Talk:Blind Man's Zoo

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Good articleBlind Man's Zoo has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 13, 2020Good article nomineeNot listed
January 12, 2021Good article nomineeListed
Current status: Good article

Each song is a reference to a hot-topic political issue

Please elaborate. A hot political topic in 1989 is not readily discernable from a title like "Headstrong." --

Fantailfan 23:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply
]

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'On the week ending' / chart performance section

just a suggestion- wording in the chart performance section with the phrase 'on the week ending' is awkward- it would make more sense as a group of charts, similar to this one. alex! (talk) 19:04, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

my bad- i meant that having both the chart performance section and the charts section is kind of redundant, i think it might be easier to read if the information from the chart performance section was added to the charts section, maybe as a separate week-based chart? alex! (talk) 19:07, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 05:40, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Good Article
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3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4.
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Good Article criteria. Criteria marked
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On first glance, this article looks alright and does have a number of unsourced claims but they are not sentences plus they are not any citation failed tags, so this does not get quick failed for sure! --K. Peake 05:40, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and lead

  • Recording date is unsourced
    • George Ho You should 100% not be doing this anywhere in the article since that could lead to a failure under the criteria; either remove the info, add citation(s) or change it by using other citations. --K. Peake 20:20, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eliminated recording dates and replaced unsourced genre with one from Allmusic. --George Ho (talk) 21:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • George Ho No, you do not use the AllMusic sidebar as a source; also, the release date is in prose so does not need a ref in the infobox. --K. Peake 10:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eliminated "genre" parameter if AllMusic sidebar from the webpage can't be used. --George Ho (talk) 00:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Studio should use the separate parameter in the infobox
  • Remove the venue parameter as that is for live recordings
  • Separate the genres by using bullet points, plus they are unsourced
  • Changed to simple bullet format. --George Ho (talk) 21:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • See one of my above comments made at the same time as this. George Ho (talk) 00:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you sure the release months of the second two singles are unknown?
    • Will find reliable sources verifying the months of the release dates soon. George Ho (talk) 19:43, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Blind Man's Zoo, which was released in 1989, is the fourth studio album to be recorded by the American pop group 10,000 Maniacs." → "Blind Man's Zoo is the fourth studio album by American alternative rock band 10,000 Maniacs. It was released on May 16, 1989, through Elektra Records." with the appropriate wikilinks
  • "current events that occurred during and before the production of the album." → "current events, which occurred during and before the production."
  • ""Trouble Me", the first track from the album to be released as a single, was" → "The track "Trouble Me" was"
  • "as dedication to the lead singer Natalie Merchant's father;" → "as a dedication to the father of the band's lead singer Natalie Merchant."
  • Start new para after this with ""Trouble Me" was released as the lead single from Blind Man's Zoo in May 1989, charting in..." then adding the two countries mentioned
  • Remove "and became a minor hit" since the description given with the two countries is enough
  • ""Eat for Two", a song about teenage pregnancy, also" → ""Eat for Two" and "You Happy Puppet" were released as the second and third singles, respectively..." with mention of the release dates if you can find them and chart performance of the songs; maybe name countries?
    • I don't think "You Happy Puppet" charted, even when released, unless I overlooked. I wrote another sentence about "Trouble Me" after the suggested sentence.
  • "The album had a mixed reception," → "The album received mixed to positive reviews from music critics," with the appropriate target since this is more accurate and add what was praised/criticized in this sentence
    • I made some brief highlights about the album, but I've not yet inserted such words as "issues" or "current events of that time". --George Ho (talk) 19:43, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and reached No. 13 in the
    Billboard Top 200 chart and No. 18 in the UK Albums Chart. → "It reached number 13 on the US Billboard 200 and number 18 on the UK Albums Chart
    ." with the target

