Talk:Elon Musk/Archive 3

Unless you have scanned the entire universe (and most of it is likely beyond the range of our telescopes) you cannot know Elon is wrong. 1.132.96.17 (talk) 23:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

We are, or should be, using this Talk page to improve the article. If you have a source for something that might be usable in the article, have at it, after all,

WP:ANYONECANEDIT

, although for controversial topics or material where sources don't agree, you'll have a much better time discussing it on the Talk page first.

But the other stuff needs to go.

soapboxing. Also, focus on the article, not your opinion of other editor's opinions. Cheers. N2e (talk

) 19:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

• CHARGED: Electric Vehicles Magazine - (Editor’s Note 6/17/16 4PM EST: While onstage, Musk stated that Lithium is the third most common element in the universe which is not accurate. In fact, Lithium is the 33rd most common element in Earth’s crust.)

I don't want to be tactless in the way I insert this into the article, but it is important enough for magazine editors to correct, therefore it is important enough to add to this article, but I think it should be written up by another editor. 207.161.208.72 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:30, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Elon Musk and his companies appear to be most active on social media and most of the news published about him originates from his tweets. Wikipedia can't claim to be an open balanced resource if it ignores the bulk of his online presence. At the very minimum his twitter account http://www.twitter.com/elonmusk should be included in external links and possibly his biggest facebook group http://www.facebook,com/groups/elonmusk which covers even more news items than his websites. 1.132.96.17 (talk) 00:05, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

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elon musk starred in Transcendance(2014) as well as Machete Kills(2013) at falcon 9 site. Bobby98gill (talk) 18:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

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Need to make change to name and a few other rather change my name in real life and have my real name on internet Bdc1040 (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:54, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

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The sidebar in the article is using the "nationality" field to describe the countries Mr. Musk is a citizen of. Instead of the "nationality" field, the "citizenship" one should be used. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citizenship_and_nationality — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alessandros91 (talk • contribs)

Done DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 05:24, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

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On the right hand side of the page, it states his net worth as of January 29, 2017. But at the very beginning of the summary, it declares his net worth as of June 2016. So I propose that we change the net worth in the summary to the one on the reference of [6]. 44HY (talk) 00:14, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. There is other text that would be affected by the requested edit.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  06:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

The section on the boring company should be edited to indicate this. Tbodt (talk) 04:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Elon Musk attended Queens College, University of Toronto in Canada [not Queens University, Kingston, Ontario, CanadaCite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).].

A related discussion about Amber Heard and her relationship with Elon Musk is at Talk:Amber Heard#Amber Heard and Elon Musk. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 09:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

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Add Elon's interview with Neil deGrasse Tyson on StartTalk Radio^[1] to the bottom Interview section. Extremely popular podcast episode. Jonnymhenderson (talk) 22:42, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a

open channel

) 22:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

This is the lamest kind of

Does anyone mind if the archiving timeout is set back to 90 days, where it used to be? With a relatively small talk page, 30 days seems too quick. EdJohnston (talk)

• Support Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:36, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I have changed it to 90 days. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:29, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Ashlee Vance's biography of Elon Musk discusses in Appendix 1 the irregularities around Musk's Penn degrees. The wiki information says he received his degrees at 24 (1995) when Vance says that she "called Penn's registrar and verified" that Penn granted him the degrees in May 1997. I can't edit this article because of protection, so can someone else please make the change? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JJCaesar (talk • contribs) 01:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

@JJCaesar: This appears to contradict the source given, but is not worded exactly. You state irregularities were present, so could you please provide the exact quote from the book, or even offer an image under fair use on an external website? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 15:32, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Here are some select quotes from the book: "While playing detective, O'Reilly unearthed some information about Musk's past that's arguably more interesting than the allegations in the lawsuit. He found that the University of Pennsylvania granted Musk's degrees in 1997 - two years later than what Musk has cited. I called Penn's registrar and verified these findings. Copies of Musk's records show that he received a dual degree in economics and physics in May 1997. ... Musk also had an explanation for the weird timing on his degrees from Penn. 'I had a History and an English credit that I agreed with Penn that I would do at Stanford,' he said. 'Then I put Stanford on deferment. Later, Penn's requirements changed so that you don't need the English and History credit. So then they awarded me the degree in '97 when it was clear I was not going to go to grad school, and their requirement was no longer there. I finished everything that was needed for a Wharton degree in '94. They'd actually mailed me a Wharton degree. I decided to spend another year and finished the physics degree, but there there was that History and English credit thing. I was only reminded about the History and English thing when I tried to get an H-1B visa and called the school to get a copy of my graduation certificate, and they said I hadn't graduated. Then they looked into the new requirements, and said it was fine."

