Talk:Crusading movement

Specific remarks

• The Crusading movement's beginnings were propelled by a significant shift in the western Church during the mid-eleventh century. Reformers, supported initially by Henry III, Holy Roman Emperor and later opposing his son Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor, assumed power over the papacy around 1040. They astutely perceived the papacy as the optimal vehicle for their mission to eliminate corruption in the Church and strategically took control of it. 1. The cited source does not verify the two sentences. 2. The texts in italics repeat the same information. 3. The date is not around 1040 but in the late 1040s [Barber (2012), p. 84] 4. Link to Western Church? 5. Consequency: "mid-eleventh century" vs. "mid-19th century". 6. The "reformers" were specifically reformist clerics. 7. Why did they perceive the papacy as the optimal vehicle?

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The Crusading movements origins can be found in the significant changes within the Latin church during the mid-eleventh century. In the 1040s church reformers gained control of the papacy. This was with the initial support Henry III, Holy Roman Emperor, but later in conflict with his son Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor. The reformers viewed this as the most effective method to eliminate what they saw as corruption in the church. 1. The cited source does not verify the three sentences. (Bull writes of debates about the concept of mutation féodale, and the use of the term miles.) 2. Link to church reformers? 3. What did the reformers view as the most effective method? The conflict with Henry IV?

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Partially done. Bull does not verify the statements, and we still do not know why reformers regarded the papacy so important. The article makes no reference to the preeminent position of the papacy within Catholic church hierarchy, although billions of our non-Catholic and non-Christian readers should not be expected to know it by heart.

 Done—cited to Barber. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• They believed in Papal primacy. That the Pope, as heir of St Peter, was the hierachical leader of all Christendom, including Byzantium. Secular rulers were only appointees who could be removed. 1. The text in bold is not explicitly verified by the cited source which refers to the Byzantine Church in this context. 2. There have always been many secular rulers who are only appointees. What is the novelty?

• Who is Augustin Fliche?

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Explain "simony" with two or three words.

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Eventually, the reformist faction within the Roman Church took the lead... This fact is mentioned twice in the section's second and third sentences.

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Despite this, this faction created an ideological framework and a cohort within the clergy who viewed themselves as God's agents for the moral and spiritual renewal of Christendom. The cited source (Latham) does not verify the sentence. (Latham writes of the Cluny Reform, not about the Gregorian Reforms.)

• Is Latham's PoV about the preconditions for the crusading movement widely accepted by medievalists who have published general works on the crusading movement or monographies about its origins?

— Not done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Why was the reference to Latham deleted if his PoV is described? Even if he is not mentioned, the relevance of his thoughts should be verified as per
  WP:DUE
  .

— Not done This and the above. Latham is

WP:RS, the view is uncontentious and one of several touched on,Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

• I am not sure that Latham's PoV is widely accepted by historians who write of the crusades. Nikolas Jaspert, a German historian lists more than three preconditions for the crusades (Jaspert, Nikolas (2006) [2003]. The Crusades.
  ISBN 978-0-4153-5968-9
  .). Jaspert "widely published on the crusades", according to the back cover of his books. Latham often refers to the "feudal revolution", a concept no more universally accepted by historians (comp. Bull p. 22).

Yes, Jaspert is interesting on this. He doesn't contradict Latham who is applying

WP:RS in this. Jaspert's 8 elements, all of which are touched on in the Major Features section are describing features that supported the enthusiasm for the first crusade, not the development of the movement itself. Even so he supports Latham's first two points in that all his factors are either related to reform of the church or the creation of crusading as a social institution. He does not touch on the third point about the creation of war making capability, but this is because he is not talking about the creation of a movement. Only the enthusiasm. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

• 1. Actually, Jaspert does write of the making of the war making capability in his last point: "the view that it was possible to find forgiveness for these sins through a special act of penance before God, and even to win remission of all temporal penalties for sin by taking part in a sanctified military expedition." Jaspert and Latham are discussing the same issue (why did the crusading movement begin), but they did not come to the same conclusion. 3. Is Latham's PoV widely cited by historians who study the crusades? I think the article's over reliance on Latham's PoV is not fully in line with WP:NPOV and WP:DUE.

