Talk:Unisex public toilet: Difference between revisions

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Text and/or other creative content from sex segregation in public restrooms was copied or moved into unisex public toilet on 11 May 2018. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

"WHy gender neutral bathrooms", followed by a list of reasons why unisex bathrooms are superior to gendered bathrooms, is not an appropriate entry for a wikipedia article. I'm entirely in favor of unisex bathrooms, but this article is uncomfortably straightforward in its bias

Yeah, it reads more like an advocacy article in that section. I added an NPOV tag.

Usually when I read a Wikipedia article is in an article of information. This is the most biased article I have ever seen on the Wiki. This article is trying to cause these things to happen, not inform us about them. This article was so bad I couldn't figure out how to fix it so I'm commenting here. Please lets either fix this thing or eliminate it and start over. These editor can take their political biases elsewhere on the web. Not on an informative web site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.223.26 (talk) 03:55, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. 98.192.32.29 (talk) 14:02, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The scope of the article was originally neutral, but the expansion of the transgender topic/news events shifted the point of view to a biased POV. I've reverted the article to a previous stable version without all the bias. -

talk) 05:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply

]

Can we find another title for this article? At the moment it is written in exclusively American English, which is not appropriate for an international encyclopædia. Outside the USA, the word "bathroom" means a room where you go to have a bath. However, this article is obviously about the room you go to use the toilet facilities. At home, there may be a single room for both purposes - but in an office (such as the one featured in Ally McBeal), employees have nowhere to actually take a bath. Therefore, outside North America, it is not a "bathroom". Any suggestions for an international alternative? EuroSong ^talk 17:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They're traditionally known as gender neutral toilets. I will rename the article now. Dev920, who misses Jeffpw. 11:47, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gender-neutral toilet is a terrible name, neutral makes it appear only for use by eunucjs, Gender-free toilet is even worse, to me, it appears no male or female can use it, again. Maybe unisex is preferable, at least from a literal point.

What about restroom or washroom? Using the term toilet is as exclusive as bathroom, really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.26.242.20 (talk) 21:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Americans don't have toilets? Because we certainly don't have restrooms. Dev920, who misses Jeffpw. 03:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course we have toilets, they're what we sit on and shit into when we're inside our bathrooms. Rpm2005 (talk) 16:43, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that a general guideline for this is in order. thusly, the device into which waste is deposited should be called the toilet, and the facility(s) in which it is used should be called the lavitory(ies).Johnsmithminecraft (talk) 05:10, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the lavatory was the sink where you washed your hands after using the toilet. 66.234.219.175 (talk) 16:29, 17 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There has always been some controversy surrounding GNTs (e.g. "political correctness gone mad"). Perhaps this should be mentioned in the article? Lucy (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this article written like it's a homosexual issue? Unisex toilets are just a disgusting, unhygienic fad amongst cheapskate developers who are trying to cut costs at everyone else's expense. I can't believe people have hijacked what could have been a sensible article to fill it with dubious, tangential information about drag queens trying to sneak into the wrong bathrooms. Writing about unisex toilets as if they're primarily a homosexual issue is akin to saying that

Now I'm not part of the LGBT community so bare with me here but imagine a transgendered man needs to piss...if he goes into the ladies room and one of the women realizes he's a guy she could freak out and get him arrested yet if he goes into the men's room he could be violently beaten by drunk rednecks while they call him a fag. Now throw all that in the sauce with the very likely possibility of lowered self-esteem and anxiety problems that almost always come hand in hand with having to lie about who you are everyday of your life just to be happy and I'd say it's a pretty big issue. You and I have the luxury of never having to worry about stuff like that so we'll never understand what they have to go through just to get by in a world that mostly hates or is disgusted by them. Rpm2005 (talk) 17:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Think of it another way - separate toilets are actually somewhat demeaning towards men, because it implies that they are sexual predators who need to be kept away from women in a bathroom situation. But mainly what Rpm said. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why unhygienic? That seems a bizarre idea. In the building I worked in with unisex toilets, they were cleaner than the 'normal' style mens toilets. (I don't know about the womens toilets, but the cleaners I've spoken to who worked in other buildings told me that womens toilets are generally dirtier than the mens.) Jacobitten (talk) 18:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gender neutral toilets are a human rights issue that are crucial aspects of everyday life for LGBT people (partially those who are