Production and songs

  • Retitle to Themes and lyrics
  • The first two paragraphs of this should be in a different section titled Background and development, which will come before the retitled one in this order
  • "Members of the band 10,000 Maniacs were, at the time of the album's release, singer-songwriter" → "At the time of Blind Man's Zoo being released, the members of 10,000 Maniacs were; American singer-songwriter"
  •  Done without the proposed semicolon, which to me would break up clauses. --George Ho (talk) 22:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • [1] should only be invoked at the end of the paragraph since it backs up every single sentence of this one
  • "Christian Burial Music; followed by an LP titled The Wishing Chair after signing contract" → "Christian Burial Music. The releases were followed by 10,000 Maniac's second studio album The Wishing Chair, after they signed a contract"
  • "In My Tribe, released in July 1987, became modestly successful," → "In My Tribe was released in July 1987 and became modestly successful,"
  • "was recorded in" → "was recorded at"
  • "The ballad "Trouble Me" (track four), the album's first track to be released as a single, was co-written" → "The ballad "Trouble Me", which is the fourth track, was written" with the target since the single info is irrelevant for this area; I will tell you where to place it instead though
  • George Ho Even though you have since changed part of this sentence, some of the prose I requested for it like not putting (track four) are yet to be fixed; I have noticed at other points in the article, so please make sure you are looking at everything properly. --K. Peake 20:27, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dennis Drew and Natalie Merchant for Merchant's father," → "Drew and Merchant for the latter's father,"
  • "provided the background vocals" → "provides background vocals"
  • "Other songs on the album" → "Numerous songs on Blind Man's Zoo
  • "who is five-months pregnant." → "that is five-months pregnant."
  • I think "who" is more suitable to a person (who is referred using one of pronouns) than "that". George Ho (talk) 22:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "did not intend the song" → "did not intend for the song"
  • Target anti-abortion to
    Anti-abortion movement
  • "Rob Buck played the guitar" → "Buck played the guitar"
  • "the song; Jerome Augustyniak, percussion." → "the song, while percussion was performed by Augustyniak."
  • Remove the singles sentence from here
  • "The second track, "Please Forgive Us"," → "The album's second track, "Please Forgive Us"," and this belongs in the above para instead
  • [4] should solely be at the end of the sentence before [7]
  • [1] should solely be at the end of the sentence before [2]
  • "The seventh track "Poison in the Well" concerns" → "The seventh track, "Poison in the Well", concerns"
  • [1] should solely be at the end of the sentence before [4]
  • "is about the working class." → "is about the working class, centering around the plight of them."
  • "The tenth track "Hateful Hate" concerns" → ""Hateful Hate", the tenth track of Blind Man's Zoo, concerns"
  • "and racial tensions" → "as well as racial tensions"
  • "The final track "Jubilee" is" → "The final track, "Jubilee", is"
  • [3] should solely be at the end of the sentence before [7]
  • "and concerns a racist" → "and is about a racist"
  • "a dance hall in which he had" → "a dance hall, in which he had"
  • The music videos para should not be in this section
  • "Music videos of "Eat for Two," "Trouble Me," "You Happy Puppet," "Dust Bowl,"" → "Music videos for "Eat for Two", "Trouble Me", "You Happy Puppet", "Dust Bowl"," with the wikilink
  • "were released in a" → "were included on the"
  • Target VHS album to
    MOS:LINK2SECT
  • [8] should solely be at the end of the sentence
  • The ref doesn't mention the re-release. I'll find secondary sources to back up the re-release. George Ho (talk) 22:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add ref(s) to back up the re-release info
  • If the primary source isn't sufficient enough, I'll try to find other sources then. --George Ho (talk) 22:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "bonus music videos from the band's" → "bonus videos from the band's 1993"
  • "in which the band" → "during which they"

Release and promotion

  • Create this section directly after Themes and lyrics, starting a sentence stating the release date of the album
  • Added release date, which is not exact. Using AllMusic's early 2000s book. --George Ho (talk) 00:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The
    oops 16:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • The singles info from the previous sections belongs here, as does the music videos info and add more if you can like the proper release dates
  • Still make the prose changes I suggested for the content proposed to be moved, though I may suggest further changes after you have created this section
  • After checking the DVD re-release's tracklist (via Amazon), I eliminated one unverifiable clause and rewrote the other clause as independent sentence. I can't be too sure whether an inline citation or a secondary source is needed when the live album MTV Unplugged is already used as a source. --George Ho (talk) 00:51, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • George Ho No, you need to cite a source that states the track list of the live album. --K. Peake 20:24, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reception

  • Retitle to Critical reception
  • Refs in the ratings template should be invoked after the scores instead of the sources
  • Add "Blind Man's Zoo was met with mixed to positive reviews from music critics" as the opening sentence with the target
  • "said the track "Trouble Me" is "the most uplifting"" → "said "Trouble Me" is "the most uplifting track"" if that is what the source directly says; elsewise, put [track]
  • Turns out that Natalie Merchant called "Trouble Me" 'uplifting', so I moved her quote to "Themes and lyrics" section, splitting off from DeCurtis. --George Ho (talk) 01:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "called the album the band's" → "called the album 10,000 Maniac's"
  • "Spin journalist Jonathan Van Meter considered" → "Spin journalist, Jonathan Van Meter considered"
  • Added comma after "journalist" and "Meter". --George Ho (talk) 01:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rob Buck's guitar performance" → "Buck's guitar performance"
  • "also called the "Jubilee"" → "further called "Jubilee""
  • Remove wikilink on In My Tribe
  • "[the album] ultimately" → "[Blind Man's Zoo] ultimately"
  • For this review, don't have the star rating written out in prose and instead quote the review here
  • Found one or two quotes from the review. --George Ho (talk) 01:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do the same for the following Rolling Stone review and the only Robert Christgau in this article
  • Found one quote from the RS review. The same couldn't be said for the latter, so removed it from prose. George Ho (talk) 01:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Another Rolling Stone reviewer J.D. Considine rated it three out of five and wrote that" → "J.D. Considine, reviewing for the same publication, wrote that"
  • The certifications info belongs in Commercial performance instead
  • "was certified Gold (500,000 units) on July 11, 1989 and then Platinum (1,000,000 units)" → "was certified gold for selling 500,000 units in the US on July 11, 1989 and then platinum for sales of 1,000,000 units in the country"
  • [14] should solely be at the end of the sentence before [15] and should use a refname from the cert table
  • "it the band's fourth album to be certified Platinum." → "it 10,000 Maniac's fourth album to achieve the certification."