Basically, it should say the Penn degrees were awarded in May 1997, as the facts indicate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JJCaesar (talk • contribs) 00:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)  Done

@Jytdog: readded this paragraph:

Musk has hinted at the existence of Neuralink a few times over the last six months or so. More recently, Musk told a crowd in Dubai, “Over time I think we will probably see a closer merger of biological intelligence and digital intelligence.” He added that “it's mostly about the bandwidth, the speed of the connection between your brain and the digital version of yourself, particularly output." On Twitter, Musk has responded to inquiring fans about his progress on a so-called “neural lace,” which is sci-fi shorthand for a brain-computer interface humans could use to improve themselves.^[1]

First, the source provided does not match any of the content. Second, I fail to see how any of this is more relevant to Elon Musk than to Neuralink. I think the relevant information should be correctly cited and moved to Neuralink, as I attempted to do.

--Λυδαcιτγ

I have self-reverted - thanks for pointing out that the content was not supported by the sources. Jytdog (talk) 21:05, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

The recent Hyperloop edit links to a reference which requires subscription in order to read the text. A better reference should be found.MaynardClark (talk) 18:15, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me, I will try to find a reference without one. Skim 15:13, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

A

• Elon Musk inherited a lifetime of adventure from his Sask. family, Regina Leader-Post, Saskatchewan, Canada, May 2017.

@N2e: Thanks for sharing. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 09:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

In Elon Musk responds to story of him putting his assistant through a 2-week test it says Musk conceded that the biography overall was not entirely flawed, calling it "mostly correct," but saying that the story was "rife with errors and never independently fact-checked". We should take a grain of salt when using this source. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 10:58, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. It is a

verifiable source, it is not the verifiable source. Other sources may, and do in some places, conflict. N2e (talk

) 10:49, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Musk was born as a South African, and lived there for his first 18 years. He was in Canada for only 6 years (though he became a citizen), and has been a resident and citizen of the USA for some years. I accept that he should be called SA-born, but why "Canadian American"? He is no longer a Canadian.125.236.202.112 (talk) 02:03, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

I think the use of Canadian or "Canadian-American" here is referring to his ethnic origins.

talk

) 04:30, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Canadian Americans are American citizens or nationals who were born in and/or largely grew up in Canada, but later moved into the United States.[citation needed] It can also be used to refer to American-born citizens who either have parents who immigrated from Canada or have significant Canadian ancestry and/or identity. The term is particularly apt when applied or self-applied to people with strong ties to Canada, such as those who have lived a significant portion of their lives or were educated in Canada, and then relocated to the United States. First paragraph of

Canadian American. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk

) 11:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

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Net worth in the first paragraph is outdated and is now $21.1B as of 10/12/17 according to Forbes Gradam5 (talk) 18:48, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: It is impractical to update it frequently. The date is mentioned and so readers will know it is out of date. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:39, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

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IMPOSSIBLE

where in May 1997 he received a Bachelor of Science degree in physics

BECAUSE

In 1995, at age 24, Musk moved to California to begin a PhD

SUGGEST

where in May 1994... 197.91.224.53 (talk) 10:04, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide

reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Emir of Wikipedia (talk

) 10:54, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Godidier (talk) 06:27, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello Godidier. "Notional" is an actual word. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:34, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

A related discussion about Amber Heard and her relationship with Elon Musk is at Talk:Amber Heard#Amber Heard and Elon Musk. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 09:57, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

• I think it should be discussed here because over there it's so bloody long that I think the point of the dicussion was lost on most people. Anyway, the fact of the situation that no source about relationships will ever be good enough for Wikipedia's exacting standards. Not even if they literally make Instagram posts tacitly saying "we're in a relationship" and "I've bonded with his kids so this is serious".^[1][2][3] Of course magazines like People have to add a little bit of puffery like "Amber Heard and Elon Musk just can’t keep their hands off of each other", because that's the celebrity journalism nature. But People is a way better source than rags like the Daily Mail or US Weekly when it comes to these things. Acknowledging sources on relationships doesn't mean we're turning Wikipedia into a gossip encyclopedia because real relationships aren't gossip and no one ever puts things like "Amber Heard and Elon Musk just can’t keep their hands off of each other" on this site anyway.^[4] Her dad confirmed the relationship too.^[5] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trillfendi (talk • contribs) 19:04, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