• Three initiatives were necessary before this could be but into action. Firstly, this reform of the Latin Church into an independent force that was motivated by the belief it had divine authority for religious renewal. This belief would lead to conflicts with the Holy Roman Empire, Muslim states, other Christian groups, and pagans. Secondly, the creation of crusading as a social institution through which the church could act militarily supported by armed nobility considered Knights of Christ. Could you quote the text from Morris' cited work verifying the statements? Morris writes of chivalry, not about the crusades/crusading movement on the cited page.

Morris is literally describing the enlistment of knights for the crusades, the point in question and throws in a description of the meaning of milites Christi. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• So Morris does not verify the whole quote; consequently the quote still represents Latham's PoV without a reference to this fact.

• Reform of the Latin Church identity:... Does "Latin Church" differ from "western Church" mentioned in the section's previous paragraph?

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The Latin Church underwent a significant transformation, becoming an independent force motivated by divine authority for religious revitalisation. Was the Latin Church indeed motivated by divine authority?

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This new identity led to conflicts with various entities, including the Holy Roman Empire, Muslim states, other Christian sects, and pagans Who and why was brought into conflict with these groups? Does the article suggest that relationship between the Christian communities/polities/leaders and Muslim polities, heretics "sects" and pagans had been peaceful before the Gregorian Reforms? Can the Eastern Orthodox Church be described as a sect?

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This belief would lead to conflicts with the Holy Roman Empire, Muslim states, other Christian groups, and pagans. What about the previous conflicts between the papacy and the Holy Roman Emperors, Muslim states, Byzantines, and pagan Magyars?

• ...milites Christi or knights of Christ... The cited author (Morris) does not verify the translation. He describes "milites Christi" as an "expression which until then had been the monopoly of monks had been extended to knights".

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Section "Background" implies that solely the Gregorian Reform (or Cluniac Reform?) was responsible for the Crusades. I think this approach is quite unusual. Borsoka (talk) 11:08, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

— Not done Not the crusades, the crusading movement Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Even so, it is unusual. Borsoka (talk) 03:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Section "Christianity and war" is quite confusing from chronological and logical perspective: Augustine is mentioned in at least three separate paragraphs, so the section does not clearly summarise his views. The section obviously mixes Augustine's views with his high medieval interpretators' thoughts (I will add at least one example below). As the section does not point at the differences between the classical just war theory and Augustine's views, and between Augustine's views and the high medieval theology of Christian holy war, the development of this important aspect of crusading ideology remains unclear.

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The section is a little bit clearer, but it is still unclear who came to what conclusion and when. (For instance, you write of bellum sacrum and religious war in two sentences without clarifying the relationship between the two terms.)
• Erdmann documented in The Origin of the Idea of Crusade the three stages of the development of a Christian institution of crusade:... 1. Erdmann's work published in 1935 should be cited instead of Latham. 2. Is Erdmann's PoV still widely accepted by historians? For instance, Pope Gregory I is not mentioned in connection with the development of just war/holy war theories in other works cited in the article.

1) Erdmann anda Latham are using different techniques and describing different things. Even so they do not contradict each other and both are valid. 2) Tyerman writes that "Erdmann's thesis survives" and quotes H. E. J. Cowdrey, an academic expert on the Gregorian reforms as "all subsequent enquiry has in the last analysis sprung from " Erdmann on page 191 of the 2011 work cited in the article. He also mention Gregory I in God' War, as does Barber, Morris, Madden and Riley-Smith. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 1. Sorry, I do not understand your reference to Latham. I did not mention Latham in this context. 2. Gregory I is not mentioned in connection with the crusades/crusading movement in any of the books you refer to above. 3. Consequently, could you quote text from the cited sources confirming that Erdmann's three stages of the development of the crusades are still widely accepted? Borsoka (talk) 17:10, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The Church defined crusading in legal and theological terms based on the theory of holy war and the concept of Christian pilgrimage. The Church defined crusading in legal and theological terms based on the theory of holy war and the concept of Christian pilgrimage. The theology developed from a merger of two themes. Firstly, the wars fought by the Israelites in the Old Testament. It was believed these were instigated and assisted by God. Secondly, the Christocentric concept of forming an individual relationship with Christ that came from the New Testament. Holy war was based on bellum justum which was the Greco-Roman just war theory. This was Christianised by a 4th-century theologian called Augustine of Hippo, and canon lawyers developed this further in the 11th century into bellum sacrum. This is what became the paradigm of Christian holy war. Maier writes of four principal elements: holy war theology, the model of pilgrimage, Old Testament history, and New Testament theology, thus this and the subsequent sentences do not reflect Maier's thoughts.

