Talk:Conor McGregor

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I would just change the reason for defeat in his third fight with Poirer to 'TKO (Doctor's stoppage due to leg injury)', as that was the official reason. 159.196.170.44 (talk) 03:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 03:42, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Undone: This request has been undone. By User:Cassiopeia. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 04:15, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why was this request undone? AgentStark (talk) 07:33, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to

WP:MMA guidelines. Sherdog lists the fight result as "TKO (Leg injury)" ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 08:42, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

 Done again. The fight stoppage was due to doctor's intervention. As was/is already referenced in the article. The

Reliable Sources Noticeboard has already ruled that sources other than Sherdog can be used in MMA articles, and specifically in this one. (If sherdog isn't listing the official reason for stoppage, maybe it's not that reliable?) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:BRD. Stop edit-warring. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:49, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Not ambiguous. NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:51, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Please do not revert the text from the result "TKO (Leg injury)" again. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 09:56, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't, I restored the version as per Sherdog. Bastun changed it.NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:58, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bastun - I really don't want an argument. Please read the following from WP:MMA:

In the column Method, unless sources within the body text of the article state otherwise, always use the result that is available in a fighter's record at Sherdog Fight Finder. Do not use your interpretation of a fight result in the reEDOCHAN|NEDOCHAN]] (talk) 09:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)cord, as the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Any result that is not referenced or that is not the same as in Sherdog, must be returned to how it is described in Sherdog.[reply]

Thanks. NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Copied the above from my talk page, where it was posted for some odd reason. Why post that there, rather than here?

Response to it: It's lovely, but it's completely unenforceable - who agreed to that? How many editors? When and where? A dead Wikiproject? You are well aware that the

Reliable Sources Noticeboard already ruled you can't limit MMA sources to Sherdog, and ESPN is a reliable source. I did not add my own interpretation, as you claim. If Sherdog isn't reporting the official causes of fights ending, maybe it's just not so reliable? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:59, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

It is the official result. That's why it's there. NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Somehow I didn't notice it was a dead Wikiproject. @Bastun makes good points. However my edit was initially reverted by @Cassiopeia, citing the same reason as @NEDOCHAN on my talk page actually about WP:MMA. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It'd also be great, Bastun, if you stopped needlessly insulting a WikiProject of which you're not a member and to which you have never contributed every time you come to a page about Conor McGregor. There are lots of us who do lots of work and it'd be appreciated if you stopped slagging us off.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The WP hasn't been updated since 2007... ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject MMA is alive and well, thanks.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:10, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts&action=historyNEDOCHAN (talk) 10:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sixteen separate non-bot editors over the most recent 50 edits, which go back to February? This is an ex-parrot. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The project is moribund at best. The fact that you use it in your argument is why I have to reference it. The result sherdog reports is not the official result. The result ESPN reports is. I'd also like to remind editors of this: There are arguments both for and against the reliability of this source. Editors who considered the source less reliable cited lack of reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, while those in favor cited its agreement with ESPN as an indication of fact-checking and accuracy per WP:RS. Overall, however, the consensus seems to be that the source is less reliable than ESPN and other sources rated generally reliable, but does not count as a self-published source under WP:SPS. Some editors believe that Sherdog is reliable for some basic information, especially fight information and results, but not other information. Overall, the consensus is that the source should be used with caution, on a case-by-case basis. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 13:39, 28 November 2020 (UTC) source.

This was the result of a substantive RfC at the

ownership of this article is getting tiresome at this stage. Again, I invite you to self-revert. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:16, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

The pageviews have been about 10 per day for the past five years. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:17, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FormalDude, that has nothing to do with anything. Bastun. Even the quote above, which was a non-admin closure of an RFC started by a sock and contained three different socks of the same user voting in it, still says that for fight records there is consensus for them to be as per Sherdog. I won't revert and I'd ask you not to either. The official result is NOT what it says in ESPN. The official result is TKO (injury). Sherdog and other sources often say what was injured, for posterity. https://www.cbssports.com/mma/news/ufc-264-results-highlights-dustin-poirier-scores-tko-victory-after-conor-mcgregor-suffers-leg-injury/live/NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:21, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It shows the level of activity in the WikiProject, as does the revision history you tagged: it's very low. Regardless, I restored Bastun's edit because it is the more

