Talk:Battle of Donbas (2022)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
Source: Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by JBW (talk | contribs) at 14:19, 13 April 2023 (Reverting editing by Tbf69 while evading a block). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Battle of Donbas is over

Some could argue that the battle ended the day that the Ukrainians began the

2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive
. Just unclear about the result and how we would adjust the article.

Please discuss. Pinging some editors. @EkoGraf @Mr.User200 PilotSheng (talk) 20:02, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could be to early to declare the campaign over, some fighting is still being reported in Bakhmut and Soledar, regarding the Ukrainian Counter-offensive in general it's divided in Kherson and Kharkiv, plus some advances on Donbas from the forces that came from Kharkiv. The current version of the article is ok for me. We should wait some weeks, is posible that a Russian breakout near Bakhmut materialize. We should wait some weeks.Mr.User200 (talk) 20:32, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The scope of this article is a complete mess in general, and I agree that it really needs to be defined better. Are all operations in east Ukraine after April 2022 part of the "Battle of Donbas", despite big gaps between offensives? No one's been calling the campaign a "battle" in a non-figurative way since mid-2022 apart from Wikipedia.
I've always been for merging this into
Timeline of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, and actually has a meaning distinct from the wider campaign. HappyWith (talk) 17:58, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Arestovych is not Ukrainian MOD or Ukrainian Central Command

We need Reliable Sources for inclusion, please take into account too, that Presidential Advisor Arestovych is not the Ukrainian MOD or Ukrainian Central Command. Don't use url links to attempt to claim Ukrainian MOD have reported those numbers. Use only Primary and Secondary sources of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine for the content of the article. Mr.User200 (talk) 02:44, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

RFC in progress

There is an RFC in progress on

Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. HappyWith (talk) 21:40, 9 February 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Someone wrote that Syria is involved in the battle via mercenaries and the source he used to justify it LITERALLY SAYS OPPOSITE

Someone clearly didn't read the article they cited as a source, because the article claims the following: "Despite the mobilization efforts of the Damascus government and private partners, Russia’s goal to flood Ukraine with foreign fighters failed. U.S. Marine Corps General McKenzie confirmed that there has not been a flow of Syrian fighters up to this point."[1] The source does not say anywhere that Syrian mercenaries were involved in the fighting, it says that Moscow only tried and failed. According to that article, there are no Syrian mercenaries in Ukraine, and therefore Syria should be deleted from the "Belligerents" section, because this is an unsubstantiated claim, even disinformation. Dr. Ivan Kučera (talk) 15:34, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch! I already started an RFC at
Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine where editors are voting to remove Syria as a belligerent from all the articles related to the war. Hopefully this kind of thing can be gotten rid of. HappyWith (talk) 15:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The RFC has closed and the closer has said that Syria shouldn't be added at this time. As such, I have proceeded to remove Syria. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 22:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Syrian Mercenaries in Ukraine: Delusion or Reality?".

Requested move 23 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus not to move the article (closed by non-admin page mover) Megan B.... It’s all coming to me till the end of time 22:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

War in Donbas (2014-2022), per MOS:CONSISTENCY. I think this move would be good. How says everyone? Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 21:59, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

  • Delete article. This is exactly the same as Eastern Ukraine campaign right now. There is no need for this page. Or for the other maybe. Super Ψ Dro 22:05, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep current title. You have a fair point about the name consistency, but changing 'Battle' to 'War' can give the impression it is a separate conflict from the larger ukraine invasion, when it is now sub-conflict of a larger ground invasion. The war was subsumed by a larger invasion and donbas became a battle for the region, therefore this article is just a progression. The current title gets the job done. If it is not broken, do not fix it. I also disagree that this article is redundant or superfluous. The Eastern ukraine campaign page includes all of eastern ukraine, while this article covers the fighting in the Donbas specifically, in more detail. They are not equivalent in scope. Leave this article alone for now. RopeTricks (talk) 20:02, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Consistency is not warranted because this is not a conflict analogous to the other article’s subject, nor is it a continuation of the other. For eight years the Donbas War comprised the only active theatre of kinetic warfare, and could be considered a war/the war as such. The 2022 battle of the Donbas (sometimes considered two battles separated by a pause), is a major operation in a broader war. Changing to parallel naming would obscure the defining differences rather than clarifying anything.  —Michael Z. 11:15, 26 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Donbas campaign (2022–present). As several people have pointed out since this article's creation, this isn't a single "battle" but a series of offensives and battles in the region, i.e. a campaign, much like the larger eastern Ukraine campaign it is part of. Lightspecs (talk) 00:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per
    WP:SURPRISE - implies there is a different war when it's all part of the same war. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 12:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Oppose. Per Michael Z, It shouldn't be consistent because it's not analogous. That would be confusing. HappyWith (talk) 17:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 27 March 2023

Battle of Donbas (2022–present) → Donbas campaign – This isn't a single "battle" but a series of offensives and battles in the region, i.e. a campaign, a major operation in a broader war. Skovl (talk) 07:05, 27 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 17:26, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Yes, I agree. It’s is made up of dozens of offensives, battles and other smaller engagements, which I think more than qualifies it as a campaign. Tomissonneil (talk) 09:07, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Strictly speaking, the eastern campaign includes the beginning of the 2022 invasion chronologically, the Kharkiv oblast geographically, a major siege and Ukrainian counteroffensive in Kharkiv oblast in terms of operations, and changing Russian objectives in terms of strategy. The Battle of the Donbas is more restricted in scope, although it remains very large, having long ago become Russia’s main effort. I still think these are two different subjects, and the two respective articles should be retained, and pared down if there is too much overlap (at a glance, I don’t believe there is).  —Michael Z. 14:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could we say Russia ever tried to actually capture Kharkiv? They thought Chernihiv, Sumy and Kharkiv would fall quickly after the invasion, but weren't Russian soldiers there ultimately aimed at Kyiv? I believe operations east of Kharkiv city can be safely included within a Donbas-aimed campaign. Kupiansk was a logistics hub that also benefited Russian troops in Donbas, and from Izium Russians were supposed to either surround Donbas or attack Sloviansk (this is what I remember most Western analysists were saying at the time). Super Ψ Dro 09:06, 30 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete article this move will make this article 100% identical to Eastern Ukraine campaign. Operations that took place in Kharkiv Oblast were also aimed at encircling Donbas or just attacking Sloviansk eventually. Though the title is indeed better so I support it. Super Ψ Dro 17:55, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with you, but I think it would be best to just make a separate AfD/Merge request rather than just saying it should be deleted at every RM, as I don’t think a merge will be able to gather support without a well-formed proposal explaining the complete overlap. HappyWith (talk) 19:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that the name should be changed. The eastern ukraine campaign article details events from the start of the invasion, while this one only from 2022 April, so the two would not be identical. 188.143.117.183 (talk) 21:41, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose move, this would be much too vague, per IP 65.92.244.249. There have been other campaigns in the Donbas, and whatever noun we're using, we need to have a date to disambig. HappyWith (talk) 17:25, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose having 'battle' in the name does not automatically mean something refers to a single battle as long as RS refer to it as such; ie Battle of France, Battle of the Pacific, etc. Yeoutie (talk) 19:54, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Battle_of_Donbas_(2022)&oldid=1149643182"