— Not done all are covered Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• 1. However, their presentation in the article differs from Maier's approach. 2. Tyerman's cited work does not verify the sentence in context, because Tyerman writes of the development of Christian just war theory centuries before the crusades.

• Theology merged Old Testament Israelite wars that were instigated and assisted by God with New Testament Christocentric views on forming individual relationships with Christ. What does this mean? I doubt that Israelite wars were any time merged with Christocentric views, first of all because of chronological reasons.

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• ...Israelite wars that were instigated and assisted by God... Were these wars indeed instigated and assisted by God?

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• ...canon lawyers developed it from the 11th century into bellum sacrum, the paradigm of Christian holy war. Maier mentions theologians as well. Could you name some of the theologians and canon lawyers?

— Not done too detailed Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• However, the text in the article does not reflect the cited work. Perhaps, you could clarify that Anselm of Lucca is one of the canon lawyers, to introduce him.

• ...his supporter Anselm of Lucca consolidated the just war theories. Whose just war theories? What is the outcome of this consolidation?

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• No, the new text (Later, Anselm of Lucca consolidated the writing on just war theories into Collectio Canonum or Collection of Canon Law.) is still unclear.

• In the 11th century, the Church sponsored conflict with Muslims on the southern peripheries of Christendom, including the siege of Barbastro and the Norman conquest of the Sicily. Absolutely out of context statement.

— Not done Yes it is in context, that of a church reformed involving itself in warfare. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it relevant for the crusading movement? Above you argued that pre-Crusades conflicts are not relevant. Without a proper Background section the article is bombing our readers with fragmentary pieces of information without context.

• Augustine's principles formed the basis of a doctrine of religious war that was later developed in the 13th century by Thomas Aquinas, canon lawyers, and theologians. In the 13th century these principles formed the foundation of a doctrine of religious war developed by Thomas Aquinas and others. Redundant with the exemption of its reference to Thomas Aquinas. Tyerman writes that Aquinas is responsible for "producing a codified theory of Christian just war".

— Not done he was not alone Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Perhaps, but the statement does not reflect the cited source. 2. What is the difference between bellum sacrum mentioned in a previous sentence, and religious wars?

• This movement's influence is apparent in Pope Urban II's speeches... Why are Urban II's speeches relevant?

— Not done it is the foundation of the movement Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• What is the connection between Latham's three pre-conditions for crusading (mentioned in section "Background") and Erdmann's three stages (listed in section "Christianity and holy war"). Why is Latham cited instead of Erdmann? Is Erdmann's PoV is widely accepted by medievalists who published general works on the crusading movement or its origin? I think the three bullet points could be distributed in the text in chronological order to better understand how the Christian ideology of Holy War developed.

— Not done Similar related but alternayive view. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The Church viewed Rome as the Patrimony of Saint Peter. This enabled the application of canon law to justify various Italian wars waged by the church as purely defensive crusades to protect theoretical Christian territory. Absolutely out of context. Borsoka (talk) 12:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

— Not done absolutely in context, Political crusades Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Put yourself in our readers' shoes. They will not understand the statement, for them it is absolutely out of context.

• By the 11th century, the Latin Church developed a system that provided for the remission and absolution of sin in return for contrition, confession, and penitential acts. The Latin Church had formulated a system enabling forgiveness and pardon for sins in exchange for genuine remorse, admission of wrongdoing, and acts of penance. 1. Why? 2. Perhaps "contrition, confession, and penitential acts" could be rephrased to avoid close paraphrasing. 3. The term "confession" could be linked to the more specific "sacrament of penance".

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done— rephrased. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done— rephrased. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• ...in support of his causes, if selflessly given. Gregory VII resolved this with the offer of forgiveness for sin resulting from supporting him in Church-sanctioned violence as long as service was altruistically given. Could you quote the text verifying the words in bold?