Wait, so unisex toilets are always single-user? Then I don't know what's the big deal. OK, I live in Germany and have never been to the US so that may explain it. Maybe it's a Europe vs. US thing, but here single-user toilets are always unisex, at least I've never seen a gendered one, and (apart from portable toilets, the infamous DIXI toilets, or those at highways) they're regularly much cleaner than (multi-user) public men's toilets, which tend to be disgusting especially at railway stations. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:26, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Under this model, University of Bradford Union became the first university student union in the United Kingdom to institute gender neutral toilets in 2008 after campaigning by the student union's welfare officer, Sophia Coles-Riley"

Why do we need to know this young woman's name? Is not her designation as the student union welfare officer sufficient identification for the purpose of the section, i.e. to inform the reader of an event which took place (the reassigning of restroom facilities to that of gender-neutral ones)? From what I can tell she does not meet the criteria of Wikipedia:Notability (people), (this section is especially relevant) so I am removing it until a reason for it's posting can be given. Rpm2005 (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. Sophia is not a woman - you could have taken the time not to assume as such on such as article!

2. Sophia is a friend of mine and I thought it would amuse them to put their name on Wikipedia, which it did. Obviously it's not encyclopaedic and I am content that it was removed. Dev920, who misses Jeffpw.

"In 2008, the University of Bradford Union became the first public body to introduce unisex toilets."

When I worked for the government during the period 2000-2003 there was a unisex toilet on each floor of the building I worked in. This was not a new thing then, they were clearly designed to be 'multipurpose' and had been built at the same time as that building, during the 1980s.

Jacobitten (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was going by what the article said. However, just to be safe, I'll remove that part of the sentence. (MurasakiSunshine (talk) 06:02, 11 April 2012 (UTC))[reply]

They were the first student union to explicitly create gender neutral toilet blocks. Obviously single cubicle toilets have existed since indoor sanitation. Dev920, who misses Jeffpw. 23:06, 16 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If 26 inline citations are sufficient, please remove the tag above. If not sufficient, please add additional references.--DThomsen8 (talk) 23:51, 15 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. If any specific sentence is disputed, add a [citation needed] or [better source needed] tag instead. Almost everything seems properly sourced right now. ~Mable (chat) 07:28, 16 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Ostenstibly it's about unisex toilets, but in practice it seems to either be an advocacy piece for creating them for trans people, or about the separate issue of bathroom bills. Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:48, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree this article needs further work. I think we should merge it together with

Sex segregation in public restrooms and work on the quality of it then. EMsmile (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

The History section of the article is conflating segregation based on sex in relation to using a toilet with racial segregation. The article is supposed to be about unisex toilets and the rational for having unisex toilets. Leveni (talk) 1:28, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

yes, the article needs a lot of work (see also my merger proposal). Are you in a position to help improve this article, User:Leveni? EMsmile (talk) 15:04, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats on being bold. The merged article still needs a lot of work, not least with sourcing, but it's in a lot better position now.

I think one distinction that needs to be clarified in the article, and then alluded to in the lead, is the difference between a large single facility that can be used by anyone (often designed for wheelchair users and parents with infants), and a multi-user facility (either with the only change being the "men" or "women" sign on the door, or a purpose-built or redesigned set of cubicles). For example, most public buildings that I go into in the UK have three doors leading off a corridor: disabled/family room (one large space, one toilet, one sink, one emergency pull alarm); men (urinals, a couple of cubicles, sinks); women (several cubicles, sinks). That disabled/family room could easily be called a unisex toilet. I don't think that is what this article is about, but it's not clear what all the sources are talking about. So we as article writers need to set out what we mean. (By way of contrast, I think we did a good job at portable toilet, where some items known under that name can be picked up with one hand, and others need industrial lifting gear.) Carbon Caryatid (talk) 13:02, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. It was a bold move and I hope people are OK with it. But I am glad I did it because now we can focus all of our attention on one article, instead of two that had plenty of overlap. User:Lamilli thanks for adding the new content, although some of the content you added without providing references. Can you please go back and add the references in each case? Also, you seem to be adding a lot of quotes. Not sure if quotes are really all that important/necessary/helpful? EMsmile (talk) 12:05, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And User:Carbon Caryatid I agree with you, it still needs a lot of work to take out repetition. I wonder if the main authors of the two articles mainly had the transgender issues in mind? That kind of toilet that you mentioned (disabled/family room) is indeed unisex but probably not what the authors of the article mainly had in mind - as it's not meant to be used by able-bodied persons who are not accompanying anyone (?). It seems that the main focus of the article currently is that issue in the United States where transgender & intersex people are saying they are not comfortable with being forced to choose either male or female. Having said that, I think this article needs to take a global perspective, not just a United States focused perspective. For example, in developing countries it is still very much a conviction by all stakeholders that school toilets and public toilets should be separated by gender. I think we need to explain whether the issues in those countries are different to the issues in the United States (is it possibly a "luxury" problem?). I don't have the answers. If someone wants to dive more deeply into this (i.e. the developing countries perspective), you might find it useful to read these discussion we have had on the SuSanA discussion forum: https://forum.susana.org/170-shared-toilets-community-toilets-or-public-toilets/21578-are-public-toilets-inclusive-of-transgender-and-intersex-people and here: https://forum.susana.org/170-shared-toilets-community-toilets-or-public-toilets/18899-social-inclusion-toilet-rights-and-legal-protection-for-transgender-americans-and-unisex-public-toilets and here: https://forum.susana.org/170-shared-toilets-community-toilets-or-public-toilets/22012-sex-segregated-toilets EMsmile (talk) 12:05, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

