does not support. The Amnesty report is about torturing and killing people Hamas accused of collaborating with Israel during the 2014 war. nableezy - 18:04, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So, Palestinians who resisted Hamas? Zanahary (talk) 18:12, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, Palestinians accused of collaborating with Israel during a war. Please dont substitute your judgment for the sources. That is what Amnesty reported. nableezy - 18:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@NableezyI did not make that change intentionally, I simply rolled back that section. When I originally wrote it, I think I wrote “alleged collaborators” And I agree that’s what it should say. Drsmoo (talk) 19:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]