It's been a few months since you posted this here

@

WP:SILENCE to mean that the new consensus is to include the information. Emir of Wikipedia (talk

) 19:46, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure that relationship status presented by the post is really a milestone event for the other things Musk is doing. I'm not sure it's actually notable enought to be put into this article. Bknutsen (talk) 15:56, 16 October 2017 (UTC)Bknutsen

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I think that a small bit should be added to the Boring company section. In an interview with TED's Head Curator, Chris Anderson, Musk claims that this is a hobby company of his, and that he can reduce the overall cost of digging by at least a factor of 10 by reducing tunnel diameter and efficiency of the boring machine.

^[1]

Bknutsen (talk) 02:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC)Bknutsen Bknutsen (talk) 02:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Done Providing a reference link will speed response to this type of edit request in the future. Thank you for providing enough information that I was able to find one myself. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

@Eggishorn I referenced the TED conference video from youtube. There's a footnote at the end, that being said though, I'm fairly new to editing articles so I may not have properly followed convention — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bknutsen (talk • contribs) 16:35, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

In this article, the following text appears:

"At the age of 17, Musk was accepted into Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, for undergraduate study. In 1992, after spending two years at Queen's University..."

Musk was born in 1971, so he turned 17 in 1988. So how could "two years at Queen's University" bring us to 1992?? Perhaps if he was "accepted" in 1988 and "enrolled" in 1989, then two years would bring us to 1991; but we still don't get to 1992. Clearly either the year "1992" is incorrect, or there is a lot of "hidden information in the quote above.

My guess is that the year "1992" is just incorrect and should be corrected.

192.251.46.113 (talk) 18:32, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Might be worth reading Talk:Elon_Musk/Archive_3#Education. I do think that you could be onto something. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:04, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Add a Honorary Doctorate from AGH Cracow received on 14'th June 2017 to the appropriate list.

Appropriate reference (in Polish) below:

^[1]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lagomorph~plwiki (talk • contribs)

Can someone please check the reference for me? I am unable to access it. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Lil Uzi made a song with Pharrell Williams, and they said Elon Musk's name. It is very pivotal that this be added towards Musk's achievements, as it highly surpasses anything he has done.Sam Homes (talk) 00:04, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

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Should we include this in Elon's intro?

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US768&q=elon+musk+rocket+travel+city&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiS_77I8JbXAhVFzmMKHfg6DBgQvwUIJigA&biw=1024&bih=712

It's a proposal, nothing formally established. 205.153.48.25 (talk) 22:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

It is one of several planned uses for the already-announced and under-active-development new launch vehicles of SpaceX: the

BFR

. There is more prose and citations in that article if any editor wants to reflect that "additional use". It is well cited, and notable.

Moreover, it is specifically mentioned in the long-form Rolling Stone article from mid-November 2017, now used as a source in the Musk article in several places. Musk calls it "Earth-to-Earth" in that article.

So I would say, yes, it can—and probably should—be included in the article lede as a few words, as long as someone takes the time to more fully explicate it and source it in the body of the article. Cheers. N2e (talk) 16:05, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Does Musk self-identify as an "African-American" (as opposed to a "South African American")? Could we identify him as such? I didn't find any info on this issue in the article, so if anyone has any, it would be great if they could add it to the article. 2.7.75.184 (talk) 15:10, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

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Please change Significaant development on the vehicles began to Significant development on the vehicles because significant is misspelled. Gerard.martin (talk) 04:57, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

 Done General Ization ^Talk 05:07, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Shouldn't the name "PayPal" be in the lede? Yes, for people who happen to know, it's implied by X.Com, but PayPal is the consumer-brand name with which Musk is most strongly associated. - Jmabel | Talk 16:31, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

It is: "... and founder of X.com, which merged with Confinity and took the name PayPal." General Ization ^Talk 16:40, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

(Reopened Edit request with better title.) --Guy Macon (talk) 15:30, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Why does his one tweet about nyquil get a section to itself? Seems like its nitpicking. He clearly wouldn't encourage alcohol and drugs to be mixed. 76.119.86.208 (talk) 04:02, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Jack Frost (talk) 12:48, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Looks like he is talking about

