Talk:Anoplotherium

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet talk 14:09, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Georges Cuvier's reconstruction of Anoplotherium commune.
Georges Cuvier's reconstruction of Anoplotherium commune.
  • ... that in 1822, the Paleogene mammal Anoplotherium commune (pictured) was the first fossil species to be subjected to a brain cast study? Source: Paleoneurology of Artiodactyla, an Overview of the Evolution of the Artiodactyl Brain (pg. 2)
    • Reviewed:
    • Comment: Apostrophes around species name indicates italics.

5x expanded by PrimalMustelid (talk). Self-nominated at 02:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Anoplotherium; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No - Not exactly in the article.
QPQ: None required.

Overall: @PrimalMustelid: Good article, but I don't see exactly where it's stated that it's "one of the first" in the article (it's in the lead but I can't find it in the article itself).

@PrimalMustelid: While in the article, that makes the hook a lot less interesting for me. So i'd recommend a new hook to be proposed. Also, pings do not work unless you sign your comments with "~ ~ ~ ~" (no spaces). Onegreatjoke (talk) 15:33, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Onegreatjoke: Do you recommend that I stick to the historical aspects of Anoplotherium like in the previous article, or do you think I should focus on the paleobiological aspects of the genus (i.e. that A. latipes may have reached 3 m (9.8 ft) tall while standing bipedally?) PrimalMustelid (talk) 19:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@PrimalMustelid: Anything that's interesting will work. Onegreatjoke (talk) 00:54, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Onegreatjoke: How about this fun fact?: "...that in 1822, the Paleogene mammal Anoplotherium commune was the first fossil species to be subjected to a brain cast study?" Source: Paleoneurology of Artiodactyla, an Overview of the Evolution of the Artiodactyl Brain (pg. 2)
@Onegreatjoke: Forgot to sign my comment. PrimalMustelid (talk) 00:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@PrimalMustelid: that's a good idea for a hook, but I don't see it in the article. Can you share the quote that states this and if it isn't in the article could you add it in? Onegreatjoke (talk) 02:25, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Onegreatjoke: Asssuming you mean the research article, on the very first paragraph of the "Historical background," Maeva Orliac et. al. state, "It is worth noting that the first definition of the endocranial cast was provided by Cuvier (1822) after an observation based on a natural endocast of an artiodactyl, Anoplotherium commune, from Montmatre gypsum. He wrote: '... it was moulded in the cavity of the skull; and as this cavity itself in the living animal was moulded on the brain, the clay necessarily represents the true shape of the latter…' Like many other mammalian groups, the first descriptions of artiodactyl endocranial casts mainly date from the second half of the 19th century and are based on natural endocasts. Like many other mammalian groups, the first descriptions of artiodactyl endocranial casts mainly date from the second half of the 19th century and are based on natural endocasts. Among them are included those of European cainotheriids (Gratiolet 1858) and ruminants (Gaudry 1873), North American oreodontids (Leidy 1869; Bruce 1883), and North African archaeocete whales (Gervais 1871)." PrimalMustelid (talk) 03:35, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Onegreatjoke: Maybe the confusion is coming from the term "endocast," so I'll give another source for elaboration. In the thesis "Endocranial microtomographic study of marine reptiles (Plesiosauria and Mosasauroidea) from the Turonian (Late Cretaceous) of Morocco: palaeobiological and behavioral implications," the author wrote, "Thus, in 1804, Cuvier provided this first description of a natural endocast of Anoplotherium commune, an artiodactyl of the Late Palaeogene of France, from the gypsum quarries of Montmartre (Paris). The structure dorsally exposed in a broken skull provided an overview of the cerebral hemispheres (Fig. 3.1). Cuvier (1804) realized thus that casts of the brain cavity in fossil vertebrates could be informative concerning the external anatomy of the brain (Edinger, 1962)." PrimalMustelid (talk) 14:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@PrimalMustelid: Sorry for the confusion! I meant that I can't where it states this in the Wikipedia Article and not that I don't see it in the source. Onegreatjoke (talk) 19:40, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Onegreatjoke: Ah, that's alright, I previously left most of that information in the Research history of Anoplotherium page, but I have accordingly edited the 2nd paragraph of the "Significance in palaeontological history" subsection to make it clear that its endocast description by Cuvier was the first. PrimalMustelid (talk) 20:06, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I can approve this now. Onegreatjoke (talk) 20:12, 24 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prose size

