Talk:1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners

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The title and tone of this article may possibly be POV and unbalanced. Khodavand 02:26, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How? Please elaborate. What specifically is false.--Patchouli 12:24, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First, only the MKO (Peoples Mujahideen) are called "Monafegheen" by the regime. That label is only for them. Second, it seems to be only about their executions of MKO members, and not people from other groups. Also, the "massacre" in the article title is possibly POV as I already said. Is there a source for the title? Khodavand 23:24, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A search engine will yield over 260,000 results. It won't hurt to use it.--Patchouli 01:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with user Khodavand. For example, the article defines the so called 1988 massacre of Iranian prisoners as a "systematic slaughter of thousands of political prisoners across Iran by the Islamic Republic of Iran". Why is the word slaughter used instead of executed? The people that were executed were prisoner. Although their executions may not have been justified, it is for the reader to decide. Furthermore, I would take search engine results with a grain of salt (I can elaborate if necessary). I will change slaughter to execution if there are no objection. Agha Nader 03:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)Agha Nader[reply]

Execution is

WP:NPOV. I will change it as per discussions here.--Gerash77 22:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply

]

How many people were executed during this time? GutterMonkey 07:46, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I got rid of a bunch of POV OR. The "Backgrounds" section was removed because it was a biased, unsourced, & unnecessary section that basically retold the facts from the lead with an anti-IRI spin. The "Aftermath" section appeared to be simply some anti-IRI commentary, sourced to a book that is a collection of passages from Iranian blogs. That is not reliable.

Now, it is just the lead (which has plain information, no spin) and a "Response" section. I believe that a "Background" section can be reintroduced if it is informative, focused, and neutral. However, the lead shall suffice for now. My main deal is to have the "Response" section be expanded with significant, relevant, and reliable responses from notable parties. Please, no blogs or blatantly biased sites. The responses should be written neutrally and receive due weight. I'm thinking of groups like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, national governments, the UN, etc. In general, real groups. The Behnam 07:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We are Iran has a collection of blogs indeed, but in the case of numbers it was not quoting one. The background section could have used a reword but was complete removal of all that necessary? If you are going to expand it, feel free to revert me but it didn't have a POV tag so unless the info is completle nonsense I don't think you should remove it --Rayis 08:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't remove the numbers; they are still there (in my version), with two 'real' sources to back them up. To be on the safe side the blog-book should not be used. It does not soundly meet reliability requirements. Perhaps a better source can be afforded? As far as the "Backgrounds" section goes, I tried to find something to salvage but, after a good look, found it unacceptable. It was no-value-added, and the fact that it was rather POV-OR & of dubious accuracy left it detracting from the article. The stuff about the crackdown being a response to an MKO attack is the only part worth mentioning, and this is satisfied in the lead. A clear tie to the Iran-Iraq War (such as mention of Mersad) is fine, but a "Background" section is not needed for this; the information could easily be added to the lead without negative consequence. But it isn't even reliably established that this crackdown was in response to MKO attack; I left that (for now) simply because it seemed sensible enough to have a good source somewhere.

To prevent further damages, I am probably going to reinstate my version of the article since it was a careful removal of un-encyclopedic content, while your blind revert 'for the sake of talk' simply reintroduced the problematic version. Most of it was unsourced anyway, so I am justified even in that respect. Perhaps you should make a compelling case for putting certain questionable items back in, rather than leaving them in with a tag. There is no reason to favor the questionable, poorly/not-sourced version. Do you contest the neutrality of my version? I basically just removed random anti-IRI recap of the lead & similar commentary ('Aftermath'), so the edit did not make it more POV. A neutral version should be used to be on the safe side. Please explain what you think.

Yes, I do plan to expand it over time, though I encourage others to do so as well, just with strong & reliable sources. I don't like to be harsh with these things, but frankly, the article version before my edits wasn't acceptable at all for an encyclopedia; I stand by my edits. So, I will reinstate it, but if you really contest my version feel free to add the POV tag and we can work on it from there. Thanks. The Behnam 08:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moved to

If you can confirm the authenticity of the video it is an acceptable source. Otherwise, not reliable. Perhaps you can just find an official BBC link, or at least a transcript? The Behnam 05:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Abrahamian Ervand. Tortured Confessions. Berkeley, Cal.: University of California Press, 1999. 978-0-520-21866-6
• Afshari Reza. Human Rights in Iran. The Abuse of Cultural Relativism. 2001.
  ISBN 0-8122-3605-X
• Final Report on the situation of human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran by the Special Representative of the Commission on Human Rights, Mr. Reynaldo Galindo Pohl, pursuant to Commission resolution 1992/67 of 4 March 1992. Document number E/CN.4/1993/41 http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/Documents?OpenFrameset
• Cooper Roger. Death Plus Ten Years (Paperback). Harpercollins; New Ed edition (May 1995)
  ISBN 0006381030
• Rejali Darius. Torture and Modernity: Self, society and state in modern Iran. Westview Press1994.