WP:WEIGHT to various tweets? Go to the article and search on the word "Twitter" to see how much content we are sourcing to twitter. Too much? Are we making too much about what appear to be jokes? If I were a celebrity, would my Wikipedia page document the various times I have joked "Note to self: next time, edit Wikipedia after smoking crack" after making an error? (For the record, I never take drugs or alcohol with the sole exception of caffeine.) --Guy Macon (talk

) 15:30, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

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Elon Musk's net worth as of February, 2018, is $20.4 billion dollars. MoistNuggets (talk) 16:49, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Not done: please provide

reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBri^Talk

19:29, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@Kuyabribri: The source is given in the article, they just want us to update it. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

No change needs to be done right now though as the source currently says the amount stated in the article. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

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Please change "Net Worth" from 20.1 billion to 20.8 billion because Forbes, the currently listed source, has updated. Zennox1 (talk) 22:15, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Done As the net worth counter is in real time, I'm expecting a lot more of these sort of requests in the future. ChamithN (talk) 22:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Near the end of article it says NY state is paying $750m to build it, and will then lease it to Solarcity for peanuts. In the Solarcity section it says that Solarcity is committed to building it. They can't both be right. This is very important, right? Boscaswell talk 12:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

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68.33.78.182 (talk) 01:07, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Remove "Chairman of Solar City" and "Co-chairman of OpenAI" from the right-hand panel, both of which are no longer true.

Not done: please provide

reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. qwerty6811 :-) (talk

) 17:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I made the edits. That SolarCity was acquired is already sourced, for example under [2]. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 06:39, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

The section on education states: "At the age of 17, Musk was accepted into Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, for undergraduate study. In 1992, after spending two years at Queen's University, Musk transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, where in May 1997 he received a Bachelor of Science degree in physics from its College of Arts and Sciences..."

First of all, this implies that he was 19 in the year 1992. He wasn't. He would've been 19.

Next it states: "In 1995, at age 24, Musk moved to California to begin a PhD in applied physics and materials science at Stanford University, but left the program after two days to pursue his entrepreneurial aspirations..."

So either Musk was at U.Penn pursuing his Bachelor degree or he was in California enrolled for a PhD? Which is it? If both these things are simultaneously true, there should certainly be some clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parijatgarg (talk • contribs) 19:30, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

He left in 1995 to start his PhD at Stanford but didn't technically graduate until 1997. It is confusing, I agree. Hrodvarsson (talk) 02:55, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

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The Hyperloop is a futuristic mode of transportation that consists of passenger pods traveling through tubes at speeds of more than 500 miles per hour. And the first one is being built currently in the desert, north of Las Vegas, Nevada. Alexday001 (talk) 06:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a

reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs}

) 13:23, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 November 2017

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Elon Musk Net worth is currently $21.5 Billion USD as of November 2017. On the wiki page, his net worth hasn't been updated since October. Tecboy1066 (talk) 15:21, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide

reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —KuyaBriBri^Talk

15:30, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

The article referencing his net worth #18, lists him at 52, but the Wikipedia article has him at 53. 2/14 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.29.8.206 (talk) 23:30, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

The Net worth is $20.3 Billion USD as of March 2018 (https://www.forbes.com/profile/elon-musk). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.111.126.14 (talk) 08:07, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Under the patents section, it should also include a link to the 2014 decision by Musk and Tesla to not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use their technology. The section is for Musk patents in particular but ultimately it was his passion that drove the decision of Tesla sharing their patent bank with the world. Mygraymatter (talk) 05:34, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

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Number of children should be 6, not 5.

(Their names: Nevada Alexander, twins (Redacted), triplets (Redacted).) Hawwah2312 (talk) 20:07, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Done Thanks for spotting that. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

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I think the first sentence should emphasize that Elon Musk is an African-American in the interests of showcasing diversity. To do otherwise is racism and it's highly problematic that Elon musk is not showcased as a successful African immigrant to America. 68.227.118.206 (talk) 02:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:50, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Oppose change, on the basis that

African-American has a well-defined meaning in the English language, and Elon Musk does not meet the definition. --Guy Macon (talk

) 08:24, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

The IP knows that and their post is just trolling. I removed the IP's edit request but was reverted. Johnuniq (talk) 10:24, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Elon specifically states his father did not invest in Zip2 in his latest Rolling Stones feature interview. "One thing he claims is he gave us a whole bunch of money to start, my brother and I, to start up our first company [Zip2, which provided online city guides to newspapers]. This is not true," Musk says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivanalesi (talk • contribs) ^[1]

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Even though I like this guy I can't take him spreading disinformation like this:
youtu.be/_GBnJNLoBuw?t=22m12s
I think it's a significant point to be made that he can make serious mistakes. Lithium is the 44th most abundant element in this galaxy and 33rd in the Earth's crust. Not third; Oxygen is third, ie. Water is the most abundant mixed atom molecule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements#Solar_system

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-debunks-scare-stories-about-a-shortage-of-lithium/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/4vbe52/elon_has_got_to_stop_saying_lithuium_is_the_3rd/

There is no "just a mistake" here, he is basing the entire production of electric cars (just all electric cars) on the false assumption of an abundance of Lithium for electric car batteries. This is a major error and/or a serious deception on his part to the investors of both the company and buyers of the cars.