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gregory VII offered all who fought for his cause, in whatever fashion, absolution of their sins and the prospect of eternal salvation. Provided their motivation was grounded on selflessness and faith not gain, such soldiers could combine penance and violence.Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Is this from one of the cited works? Borsoka (talk) 02:23, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

— Done Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Latham does not verify the statement in the cited work, and Tyerman's cited work (according to its preview) does not contain similar statement in the cited pages.

• Is reference 11 necessary? (Furthermore, Tyerman explains Erdman's PoV in the cited page.)

— Not done no longer ref 11?? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done::— rephrased. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This was developed by subsequent Popes into the granting of plenary indulgence that reduced all God-imposed temporal penalties. In time subsequent Popes developed this into the granting of plenary indulgence that reduced all temporal penalties that were considered God-imposed. Could you quote the text verifying the statement, or fix the page in the citation? Did indeed God impose temporal or any other kind of panalties?
• At the Council of Clermont in November 1095, Urban II effectively founded the crusading movement with two directives: the exemption from atonement for those who journeyed to Jerusalem to free the Church; and that while doing so all goods and property were protected. Why is this in the "Background" section? Why is the protection of property mentioned in section "Penance and indulgence"?
• The weakness of conventional theologies in the face of crusading euphoria is shown in a letter critical of Pope Paschal II from the writer Sigebert of Gembloux to the crusader Robert II, Count of Flanders. Sigebert referred to Robert's safe return from Jerusalem but completely avoided mentioning the crusade. The weakness of conventional theology when confronted by crusading excitement was evident in a letter critical of Pope Paschal II from the writer Sigebert of Gembloux to the crusader Robert II, Count of Flanders. Sigebert referred to Robert's safe return from Jerusalem, but completely avoided any mention of the crusade. The text in bold represent copyvio; the remaining text is not verified by the cited source (it does not mention to whom Sigebert addressed the letter); The two sentences make no sense, because they ignore the cited source's main message: "Sigebert attacked the idea of penitential war". Furthermore, why is something happening years after the First Crusade mentioned in section "Background"?
• It was Calixtus II who first promised the same privileges and protections of property to the families of crusaders. Later, Calixtus II promised identical privileges and protections of property to the families of crusaders. 1. Reference 22 Riley-Smith does not verify the statement. 2. The text in bold is not verified by any of the two sources. 3. Why is something happening decades after the First Crusade mentioned in section "Background"? 2. Not the pope, but the council promised privileges and protection for the crusaders' families. 2. Why is the protection of property is mentioned in section "Penance and indulgence"?
• Under the influence of Bernard of Clairvaux, Eugenius III revised Urban's ambiguous position with the view that the crusading indulgence was remission from God's punishment for sin, as opposed to only remitting ecclesiastical confessional discipline. Eugenius III revised Urban's more ambiguous position by viewing the crusading indulgence as remission from God's punishment for sin, not only remission of ecclesiastical confessional punishment. 1. The text in bold is not verified. 2. Urban's ambifious position is not previously mentioned. 3. What is Eugenius's conclusion. 4. Why is something happening nearly a half century after the First Crusade mentioned in section "Background"?
• Innocent III emphasised crusader oaths and clarified that the absolution of sins was a gift from God, rather than a reward for the crusaders' suffering. 1. Reference 25 Tyerman does not verify the text. 2. Why is something happening more than a century after the First Crusade mentioned in section "Background"?
• With his 1213 bull Quia maior, he appealed to all Christians, not just the nobility, offering the possibility of vow redemption without crusading. In the 1213 bull, Quia maior, he appealed to not just the nobility but to all with the offer of vow redemption without crusading. In this a precedent was set for the trade in spiritual rewards which became a practice that scandalised devout Christians. 1. Could you quote the text verifying that indeed the bull Quia maior offered the possibility... 2. Did he appeal to the Orthodox, Nestorians, Copts also? 3. Which vow? The crusading vow is not previously mentioned in the article. 4. Why did he do this? 5. Are we sure that the payment did not constitute as an act of crusading? 5. Why is something happening nearly a half century after the First Crusade mentioned in section "Background"?
• This set a precedent for trading in spiritual rewards... No spiritual rewards are mentioned in the previous sentence.
• ...a practice that scandalised devout Christians and became a contributing cause of the 16th century Protestant Reformation. Could you quote the text verifying the statement?
• As late as the 16th century, writers sought redemptive solutions in the traditionalist wars of the cross, while others – such as English martyrologist John Foxe – saw these as examples of papist superstition, corruption of religion, idolatry, and profanation. 1. The text in bold is not verified, the text in italic is closely paraphrased. Texts in red represent copyvio or are closely paraphrased. 2. Why is Tyerman's encyclopedic article about "Historiography, Modern" (one of the cited sources) revelant in connection with "Penance and indulgence"? 3. What is the relevance of Foxe's PoV in connection with "Penance and indulgence"? 4. Why is something from the 16th century mentioned in section "Background"? Borsoka (talk) 03:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Critics blamed the Roman Church for the failure of the crusades. War against the infidel was laudable, but not crusading based on doctrines of papal power, indulgences, and against Christian religious dissidents such as the Albigensian and Waldensians. Justifying war on juristic ideas of just war to which Lutherans, Calvinists, and Roman Catholics could all subscribe, and the role of indulgences, diminished in Roman Catholics tracts on the Turkish wars. Alberico Gentili and Hugo Grotius developed international laws of war that discounted religion as a cause, in contrast to popes, who persisted in issuing crusade bulls for generations. 1. Original synthesis? 2. Why are events happening in the 16th and 17th centuries mentioned in section "Background"? Borsoka (talk) 11:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The fighting of wars against the infidel was considered laudable. Crusading based on doctrines of papal power, indulgences, and against Christian religious dissidents such as the Albigensian and Waldensians was decried. War could be justified on grounds to which Lutherans, Calvinists, and Roman Catholics could all subscribe, which led to a decline in the role of indulgences in Roman Catholics tracts on the Turkish wars. Alberico Gentili and Hugo Grotius developed international laws of war that discounted religion as a cause, in contrast to popes, who persisted in issuing crusade bulls for generations. 1. Texts in red represent copyvio or are closely paraphrased. 2. Whose PoV is mentioned in the first sentence? 3. What are the Turkish wars? 3. Who are Gentili and Grotius?