WP:RS. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:26, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

I have no idea whether or not any participants in the RfC were socks. Non-admin closures are perfectly fine. That RfC result absolutely stands, until such time as there's another, with a different ruling. Even if the WP:MMA instruction above carried more weight than the RfC (it doesn't), it states In the column Method, unless sources within the body text of the article state otherwise, always use the result... (my emphasis added). So, as the body and the source in the body do indeed say otherwise - get on with the reverting, NEDOCHAN. Also please stop with the

WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour. We are literally talking about the addition of a couple of words, sourced, to a reliable source, which are entirely accurate. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:29, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

The ESPN source doesn't say TKO (doctor's stoppage due to leg injury).NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:37, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The UFC official scorecard result of the fight is "Dustin Poirier def. Conor McGregor via TKO (Doctor stoppage) at 5:00 of round one."

ufc.com/news/official-scorecards-ufc-264-poirier-vs-mcgregor-3

ufc.com/news/ufc-264-poirier-vs-mcgregor-3-results-wonderboy-burns-highlights-interviews-winners

––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 12:12, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

UFC is not a 3rd party, reliable source. CBS: https://www.cbssports.com/mma/news/ufc-264-results-highlights-dustin-poirier-scores-tko-victory-after-conor-mcgregor-suffers-leg-injury/live/NEDOCHAN (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the extent to which you're familiar with the topic, but this is actually important. McGregor expressly asked for this listing, as it's in his and the UFC's favour. The UFC is not reliable to list the official results. Also it only lists UFC fights. Sherdog lists all fights and is used throughout Wikipedia. UFC have a financial incentive to do things the way Conor wants.NEDOCHAN (talk) 12:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the extent to which you're familiar with

Primary sources

can be used appropriately in certain situations, and this is certainly one, where it is clearly supplemented by multiple reliable secondary sources that mention essentially the same result: a TKO doctor's stoppage due to leg/ankle injury.

• ESPN - "The official result was Poirier by TKO (doctor's stoppage) at 5:00 of the first round."
• NY Times "Lost via technical knockout because of a doctor's stoppage."
• WashPo "Poirier claimed the final chapter of [the fight] on a doctor's decision when McGregor could not continue after injuring his leg."
• DAZN News "Poirier def. McGregor at 5:00 of the first round after the ringside doctor stopped the fight."
• CBS "Dustin Poirier scores TKO victory after Conor McGregor suffers leg injury"
• Sherdog "Result: Loss. TKO (Leg Injury)"

––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 12:48, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The official result is TKO (injury). Sherdog and a few other sites say what was injured. I am not disputing what happened, I am keeping the official result in accordance with the source we use in every MMA fighter page as per WP:MMA guidelines.NEDOCHAN (talk) 12:54, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At the very least, doctor's stoppage should be added to the notes section of the table. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 20:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, and cited to ESPN (as there is no bar on reliable sources other than sherdog being used; and sherdog's reliability derives in part from its association with ESPN). Note that the person reverting this change has been blocked from this page for one week for edit warring. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:24, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Sosa 1917 (talk) 06:55, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 

The “KO” loss on the Wikipedia of Conor McGregor was officially ruled a TKO by the UFC ON January 24, 2021 at UFC 257. Please fix this mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sosa 1917 (talk • contribs)

 Done at 07:22, 13 July 2021 (→‎Mixed martial arts record: 1/24/21 result changed from "KO" to "TKO" as the article already mentions this was a TKO with reliable sources under Conor_McGregor#2021) ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 07:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently @NEDOCHAN cannot read that the given source for this fight, cbssports.com/mma/news/ufc-257-results-highlights-dustin-poirier-stuns-conor-mcgregor-with-second-round-knockout/live, states the results as "TKO (punches)". I reverted their edit as such a clear contradiction to the source constitutes vandalism. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 07:45, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Undone We source the official record to Sherdog.NEDOCHAN (talk) 07:47, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Listing the fight as a 'KO' (instead of as a 'TKO') goes against the very source being used to justify that sentence. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 07:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• The edit has yet again been reverted, NED0CHAN's fifth revert in 24 hours. See Also: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:NEDOCHAN_reported_by_User:FormalDude_(Result:_). ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 07:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Good call. We source the official record to