EMsmile, without going through the article history, I would hazard a guess that most of it has been written by US, UK, and other Anglo-First-World editors, with more of an interest in gender issues than sanitation. NB at the top of this page - this article has been assigned to several students on modules about sociology and "lgbt cultural representations of sexuality", not engineering. Many of the sources are recent journalism. Yes, "the main authors of the two articles mainly had the transgender issues in mind" - that seems clear to me. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:43, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've cut this out from the article for now. It can go back in once it has references. Also I would not put it under "disadvantages" as it is not an objective disadvantage but rather a subjective one. The way it is written seems anyway that the authors would not agree that it is a disadvantage:

" === Threat to public morality === The unisex toilets are met with opposition from the conservative side. The sharing of toilets is presented as immoral and against prevailing habits. The debate is sometimes controversial and bears the hallmarks of [[moral panic]], especially in the USA. Aspects of cultural identity and the feared change in values play into the controversy: with the abolition of gender segregation in public toilets, a decay of morals and public order is called for. Similar discursive patterns are used as in the argument against the abolition of racial segregation in the USA in the 1950s. A warning is issued against the looming threats: violence and sexual assaults would increase. An often cited scenario is the accusation that transvestites are already abusing small children in toilets." EMsmile (talk) 12:24, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't finished. But I agree: it's not realy a disantvantage.--Lamilli (talk) 12:47, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lamilli you seem to have the habit of not explaining your edits, i.e. you are not putting an explanation into the edit summary. You do know about the importance about the edit summaries each time you save an edit, don't you? I would really appreciate if you could start doing it, given that you are making broad and sweeping changes. If you don't know what I mean with "edit summary", I can explain. It would make collaboration on this article easier and more fun! EMsmile (talk) 11:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest archiving this page, so we have a fresh talkpage where all the necessary issues can be discussed without having to scroll through years of old comments. (And I further suggest holding off on making other substantive comments, until someone agrees (and archives this page) or disagrees with a cogent reason.) Carbon Caryatid (talk) 17:13, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a big fan of archiving. I think it always helps to see previous discussions and this talk page is not overly long yet. But if you really feel it should be archived, go ahead, I won't fight it. ;-) EMsmile (talk) 11:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not that huge at this point, but agree with EMsmile. Fwiw, you don't have to scroll anymore; I added a skip box at the #top. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 19:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I may suggest this again in a few weeks or months. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not agreeing to a recent set up edits that are being made to this article. Basically, you are writing it in a quite "biased" way in my opinion, glorifying unisex public toilets and making it seem like sex segragation is akin to racism, e.g. Lamilli. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the point of this article but I thought we were explaining that unisex public toilets have a place but we are not condemning all gender-separated facilities, or are we? I reckon a lot of people are quite happy with using gender-separated toilets for particular reasons. Let's keep it neutral without making it sound like gender-spearated toilets are somehow an evil thing. - Another thing: we have to explain what the different options are with dealing with sinks. Often, the sinks are outside the cubicles and are therefore in a semi-public space. This is where many women might quite prefer to not be surrounded by men. If the sinks are inside of the cubicles, then it's a different story (but also more expensive as the cublicles need to be bigger then). Anyway, my main point is: I think it would be great if this article could be encyclopedic and neutral and not start pushing a certain agenda. - Also keep in mind the situation is very different for different countries. You cannot simply extrapolate the situation in the US and UK to e.g. Pakistan or India. Norms, expectations etc. are different. The article should not be solely focused on the situation in the US.EMsmile (talk) 11:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

not a forum for discussing your own views

on the subject, or debating the topic. The middle part of your post above starting with, "I reckon..." and ending "my main point is" is thus not appropriate here, as it simply states your own opinion about the topic. The part afterward about NPOV and globalizing the topic is more to the point, but is rather general.