@PrimalMustelid: I don't think I currently have the time to review this, but I like to leave a comment here about article size. For a genus article, this seems to be way to long (9785 words of readable prose). Please be aware of the huge disadvantages of large article sizes for readers (and also reviewers), and editors who need to maintain the article in the future. I recommend to drastically cut it down. With this I do not mean to remove sections; rather I suggest to present the existing information in a more concise way, while avoiding unnecessary detail, and just focusing on the main points you like to convey. I am aware that article size is not a GA criterion, but we have the criterion "it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)." For example, you are providing a list of foods of the alligatoroid Diplocynodon; such things are not pertinent to this article. This is just my opinion, but if you are interested in working on this issue and need help, let me know. Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, I've tried cutting down on the article slightly, so for now it's 9,618 words. However, I'm having relative difficulty in what else I should cut out or simplify, so I'd be interested in your further opinions. PrimalMustelid (talk) 14:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jens Lallensack I suppose I should tag you, so here. PrimalMustelid (talk) 18:24, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, let's pick one paragraph and discuss it in detail:

The form of the brain is naturally narrow and elongated. The parts of the cerebral hemisphere concerned with the sense of smell are well-developed as evident by the enlarged olfactory bulbs and other areas associated with the sense of smell and the small size of the neocortex. The lateral view of the endocast shows that the cerebellum and cerebrum are at high positions relative to the overall brain, considered a primitive trait compared to modern ungulates that have brain hemispheres located above the cerebellum. Palmer noticed that the brain was similar in general form, parts, and furrows to Orycteropus, which includes the modern aardvark (Orycteropus afer). The highly-developed cerebrum that enables a strong sense of smell from Anoplotherium is more similar in brain development to aardvarks than artiodactyls, therefore making it macrosmatic (derived in sense of smell). Additionally, the olfactory bulbs are thick, and the olfactory tubercles take the form of smooth circular elevations that are curved more backwards than the aardvark and are easily noticeable.[60] In both Anoplotherium and Diplobune, the rhinal fissure divides the brain hemisphere horizontally and equally in half. The cerebellar vermis of the cerebellum is divided almost equally by the primary fissure of cerebellum (or "fissura prima"). In another endocast for Anoplotherium, the olfactory bulbs compose 7.5% of the total volume of the brain, above average for olfactory bulbs of both extinct and extant artiodactyls.

  • Apart from length, the flow does not seem optimal. You first talk about the sense of smell, then about the position of the cerebellum and cerebrum, and then about smell again. Then you talk about the cerebellar vermis, and then about smell again. What we need is a clear structure, a red thread to guide the reader, discussing the stuff step by step. Maybe first start with the general shape, then discuss the olfactory functions.
  • You use many redundant "bloat" words that can be removed without problem. For example, instead of The form of the brain is naturally narrow and elongated, you can just say "The brain was narrow and elongated".
  • Then, you have redundancy in the text. For example: 1) as evident by the enlarged olfactory bulbs; 2) Additionally, the olfactory bulbs are thick; 3) the olfactory bulbs compose 7.5% of the total volume of the brain. You repeat essentially the same information three times! Just combine these, e.g. "The olfactory bulbs were large, making of 7.5% of the total volume of the brain in one specimen". You save many words.
  • You also have redundancy within single sentences. E.g.
    • The parts of the cerebral hemisphere concerned with the sense of smell are well-developed as evident by the enlarged olfactory bulbs and other areas associated with the sense of smell and the small size of the neocortex. – Note that in this single sentence, you have "concerned with the sense of smell" and "associated with the sense of smell". This is poor wording. Why not: "The sense of smell was well-developed, as indicated by the enlarged olfactory bulbs and the small size of the neocortex". In this suggestion, I removed "other areas associated with the sense of smell" because it is unspecific and does not say much to start with.
    • the olfactory bulbs compose 7.5% of the total volume of the brain, above average for olfactory bulbs – you can just remove the second instance of "olfactory bulbs".
  • Next, you have some detail that might not be very relevant to the reader. Always ask: Does the reader have to know this in order to understand the important key take-aways? Examples:
    • The lateral view of the endocast shows that (could be removed);
    • Palmer noticed that the brain was similar in general form, parts, and furrows to Orycteropus, which includes the modern aardvark (Orycteropus afer) (could be simplified to "Palmer noticed that the brain was similar to the modern aardvark (Orycteropus afer)" without loosing important information).
    • is more similar in brain development to aardvarks (remove "in brain development", I do not understand what that means anyways)
  • Not in this example paragraph, but elsewhere: When looking for unnecessary detail that does not help the reader to understand the main points, the first I would cut down are measurements. While some measurements are important, remember that this is data, not information from which a reader may learn anything. We don't need to (and should not) provide all those measurements provided in the papers. We should summarize the main findings of the paper in a comprehensible but concise way.