@FormalDude, Bastun, NEDOCHAN, AgentStark, and Cassiopeia: I am copying the following discussion from

First disputed edit: Results of UFC 264 McGregor v Poirer on 10 July, 2021. (Discussion: Talk:Conor_McGregor#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_12_July_2021)
•Argument A says the result is "TKO (leg injury)" with justification being the Sherdog source.
•Argument B says the result is "TKO (doctor stoppage due to leg injury)" with justification being six reliable sources.
Second disputed edit: Results of UFC 257 McGregor v Poirer on 24 January, 2021. (Discussion: Talk:Conor_McGregor#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_13_July_2021)
•Argument A says the result is "KO (punches)" with justification being the Sherdog source.
•Argument B says the result is "TKO (punches)" with justification being the CBS source used in the body text of the article.

Interesting that you chose to ignore this. NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:23, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good lord, stop with the non-sequiturs. I didn't ignore that, that is the basis of the disagreement. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 09:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You didn't add Cassiopeia but you did add someone with 1 edit.NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:58, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm glad they chose to give their opinions here, they did not comment at all on the talk page discussions. Again, this is completely besides the point. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of dispute by Bastun

I didn't get a ping about this, and disagree with the preliminary outcome, so I've reopened.

Argument A: unless sources within the body text of the article state otherwise, always use the result that is available in a fighter's record at Sherdog Fight Finder. (My emphasis added)

Sources within the body of the article do state otherwise. ESPN and several other

Argument B: "the Reliable Sources Noticeboard has already ruled that sources other than Sherdog can be used in MMA articles, and specifically in the Conor McGregor article. (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_318#Sherdog.com).

I mean - that's pretty crystal clear, isn't it? There is no One True Source. The RfC has ruled, the ruling has not been overturned. It still stands. One or two active editors - one of whom has just been blocked from the article in question for a week - can't enforce their project's guideline over community

So, I move that the first edit (McGregor's most recent result) be changed to match the ESPN source: TKO (doctor's stoppage). But - more substantively - I would like to see confirmation that the MMA project's guideline does not trump Wikipedia policy on

Who, specifically, are these sources paraphrasing? These are all official results just as much as Sherdog is, regardless of MMA article precedent.

• ESPN - "The official result was Poirier by TKO (doctor's stoppage) at 5:00 of the first round."
• NY Times "Lost via technical knockout because of a doctor's stoppage."
• WashPo "Poirier claimed the final chapter of [the fight] on a doctor's decision when McGregor could not continue after injuring his leg."
• DAZN News "Poirier def. McGregor at 5:00 of the first round after the ringside doctor stopped the fight."
• CBS "Dustin Poirier scores TKO victory after Conor McGregor suffers leg injury"
• UFC 1, 2 "Dustin Poirier def. Conor McGregor via TKO (Doctor stoppage) at 5:00 of round one."

––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 09:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How about you show me a source that says, verbatim, TKO (Doctor stoppage due to leg injury) ?NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Each source explicitly says the fight ended with a TKO due to a doctor's stoppage, explicitly says McGregor had a leg injury, and explicitly says the leg injury is what caused the doctor's stoppage. I'm not continuing this discussion anymore as you're just going in circles. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 09:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How's that verbatim result coming along?NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:59, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Each source explicitly says the fight ended with a TKO due to a doctor's stoppage. How's that week-long block from the article going? How's being laughed off AN/I going? I mean, is there a better recent example of

WP:IDONTHEARTHAT around the project? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

