Talk:Attacks by Islamic extremists in Bangladesh
![]() | Faisal Abedin Deepan was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 10 November 2019 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Attacks by Islamic extremists in Bangladesh. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | Washiqur Rahman Babu was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 29 April 2015 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Attacks by Islamic extremists in Bangladesh. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
![]() | A fact from Attacks by Islamic extremists in Bangladesh appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 28 June 2015 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of History of Bangladesh after independence with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | The contents of the Kunio Hoshi page were merged into Attacks by Islamic extremists in Bangladesh on 03 August 2016. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
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Proposed merge with Asif Mohiuddin (closed)
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The following is an archived debatedebate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Almost totality of contents in this article is about attack and discrimination on the Subject; which can very well be covered in the target page. nafSadh did say 17:48, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Proposed merge with Washiqur Rahman Babu
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The article
- Support Washiqur Rahman had no notability before his death.talk) 20:01, 20 April 2015 (UTC)]
- Support- Per Aronzak. - Arr4 (talk) 20:17, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Affected people
Let us keep them alphabetically sorted, rather than chronological; as people may be victimized more than once. ~ nafSadh did say 21:42, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Name and focus of article
There has been some disagreement over whether this article should be named "Attacks on atheists in Bangladesh" or "Attacks on secularists in Bangladesh".
What I have learned from a thorough reading of the sources for both this article and the Asif Mohiuddin article is that this is a complicated issue with many different aspects. Certainly, it appears that most of the writers or bloggers murdered so far in this campaign have been self-declared atheists - though not, apparently, all, which alone would be sufficient reason to choose "secularists" over "atheists". But I think the bottom line with regard to this issue comes from the "free thinking" mukto-mona website itself - whose bloggers have been the target of some of these attacks - which has summarized the situation as follows:
- In the aftermath of a popular protest in February and March 2013 known as Shahbag Movement, which was organized by bloggers and cyber writers, a section of Islamists have waged a disinformation campaign to label the bloggers ‘atheists’. The government is now trying to appease these Islamists.[1] (my emphasis).
Similarly, USA Today reported:
- The massive rally in Dhaka took place amid heightened security in the capital and elsewhere in Bangladesh after Hifazat-e-Islam members targeted bloggers who they say are atheists. It also took place despite a daylong shutdown across the Muslim-majority country that was enforced by about 25 liberal and secular groups to denounce the rally. The bloggers, who deny they are atheists, are seeking capital punishment for those found guilty of war crimes during the nation's 1971 independence war against Pakistan.[2] (my emphasis).
The chief goals of the secularist bloggers in Bangladesh are to encourage strict separation between religion and state in Bangladesh, and to see that the leaders of the Muslim fundamentalist party Jamaat-e-Islami implicated in war crimes are appropriately punished - some want the party outlawed altogether. For their part, the Islamists are seeking to discredit the secularists by labelling them "atheists" and "defamers of Islam" - charges which are bound to stir up popular sentiment against them in Muslim-majority Bangladesh. By employing the term "atheists" in the title then, it appears that Wikipedia would in effect be adopting the terminology of the fundamentalists and thus furthering their "disinformation campaign". Gatoclass (talk) 10:34, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support move I had my changes reverted. talk) 13:40, 14 May 2015 (UTC)]
- Support move per the arguments listed above by Gatoclass. --Lambiam 21:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Comment By definition atheist is ]
- Oppose The focus of this article, at inception, as intended, and so far as it is, is to discuss about attacks on atheists in Bangladesh. This is different from Secularism in Bangladesh. The argument given in the start of this discussion fails to provide a rationale for the move. It is very clear that these attacks are on atheists, either self-declared or labeled. Indeed, these attacks on atheists is a threat for secularism. But these are not attacks on secularists. Secularists include people from many beliefs. This subject would be more analogous to attacks of Jews or attacks on Hindus, than to attacks on Secularists. Secularism is a policy (to not discriminate) while atheism is about religion (to not believe). Anyway, do an proper RM if you want to move. --nafSadh did say 22:09, 14 May 2015 (UTC)]
- Your position is part of why this article is not on the front page on ITN or DYK - see Reporters without Borders[3] and the Committee to Protect Journalists[4] condemned the imprisonment of bloggers and the climate of fear for journalists. - Note that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the Committee to Protect Journalists and Reporters Without Borders have no declared interest in criticism of religion or atheism - only that government restrictions on free speech should not create a chilling effect for journalists. Wikipedia is written from an international perspective - and the article criticism of religion does not focus on people in Bangladesh - and Bangladeshi atheists are not mentioned on Criticism of Islam unlike, say, Ehsan Jami, Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, meaning that Bangladeshi atheists do not have a high profile internationally - but what is internationally significant is how human rights groups have expressed concern at stifling political speech.
- I'll propose it for RM. talk) 06:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)]
- Your position is part of why this article is not on the front page on ITN or DYK - see
- refs
- ^ "Bangladesh: Crackdown on Bloggers, Editors Escalates". Human Rights Watch. 15 April 2013. "the government is abandoning any serious claim that it is committed to free speech," said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch."