Although I agree with you as far as the US/UK vs. south Asia issue is concerned, rather than simply mention it, why not go find some references about south Asia on the topic, and either propose them here, or add them directly to the article yourself, along with a summary in your own words of what they have to say? That's how to really improve the article. The worst that could happen, is that it would be reverted, but that would prompt a discussion here per

WP:BRD about a specific content edit, which is, imho, a more fruitful avenue to improving an article than adding general commentary about what's wrong with it. Mathglot (talk) 08:25, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

I can only agree with the recently added comment. @EMsmile: (1) This is not about opinions and whose opinion should be reflected in the article. Indeed, I did add significant content to the article and I make no bones about the fact that I support the issue, i.e. the move to unisex toilets. Yet, I wouln't consider it biased what I added. I also included a lengthy section about problems and disadvantages which was not included before. We might be of different opinions about that topic, but if you add what you think is missing from the article (for instance the sinks), the result should be a balanced and two-sided article. (2) I don't see the point why I should "describe my changes" if you might as well just "compare versions". If I delete things others just included, this might be necessary. If I just add new content, what's the purpose? (3) I would be "...glorifying unisex public toilets and making it seem like sex segragation is akin to racism...I reckon a lot of people are quite happy with using gender-separated toilets for particular reasons." - I reckon a lot of people were quite happy with racial segragation either, so this shouldn't be an argument.--Lamilli (talk) 09:50, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathglot I agree with everything you said. This article should be balanced and neutral. The recent edits by Lamilli were not balanced, as you can also glean from his/her reply just above here. I should have made the heading of this section "do all reliable sources condemn sex segregation as a bad thing?" or something like that. As you can imagine you can find references for both points of view. If one editor only adds references for one side, but doesn't even try to explain the other side, then I have a problem. At the same time, I may not always have time to fix it myself. Also this is not my area of expertise so it would take me quite some time to find the suitable references. Therefore, I have put my criticisms here on the talk page in the hope that someone who has worked on this article in the past, or people who want to work on this in future, read this, and then hopefully help to make it into a balanced article. Lamilli: It is simply good Wikipedia etiquette to give a short explanation as to WHY you have made an edit, such as added or removed something. If you remove something, you can say in the edit summary "removed because controversial but no source" or "removed because this is repetitive". If you edit a sentence for clarity you can write "copy edits" or "changed around for clarity" (I am actually surprised that I should have to tell you the advantages of adding a comment into the edit summary field? It is so obvious to me; this is supposed to be a collaborative effort so surely you would agree with me that it's easier if we tell each other briefly WHY we made certain changes? EMsmile (talk) 10:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@EMsmile: As I said, I have written a detailed paragraph about disadvantages, problems in the implementation and criticism against unisex toilets. Similar in scope or even more than the positive points. I consider this balanced. If you see further problems and critique, go on and add them. I just haven't come up with any. Conserning the sinks: neither had I come up with the idea that anyone could object to shared sinks/washbasins. Nor have I found anything about that. If you have...go on and include that.--Lamilli (talk) 08:39, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

by the way, I had the same problem with the article female urinal. I felt that also there, Lamilli was pushing a point, i.e. very much glorifying female urinals rather than just describing how they work and where they are used etc. The article is not bad but I don't think it sufficiently neutral, and the same is happening here now. Just a word of caution, that's all. Apart from that, it's good that more content is being added and the references are being updated etc. So thanks for that. EMsmile (talk) 11:37, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I must say, I'm a little surprised. The only discussion we had there was about an image. We had different points of view, you preferred another one (do you?), and I resolved the conflict. That's it. Apart from that, the only contact we had on this talk page was this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Female_urinal#Excellent_article As I said, I don't feel we had much conflict (or conversation at all) on this article. Anyhow, we should discuss this topic where it belongs: on the talk page there.--Lamilli (talk) 08:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just mentioned the thing about the female urinals to indicate that you might have a certain "style" of editing that brings out your opinion more than perhaps a neutral point of view. It's easy to fall into that trap. It happens to me as well when I work on an article where I think I have a lot of prior knowledge, e.g.