CHARGED: Electric Vehicles Magazine - (Editor’s Note 6/17/16 4PM EST: While onstage, Musk stated that Lithium is the third most common element in the universe which is not accurate. In fact, Lithium is the 33rd most common element in Earth’s crust.)
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-debunks-scare-stories-about-a-shortage-of-lithium/
I don't want to be tactless in the way I insert this into the article, but it is important enough for magazine editors to correct, therefore it is important enough to add to this article, but I think it should be written up by another editor. And to be sure I find it highly suspicious that there is not one mention of Lithium in his article. 50.70.236.24 (talk) 06:35, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Please be careful to avoid

WP:OR when editing the article. In particular, Abundance of elements in Earth's crust

is a terrible metric for predicting shortages, and abundance in the universe is just plain stupid (and largely unknown). Helium is pretty abundant in the universe, but are we going to go to the Sun to extract it?

That being said, according to this source Elon is right.[3]

Of course we can do OR here on the talk page to see if a claim makes sense:

• Lithium (2008) $4,440.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2009) $4,530.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2010) $4,350.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2011) $3,870.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2012) $4,220.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2013) $4,390.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2014) $5,050.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2015) $6,500.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2016) $7,475.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2017) $9,100.00 per metric ton
• Lithium (2018) $16,500.00 per metric ton

Compare with

• Iron: $57.86 per metric ton
• Aluminum: $1,885.29 per metric ton
• Lead: $2,385.00 per metric ton
• Copper: $5,719.76 per metric ton
• Nickel: $8,931.76 per metric ton
• Molybdenum: $26,000.00 per metric ton
• Cobalt: $91,500.00 per metric ton

Amount of lithium in a 70 kWh Tesla Model S battery pack: 0.063 metric tons (63 kilograms). That's $1039.50 at today's price, $573.30 at last year's price.

You would do better worrying about cobalt, which is also used in a Tesla battery. 65% of the cobalt produced every year currently comes from the Democratic Republic of the Congo

Speaking of aluminum (third most abundant in the crust), when the Washington monument was constructed in the 1880s it was topped with an aluminum pyramid weighing in at 100 ounces and standing nine inches tall. Aluminum was chosen in the belief that it would be a good lightning rod tip. In 1884, aluminum cost $1 per ounce -- about the same price as silver, and roughly equal to equal to a day's wage for a skilled worker.

Also see:[4] --Guy Macon (talk) 09:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

The issue that I posted has nothing to do with the price. I didn't say he got the price wrong, it's been said in several places that he is getting the abundance of Lithium wrong, both on Earth and in the universe at large. You only make the point with quoting prices, but by showing price fixing can make things worse.

By the way, you may not have realized it but that is Elon Musk's metric not mine... "In particular, Abundance of elements in Earth's crust is a terrible metric for predicting shortages, and abundance in the universe is just plain stupid (and largely unknown)." he's the one you are calling stupid, not me. But as I've said/linked, there is a whole article on the abundance of elements, so it obviously is not "largely unknown." Where is this logic you claim to have; yet you're missing that you're arguing is against Elon Musk not against me. 50.70.236.24 (talk) 01:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I didn't say you were stupid. I said that Elon Musk's metric was stupid. But he did not get the abundance of Lithium in the universe wrong,[5] and I haven't seen him make any claims about the abundance of Lithium in the earth's crust. And yes the price is important. Price is a rough indicator of rarity, production cost and demand, and it is the most important metric if one is discussing whether there is enough Lithium available to make that many Teslas. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:22, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

That's funny, your reference shows that Elon Musk's claims about Lithium are wrong. You must be misinterpreting the atomic number with abunancy rank, it would be third on every chart simply for being the third atomic number on the periodic table, which maybe is the same mistake Elon Musk is making. But the fact is, as it says in many places, Lithium is 44th in stellar abundance, and 35th in the Earth's Crust, so Musk is completely wrong to say 3rd.