Chart performance

  • Retitle to Commercial performance
  • "In the United States, Blind Man's Zoo reached number 13 in the
    Billboard Top 200 chart" → "In the US, Blind Man's Zoo reached number 13 on the Billboard 200
    "
  • [16] is the correct ref but this should be using a refname from the chart table and place solely at the end of the sentence before [17]
  • Add the RIAA certification directly after this
  • "at number 18 in" → "at number 18 on"
  • [18] should solely be at the end of the sentence before [19]
  • Write about the BPI certification for the following sentence
  • Found the BPI website and the page verifying the certification. --George Ho (talk) 05:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the Billboard charts," → "On the US charts,"
  • "number 20 in the" → "number 20 at the"
  • Target should be solely on Mainstream Rock
  • "number three in the" → "number 3 on the" per
    MOS:NUM
  • Target should be solely on Modern Rock Tracks
  • "and number seven in the" → "and number 7 on the"
  • Target should be solely on Adult Contemporary
  • "reached number 77 in the" → "reached number 77 on the"
  • [18] should solely be at the end of the sentence before [24]
  • The last para should be part of the second instead
  • "reached number 12 in" → "reached number 12 on"
  • [18][21] should solely be at the end of the sentence before [25]

Track listing

  • This should be laid out with the template that is usually used for track listings, though still keep the sides separated
  • The writers note is pointless since more than five had multiple writers and when this is in the template, list the writer(s) for every song
  • A source is required for the credits

Personnel

  • A source is required here
  • Use the div col template for separation
  • Any specific order here?

Charts

  • Remove album header
  • See
    MOS:TABLECAPTION
  • This should be cited as a normal chart table with the chart history templates; this can be used for citing the US refname I referenced in this review
  • Remove the singles charts

Certifications

  • Cite as a normal certifications table; see Template:Certification Table Entry if you are unsure how to
  • See MOS:TABLECAPTION
  • Add the UK certification by BPI
  • The gold and platinum certifications are not both needed, only cite the platinum one here
  • The platinum certification here can be used for the refname I referenced earlier in the review

References

  • Make sure all of these are archived by using the tool
  • Copyvio score looks slick at 9.1%!
  • Some of these are missing publisher/website and accessdates; give these to any sources that can have them added, i.e not the likes of the cassette and CD ones
  • Target Timothy White to Timothy White (writer) on ref 2 and target Spin to Spin (magazine)
  • Target Elektra to Elektra Records on ref 5
  • Target People to People (magazine) on ref 7
  • Cite Thomas Gale as the author for ref 8 and remove him from publisher, placing his surname before forename for consistency
  • Allmusic → AllMusic on ref 9 with the wikilink
  • Wikilink Chicago Tribune on ref 10
  • Wikilink
    The New Rolling Stone Album Guide
    on ref 13
  • Target Billboard to Billboard (magazine) on ref 15
  • Solely cite Official Charts Company for ref 18 with the wikilink, as publisher
  • Ditto for refs 19, 24 and 25 but with no wikilinking
  • Ref 21's title appears to have not been filled in properly
  • David Roberts' name is ordered incorrectly on ref 26 and target Guinness World Records Limited to Guinness World Records

Final comments and verdict

  •  On hold even though the article is not too well crafted currently, I have confidence that you can fix these issues in a week and if I have not estimated properly then this may end up being failed. --K. Peake 13:00, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ✗ Fail for this article now since not only has it been over a week and you have not fixed the large amount of issues in time, but I have made comments to you directly days ago that you have not responded to at all. --K. Peake 05:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 06:40, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Good Article
review progress box
WP:CV
()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4.
free or tagged images
() 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the
Good Article criteria. Criteria marked
are unassessed

I will take this on for review, as it would be appropriate for me to get the article into GA status potentially because I conducted the first review; I will use that one here to help me somewhat! --K. Peake 06:40, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and lead