UDDT. It's true that I didn't write much about my concerns on the talk page but I did put detailed comments in my edit summaries which I hope you have taken notice of. E.g. here where I had written "this sounds like wishful thinking to me (also the part about advantages does not need to be repeated here again). Or do you have any references to back up this statement? I have lived in Germany for years and have not seen a change, i.e. have never come across a female urinal in a public toilet yet!)" - Anyhow, I don't want to appear overly critical, I do appreciate all the work you have put into these articles and I look forward to improving them further in a collaborative effort with hopefully many Wikipedians who will join us. EMsmile (talk) 12:17, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

I've read over the article again and added the "globalize" tag (as per discussion above). I was also close to adding an "opinionated" tag. This is something that has been brought up on this talk page before (scroll up), although perhaps some of those concerns have been addressed by now. Either way, there are still a lot of statements here that need a citation; others have a citation but it goes to a Youtube video or a German news page (is it OK to use German news pages as references for statements that are meant to apply globally, i.e. not clearly marked to be just about a German case?). Also the choice of quotes is clearly biased as well. I actually find that quotes are often used to push certain opinions, rather than facts (especially if the quote comes from a "transgender activist" whose job it is to lobby). If we have to have quotes can they rather be from highly reputable sources, e.g. UNICEF, WHO rather than from people who are doing advocacy work? Isn't that rather primary research rather than reporting from secondary sources? I think this article can become very good and important but let's keep it neutral, just describing what unisex toilets are, what the issues are, rather than in every second paragraph condemning sex-segregated public toilets as a bad thing. There are surely reliable sources for both points of view and they need to be brought out in a balanced, non hyped-up up fashion. This might be very difficult if we keep focusing this article on the United States where this is such a heated, political issue right now. Once we broaden it to also include developing countries, we'll probably find a range of other literature that can be used as reliable sources (regarding why sex-separated toilets also have benefits). I am sorry that I write all this criticism here, rather than getting to work on the article! If I have time I'll get to work on it as well but I currently have a number of other Wikipedia articles on my to-do list. - Hopefully these comments are helpful regardless. EMsmile (talk) 11:09, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I've just had a look at the article for the first time since just after the merger and it has such fundamental troubling issues that I can't perform my usual

airplane toilet merit their own articles, while historic house museum toilet

does not. Or is this article about multiple-cubicle facilities, where men, women, and children queue together? If we can't sort that out, we can't build a coherent article.

And yes, sources need to be of academic standard wherever possible, not journalistic. Top-level is UN data and research. E.g. implications of sex segregated toilets on girls' education, worldwide.

Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Addition: this confusion is inherent in the lead. "Unisex public toilets also benefit people with disabilities, the elderly and anyone who needs the help of someone of another gender." The standard multiple-cubicle facility does no such thing. Whatever the queuing space, the cubicles are designed for one person. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 11:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you Carbon Caryatid completely. My suggestion is that the article should be about BOTH those two types and this should come out clearly in the lead and in the structure of the article. That means we have to reduce the emphasis on the transgender issues as it currently dominates the article a lot. We probably need a better structure (let's look at the table of contents). Or would a solution be to create a spin-off article which we call "Unisex public toilets in the United States"? I think we should put more emphasis on design aspects and we could utilise publications by PHLUSH. They have sent me some material by e-mail which I will copy in a new section below. I am really sorry that I have not yet had the time to build this content in myself but I hope by copying it here, it will help others to do so (or I might get around to it eventually). I have also asked the people at PHLUSH if they would like to help. EMsmile (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry about the lead for now. Let's focus on getting the article good: a strong focus and structure, academic refs, clear prose. Only then can the lead be re-written to summarise the main text.

As for creating spin-off articles, yes that is a possibility. There already is Bathroom bill, so abiding by the Wikipedia principle that no genuinely encyclopedic information should be lost to the project, items that don't really fit here, could be moved to there, in principle. Another idea is something along the lines of Timeline of women's suffrage. Timeline of bathroom bills? I'm joking about that actual title, but serious about the idea, in theory. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:14, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that in an ideal world, the lead is written at the end, when the article is complete. Here though we are dealing with a living document. We have readers who look at this article already now. The lead is super important and sets the tone for the rest of the article. If the lead focuses immediately on the sex discrimination thing then that sets the tone. I think it is important to first start with the better known aspects, e.g. toilet rooms for people with disabilities and people with young children. Also there is no need to add references in the lead. The lead should only have content that is from the main article where the references are included with the relevant sentences. Having only those gender-focused references in the lead would again distort the overall picture so I think it's better if we can agree to have no references in the lead (in line with Wikipedia standards). EMsmile (talk) 00:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't aware of Bathroom bill, thanks for pointing that out. I have now created links in both directions. Interesting that in the US the term "public toilet" seems to be so rare that the entire article on bathroom bill never mentioned the word even once! Bathroom bill is of course again completely US focused (suggest name change of the article to "Bathroom bill in the United States"?). I agree we could see where there is content in this article that is better off moved to the other article - perhaps that part about legislation in the US? EMsmile (talk) 00:30, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to catch up on some of the arguments here. Bathroom bill is - as a name for the phenomenon - a nice piece of activist alliteration (like potty parity); I suppose if the movement had first surfaced in the UK, it might have been named "loo law". The BB article is almost entirely US, but it does have a little bit on Canada. The focus of the article is "Bathroom bills affect access to sex-segregated public facilities for an individual based on a determination of their sex as defined in some specific way—such as their sex as assigned at birth". So it is about legal access, not any modifications in design. If there are other such laws around the world, then by all means add them to Bathroom bill, and move most of the existing content out to Bathroom bills in the United States. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am putting here some information from PHLUSH (see my notes above). It might help as we develop this article further: Some thoughts:

• At PHLUSH we've stopped using the rather outdated term Unisex, which refers more to things (clothing, architecture, etc) than people and is found objectionable by folks in the LGBTQ community.  Portland public toilets are simply signed “All-User Restroom.”  
• In terms of efficiency of user flow, private,direct entry single user stalls are optimal. They are, however, more expensive to construct.  Efficiency of use / user flow should be listed among advantages.  
• Without such a layout, the semi-private space (usually around the sinks)  between individual stalls and areas where the general public circulates remains.  This is the area where where non binary folks are made uncomfortable or beaten up.  It’s where architecture meets human rights.
• More here  Direct Access Family and All-Gender Toilet Rooms and here Design Trends: Inclusion, Privacy, Efficiency, & Convenience
• Many cultures will always lean toward sex-segrated facilities, even those with tolerant attitudes toward the LGBTQ community.

I've now re-arranged the structure and am proposing that we start off with "design aspects" to explain the different types of unisex public toilets. I have moved the more "advocacy" style content towards the end. The "design" section still needs more work. Some drawings there would be good, too. EMsmile (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While I do think that such a "design" section should be established, I think we should keep the "history" and "background" section on the top to conform with wiki standards.--Lamilli (talk) 15:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is not Wikipedia standard to have the history section at the top. See Manual of Style for WikiProject Medicine and for WikiProject Sanitation. Both have the history section at the end. See here and here. Do you agree that this article is primarily about a sanitation topic? It seems you see it more as a gender & transgender and social topic. By starting out with the design section we would appeal to those readers who want to know what unisex public toilets ARE before reading about the controversies around them. EMsmile (talk) 00:24, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok.--Lamilli (talk) 15:11, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are currently a mixture of terms used. Based on the fact that this was written initially with a US focus, I see "restroom" or "bathroom" everywhere. I propose to generally replace this with "public toilet" unless it is part of a title e.g. "American Restroom Association" or "American Restroom Legislation". What do you think? EMsmile (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed--Lamilli (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The same applies to "unisex" and "gender-neutral" which are interchangably used throughout the article.--Lamilli (talk) 15:56, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed re public toilet. Different words deserve a different section....Carbon Caryatid (talk) 19:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As an alternative, we could use the term toilet when we refer to the actual "piece of hardware" and restroom when we refer to the whole facility/room.--Lamilli (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:17, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We can also hyperlink to this article: toilet (room) when referring to the room. I think we can go ahead with replacing restroom and bathroom with public toilet, toilet or toilet (room) and perhaps just leave it occasionally as restroom or bathroom so that American readers feel familiar. I'll make a start with this now. EMsmile (talk) 12:38, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the point of toilet (room) is that that article is about the room in a private house. It can be linked to once from this article, but should not be used interchangeably.Carbon Caryatid (talk) 15:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, not sure. The article does not say that it only applies to private houses. I think it's perhaps a fairly generic term? E.g. could also apply to a hotel. EMsmile (talk) 15:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct that Toilet (room) does not only cover private houses; I forgot my example above, the tiny historic house museums that have to make do with one loo. But I don't think a hotel is a useful example: when most people think of facilities attached to a bedroom (en suite), they will imagine washing (shower or bath), whereas when they think of facilities in the public areas of a hotel (lobby or restaurant), again we are back to the standard multi-user public toilet. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 21:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We need to get our terminology straight - pun intended. Two questions to get us started:

1. What is the current best practice or most used terms in the

reliable sources

about this topic? From the perspectives of design and sanitation and engineering and town planning etc, as well as transgender activists (people coming at the article from a "Bathroom bill" perspective).

AND

2. What are the relevant Wikipedia policies for alternative names?

Carbon Caryatid (talk) 19:51, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If, as has been suggested above, this article should cover both types, we need to know what to call them. Or maybe there are more than two types to cover. As in the section immediately before this one, what are the terms currently used by the experts?

