Talk:Afrobeats

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Afrobeats has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: April 19, 2020. (Reviewed version).

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Hey

On niniola’s page in the artistry section the user also went on to add a citation to the claim that the style of music she does seems to be Afropiano. It is very crucial to note that this specific source that the user added of her music being afropiano is not a good source when tallking about niniola's sound because afropiano is a fusion of Amapiano and Afrobeats not directly house music as in the case of niniola’s Afrohouse this is a very common mistake a lot of sources make about the early beginnings of afropiano and Niniola's sound. Afropiano is recent it began from the year 2020, Niniolas Afrohouse predates that with her first release of “ibadi” in 2014. When that specific song of hers came out a lot of people in Nigeria often didn’t even call that song afrobeats even the ones that did call it afrobeats would often claim that it was different you can see this in the comment section in her Ibadi song. It was in this sound Niniola in her earlier days would often release a lot of her songs with this was before Amapiano reached Nigeria in 2020 in fact people who didn't know what to call her sound of music would call it "Niniola Type Beat".[2]

Amapiano is a very specific genre of music not just in terms of sound but in terms of its reach within Nigeria so if she was specifically and exclusively mixing

1. First, she wouldn't hide it (Nigerian artists are not one to hide where they get their inspirations from in terms of sound).

2. Secondly, she would go into detail in what made her and her producer to start mixing a South African genre of music.

3. Thirdly In most of her interviews in her tone she doesn’t talk about south African genres of music in a way that would constitute or imply that she is mixing a south African genre she only speaks about south africa as to regards of her song "Maradona" doing well in south Africa and meeting people there and the fact that South Africa is the only African country that is into house music hence why her song “Maradona” did well in the country.[3] Thats why while being interviewed she calls her style of music "her sound" if she was mixing a south african genre she would have talked about how south africa is the birth place of her sound.

"...outside Nigeria I am so feeling the South Africans, and the way they have accepted my sound."

It’s also important to note that afropiano have 3 key signifiers the first one is an afrobeat’s rhythm the second is a pitched piano chord and third a log drum percussive baseline both being from amapiano. Songs like “Mogbe” by asake “Monalisa” by lojay is a good example of this style of music. Ninola’s style is quite broad and is a direct combination of afrobeats with house hence why this style varies more in sound than afropiano.

Also, the user claimed that her songs have

Also the user said this "there is a green source stipulating that the genre was mistaken for afrobeats, UK funky and sometimes even other genres" although i have been on wikepedia since march i don't know what a green source is since am more strictly into writing please can you look into this please and thank you. Bernadine okoro (talk) 22:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I will review this when I have a bit of time but I suspect it may be useful asking for third-parties to intervene in this particular issue. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 17:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright thank you, i will get to that later Bernadine okoro (talk) 15:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bernadine okoro and @HarrySONofBARRY, "In terms of afropiano, the afrobeats melodies and rhythms but most importantly the high-pitched piano melodies make it related to Amapiano hence why It's Ama-piano and not Ama-log drums", there was never a reason on why it is called amapiano and not ama-log drum. Amapiano musicians (South Africans) did not use log drum until Mdu aka TRP introduced the sound to the genre. FYI, a piano does not make amapiano, the sound has been evolving ever since and now one of the biggest amapiano songs "Mnike" is not heavy on the piano sample, and some of the songs like "Maplankeng" and "Inhliziyo" by Mas Musiq don't even feature log drum. Another thing, afropiano is a blend of amapiano and afrobeats. dxneo (talk) 07:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was an article that talked about how piano was important to the genre to the point it either influenced or might have influenced the naming of the genre for the life of me i just spent a few hours looking for that article, and I can't find it but that's regardless to the point I was making. The crux of the matter is that what Niniola called afrohouse before popularization of amapoiano-influenced beats in Nigerian music had nothing to do with amapiano or South African afrohouse. Honestly, this whole section on "Afro-house variations, Niniola and Afropiano" on this talk page can be archived if the user wants the removal of Afro-house within the infobox, etc then so be it. Bernadine okoro (talk) 01:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@HarrySONofBARRY. Afro fusion can't be another /"other name" for afrobeat/s due to it being an entirely different genre, nevermind what appears not having any significant affiliation to afrobeat/s.