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• If chivalry was in its infancy at the beginning of the crusading movement (as the article states), why is "Knights and chivalry" mentioned in the "Background" section?

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• At the beginning of the crusading movement, chivalry was in its infancy; but it went on to define the ideas and values of knights, and was central to the crusading movement.}} The reference to Flori's article should be fixed to verify the statement in italics.

• When crusading began chivalry was in its infancy, but in time it played a central role in the crusading ethos, by shaping the ideals and principles of knights. Texts in red represent copyvio or are closely paraphrased.

• Texts from the 11th and 12th centuries portray a class of knights who were comparatively closer in status to peasants within the preceding generations. 1. The text is still unclear: were their fathers peasants or only close to peasants. 2. The texts in italics is not verified. (I think the cited encyclopedic article simply says that there were knights of peasant/humble origin.)Borsoka (talk) 01:23, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• In the 13th century knighthood became equated with nobility, as a social class with legal status, closed to non-nobles. The texts in italics contradict the cited source (Flori).

• It was only by the 13th century that knighthood became equated with nobility and was a social class with legal status, no longer open to non-nobles. The text in bold contradicts the cited source (Flori).

• Chivalric development grew from a society dominated by the possession of castles. The sentence makes no sense and is not verified by the cited source (Flori): development cannot grow from a society, and possession of castles cannot dominate a society.
• Those who defended these became knights. Copyvio. Some explanation?

• Society was dominated by the possession of castles and those who defended these became knights. Texts in red represent copyvio or are closely paraphrased.