1. The single facility. Crucially, it isn't a single-user facility, as a parent can take a child, a disabled person can take an attendant, or (for the encyclopedic coverage of absolutely everything) two people can take each other: a ground-level mile high club.

2. The re-labelling of existing multi-cubicle public toilets, with no real change. For example at the Barbican Centre [1].

3. The design, from scratch, of multi-user facilities open to all.

Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:06, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Great stuff, I like your structured approach! I am not sure if there are separate names for those three types but I'll send off some e-mails and alert people to this talk page. Maybe we can get more inputs from experts which would be great. EMsmile (talk) 00:34, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Which terms would you prefer: cubicles vs. stalls (for the separation between toilets), privacy walls vs. screens (for the separation between urinals)?--Lamilli (talk) 09:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think privacy walls and screens could both be used here and there so that people get used to both terms. I would also suggest to use cubicles and stalls both (E.g. I made it "cubicles or stalls") in case this makes it clearer for people. However, I wonder if the term "cubicle" is the right term when the walls go all the way from ceiling to ground? For me that is more like a little "room" whereas cubicle is something without full walls, or? By the way, do we have any information on what is safer? I just wonder if a fully enclosed room has the risk that an attacker could commit a crime and nobody would hear it (after locking the victim in with them), whereas the walls that don't go to the ground could help other people to hear if a person is in trouble? I know we are not meant to discuss such a "content" question here on the talk page but I just wonder if there are publications out there that describe this aspect. If yes, we could include it also in the text as an issue. EMsmile (talk) 12:54, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A wall is more substantial than a screen. "Cubicle" and "stall" may be interchangeable, but I think the former is more widely used. Neither says anything about the height of the walls: when I walk into a multi-user facility, I don't think, "Oh, lots of little rooms," but "oh, three cubicles, I wonder how long I'll have to wait". #anecdata #idiolect #notRS As for safety, yes absolutely we need data to add to the article. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 22:05, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Bathroom bill article could be easily integrated here. It can be handled as a subsection Legislation/United States. However, potty parity might be a different matter. It has substantial overlap with our topic here, but still. You can achive potty parity by keeping sex-segregation and just increase facitlities in female restrooms (or reduce those in male ;-). On the other hand, if you have (male only) urinals in an unisex toilet, men have in principle more facilities available. The only advantage would be that women can now use those toilets which are available but unused by men. This is certainly and advantage. But in a strict sense, this is no parity. So I'd say these are separte topics.--Lamilli (talk) 09:25, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point about "potty parity" (I am still a bit undecided there). About bathroom bill I would do the merger in the other direction: We could cut out of here all the content that concerns legislation in the US and just leave a short paragraph (teaser) and then refer the readers to bathroom bill for more. Bathroom bill really needs a name change in that case to "Bathroom bills in the United States". EMsmile (talk) 12:57, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A merger proposal needs to follow proper procedure, which this doesn't. However, my preliminary thoughts: The Bathroom bill article is about the legislative attempts for transgender people to use the public toilet they feel comfortable with; in at least one case, the pupil concerned was offered use of a unisex (presumably disabled-accessible) toilet, and declined, saying this singled them out unfairly. There is no question that bathroom bills, as a proxy for transgender rights, have occupied a lot of psycho-political space in the USA over the past few years, and as such deserve their own article. If similar "bathroom bills" or "loo laws" (I just made up that phrase) can be found in other countries, add them to Bathroom bill; at the same time, cut most of Bathroom bill to create Bathrooms bills in the United States. Move material out of Unisex public toilet to whichever of those is most appropriate. Allow Unisex public toilet to summarise (e.g. repeat and adapt the lead of) the relevant articles. Focus Unisex public toilet on the design of the various types, advantages and disadvantages internationally, etc. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 22:18, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good points. I've just done a bit of work on the structure of bathroom bill which will allow it to accomodate legislation for a range of countries (we could decide later to create bathroom bills in the United States as a stand-alone article). I think it's a good move to focus the unisex toilet article mainly about unisex toilets and their designs, and not get side tracked with all that information about the history of sex segregation. To this end, should we move most of what is currently under history/background to bathroom bill, at least where it relates to legislation? At the moment, the history part mostly talks about the history of sex segregation, not so much about the history of unisex public toilets. However, it is all interwoven so it might not be so easy to delineate it. But we could try?EMsmile (talk) 01:42, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am starting a discussion here whether the title of this article should be changed. Here is a comment from one colleague: At PHLUSH we've stopped using the rather outdated term Unisex, which refers more to things (clothing, architecture, etc) than people and is found objectionable by folks in the LGBTQ community.  Portland public toilets are simply signed “All-User Restroom.”   Another colleague wrote to me "the term ‘unisex’ is not necessarily the best, it certainly isn’t one I’ve heard much recently in the UK/US context, and equally it was not used in the Waterlines paper I mentioned before (see here). I’m not sure which term is most understandable for those in developing countries. Other terms include: ‘gender-inclusive’, ‘gender-neutral’ and then you have extra options like ‘third-gender’ specific cubicles which fall out of this bracket. " - I have no opinion on this yet but we need to have this discussion, I think. Another consideration is: what term are laypersons most likely to put into the search field? We can have many redirects from alternative names of course. EMsmile (talk) 01:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for soliciting these comments, particularly when your friendly experts point to public and reliable sources. I was told recently not to refer to "disabled toilets" as that sounds as if the facility is not functioning properly; instead the term now is "accessible toilets", meaning wheelchair-accessible. (By the way, we don't have an article on Changing Places (campaign), the UK campaign since "2006 on behalf of the over 1/4 of a million people who cannot use standard accessible toilets" [2]. Something to keep an eye on.)