For instance:

• 24 August 2023 ; " Why I created afro-fusion genre – Burna Boy" , In addition, "Grammy-winning Nigerian singer, Damini Ogulu, aka Burna Boy, has claimed that he pioneered a new genre of music called afrofusion because he did not want to be boxed into the popular West African genre, afrobeats. In an interview with American media outlet, Complex, the self-styled “African Giant” said he does not believe in genres. Burna Boy said, “Afrofusion is a big melting pot of cultures and sounds. Afrofusion is not a box." [4]
• 1 February 2013; " Freshlyground – Refreshing music hailing from South Africa", In addition, "Cape Town – Their music is dubbed Afro-pop or Afro-fusion, it is original and incredibly enjoyable to listen to. The style combines certain elements of traditional South African music with blues, jazz and a spoonful of indie rock."

**Afro-fusion as a dance genre ; [5]

**Afro fusion as a cuisine ; "This chef visited 48 African countries to create a new ‘Afro-fusion’ cuisine" ( [6]). Qaqaamba (talk) 14:51, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both of these terms were properly sourced throughout the article. I elaborated here the last time it was reverted and nobody disputed it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Afrobeats/Archive_1#Afropop_/_Afrofusion both of these names are widely used, explicitly, in a variety of sources as alt names for afrobeats. I even re-added it with a compromise of a note that explained its wider usage unique from afrobeats! I will copy my previous comment for easy reading:

With the case of Afropop, it is also simultaneously true that Afropop is a term used often to specifically refer to Afrobeats (e.g, as a genre name). In much the same way "Afrotrap" both refers to Afroswing (an alternative name for the British genre), Afrotrap (a French genre), a generic name for African-produced trap music, afrobeats with trap influences, etc - so it isn't without precedent that a genre label can apply to distinct sounds. Hence, to answer your question, I don't believe that saying Afropop can = Afrobeats, also requires one to believe Afropop must ALWAYS = afrobeats, yet it is undoubtedly true that the genre is often called simply Afropop and therefore it's worth mentioning in the lede as an alternative name.

Some sources for this claim: ^[1] ("Burna Boy is one of the biggest stars associated with Afrobeats (also known as Afropop):"), ^[2] ("t's a source of some irritation that what he calls his "Afro pop" is termed "Afro beats" in the UK, when "what we do now sounds totally different", article from 2012 from when 'afrobeats' was not yet the main term used to describe this music), ^[3] ("with its constant genre-blending and reinvention, the most accurate term to describe the wave of music flowing out of Nigeria and Ghana is Afropop"), ^[4] ("afropop (or afrobeats as it’s mostly referred to)")

Now afrofusion is, in my opinion, significantly less debatable than afropop is. Afrofusion as a term has been used to describe various things (like afropop), but with regards to afrobeats is specifically gained popular usage as an alternative name for the genre.^[5].

Not mentioning either in the article that they are used as alternative names for the genre is leaving out important information. Perhaps a note after-the-fact to clarify they have other associations is worthwhile, but I don't agree with their removal.

Whether or not these names have OTHER, distinct, usages is not really relevant (beyond, of course, clarifying with a note). What's important is that a variety of sources use these terms specifically as alt names for Afrobeats.