• https://education.jlab.org/glossary/abund_uni.html
• http://periodictable.com/Properties/A/CrustAbundance.html
• http://periodictable.com/Properties/A/UniverseAbundance.html
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements#Solar_system

50.70.236.24 (talk) 03:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

RfC about the bias in this article

Shouldn't this article pander only to all the positive of Elon Musk as a biased glowing review of his excellence for mankind and not mention any flaws, since he is so perfect (sarcasm/Already far from

There is no need to start a

WP:NPOV. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk

) 15:17, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

It may have been written a bit too sarcastic, and it was regarding how far the article is from

WP:NPOV it wouldn't be sweeping his mistakes under the carpet and giving him a perfect review. 50.70.236.24 (talk

) 01:36, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

We're not having an RfC about an opinion expressed as a joke. Talk pages are for discussing actionable proposals. Make a proposal and wait for discussion. Johnuniq (talk) 01:54, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

RfC about bias in this article (see main section)

Is there bias in this article and what should be done about it?
Specifically excluding Musk's major mistakes, stating Lithium is 3rd in abundance,
and the many times people have attempted to clear this up, should it be missing from the article?
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/elon-musk-debunks-scare-stories-about-a-shortage-of-lithium/
Here an editor of a magazine has to specifically state that Elon Musk is wrong about Lithium abundance.
50.70.236.24 (talk) 03:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Please find something constructive to do. It appears that Musk gave a three hour "performance" and made a mistake during that time. Are you nominating this for the world record of the smallest number of mistakes made in a three-hour performance? Or, are you claiming it is super bad and

must be in the article? There cannot be an RfC about a wishy-washy "what should be done about it" issue. Make a proposal (based on a reliable source). Then, if the proposal is not accepted here, start an RfC on the issue of whether the proposal should be accepted. Johnuniq (talk

) 05:24, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

If you search the internet with the terms "Elon Musk Lithium" you'll find all kinds of pages/articles ("About 428,000 results"), but if you look for the word lithium in this article you won't find it even once. I find that highly suspicious. I've listed plenty of references, so it appears from my perspective that it is your own personal bias behind the suggestion that I'm not being constructive. Since a veiled threat has been made on my talkpage I'll drop it, but the point has been made here with the 428,000 result Google search and nothing in the article. 50.70.236.24 (talk) 07:27, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Please suggest some text that could be added to this article, with a source that verifies the text. There is no need for such a proposal to be polished text, just provide an idea of what should be included. You might review

WP:TP for information on using colons to indent comments. Johnuniq (talk

) 08:50, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

kid-sized submarine

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Elon musk has started working with kid-sized submarine for thailand teams that has been trapped. [6] [7]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a

reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs}

) 05:16, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Right now the infobox says Citizenship: South Africa (1971–present). Canada (1971–present), United States (2002–present)., but this source [8] says that he applied for Canadian citizenship at the age of 17. So the 1971 date appears to be incorrect.

Do we know that the Canadian citizenship was granted -- not just applied for -- at age 17? According to [9] If it was granted at age 18 he may have lost his South African citizenship. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Oops. Missed something. The ref I cited above says "once they have reached the age of 18 years and they then wish to acquire a further foreign citizenship, they will then have to apply for prior permission to retain their South African citizenship. Failing to do so, they will automatically lose their South African citizenship." So the 2002 US citizenship appears to have taken away may have taken away his South African citizenship. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Why "appears to have taken away"? The ref clearly says that it is possible to retain SA citizenship, and there's no reason to assume Musk didn't apply for permission to do so. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Good catch! I have replaced "appears to have taken away" with "may have taken away" above. This is one of the things I love about Wikipedia; sharp eyed editors catching mistakes. BTW here is another source for the 1989 and 2002 dates:[10] --Guy Macon (talk) 13:11, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The sources [11] and [12] appear to be contradictory: one says he applied for Canadian citizenship at age 17, the other (citing Elon's own words) merely says he filled out a form and got a Canadian passport. One explanation of this apparent contradiction is that he was 'entitled' to Canadian citizenship from birth but did not take up this entitlement and actually 'hold' the citizenship until he applied for (or more correctly, until he was granted) the passport. If this explanation is correct then the dates ought to be changed back to "1989-present" - but a source confirming the distinction between entitlement and actual citizenship would be nice... Rosbif73 (talk) 07:00, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The article currently states:

