Talk:Battle of Donbas (2022)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lightoil (talk | contribs) at 07:46, 7 September 2023 (→‎Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 July 2023: Edit request not done at this time. (Edit Request Tool)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 July 2023

The City of Bakhmut hasn't been captured completely. And also the battle isn't over yet. DitorWiki (talk) 11:45, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources :
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65657621 DitorWiki (talk) 02:54, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a

"change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xan747 (talk • contribs
) 17:19, July 14, 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xan747 (talk • contribs) 17:19, July 14, 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 July 2023

Russian forces Haven't captured Bakhmut. Please change the mistake as fast as possible.

Sources: https://www.kyivpost.com/post/19476&ved=2ahUKEwid3qz18pKAAxV5d2wGHc6TC6cQxfQBKAB6BAgFEAI&usg=AOvVaw1VBvifkOtKrd5kxMcx_kly

And

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65657621 DitorWiki (talk) 09:26, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
"change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 09:35, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
i have already provide you with reliable sources DitorWiki (talk) 14:04, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 July 2023

The Russian offensive (April 2022 - May 2023) section is wrong and is overlapping the Ukrainian Fall counteroffensives (September-November 2022). DitorWiki (talk) 04:10, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
"change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 13:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Russian offensive (April 2022 - May 2023) section is to be divided like the following.
Section is two divide into two parts.
First Russian offensive (April-August)
Ukrainian counteroffensive
(August - November)
Second Russian offensive (November 2022-June 2023. DitorWiki (talk) 15:57, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done for now: How to divide it? Where to add the new headers? Lightoil (talk) 07:46, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved - Request withdrawn by Nom. (non-admin closure) Cinderella157 (talk) 00:01, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We do not have an article with the name, for example, Battle of Donbas (2006). The Wikipedia article on the 2003–2011 armed conflict in Iraq is called the Iraq War, not the Iraq War (2003–2011), although the conflict is still ongoing. Parham wiki (talk) 20:10, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is absolutely not "unnecessary precision". Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:19, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Same for
      War in Donbas (2014–2022)
      . This is just a battle for a region. The War from 2014 to 2022 wasn’t just a battle, it was a war.
    WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment: Isn’t Battle for the Donbas (1919) exactly this? HappyWith (talk) 21:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Cinderella157: I lost it too. Close the discussion (I don't know how it closes). Thank you and everyone else. Parham wiki (talk) 23:42, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose not only is this article unnecessary for overlapping with already existing articles, now we also want to make its title confusing with other articles? I seriously doubt all of the readers are going to recognize the small different nuance in meaning between "Battle of Donbas" and "War in Donbas" and know which article is for what based in their titles. I also imagine many will see one of the two and believe that it covers the whole war since 2014. Also per the comment above there's a third article with a similar article. Temporal disambiguation is very necessary here. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:19, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 31 August 2023

Battle of Donbas (2022–present) → Battle of Donbas (2022)
– This article started out in a pretty reasonable state, after officials on both sides of the war announced a “Battle of Donbas” in spring-summer 2022. However, since then, the article has quietly, unreasonably ballooned in scope to cover every single thing that happens in the Donbas in the war from then on, despite there being zero sources that still call ongoing activities the “battle of (the) Donbas”, or the “battle for (the) Donbas” in a more than figurative way.

To the contrary, I will prove in this nomination that reliable sources actually consider the “battle” - or “offensive” or whatever you want to call it - to have ended in late summer 2022, at some point after Russia captured the twin cities Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk and before Ukraine started its twin counteroffensives in the autumn of that year.

There are not many sources to draw on here - mostly because the terminology “battle of Donbas” completely fell off in usage almost immediately after the announcements - but the ones that are available are pretty clear about the scope. AXIOS wrote in late August that the 2022 Kherson counteroffensive “likely marks the start of a third phase of the war, following Russia’s initial three-pronged assault and the grinding battle in the Donbas.”[1] The “battle in the donbas” is clearly considered to have ended as a “phase” of the war with the beginning of the counteroffensives. This is, in fact, the same grouping of events Wikipedia already uses to separate sections of the war at Russian invasion of Ukraine and Timeline of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and this very wiki article calls it the “second phase” already.