I hope this helps so far, and that it is clearer what I'm getting at! Let me know if you have any questions. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:44, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alrighty, I'll copy-edit the Description section based on your advices and will let you know when I'm finished then. PrimalMustelid (talk) 20:17, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Jens Lallensack Did some quick copy-editing down to 9,133 words (description and paaleobiology sections), not sure that I can simplify much more since the article depends heavily on comparative anatomy. What are your quick thoughts? PrimalMustelid (talk) 21:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That looks good, and definitely goes into the right direction (not only regarding prose size, but also regarding GA criterion 1 "well written"). Another advice I can give: Provide the most important information first. Example:
In terms of the tarsal bones, Anoplotherium, based on hind foot bone evidence from the National Museum of Natural History, France (GY 166, GY 162, GY 165) has a navicular bone, three cuneiform bones, and a cuboid bone. In A. commune, the digit II bone, ectocuneiform (outermost of the three cuneiform bones), and mesocuneiform (middle cuneiform bone), while present, are small, suggesting two fingers in its hind limbs similar to its front limbs.
You put emphasis here on quite unimportant information. Instead I suggest: The tarsus consists of the navicular, three cueniform bones, and a cuboid bone, as shown by specimens from the Natural History Museum in France. The foot probably consisted of two toes, as indicated by the relatively small outermost and middle cuneiform bones in A. commune.
Now you have the emphasis on the information that really matters. I would even remove the French museum stuff and the mention of "A. commune", I don't think that is needed. (also note that the term "finger" is only for the manus, and "toe" only for the pes; the general term is "digit"). Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done, I'll keep that in mind as I work on more articles in the near future. PrimalMustelid (talk) 23:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Great, I am glad that was helpful. Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:17, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to consider making requests of the
Guild of Copy Editors. I think it would be good for both your completed articles and yourself. Merry Christmas, SilverTiger12 (talk) 21:21, 25 December 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

GA Review

Passed.
talk) 06:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewing
This review is
transcluded from Talk:Anoplotherium/GA1
. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer:

talk · contribs) 06:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

Comments

The article appears fine; we'll discuss the specifics later today. The more you work with me, the quicker the process will be. I will return in about six to eight hours.

talk) 06:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

I have to go now, but I'll add more summaries later today.