Citizenship

South Africa (1971–present)
Canada (1989–present)

United States (2002–present)

Do each of these countries allow simultaneous citizenship in two other countries? Do we have a source that Musk is currently a citizen of all three, at the same time, in 2018? N2e (talk) 05:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The South African nationality law page states that "a South African citizen who by a formal and voluntary act acquires the citizenship of another country, automatically loses his or her South African citizenship unless they apply for, and receive permission to retain their South African citizenship before acquiring the citizenship of another country". The Canadian nationality law page states that "on 15 February 1977, the restrictions on multiple citizenship disappeared overnight". And the United States nationality law page tells us that the U.S. government "recognizes the existence of dual citizenship and completely tolerates the maintenance of multiple citizenship by U.S. citizens". So (assuming all those to be true – only the SA one is properly sourced) there's no reason Elon couldn't holding all three nationalities provided he applied for and received the requisite permissions from South Africa. But I entirely agree that a recent source would be good. Rosbif73 (talk) 10:48, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

I have found a piece in

The Sunday Times from 2005 that says "Still a South African citizen, Musk has lived in Canada and California for 17 years", see here. Presumably if he was a citizen in 2005, he would still be a citizen now, as it would have been revoked at the acquisition of the Canadian or US citizenship, especially the time of the Canadian citizenship as he refused conscription. Hrodvarsson (talk

) 01:22, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

That's more than good enough as a source for him currently having triple citizenship.

On a related note, a misguided editor changed the 1989 to 1971 with the edit comment "Musk was a Canadian at birth. His mother is Canadian and he inherited his Canadian citizenship automatically."[13] That's wrong. Musk qualified for Canadian citizenship automatically at birth, successfully applied for it in 1989. If you were born outside Canada and at least one of your parents was born in Canada you are eligible for Canadian citizenship. Canada does not force citizenship on people who may not want to have Canadian citizenship. To actually become a Canadian citizen, the person born abroad must use Canadian form CIT 0001: Application for a citizenship certificate. Musk applied for Canadian citizenship at the age of 17 as a stepping stone to obtaining US citizenship. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

He can't have moved on to California to embark upon a Ph.D. degree two years before he completed his undergrad qualifications at the University of Pennsylvania in (as the text currently stands) "May 1997". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.217.170.175 (talk) 12:57, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

He left in 1995 but didn't technically graduate until 1997. Hrodvarsson (talk) 21:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps we could make that clearer in the article? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:58, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Using "South African-born" in the very beginning of the article appears unwarranted. The only thing of note he did there was being born. We don't call Steve Nash a South African-born Canadian basketball player, or Ted Cruz a Canadian-born American politician, because just like Musk, all they did of significance was having been born there. It is different for articles like Jim Carrey where the person acquires another citizenship much later in life and had already been noteworthy in their country of origin, but for people like Musk, Nash, and Cruz, this is unnecessary. DrJenkins365 (talk) 09:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Musk left South Africa at age of 17, compared to Nash who left at age one, and Cruz who left Canada at age three. Also note that Britannica describes him as "South African-born American", see here. Hrodvarsson (talk) 01:14, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Per

MOS:BLPLEAD, this should be deleted (and I will do so forthwith). Musk's place of birth is not relevant to his notability. Rosbif73 (talk

) 10:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

His place of birth IS notable. Without his place of birth there would be no discussion. There is nothing in your statement "Musk's place of birth is not relevant to his notability" that can contradict this. It is where he was born, it is where he went to school, it is where his personality initially developed. It is part of who he is, psychologically, and socially.--Terry Patterson (talk) 11:56, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

As of today, all mention of his nationalities and place of birth has been removed from the opening sentence, but mentioned in the second paragraph. IMO this is the right decision - I entirely agree with you that his place of birth and his current and past citizenship are significant notable facts about Musk, but they are not the primary factors that make him notable and thus do not belong in the opening sentence. Rosbif73 (talk) 13:06, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks.--Terry Patterson (talk) 14:19, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

We should have a dedicated section for his amazing and quick contributions to the Thai Cave rescue. Without him and his efforts, nobody would have even cared about the Thai rescue. I sure wouldn't have cared, but he used Rocket parts from the SpaceX, that should be highlighted given the advanced technology that his engineers designed so quickly. Thai cave rescues even thanked him for his practicality and innovative forward contributions at a time of intense peril. It would be useful in future cave rescues if need be. Rwat128 (talk) 16:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Got a source for any of those contributions? All I see are some really interesting ideas (a small, child-sized submarine, a one meter diameter nylon tube (or shorter set of tubes) through the cave network inflated with air) but I hanen't seen any evidence that the Thais accepted any actual help from Musk. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