Now, referring to afrofusion NOT as an alt name but rather, a subgenre, is a discussion that's been had before. If enough sources can be gathered that support that claim, then certainly Afrofusion can be rephrased. This was noted here previously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Afrobeats/Archive_1#Afrobeats by another user. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 20:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is that Afropop is not a genre. Afropop can't be solely used as another name for afrobeats as per reasons above. Afro fusion is a different genre which an apparent distinguished afrobeats artist has stipulated has no affiliation to afrobeats. Nevermind former sources stipulating that genre has no affiliation to Nigerian genres as well as a completely different description. Qaqaamba (talk) 20:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not you personally think Afropop is a genre, the above reliable sources refer to it as such (in reference to an alternative name for afrobeats). Purely off the back of these sources, it should be added to the article as an alternative name. How other people use it, in other contexts, with other meanings, does not take away from the fact that in a Nigerian, afrobeats context, is is often used (by multiple reliable sources) as an alternative name.

With afrofusion, I do believe there is room for further debate in light of it possibly being a subgenre (instead of just an alt name), but there are a great many, many sources that explicitly link it to afrobeats either as a subgenre or alt name. See https://web.archive.org/web/20231226235008/https://pitchfork.com/features/podcast/afrobeats-global-takeover/ as one example. You can't just remove information purely on the basis you disagree with the source....

Burna Boy completing rejecting the "afrobeats" moniker is related to the debate already discussed at Afrobeats#Name. Ultimately, if sources don't agree with him then they don't agree HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 21:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• "The Colombian singer’s trilingual “Waka Waka,” featuring Freshlyground — which served as the official FIFA song in 2010 for the World Cup that took place in South Africa — captured fans globally thanks to its irresistible joyful and upbeat style powered by an Afro-fusion and soca-influenced beat." - [7] (Billboard)
• "Their music is dubbed Afro-pop or Afro-fusion, it is original and incredibly enjoyable to listen to. The style combines certain elements of traditional South African music with blues, jazz and a spoonful of indie rock." - [8]
• "Burna Boy on creating afro fusion: “ I didn't want to be boxed in” - [9] (The Guardian (Nigeria)
• "Afro-fusion star Siphokazi chats music hiatus and new project in the pipeline" - [10] (TimesLIVE)
• "Cameroonian singer, Naomi Achu drops Afro-fusion single ‘Waiting All My Life’" - [11] (Vanguard)
• "Kenya, the vibrant melting pot of genres", "Two weeks ago, fans of afro-fusion and folk were treated to energetic performances from acts like Chief Matigari, Ayrosh, Ambasa Mandela, Kwame Rigii, and H_art the Band at the Folk Fusion event in Nairobi." - [12] (The Standard (Kenya)
• "LIVE! A Music Calendar: An Afro-Fusion Affair happens in Bentonville, Brick Fields plays weekend of shows around Northwest Arkansas" - [13] (WEHCO Media)

Qaqaamba (talk) 22:25, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

None of these have anything to do with how afrofusion is used in relation to afrobeats, and the article already covers how some artists use alternative names (such as Afrofusion) in order to avoid using Afrobeats. This is already covered in the article. Spamming sources about completely unrelated things does not actually help your point. We've already discussed how terms can have multiple usages, and how afrofusion relates to afrobeats. Its usage in Kenya is completely unrelated. At this point, you're just talking past me and we are also running in circles. I will refer simply wait for a third-party to enter the convo. Please don't archive this talk page until then, cheers. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 23:10, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The point of this discussion is to introduce or highlight different and new viewpoints or in this case, sources. Afro fusion genre appears to not predominantly historically or currently center around nor originate from afrobeats. Hence why it appears to be contradictory or controversial as "another name"/ "other name" especially in the infobox parameter. Qaqaamba (talk) 23:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We fundamentally disagree on the point that a single name can refer to multiple things. Its usage elsewhere is totally irrelevant. Sources, as displayed above, talk about it in relation to afrobeats. We need to therefore talk about what these sources suggest. You cannot say, "well these sources are wrong and these other sources are more important" and then just wipe the content. It is not contradictory - names get used for different things, and I've offered a compromise in attempt to find a middle ground (in both this and the case with Afrorave) that solves any confusion that might be had by readers, as well as opened up dialogue for possibility of placing Afrofusion elsewhere (e.g a subgenre?). None of this seems acceptable to you. There is no point debating further, let's wait for resolution from a third-party. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]