I'll add it, thanks. The Behnam 21:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that it was there already. The Behnam 21:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lol who knows, I may have added it myself.. --Rayis 21:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason I'm having trouble finding the AI report on the matter. Perhaps I need to eat. Anyway, it should be included in the response section, along with other significant groups. If anyone can find it, it would be an excellent addition. Thanks. The Behnam 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm yeah. I don't know if we can find the original report from that year on their site, it depends on their archives I guess --Rayis 22:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I contacted Amnesty, and apparently it is available in a published title "IRAN violations of Human Rights 1987 - 1990 >>MDE 13/21/90 ISBN: 0 86210 188 3." --Rayis 11:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, it looks like I may be able to get them soon in email.. --Rayis 11:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Great. I'm going to look to see if HRW said anything about the incidents. The Behnam 19:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

HRW response added. The Behnam 21:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. I haven't heard from the Amnesty organiser who was gonna scan it yet although apparently it may be available in university libraries (I have seen the Amnesty year books so maybe next to them). Also I think lots of groups were included in the executions, especially the guerrilla type ones like Iranian People's Fedai Guerrillas [1] [2] --Rayis 21:35, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this unreliable source mentions an AI day in the first paragraph that may help us in our search [3]. The Behnam 21:37, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I found another item [4]. While it is possible to just use it as a ref, it may also be better to ref directly to the articles mentioned within. The Behnam 21:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I recieved the AI report in email, it is very comprehensive and very detailed. Sadly the collection of AI reports here does not have these. But interesting this report suggests that there were 900 reports of executions that year only for those with "criminal offenses"!! that's about a 100 times of all reported executions of last year in the world.. --Rayis 11:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a lot of executions. Anyway, just add the AI information and cite the title, publication date, and whatever else that is needed so that the reader can obtain it if he needs to. The Behnam 18:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think we should move the article to 1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners? --Rayis 00:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. They may have executed some 'normal' prisoners in 1988 but that is ain't what this here article refers to, so I support the move to a more accurate title. The Behnam 23:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Patchouli, who has since earned himself a permanent community ban, was closely involved with this article. Please make sure that the article closely adheres to the standards of NPOV acceptable here. Much thanks, Khodavand 11:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry it's being watched closely. However please do not revert blindly, --Rayis 12:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No Rayis ain't a Patchouli sock, and I know Patchouli socks. You need to give a specific content objection as Patchouli's former involvement alone is not grounds for a neutrality tag. I've been through this article quite a bit and I don't see it in need of anything except expansion. In a sense, I've already checked it for neutrality, but if you have a specific problem with the article, please bring it up here for discussion. And please don't make ill-considered accusations. Thanks. The Behnam 14:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, where are those accusations coming from? and based on what?! Keep your uncivil accusations to yourself, Khodavand (talk · contribs · count), I suggest you be careful about reverting user's edits based on your baseless accusations --Rayis 16:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the terrorist mention for MKO, as this is generally the convention in RS news sources. It is also important to context here, since there is a difference between killing a bunch of perceived terrorists and just killing a bunch of 'political' people. Let's not whitewash the group, as this presents a distorted view of the situation. The Behnam 17:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats exactly my point, the people who were killed were not all terrorists, they were members of political groups, MKO being one of them. Currently by restoring that version, it looks like all IR did was to kill "terrorists" --Rayis 18:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, the line right under mentions Communists and other progressive groups. I am just clarifying MKO's usual classification. There is no need to worry. The Behnam 19:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. Well I hope you are OK with the compromised version. I hope to expand on it soon --Rayis 19:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah that looks good. But about the 'it is claimed' part, doesn't that seem odd? I mean, it either happened after or it didn't. Of course, what is claimed is that there was a causal connection between them, so perhaps that needs to be clarified. I'll wing it. The Behnam 19:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look good? The Behnam 19:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I mean it's not too important until it is expanded fully. But I will add sources for that specific part, from what I remember from the Amnesty source, it actually said "It is claimed" (I don't remember what it said the source was) --Rayis 19:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. It would be nice to have some more detail about which other progressive groups were also affected. The Behnam 19:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not much familiar with the details of the event. But Khomeini's letter clearly mentions the position of PMOI in the Iran-Iraq war and their attack on Iranian borders in cooperation with Saddam Hossein. Then he wrote if those prisoners still support PMOI policy they need to be executed. Khomeini's letter only and only mentions PMOI members and no one else. To me, his letter is more or less fair. May be he could sentence them to jail for life instead. But obviously, as a leader of the state, he had no right to release those prisoners. Sina Kardar 16:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