That's a fine resolution for the first disputed edit, but the second disputed edit needs to be updated to "TKO" instead of "KO". The very MMA guidelines you're using a justification stipulate that Sherdog should be used "unless sources within the body text of the article state otherwise." This source in the body of the text says the result is a TKO, not a KO. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

talk) 10:29, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@Cassiopeia: All good on UFC 264. UFC 257 however, the article says the result was "KO (punches)", however the sources in the body text says the result was "TKO (punches)". Per MMA policy we should go by the source in the body text, right? So "TKO (punches)" would be the result. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:36, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

talk) 10:44, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Fantastic. I greatly appreciate your effort helping to resolve these edit disputes. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:47, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

talk) 10:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

TKO (leg injury) on fight method and "due to doctor stoppage" in the note section. Is not what has happened.NEDOCHAN (talk) 11:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected the article. See diff. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 11:19, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Gsfelipe94 here as they are continually removing the doctor's stoppage from the notes section, against the consensus of this discussion. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 02:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Such format is never used in other articles. It would make way more sense to have it alltogether as TKO (doctor stoppage due to leg injury) instead of this format. Not to mention that having "Doctor stoppage due to injury. Broken leg" looks "broken" (no pun intended). Another option would be to have it as "Doctor stoppage to to leg injury (or broken leg)", even though for the sake of style and better display, having it all on the method section would be better. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 02:43, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Completely agree with Gsfelipe94, especially since MMA Wikiproject guidelines state that the result/method should be based on the source from the body of the article when available over Sherdog. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 02:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

• Important comment: Even if we were to ignore @
  WP:RS, the MMA wikiproject guidelines that both @NEDOCHAN and @Cassiopeia favor states "In the column Method, unless sources within the body text of the article state otherwise, always use the result that is available in a fighter's record at Sherdog Fight Finder." Well, section '2021' of Conor McGregor (body text of the article) states the result as a doctor's stoppage with two verifying sources, while Sherdog does not mention a doctor's stoppage. That means as the article stands, it has a contradictory statement, because the Sherdog result is listed under the 'Mixed martial arts record' section. According to the MMA guidelines that we JUST agreed to for UFC 264, the Mixed martial arts record section should reflect the result as per the body text, NOT Sherdog. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 12:33, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Happy to wait for further comment from CassNEDOCHAN (talk) 12:34, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And presumably other people who aren't members of the MMA wikiproject? That's kinda the point of dispute resolution. New, uninvolved voices. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:38, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@NEDOCHAN: Cassiopeia is the one who agreed to change UFC 264 for the same reason. I seriously doubt they're going to change their mind and say that reason is no longer valid for UFC 257. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 12:49, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Hello people

i hope you finish this discussion because believe it or not,there are already a lot of regular people or casual fans on social media who may visit the conor mcgregor’s page who don’t understand wikipedia and don’t know what disputed on wikipedia mean,you can see it if you don’t even have an account on wikipedia,they will probably think it means a disbuted result about the fight itself since there was a controversy from some mcgregor’s fans who didn’t like the way the fight ended (which is absurd of course since hundreads of combat sports fights got stopped by doctors before) i just hope you end the debate by today,let’s give dustin poirier his dues. Andrewnageh123 (talk) 05:24, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The wording is wrong. This is a listed result. No source has the method as here. NEDOCHAN (talk) 08:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• @Gsfelipe94, Cassiopeia, LuK3, and RafaelHP: At the moment, the wording for the method is not using official wording. It needs either to say TKO (leg injury) or TKO (doctor's stoppage). Currently, the method is more like a note than a formal method. It used to say TKO (leg injury) as it does in Sherdog. It was being discussed but for some reason it's gone back. In my view, we should simply stick to the source. What do you think? NEDOCHAN (talk) 08:38, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Both listed results for UFC 257 and UFC 264 should not be based on the Sherdog source, they should be based on the sources already within the body text of the article:

Citation [124] Actual quote from source: "Dustin Poirier def. Conor McGregor via second-round TKO (punches)"

Citation [127] Actual quote from source: "Official Result: Dustin Poirier def. Conor McGregor by TKO (doctor’s stoppage), Round 1, 5:00"

Citation [128] Actual quote from source: "The official result was Poirier by TKO (doctor's stoppage) at 5:00 of the first round."