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• ...coupled with the growing naval capability of Italy's maritime republics,... Could you quote the text from the cited sources verifying that there is any connection between the naval capability of the maritime republics and knighthood?
• Contrary to the representation in the romances... Which romances?
• Instead, raids and sieges predominated, for which there was only a minimal role for knights. A previous sentence claims that those who defended the castles became knights.
• Knighthood required combat training, which created solidarity and gave rise to combat as a sport. The cited source (Flori) writes of special forms of combat.
• Crusade preachers used tournaments and other gatherings to obtain vows of support from attending dignitaries, begin persuasive campaigns, and announce a leader's taking of the cross. 1. This happened from the Second Crusade. Why is it mentioned in section "Background"? 2. Close paraphrasing and original synthesis (Lloyd mentions church synods when referring to the "attending dignitaries", and church synods can hardly be associated with "Knights and chivalry".
• ...medieval institutions were immature in feudal Europe... The statement makes no sense.
• ...the crusades in the Levant were typically unimpressive. PoV statement by a 19th-century historian. Is his view accepted by modern historians?
• Developing vernacular literature glorified the idea of adventure and the virtues of valour, largesse, and courtesy. This created an ideal of the perfect knight. Chivalry was a way of life, a social and moral model that evolved into a myth. The texts in bold represent copyvio.
• The chivalric romantic ideals of excellence, martial glory, and carnal—even adulterous—love conflicted with the spiritual views of the Church. Texts in italics are unverified, in bold represent close paraphrasing/copyvio.

• These ideals of excellence, martial glory, and romantic love... The adjective contradicts the cited source (Flori).

• WritersLiterature lauded those who fought for the Church; others were excommunicated. Writers? 1. Literature? 2. The text in italics is not verified by the cited source (Flori).
• By the 11th century, the Church developed liturgical blessings sanctifying new knights. The Church developed liturgical blessings to sanctify new knights, The text in italics is not verified by the cited source. (Flori's text could be summarised as "By the 11th century, new knights were blessed at their investiture by priests." or something similar.)
• In 1100, kings depicted themselves as knights to indicate their power. 1. Texts in italics are not verified by the cited source. 2. Where did they depict themselves? 3. I think this sentence contradicts the section's third sentence: "11th and 12th century texts depict a class of knights that were closer in status to peasants...".
• Reference 43 is obviously wrong. Borsoka (talk) 04:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Could you list scholarly works verifying tha the the military orders can be mentioned in the background to the crusading movement?
• The section about the military orders lacks any inner coherence.
• The crusaders' propensity to follow the customs of their western European homelands meant that there were very few innovations adopted from the culture of the Crusader states. Three notable exceptions to this were the military orders, warfare, and fortifications. Is this a good introduction for the military orders? Why were the military orders established?
• The Knights Hospitaller were founded in Jerusalem before the First Crusade but added a martial element to their ongoing medical functions to become a much larger military order. The cited source (Asbridge) does not verify the statement.
• In this way, knighthood entered the previously monastic and ecclesiastical sphere. 1. The texts in bold represent copyvio. DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 15:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC) 2. Prawer's PoV about the Hospitallers' role as pioneers of the military orders is quite marginal. Other authors cited in the article make it clear that the Knights Templar were the first military order (Asbridge pp. 168-169, Barber p. 135, Tyerman [2019] pp. 151-155). 3. If the Knights Hospitaller were indeed established before the First Crusade, what is the connection between the origin of the military orders and the Crusader states?[reply]
• Military orders – like the Knights Hospitaller and Knights Templar – provided Latin Christendom's first professional armies, to support the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the other crusader states. The cited author (Asbridge) does not verify the stament.
• These orders became supranational organizations with papal support, leading to rich donations of land and revenue across Europe. The text in bold represent both close paraphrasing/copyvio and original research. (Asbridge does not associate the development of the military orders into supranational organizations with papal support.)

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:01, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In time, the orders developed into autonomous powers. 1. When? 2. Asbridge is more specific.
• After the fall of Acre,... Some explanation?
• Section "Common people" mainly presents facts from the period when the crusading movement flourished. Why are these facts presented as belonging to the background to the crusading movement?
• Women also formed part of the armies. Were all women who joined the crusading armies commoners as the section's title suggests?
• Historians have increasingly researched the motivations of the poor who joined the early crusades in large numbers and engaged in popular unsanctioned events during the 13th and 14th centuries. Text in italics belongs to historiography.
• ...amongst the poor, Christianity and crusading were aggressive. Texts in bold are not verified.
• An emphasis on popular preaching, developed in the 12th century, generated a wealth of useful resources. 1. The text in bold represent copyvio/close paraphrasing. 2. Does the statement imply that the Church started to urge commoners to join the crusades? If not, why the commoners were targeted by preachers?