These alleged executions involved few political prisoners if any. The title of this article really needs to be changed. Members of the previously Western backed

I'm not an expert on this topic, but the title of the article seems appropriate to me. Here is an excerpt from an Amnesty International report on this subject, "Report on Human Rights Violations in Iran, 1987 to 1990: The Massacre of 1988" (http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE13/021/1990/en/5c32759d-ee5e-11dd-9381-bdd29f83d3a8/mde130211990en.html)

"The political executions took place in many prisons in all parts of Iran, often far from where the armed incursion took place. Most of the executions were of political prisoners, including an unknown number of prisoners of conscience, who had already served a number of years in prison. They could have played no part in the armed incursion, and they were in no position to take part in spying or terrorist activities. Many of the dead had been tried and sentenced to prison terms during the early 1980s, many for non-violent offences such as distributing newspapers and leaflets, taking part in demonstrations or collecting funds for prisoners' families. Many of the dead had been students in their teens or early twenties at the time of their arrest. The majority of those killed were supporters of the PMOI, but hundreds of members and supporters of other political groups, including various factions of the PFOI, the Tudeh Party, the KDPI, Rah-e Kargar and others, were also among the execution victims." CordeliaNaismith (talk) 01:06, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with replies above. According to Abrahamian, members of the

Mojahedin

political prisoners who were left over (and these were the victims of the 1988 executions).

According to Abrahamian (Abrahamian, Ervand, History of Modern Iran, Columbia University Press, 2008, p.181)

"from June 1981 until June 1985, revolutionary courts executed more than 8000 opponents." These were mainly members of the

Mojahedin-e Khalq

, but also included

Fedayins and Kurds as well as Tudeh, National Front, and Shariatmadari supporters. ... Thus the toll taken among those who had participated in the revolution was far greater than that of royalists. This revolution — like others — had devoured its own children.

-

talk) 19:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply

]

  As a survivor of 1988 Massecare I believe:

What? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:252:D46:350:6C5B:8099:12E:9BB5 (talk) 06:06, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is a problem about the date on which the massacre began. The Robertson report says 29 July, following directly from the NLA offensive against Kermanshah. Moin's account is consistent with that date, but Abrahamian (and your article) says 19 July (without explanation). I prefer 29 July. 217.42.77.109 (talk) 16:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

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Currently the article states in the section Dealing with leftists: The questioners wanted to know if prisoners' fathers prayed, fasted, and read the Qur'an because the sons of devout men could not be called apostates. If they had not been raised in proper Muslim homes first and "exposed to true Islam," they could not be apostates. The first sentence seems to contradict the second, doesn't it? Or am I missing something? Gugganij (talk) 11:07, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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It should be noted that as of the current sourcing, it is a claim of human rights bodies, not a fact, that these killings were "extrajudicial". While they almost certainly lacked the due process expected of legal systems in most countries, the problem here is that the killings were supported by the Islamic government, where supported by the supreme leader, whose autocratic power is somewhat absolute, and were presided over by "commissions" that included members of the judiciary. It is likely for reasons that no reliable, secondary academic writing on the subject has baldy asserted that the killings were "extrajudicial", a term that strictly pertains to a given legal (here Islamic) context. It is possible that reliable, secondary academic sources exist to establish this, but these need to be found, cited and quoted before we start asserting in Wikivoice that these killings were "extrajudicial".

The claim that the executions were "extrajudicial", despite the involvement of the judiciary, is an extraordinary one and falls under

Iskandar323 (talk) 13:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Here are more sources that support that the killings were "extrajudicial"

• In the summer of 1988, during the premiership of Mir-Hussein Mousavi, thousands of opponents of the Islamic Republic were extrajudicially executed while in prison.[1]

• In a statement, the Justice for Victims of the 1988 Massacre in Iran welcomed Rehman's call, saying that a U.N. investigation into the extrajudicial executions was "long overdue".^[2]

Please stop deleting this from the article now. Also Raisi was mentioned first in the original text of the inforbox’s image, and there is no reason to change that. Raisi and Mostafa Pourmohammadi were part of the "Judges of Death" committee, and the accused of carrying out the executions were Islamic Republic officials, including Raisi. In the Trial of Hamid Nouri, there was a conviction about these massacres. I have now written this clearly in the infobox, so please also stop deleting all this information. You are also deleting information sourced to the Harvard Human Rights Journal and Iran Analysis Quarterly. None of this is disputed material. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:51, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the best sources that you can come up with for this are a paper by an Iranian expatriate published by a US-based foreign policy think tank (not academic) and a victim advocacy group called "Justice for Victims of the 1988 Massacre in Iran" then you prove my point that there are none.