––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 08:45, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The words you have put in bold caps do not correspond to what's in the method column.NEDOCHAN (talk) 08:48, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently lists UFC 257 result as "TKO (punches)" and UFC 264 result as "TKO (Doctor's stoppage due to leg injury)". That leaves four words that don't correspond. What's the issue with including the reason for the doctor's stoppage? There's no disputing that the doctor stoppage was due to his leg injury. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 08:52, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is that not a single source lists the official method as we have. So pick an official method and stick to it.NEDOCHAN (talk) 08:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Actually both of the sources list the official method as we have it. As I said, there's absolutely no dispute that the doctor's stoppage was due to a leg injury. The sources clearly state that. Have you read the sources? ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 08:55, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Have you? The sources say "TKO (Doctor's stoppage) or "TKO (injury) or "TKO ( leg injury). No source has the official method as we have because....it's not the way official methods are recorded. The reason you're struggling to find a source that lists it as here (and by the way it should reflect consensus, which it doesn't) is that none of them does. Your own capitals don't correspond to what's written. As you say, 'four words don't correspond'.NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:02, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sources not saying verbatim "TKO (Doctor's stoppage due to leg injury)" does not mean they do not go on to say, multiple times, that the match was stopped because of McGregor's leg injury. E.I. the result of the match is a TKO Doctor's stoppage due to leg injury. At the very least it should be listed in the notes column. But I see no reason not to list it in the result column. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 09:14, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it should be in the notes column. But the method of victory should correspond verbatim to how it's recorded in the source. The reason it shouldn't be in the method column is that it's not a formal way of listing a result.NEDOCHAN (talk) 09:27, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if my opinion has any value but I personally think it should be listed as "TKO (doctor stoppage)". Whenever I scroll across pages that's what the result always is even if the stoppage was a result of an injury. Take

Anthony Smith for example; the result is listed as a doctor stoppage even though it was due to a leg injury. RafaelHP (talk) 10:15, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

I would be happy with that. The method has to correspond with a formal description as sourced. At the moment it's a paraphrase, which isn't OK.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:23, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why isn't it ok? Is it not more important to have more information available in the Method column? We already know that sherdog can't be declared the One True Source, so if other multiple reliable sources say "TKO (doctor's stoppage due to leg injury)" when the reason the fight was stopped was a doctor intervened due to an injury to McGregor's leg, then we are providing more relevant information to our readers in an easily accessible table. We write for our

readers, after all. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:37, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

@NEDOCHAN: "Not the formal way of listing a result"–according to who? It is the formal way of listing a result as per WP:WP MMA. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to the commission that sanctions the fight. Again, no source lists method of victory as written currently. It's not a summary, it's a method of victory. You can't make up your own format in your own wording. So choose a source and replicate the method verbatim. NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:51, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

'multiple reliable sources say "TKO (doctor's stoppage due to leg injury)'? No...NONE OF THEM DOES. Not one. Zilch. Zero. That is Bastun's summary. It literally says that nowhere.NEDOCHAN (talk) 10:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do you consider "Poirier claimed the final chapter on a doctor's decision when McGregor could not continue after injuring his leg" to mean if not "TKO (doctor's stoppage due to leg injury)"? Via Washington Post.

A method of victory is no more than a description of how the fight was won. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't. It's a format used by commissions. It isn't a description of how the fight was won. It's a record. Again, why won't you simply record the method verbatim as sourced? Why?NEDOCHAN (talk) 11:02, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Doubt this is a relevant point but to me this argument seems to be based off the fact of how famous Conor McGregor is, if it was any other fighter the result would just be "TKO (doctor's stoppage)" and nobody would bat an eye. RafaelHP (talk) 11:07, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I said before I am fine with keeping it verbatim, I just don't think it is beneficial to do so. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 11:12, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

talk) 11:19, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Cassiopeia - never change. Thank you. This is what I have been trying to say. NEDOCHAN (talk) 11:26, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• 'Could we agree to put "TKO ( leg injury) and add "due to doctor stoppage" in the note section.' This was the last consensus and that should've been that. The only person objecting is Bastun, who I hope will read the above.NEDOCHAN (talk) 11:35, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per the following sources, it should be "TKO (doctor stoppage)". We can add the leg injury information in the notes.

Citation [127] Actual quote from source: "Official Result: Dustin Poirier def. Conor McGregor by TKO (doctor’s stoppage), Round 1, 5:00"

Citation [128] Actual quote from source: "The official result was Poirier by TKO (doctor's stoppage) at 5:00 of the first round."