- ^ "Bangladesh: Further information: Detained editor alleges torture". Amnesty International. 17 April 2013.
Blogger Asif Mohiudeen, arrested on 3 April for allegedly posting blasphemous comments online, remains in detention and at risk of torture
- ^ "Call for detained blogger's immediate release". Reporters without Borders. 11 April 2013.
Reporters Without Borders condemns the baseless judicial proceedings brought against the detained blogger Asif Mohiuddin, who could be tried and convicted on a charge of blasphemy and "hurting religious sentiments" at his next hearing
- ^ "Attacks on the Press – Bangladesh". Committee to Protect Journalists. Feb 2014.
Requested move 15 May 2015
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston (talk) 16:40, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support. Per my comment above. Philg88 ♦talk 10:03, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support – see also above. --Lambiam 22:34, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Support - see my post above. Also, I summarized the sources at my sandbox page, here. Although there is some support in the sources for the claim that these are attacks on atheists, specifically, I think taking them collectively, it appears that this is a battle being waged between secularists on the one hand, who want a secular state and punishment for Jamaat-e-Islaami leaders, and Islamists on the other, who want an Islamic state and who are labelling their opponents as "atheists" in order to delegitimize the secularist cause. Gatoclass (talk) 04:34, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Rewrite and expansion of opening sections
I have done a rewrite and expansion of the intro and background sections of the article to help clarify the political context in which these attacks have occurred. This is the first step in preparing the article for presentation at DYK. I intend to be making some more additions to other sections over the next few days before requesting a new review at DYK. Gatoclass (talk) 10:32, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
I have requested a new review at DYK now, so hopefully this article will be promoted soon. I would encourage other users to try and avoid making major changes until the article has been featured as this may hold up promotion again. Gatoclass (talk) 12:53, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposed merge with Asif Mohiuddin
Article can entirely be covered with this page.
Title change
Many of the attacks are not only targeting seculars, but non-muslims as well. Actually, the attacks aren't only targeting non-muslims, but people who do not follow the ideals that ISIS's members follow. — Preceding
Link to Wiktionary
Some time ago, I delinked the word "grisly", giving a clear reason:
A wiktionary link for the word grisly was removed with a statement that common English words should not have such links, and subsequent discussion on the user's page suggested that this approach has something to do with policies about External Links. I believe it is good practice to link such words, which (one hopes) are not part of everyday English, from a page such as this one, about a country whose official language is not English. I have restored the link. The mention of
- Respectfully, talk) 03:26, 9 June 2016 (UTC)]
Third Opinion
In my opinion, I disagree with the linking of the word to Wiktionary, because, if the word isn't obvious, it is better to use more easily understood words than to provide a dictionary definition. Remove the link and use other words. That is my third opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:36, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
- Other words such as? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 01:18, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
- Common sense might help in this situation, Sminthopsis84. You have given no sensible reason why the word "grisly" ought to be linked (there is no reason to suppose that that one word is going to be more of a problem for non-English speakers than any other English word), and of course no valid reason at all why the lead should use that kind of sensational language, which isn't appropriate to an encyclopedia. talk) 21:48, 12 November 2016 (UTC)]
- Common sense might help in this situation, Sminthopsis84. You have given no sensible reason why the word "grisly" ought to be linked (there is no reason to suppose that that one word is going to be more of a problem for non-English speakers than any other English word), and of course no valid reason at all why the lead should use that kind of sensational language, which isn't appropriate to an encyclopedia.
Requested move 8 June 2016
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Moved as clear consensus has been established/uncontested. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Music1201 talk 04:40, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
- I favor the first option, renaming this page. With the second option, I think that Islamic extremism in Bangladesh could grow to be unmanageable. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:17, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
- Support this proposal, rename to Attacks by Islamic extremists in Bangladesh. Considering the new victims it should be done soon.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 13:10, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
- Support: I would advocate two separate articles overall. DaltonCastle (talk) 02:45, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Grisly
- Thank you for finally moving away from personal insults and removing the word entirely. That edit brings the page somewhat closer to being understandable by likely readers, namely non-native English speakers and students. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:17, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Requested move 20 February 2022
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Adumbrativus (talk) 19:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
Attacks by Islamic extremists in Bangladesh → Attacks by Islamist extremists in Bangladesh – The use of the term "Islamic" is inappropriate as the extremists who are behind these attacks are not Islamic in any sense, they violate the basic tenets of Islam. It is more accurate to state that these extremists use perversions of Islam to justify their violence. Therefore, it is more accurate in my opinion to describe them as being "Islamist extremists" as opposed to "Islamic extremists". AMomen88 (talk) 16:19, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose as per ]
- Oppose. "Islamist" is a noun, not an adjective. "Islamists" are "Islamic extremists". Rreagan007 (talk) 01:20, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose. Sounds like a No true Scotsman argument. Islamic is the correct grammatical wording.Vinegarymass911 (talk) 07:13, 22 February 2022 (UTC)