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The most popular example began in 1268,... The text in bold contradicts the cited source.
• The popular but short-lived outbreaks of crusading enthusiasm after Acre fell to Egypt were largely driven by eschatological perceptions of crusading amongst the poor rather than the advanced, professionalized plans advocated by theorists. The sentence is not verified.
• Pilgrimage was not a mass activity. Copyvio and original research. (The cited source specifically writes of pilgrimages to Jerusalem.)

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:15, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• In this way, what was known as the remotest place in 1099... The text in bold is not verified.
• The literate classes were hostile to this particular unauthorized crusade but mytho-historicized it so effectively that it is one of the most evocative verbal artefacts from the Middle Ages that remained in European and American imagination. The texts in italics are not verified. Borsoka (talk) 03:23, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• Who is Humbert of Romans?
• Chroniclers used the ethno-cultural terms "barbarians" or barbarae nationes, which were inherited from the Greeks of antiquity, for "others" or "aliens", which were thus differentiated from the self-descriptive term "Latins" that the crusaders used for themselves. The texts in italics does not present the views of the cited author, Jubb. 1. Jubb specifically writes of the chronicles of the First Crusade. 2. She specifically writes that the Greeks used the term for 'others' "alien to their urban civilisation". 3. She does not say that "Latins" is a self-descriptive term used by the crusaders for themselves.
• Jubb's work is not properly listed among the sources: isbn and pages are needed, and the doi points to another study from the same book.
• Although there are no specific references to crusading in the 11th century chanson de geste Chanson de Roland, the author, for propaganda purposes, represented Muslims as monsters and idolators. The text in italics is not presented as a fact but as a possibility in the cited source.
• Visual cues were used to represent Muslims as evil, dehumanized, and monstrous aliens with black complexions and diabolical physiognomies. 1. Texts in bold represent copyvio. 2. The sentence does not summarize the main message of the cited author (Jubb). She says that a "black/white dichotomy" was used in medieval literature, especially in popular works, but it symbolised "religious and cultural difference, as much as race". She mentions "diabolical physiognomies" only when writing of the Song of Roland.

— DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This portrayal remained in western literature long after the territorial conflict of the crusades had faded into history. 1. The sentence is closely paraphrased. 2. The cited author (Jubb) specifically writes of the medieval period following the age of the crusades.

 Done—Norfolkbigfish (talk) 16:22, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The term "Saracen" designated a religious community rather than a racial group, while the word "Muslim" is absent from the chronicles. 1. Texts in bold represent copyvio/close paraphrasing. 2. Which religious community?

— DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The conflict was seen as a Manichean contest between good and evil. 1. The text in italics is not verified by Jubb. 2. Who saw "the conflict" as a Manichean contest?

— Not done 1) it 2) Christian clergy Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Historians have been shocked by the inaccuracy and hostility involved in such representations, which included crude insults to Mohammad, caricatures of Islamic rituals, and the representation of Muslims as libidinous gluttons, blood-thirsty savages, and semi-human. Texts in bold represent copyvio/close paraphrasing.

— DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Historian Jean Flori argues that to self-justify Christianity's move from pacifism to warfare, their enemies needed to be ideologically destroyed. 1. The article does not refer to Christian pacifism in previous sentences. 2. Flori's work should be cited or at least mentioned in a footnote.

— DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 15:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• From where did Christianity move to warfare? Or why did they need to destroy their enemies ideologically for this move?

• Poets often relied on the patronage of leading crusaders, so they extolled the values of the nobility, the feudal status quo, chivalry, martial prowess, and the idea of the Holy Land being God's territory usurped and despoiled. 1. The text in italics contradicts the cited author (Routledge) who does not make connection between patronage and statements in the second part of the sentence. 2. Text in bold is not verified (actually, Routledge writes of the restoration of status quo ante.)

— DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 15:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• The reformist Church's identity-interest complex framed Islam as a particular form of heresy. The text in bold represents copyvio.

— DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Muslim rule in formerly Christian territory was an "unjust" confiscation of Christian property, and this persecution of Christians required repayment. 1. The text in italics is closely paraphrased. 2. The text is bold is not verified by the cited author (Latham), since he does not define the persecution of Christians as the unjust confiscation of Christian property.

— DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Islamic polities' own identity-interest complexes led them to be equally violently opposed to the restoration of Christian rule. Copyvio.

— DoneNorfolkbigfish (talk) 12:57, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]