Iskandar323 (talk) 12:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

You don’t think these two sources are reliable? should we ask at WP:RSN? I haven’t looked for more sources, but I can if you still have big doubts that the killings were not extrajudicial. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:39, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My thoughts (or doubts) don't come into it. We don't have multiple reliable sources stating as much, and that's a verifiability problem. And no, the above sources are not reliable. If the claim of 'extrajudiciality' was self-evident, we might expect one of the anchor sources, such as Abrahamian or Cohen, to say as much. That they don't suggests the claim is not one that the subject-matter experts feel comfortable asserting. A single human rights source (advocacy), a think thank (advocacy) and a victim group (extremely pointed advocacy) are totally inadequate. It is worrying if you cannot see this. In fact, the think tank source is actually worse than I originally thought - I had though that it was

Iskandar323 (talk) 17:16, 27 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

• None of those executed was accorded a public trail by an independent and impartial tribunal. Nor was any accorded legal counsel or the right to appeal the verdict. None was granted the 'right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted by him by constitution or by law".[3]

• Montazeri insisted that it was not out of love for the Mojahedin that he intervened, but out of concern for the reputation of religion and the revolution. He was not generally opposed to executing political opponents, notably if they had taken arms against the regime, but he was outraged at the unlawful killing of people who had often not done more than distribute tracts or shout slogans.^[4]

• It is all the more relevant as many of those alleged to have been involved in the 1988 enforced disappearances and extrajudicial executions hold or have held positions of power in Iran.^[5]

• Swedish prosecutors accuse Hamid Noury of participating in the extrajudicial executions of political prisoners who were affiliated with an armed Iranian opposition group^[6]

• Mousavi and his supporters insisting that he was unaware of the extrajudicial mass executions^[7]

Most books I read about this say similar things. If you can find books that say the killings were lawful, then maybe that's how you could prove your point. Fad Ariff (talk) 11:52, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The more academic sources seem to say something along the lines of the first bullet above - they point out the legal flaws in the proceedings. That material seems very similar to what Abrahamian says, and yes, that the usual legal framework was to some degree circumvented is evident. However, even the second bullet, which asserts that they were "unlawful" does not specify their "extrajudiciality", which requires that the killings occurred outside of the judiciary system altogether, without judges (and here, both judges and a legal framework were present). All "extrajudicial" killings are "unlawful", but not necessarily vice versa - the terms are interrelated, but not synonymous. "Unlawful" would be much easier to stand up as a term. The three sources that do use the specific word "extrajudicial" provide far less context. It is hard to say how sophisticated the third source is on the subject without further reading. The fourth source uses the word in the context of an accusation by the prosecution, so it is just an accusation in that one, and the fifth source is Radio Farda, which is (and I can't believe I have to say this) a radio service formed and funded by the US government clearly to vex the Iranian regime.

Iskandar323 (talk) 12:29, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

As to

Iskandar323 (talk) 12:30, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

You seem to be against using U.S. think tanks for some things, and in favor of using U.S. think tanks for other things, so that is contradicting. I think we should be using think tanks together with other sources (when such sources are available), but if they are not available (and the content is controversial) then I think it would be best to avoid them. In this particular case, "extrajudicial" is supported by enough additional sources that it can be kept. If you are not in agreement, we can confirm at WP:RSN. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:11, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

Iskandar323 (talk) 14:01, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@Iskandar323: I gave more sources than an "Israeli think tank". I don't agree with removing the Amnesty material from the lead. It is important material since it talks about the inhuman practices in the executions. Maybe we can rephrase it, but not remove it. Fad Ariff (talk) 11:53, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The lead shouldn't contain any single-source opinions or lengthy quotations - it's meant to be a brief summary.

Iskandar323 (talk) 12:16, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

So let's use all the other sources I provided and come up with something that represents all of them. I'm against whitewashing what the regime did to these prisoners, so please stop removing this information from the article until we can come up with a suitable compromise. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:01, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

Iskandar323 (talk) 13:03, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I will only reply about content. About the lead, if you don't agree with the article's original sourced version, then provide a compromise based on the other sources I provided. You are also removing much more than Amnesty's quote in the lead, so if you want to remove that well sourced material, you need to start by explaining why first. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:14, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]