talk) 12:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

  • Please replace the The fossil mammal genus was the 4th to be described with official taxonomic authority with The genus was the fourth to be described with official taxonomic authority in the lead
  • Please remove the word famous from the lead
  • Please replace Today, it has four known species, although A. pompeckji is similar to A. laurillardi and not as well-defined in distinction. with Today, there are four known species.
  • Change Although the specific causes are uncertain, Anoplotherium was likely unable to adapt to these major changes and succumbed to extinction, bringing the end of a mammal lineage with unique adaptations. to Although the specific causes are uncertain, Anoplotherium was likely unable to adapt to these major changes and succumbed to extinction.
  • Remove Of significance to the naturalist was that from Of significance to the naturalist was that the hemimandible (half a mandible) had three lower incisors instead of four incisors or none which he said characterized other "pachyderms".
  • Fix the sentence Cuvier designated the genus name Anoplotherium the same year, basing the etymology on an apparent lack of "offensive" arms and canines by which characterized it. to make it more readable; the problem arises from the end of the sentence.
  • Change Anoplotherium species were particular large to very large in the late Eocene to Anoplotherium species were particularly large in the late Eocene
  • In the Footprints section, please remove or replace the image with an image of their fossilized footprints. The image is also too similar to the one in Paleobiology
  • There's a lot of
    undue weight
    in the description section, please summarize each subsection without going into unnecessary detail.
    • Summarize The Anoplotheriidae is characterized in part by the lack of bony processes (or outgrowths of larger bones) on the skull. The skulls of anoplotheriids are low in proportion and resemble those of camelids, although with shorter muzzles.[56][46] The muzzle is also elongated and aligns well with the top of the cranium, which is a diagnostic feature of Anoplotherium.[43] The orbit of the skull is widely open from behind, resulting in shorter postorbital process projections of the frontal bone.[57][58] The paroccipital processes, or outgrowths within the side of the occipital bone, are large. There is also an apparent lack of lacrimal fossae within the lacrimal bone. to Anoplotheriidae have low-proportioned skulls with elongated muzzles, and a wide-open skull orbit. They lack bony processes, and lacrimal fossae. They have large paroccipital processes and shorter postorbital process projections of the lacrimal bone.
    • Summarize The skull of Anoplotherium is narrow and elongated. The postorbital bone is constricted, suggesting poor development of the frontal lobes of the brain. The dorsal (top) area of the cranium features robust sagittal plus nuchal crests,[b] the former of which emerges from the front of the two low postorbital ridges that are part of the frontal bone and crosses the entire brain-case in the form of a high ridge. The sagittal crest is high while the nuchal crest has complicated changes in elevation as a ridge that eventually becomes less pronounced. In the back of the skull is a nearly circular foramen magnum and large occipital condyles. Finally, the skull's underside reveals an elongated palate with large and flat glenoid (or hollow) surfaces of the squamosal bone and strong post-glenoid processes.[60] to The Anoplotherium skull is narrow and elongated, with a constricted postorbital bone indicating poor brain development. It features sagittal and nuchal crests, with the former emerging from low postorbital ridges. The back has a circular foramen magnum and large occipital condyles. The underside has an elongated palate with glenoid surfaces and strong post-glenoid processes.
    • Summarize The bones of the skull are highly robust, especially the spongy diploë bone with great structural development. The strength of the skull bones point towards massive temporal muscles for a strong body build. The sella turcica, which in anatomy hosts the pituitary gland, is shallow while the clinoid processes (anterior and posterior) are absent. The cranial fossa is pear-shaped and separated from the cerebellum by the cerebellar tentorium. The parietal bones appear to extend through the entire roof of the skull to the point where they overlap the frontal bone. The squamosal bone takes up a large amount of space over the side of the skull, extending from the mastoid part of the temporal bone.[60] The occipital bone is narrow, especially towards the occipital condyles. On the back of the skull (occipital region) are two small occipital buns for muscle attachment. Many cranial traits observed in Anoplotherium are also found in its close relative Diplobune.[61] to The skull's bones are robust, with the spongy diploë bone being the most robust. The skull's strength is attributed to massive temporal muscles. The skull has a shallow sella turcica, a pear-shaped cranial fossa, parietal bones, squamosal bones, narrow occipital bone, and two small occipital buns for muscle attachment. Many cranial traits found in Anaplotherium are also found in Diplobune.
  • Please remove Both were described by Georges Cuvier in 1807. from the image caption in the skeletons subsection.
  • Please change the image caption from Reconstructed skeleton of Cainotherium, a cainothere of the late Oligocene-middle Miocene. Cainotheres were recently determined to be close relatives of anoplotheres. to Reconstructed skeleton of Cainotherium.
  • Remove making them the 3rd and 4th fossil mammal genera with official taxonomic authorities, respectively from the image caption in Classification
  • The article is way too big; the subject does not deserve this much coverage. Consider moving some of the information into other articles. For now, I'm failing it under "focused" until it's fewer than 6,000 words.
  • The article uses a lot of
    WP:PRIMARY
    sources, which is not required. Statements should be cited by reliable secondary sources. While using primary sources is acceptable when providing clear facts, it cannot be used extensively, as you did. Instead, I advise substituting them with reliable secondary sources. I'm referring to Cuvier, Georges and related works.
  • You use a lot of sources before 1950, please see
    WP:AGE MATTERS
    and replace those sources with more recent and updated ones. You don't have to do this for all of them, at least replace 5 citations.
  • Images seem okay
  • Earwig's Copyvio Detector found no copyright infringement, which is good.
  • Per the third opinion of @
    talk) 06:50, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply
    ]

Review against criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (
    lists
    )    :
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (
    reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism
    ):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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