Military experts and commentators also use the terminology to describe a specific phase and offensive of the war which has since ended, rather than as all activity in Donbas since summer 2022. Rob Lee and Michael Kofman, writing for the Foreign Policy Research Institute in an article titled “How the Battle for the Donbas Shaped Ukraine’s Successes”, state: “Ukraine’s successes in Kherson and Kharkiv were largely a result of the losses it inflicted on the Russian military in the Battle for the Donbas in the spring and early summer.”[2] They describe the ending of the campaign, saying “Russia’s advances in the Donbas, from April to July, proved to be a pyrrhic victory, tactical successes at the expense of strategic vision. Russia expended valuable manpower and artillery ammunition, while Ukraine pursued a defense-in-depth strategy. By September, NATO arms deliveries had reduced Russia’s critical advantage in artillery and Moscow didn’t have sufficient forces or ammunition to hold the territory occupied, which set the stage for Ukraine’s successful offensives.”[2] The Institute for the Study of War also puts the ending roughly in Summer 2022, stating: “Russia lost the initiative in summer 2022 after its offensive in Donbas culminated.”[3]

These bounds are a bit rough and imprecise, I admit, but we are covering an ongoing war, and the specifics are going to be a little bit blurry. My tentative proposal is to place the end date immediately before the beginning of Ukraine’s 2022 counteroffensives, but this is something that editors can decide in further discussion threads. I think from the evidence I’ve showed, it is clear that the campaign is not ongoing and did indeed end in mid-2022, and so should be moved. I should also note: This proposal is formatted as an RM, but will also necessitate a significant downsizing and rewriting of the article, with all out-of-scope material either transferred to higher-scope articles like Eastern Ukraine campaign or deleted if it’s already covered in relevant places. There will also need to be a lot of links removed from pages that will now be out of the scope of the article. I think this is a manageable amount of refactoring. HappyWith (talk) 19:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Only a few RS who use "Battle of Donbas" say the battle is over. The current title violates
WP:OR violations not only in this article but in other articles. Parham wiki (talk) 11:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Comment. My general understanding is that the Russian Donbas offensive has made little or no progress in months and Russian forces have been forced to go to on the defensive. But the capture of the Donbas oblasts remains a top Russian objective and continues to influence Russian actions (e.g., devoting significant resources to holding Bakhmut, symbol of the only Russian “success” of 2023).  —Michael Z. 16:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Combat is still taking place in the Donbas now, yes - but fighting was also taking place before officials announced the "battle for the Donbas" had started in April 2022. It makes a lot more sense to have "Battle of Donbas" refer to that specific summer offensive, which was followed by the 2022 Kharkiv counteroffensive and later the abortive Russian winter campaign, and now the eastern sector of the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive. My argument in the RM is that most sources agree with my interpretation, using "Battle of Donbas" in a limited sense to refer to that specific offensive later than all fighting in Donbas since April '22. Fighting before and after the summer 2022 offensive can, and is covered in Eastern Ukraine campaign. HappyWith (talk) 16:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Russian 2022 winter campaign still aimed at taking the Donbas, including Bakhmut and Vuhledar. When I hear “battle of the Donbas” I think of this too. I believe it’s a synonym for Eastern Ukraine campaign, whether we choose to differentiate the two or not.  —Michael Z. 18:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is part of the eastern Ukraine campaign; whether it is a distinct part is another question (per Michael). It was marked by the Russian redeployment of troops from the northern areas and a patriotic war cry that was taken by the press but this has petered out in usage with no distinct end. We should certainly not suggest that it does have a distinct end. Like most of our articles in this area, it is constructed as an agglomeration of NEWSORG (or similar) bulletins and therefore substantially fails to be an encyclopedic article. If a concerted effort were made to bash this into shape, I suspect it would be very much reduced. Whether that would be sufficient to justify a stand-alone article or whether it should just be subsumed back into the eastern Ukraine campaign is a very reasonable question. The same might be said for the other articles that are "phases" of the overall campaign. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support change of scope. This would finally differentiate this article with
    Kyiv offensive (2022) (these last two should be merged) could cover the initial Russian blitzes of the first phase. Then the two 2022 counteroffensives could cover the third phase, maybe this thing [1] along with Battle of Bakhmut and Battle of Vuhledar the fourth, and the 2023 counteroffensive the fifth. Because current analysis on the war seems to divide it into five phases. We have a lot of overlapping articles right now. My only issue would be the title. "Battle of Donbas" is barely used and the use of 2022 in the title overlaps with the Russian offensives following Ukraine's counteroffensives. But it's better than keeping the article as is. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 10:25, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]

References

  1. ^ Lawler, David. "Ukraine launches counteroffensive to retake Russian-occupied Kherson".
  2. ^ a b "How the Battle for the Donbas Shaped Ukraine's Success".
  3. ^ "Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, December 4".
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