––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 11:43, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

talk) 11:41, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Yeah my bad. I'm fine with TKO (leg injury) but where does that leave, the TKO (punches) result in the 2nd Poirier fight? Sherdog has it listed as KO (punches) so shouldn't it be that? RafaelHP (talk) 11:44, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So what you're proposing is that we don't record the correct official result, which is 'doctor's stoppage', and instead use 'leg injury', which was not the official cause of the stoppage. No. Why would we do that?! It makes literally no sense. No objection to listing the method as 'doctor's stoppage', sourced to ESPN. On the rest of what you're saying, Cassiopeia, if you're suggesting sherdog can be the only source used, no, absolutely not. This has been ruled on already, in an RfC, and the arguments used in that RfC remain in place. A Wikiproject's guidelines, which it doesn't itself apply uniformly, does not trump community consensus or WIkipedia policy. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:41, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RafaelHP: We follow the source from the body text of the article rather than Sherdog. So it would be TKO (punches).

Citation [124] Actual quote from source: "Dustin Poirier def. Conor McGregor via second-round TKO (punches)"

––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 11:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@FormalDude: Alrighty thanks for the confirmation. RafaelHP (talk) 11:48, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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talk) 12:12, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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The point of prioritizing sources from the body text over Sherdog is so that the reader does not see one outcome for the fight, and then, further down the page, sees a different outcome for the very same fight. Given that a majority of sources (including those not listed in the article) all say TKO due to doctor's stoppage, I think that is what should go in the method column. Have a nice night Cassiopeia! ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 12:21, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I get that. If the Method column is for the official fight result only, rather than being more descriptive, then in this case, it's as described by ESPN - "doctor's stoppage" - and not "leg injury". Which is the problem that arises when someone tries to impose one source only. Hope you enjoyed the run! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CBS lists it as TKO (injury). The problem is making up official fight results. Which is what you did.NEDOCHAN (talk) 13:33, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not made up. It's literally verbatim what the sources already in the article currently state:

-Citation [127] "Official Result: Dustin Poirier def. Conor McGregor by TKO (doctor’s stoppage), Round 1, 5:00"

-Citation [128] "The official result was Poirier by TKO (doctor's stoppage) at 5:00 of the first round."

Add to that, it is also the official method per the UFC:

-UFC 1, 2 "Dustin Poirier def. Conor McGregor via TKO (Doctor stoppage) at 5:00 of round one."

So your one CBS source stating "TKO (Injury)" has little baring. If it must be included, the logical way to accurately summarize all the sources would be TKO (doctor's stoppage due to injury). But if you must choose one or the other, the sole CBS source is clearly the outlier. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 15:11, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cass has explained in detail why you're wrong about this.NEDOCHAN (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, @Cassiopeia said "in the issue at hand, it would either [be] 'TKO (Doctor's stoppage)' or 'TKO (leg injury)'. " I think four sources (two of which are used in the body text of the article) outweighs the one CBS source (that's not used in the article) and Sherdog. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 16:12, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TKO (doctor's stoppage due to a leg injury) sounds excessive, plus it is technically a made up result that's never been used on any other page. RafaelHP (talk) 16:21, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You could also combine the sources as "TKO (Doctor stoppage/Injury)". ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 16:30, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@NEDOCHAN, FormalDude, RafaelHP, and Bastun: I did enjoy my run, Man! it was a little cold, running in the winter at 4:45am. Bastun, again, ESPN is not an independent source for it is related/associated with UFC as the broadcaster (ESPN is partnered with UFC for 7 years). Secondly FormalDude, as explained no doctor stoppage/injury or injury due to doctor stoppage. We will go by either "TKO (doctor stoppage) or TKO (leg injury). See below, I gather most known mma media sources around the world which I could find and few newspapers. (Note: NO ESPN or UFC sources included here as they are not independent since this is a UFC event).