Likewise, I always understood "unisex toilet" to refer to the architecture, not the user, so I don't see a problem with it. The phrase doesn't mean "only to be used by unisex persons". (I don't know anyone - however

nonbinary -who says "I am unisex", though I'm sure all things are possible and there probably is one person somewhere.) Until there's a very good reason to use something else, I'm happy sticking with "Unisex public toilet". Yes, let's have as many redirects as we can think of. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 22:31, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

PS for ease of reference, I'll link to Wikipedia:Article titles and - in case of controversy - Wikipedia:Requested moves. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 22:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the subsection "Better use of available space", this strikes me as an odd statement, and is unsourced (in a paragraph in which practically every other claim is sourced): for women/girls, as opposed to men/boys, "sanitation is a far greater issue, often requiring more thorough hand washing". Is this a reference to the fact that women may use toilet facilities for changing menstrual sanitary products – in which case, isn't that already covered by the (sourced) reference to menstruation a couple of sentences on? Or is there some suggestion that urination for women is a messier business than for men, and requires more cleaning up afterwards? – which I'd have thought was a highly debatable assertion. From observation, I'd have said that women often are rather more fastidious than men, and do devote more care and therefore time to hand-washing etc, but that the reasons for that are mostly cultural, not biological. Eric Pode lives (talk) 21:30, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No comments. I'm deleting it. Eric Pode lives (talk) 20:40, 6 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] · [[Special:Contribs/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Good day,

I am Carter. I recently rewrote this piece and added citations to my work in it. Fair to say I was not aware of the need to chat about it. So here we are. My changes were substantial. I will put the different topics that concerned me within different headings. My goal was to correct the article, add balance to the article, and to erase duplication. So I apologize to those who felt I stepped beyond bounds. It truly was not my intent.

I research for a living, recently retired as a professor. I still do research and write. One of the areas in which I do research is LGBT-related history. From time to time, if I have something that I think is of importance, I file a brief mentioning that research to the court. I pay for that brief myself-out of my own pocket. I don't collaborate with others on its content. It's all on me. My purpose is to ensure that the court has a clear view of the facts based on scholarship in the field. And politically, I have been an independent for almost a decade.

I just finished an article on how bathrooms became separated by sex. It directly addresses the work of Kogan and Cavanagh (and was intended to do so). It is called "Sexism in the Bathroom Debates: How Bathrooms Really Became Separated By Sex." You can find it on the Social Science Research network here. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3311184 You have to get an account but it is free. You will find other scholarship there as well. ^[1]. The cite records how many hits are there so that people who are seeking tenure and promotion can get advancement. I am retired.I cannot control that feature and it had many hits prior to my adding it.

I rewrote that "origin" section of the piece accordingly. I invite your review. I had not finished the citations when the conflict issue was called to my attention. I am not sure now whether I should proceed or not proceed to finish it at this point. I tried to set the matter up as a controversy, even though my own view is that Kogan is mistaken. I tried to be balanced in the piece.

I can understand how people would think with such a widely circulated theory apparently embraced by the press, how can it be wrong? I am not the first raise questions on this issue. I see that the writers of this section, ignored those prior articles as well. Perhaps they did they not know about them? My article is much longer and well documented. Wikipedia should not ignore this controversy and allow biased content to be circulated. I see this page has been used for teaching. It needs to be accurate. I really don't care who edits it to make it balanced as long as it fairly describes the controversy and does not offer the view that Kogan and Cavanaugh are the final word as it does now.

All best,

Olliemae (talk) 18:34, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]