  • Infobox looks good!
  • "of the lead singer" → "of the band's lead singer" and this is a change you did not fully implement from the previous review
    Oh, I guess I did.  Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Eat for Two" charted" → "The former of the two charted" to avoid starting two sentences in a row with the song's title
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Another update: I made changes to the singles info to reflect the changes in the body. --George Ho (talk) 20:25, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update the overview of the album's reviews to mixed like it is in the body; this is one of the parts of the lead that has changed since the previous review
    I changed "mixed to positive" → "mixed". I don't know whether that would suffice. George Ho (talk) 09:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "number 13 in the" → "number 13 on the"
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in the UK Albums Chart. It also was certified platinum in December 1997" → "on the UK Albums Chart, and was certified platinum in the US by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA)." and this should be the end of the sentence because otherwise it will be too long, plus you can't start two consecutive sentences with "it".
    I rearranged the sentences especially by separating the US and the UK into their respective sentences. George Ho (talk) 09:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    George Ho Nice start, but I did some moderate copyediting to completely fix this part. --K. Peake 11:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Background and development

  • "lacked commercial success," → "had lacked commercial success," because this info is directly following info about the band at the time of the album's release
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "under the band's own record label" → "under their own record label" with the wikilink; another change I requested that was not done, it was suggested to avoid stating "the band" twice in the same sentence
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "second studio album," → "second studio album"
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after they signed contract" → "after they signed a contract" you forgot to add the word "a", which is required for correct grammar
    I guess I did, eh?  Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The album production occurred" → "The album's production occurred"
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Target mixing to Audio mixing (recorded music)
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Target Right Track Studios to
    MSR Studios
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Themes and lyrics

  • George Ho Very good to see you have responded up to here in a short amount of time; do you think all the issues will be fixed today? --K. Peake 10:00, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Release and promotion

  • "and May 15, 1989 in the UK." → "and May 15 in the United Kingdom."
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove wikilink on "Trouble Me"
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have not sourced the release dates of the track and the other two singles; add that here
    I couldn't find a reliable source verifying release dates of the singles, so I rewrote the sentence instead. --George Ho (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You need to remove the commas from inside the speech marks of the song titles like I suggested
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were released in a" → "were included on the" and this is another suggestion from the previous review you missed
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Target VHS album to
    MOS:LINK2SECT
    , not the article and the section's hashtag
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are included in its" → "were released on its"
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:01, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Critical reception

  • "was met with mixed reviews." → "was met with mixed reviews from music critics."
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't the section be ordered in terms of going from most positive to most negative reviews since the reception is classified as mixed?
    I moved Anthony DeCurtis's review/statement into "Themes and lyrics" section; I haven't seen it as either positive, mixed, or negative. Nonetheless, I was able to restructure the sentences and to split paragraphs into one positive, one mixed possibly, and one negative. --George Ho (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    George Ho This is a better placement for sure, but I changed "the album" to "it" for avoiding writing the former too much. --K. Peake 11:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • AllMusic should not be italicised, but at least you edited the prose for this part per my suggestion
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Chicago Tribune reviewer Greg Kot" → "The Chicago Tribune reviewer Greg Kot" with the wikilink, props for finding the author by now however!
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "powerful lyricism [on] the" → "powerful lyricism" on "the" since there is a gap inbetween the parts before and after [on] that is not represented
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "theme of betrayal."" → "theme of betrayal"."
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Commercial performance

Track listing

  • Source: CD album booklet → Credits are adapted from the album's booklet.
     Done. --George Ho (talk) 10:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence on the line below this one should be a different sentence on the same line, with the ref coming after both of them
    I converted the all_lyrics parameter into manually written sentence. Please let me know if you want further changes. --George Ho (talk) 10:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    George Ho The sentence is fine, but shouldn't the ref solely be at the end of the line since it is the only one? --K. Peake 11:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Personnel

  • Add "Credits are adapted from the album's booklet." at the top of this section, making that the sole place where [2] is invoked
  • ("Trouble Me") → (track 4)

Charts

  • See
    MOS:TABLECAPTION
    Unsure which part is necessary. If captions, then I've added them. George Ho (talk) 11:19, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    George Ho You're off to a good start, though the caption should be something like "Weekly chart performance for Blind Man's Zoo". --K. Peake 11:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
     Done per above suggestion. --George Ho (talk) 19:40, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The charts should be alphabetically ordered
     Done. George Ho (talk) 11:19, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Certifications

  • See MOS:TABLECAPTION
    Unsure which part is necessary. If captions, then I've added them. George Ho (talk) 11:19, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

External links

  • Mention the website the lyrics are at
     Done and reformatted. Also, I tagged the link as dead link; fortunately, the archive link has been already given. --George Ho (talk) 19:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Final comments and verdict

  •  On hold for a week until the issues are fixed, but the article is a lot better from when I reviewed it the first time; props for your progress, and hopefully you can get everything done in less than a week! --K. Peake 09:00, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • George Ho ✓ Pass for this article even though I did some brief copy editing where you missed only a few points, amazing improvement on the response from last time! --K. Peake 21:17, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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