So, as you can see about same amount of sources indicated 2 different fight method. UFC 257 as most sources indicate TKO for I did agreed to changed from KO to TKO, but for UFC 264 is not the case and when 2 different method are cited but about the same amount of sources. To me to used "leg injury" on fight method and "due to doctor stoppage" on notes would be the best compromise solution. I really hope we could have an agreement here gentlemen.

talk) 10:16, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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@NEDOCHAN, FormalDude, RafaelHP, and Cassiopeia: I believe I'm correct in thinking that nobody at this stage - bar, perhaps, NEDOCHAN? - actually objects to using the official outcome, i.e., "TKO (doctor's stoppage)"? I therefore propose we just go with that, then, and reference it to ESPN, thereby putting this to bed. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:27, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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talk) 10:35, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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It sounds like @Cassiopeia favors "TKO (leg injury)" with "Due to doctor stoppage" in the notes over "TKO (doctor's stoppage)". Personally I think "TKO (doctor stoppage)" with "Due to leg injury" in the notes is better, for one reason: Leg injury with 'due to doctor's stoppage' is confusing, as the doctor's stoppage did not cause the leg injury. But Doctor stoppage with 'due to leg injury' implies the leg injury caused the doctor's stoppage. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:37, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I should also mention that the sources and text in the body of the article correspond to "TKO (doctor's stoppage)" so that is another (probably more important) reason to include it over "TKO (leg injury)". ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:39, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The body text source can be changed for it is not fixed for it depends which source we use (pls guy re-read my message). We could put "TKO (leg injury)" on fight method and nothing on notes as this is the norm in the fight table (welcome to check all 1.5 mma fighter pages in Wikipedia). I thought is when about the same amount of source indicated 2 different fight method, then the one used by Wikipedia MMA guidelines source (Sherdog) should be used.

talk) 10:48, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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Cassiopeia, glad you enjoyed the run. ESPN is absolutely a reliable source that can be used for MMA fights, regardless of any partnership with UFC. Sherdog is far more dodgy, in fact - see its entry Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, where it explicitly states it's not as reliable as... ESPN. Case in point: this one, where it gets the outcome wrong. Bear in mind, a lot of the outlets you list above are tertiary sources. I would be quite amazed if The Hindustan Times or Lowkick had reporter's present, given, not least, COVID travel restrictions, and they are actually reporting either what a different outlet said; or what they saw on the night prior to the official method being announced. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:43, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To expand on the ESPN issue somewhat, saying it can't be used because of a partnership is like saying Hansard can't be used as a source for UK parliamentary debates because it's not independent! I am also going to point (again) to [[1]]. Please read the outcome there. To summarise: Sherdog's usability derives in part from its own relationship with ESPN; and Sherdog is not as reliable as ESPN! If we can't use ESPN because of its relationship with UFC, then we can't use Sherdog because of its relationship with ESPN... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:49, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And it dosn't matter that the body text and sources can change, as they're given precedent over the otherwise standard use of Sherdog. To be honest I don't see the body text changing anyways, it's very straightforward. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 10:55, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with either TKO (doctor's stoppage) or TKO (leg injury), but I lean more towards doctor stoppage since yknow, the fight was stopped by the doctor. RafaelHP (talk) 10:57, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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talk) 04:29, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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How can Sherdog be independent when its content is based off its relationship with the non-independent ESPN? ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 13:57, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also feeling I'm repeating myself: WP:MMA can decide that the only reliable source for MMA is ESPN, or Sherdog, or

The case remains that the official result of UFC 264 is a TKO due to doctor's stoppage. I'm happy for what we have now to remain, but NEDOCHAN is insisting that the only thing that can be listed is the official result- doctor's stoppage. He's been quite adamant about it. I'm also happy to include "TKO (doctor's stoppage)". FormalDude and RafaelHP are also happy with the latter. Unless there are any further objections, or a discussion on ESPN is started on WP:RS/N, I'll change it to that tomorrow, unless someone else beats me to it. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:27, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good points were made about not listing "doctor stoppage due to leg injury" as the method. But better points have been about why to include "TKO (doctor stoppage)" instead of "TKO (leg injury)". I'm not sure this counts as a consensus, but we are at least on the verge of one. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 01:13, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Right, done. When in doubt, stick to policy. We have something approaching consensus, I think. We can't have both the actual, official result ("TKO - doctor's stoppage"), and sherdog as a source for this entry.

WP:V and RP:RS are both satisfied using ESPN, and we have the official result. Let's hope it lasts... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:57, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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talk) 10:53, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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It's my understanding that we already reached a consensus with no disagreement on UFC 257's method being listed as "TKO (punches)". I thought we were only debating whether to use "TKO (doctor stoppage)" or "TKO (leg injury)" for UFC 264. I also do not believe a consensus has been reached and encourage the discussion to remain open for a minimum of seven days. ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 11:00, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, c'mon, Cassiopeia - if you've read my responses, you'll know that I have indeed read yours and you'll have seen what I've already said about your concerns on using ESPN as a source. If you're really that concerned about use of ESPN, you'll also have seen the remedy I suggested. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:04, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have certainly fully read and re-read your messages. Sherdog cannot be independent (and therefore

WP:RS) if ESPN is not indepedent of the UFC, because Sherdog's content is based on a relationship it has with ESPN. Where have you addressed this? ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 11:00, 17 July 2021 (UTC) ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 11:06, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

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talk) 11:26, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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I'm not sure where you're seeing that they no longer have a partnership with ESPN. Either way, the consensus reached earlier this year at

reliable sources

besides Sherdog that are independent. The most reliable sources list the method as TKO (doctor stoppage):

––FORMALDUDE⁽talk) 12:23, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've no problem waiting. I assumed we had reached consensus, or close enough to consensus, at 5:0 or even 4:1 - hence why I made the edit. To claim that ESPN can't be used, as it's not independent, is to misconstrue

WP:SKYISBLUE, y'know? (And of course we can use any of the other RS listed by FormalDude, above, too!) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:30, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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I have explained and explained and Batsun, I dont think you care to read or understand as of most of your discussions. You should know by now the person who involed in the discussion of RS Sherdog was a Sock and causing so much disruptions and was banned indef. Besides ESPN, there are plenty of independent reliable sources to be used. Thank you for providing the sources FormalDude and info above and I change my initial view and support TKO (doctor stoppage). However, pls wait for uninvolved editor to close the discussion as we do not have consensus resolution yet, unless Nedochan changes his mind. Until then, pls wait. Have a good weekend and stay safe gentlemen.

talk) 06:30, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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1) I have read and understood your arguments, Cassiopeia. Please

WP:AGF and give me some credit. Unless presented with a giant wall of text, I will always fully read contributions. I don't agree with your claim that ESPN isn't independent enough; there's a difference. 2) What? The person who started the RfC was a sock, yes. They were blocked. So, I see now, was one of their socks. Not counting the last IP contributor there, or the socks, there were still 15 contributors to that RfC! It stands, until such time as there's another RfC. 3) NEDOCHAN has already stated they want the verbatim result included, i.e., "TKO (doctor's stoppage)", so that's now 5:0, full consensus. Why delay? Genuinely puzzled. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:03, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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@Cassiopeia: Until someone provides an argument for the inclusion of "TKO (doctor stoppage due leg injury)" that should not be in the article. I've again changed it to "TKO (doctor stoppage)". ––FORMALDUDE^(talk) 12:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@

talk) 03:56, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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Yes, I understand the argument you're making, Cassiopeia - I just think you're misinterpreting policy. Are you aware of

WP:RSSELF? Basically, context matters. If ESPN report that UFC is the biggest sport in the world, or the biggest MMA franchise in the world, or similar, then yes, you'd need independent third-party sourcing to include it here. If ESPN says a Poirier beat McGregor, or that the fight was ended by doctor's stoppage, then yes, we can absolutely use them as a reference. If you still dont understand then I have nothing more to add - so maybe we keep any further discussion on that to our respective talk pages? Cheers, BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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Context is different from IRS. IRS always comes first and it is the Wikipedia core policy. If the source is not both IRS then what ever in the content of the article from the source cant be used. If not I would not be agreed to change my initial suggestion to that of FormalDude's after he provided the info on the latest source table. I think this discussion has gone long enough and we just need uninvolved editor to close this discussion. You have a good day and stay safe always. Good night.

talk) 09:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply

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