While it is great to see people from around the world join the effot to rescue the children+coach from the cave, Elon did not have any major direct contribution to this rescue operation. "Without him and his efforts, nobody would have even cared about the Thai rescue" is idiotic and not true. // sikander { talk } 20:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

There could be something in the article about his intervention in the cave rescue, which was rebuffed by all the experts and everyone in charge of the operation. It's an interesting aspect of his character that he believes that he and he alone has the correct solution to major issues, in the teeth of all the evidence. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 13:31, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Do you have even a tiny shred of evidence that he believes that? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:27, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Musk was actually responding to someone else's twitter-request to participate. He didn't just impose himself out of some personal caprice, but decided not to ignore the request for his help. So there is no such 'aspect' of his character that Jamesinderbyshire thinks there is.192.252.160.102 (talk) 05:47, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

This edit request to Elon Musk has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Musk will only collect his full $2.6 billion (in the form of stock options) if Tesla hits growth targets, and some are quite ambitious https://nypost.com/2018/03/24/new-york-taxpayers-gift-to-elon-musk/ Vic Sha (talk) 08:31, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Please specify what edit you wish to be made to the article. Fish+Karate 12:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

This edit request to Elon Musk has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In Tham Luang cave rescue section, change "kid-size

 Not done @Diego Moya: this page is not currently protected, you may edit directly. — xaosflux ^Talk 20:48, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

The whole section is quite large and basically just a large list with no further notes. Comparing it to similar sections on e.g. Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, it is either much shorter or has more prose in it. I would remove up to half of the list based on notierity of the award or organisation. Chaosquo (talk) 09:38, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed these easily arguable non-notable awards:

• "R&D Magazine Innovator of the Year for 2007 for SpaceX, Tesla, and SolarCity."
• "The Aviation Week 2008 Laureate for the most significant achievement worldwide in the space industry."
• "Automotive Executive of the Year (worldwide) in 2010 for demonstrating technology leadership and innovation via Tesla. Prior awardees include Bill Ford Jr, Bob Lutz, Dieter Zetsche and Lee Iacocca. Musk is the youngest ever recipient of this award."
• "In 2010, Musk was elected to the board of trustees of the California Institute of Technology, however no longer holds the position."
• "In a 2010 Space Foundation survey, he was ranked as the No. 10 (tied with rocketry pioneer and scientist Wernher von Braun) most popular space hero."
• "In 2011, Musk was honored as a Legendary Leader at the Churchill Club Awards."
• "As of 2015, Musk serves on the board of advisors of Social Concepts, Inc."
• "In 2016, The Drive, a division of Time, named Musk the most influential person in the car business and as the second most influential person in the automotive tech sector."
• "In March 2017, Musk was listed by UK-based company Richtopia at number 3 in the list of 200 Most Influential Philanthropists and Social Entrepreneurs."

For anything else I feel it's best to have a discussion here. ⠀^TOMÁSTOMÁS_TOMÁS⠀TALK⠀ 15:52, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

So he was born in South Africa, moved to Canada when he was 17, then moved to the US when he was 19. And we are calling him a Canadian? I don't think so. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:33, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

We should not call a Canadian citizen of Canadian descent a Canadian? --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Definitely not. The "Canadian citizen" comes from his two-years in Canada - the rest of his life has been in South Africa or the US. And many people have dual US-Canadian citizenship; it is slightly more inconvenient to go to school and impossible to accept certain job offers without applying for citizenship.

The "Canadian descent" claim, while technically correct, is also dubious. His father, Errol Graham Musk, was South African-born and has English, Dutch Afrikaner, and French Huguenot, ancestry. His mother, Maye (Maiden name Haldeman) Musk, was born in Canada but moved to South Africa when she was two years old. She has English, German and Swiss, ancestry, and her father and mother were both born in the US. If ancestry is the way to determine nationality, you might as well call Elon Musk a Frenchman. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

A bit of interesting trivia: according to[14], Elon Musk figured out that it would be easier to become an American citizen as a Canadian than a South African. According to [15], "Elon made his move after he graduated high school. Though he already felt like an American, he'd done research and concluded that it would be easier to obtain American citizenship as a Canadian immigrant rather than as a South African one."

Marginally related: [16][17] --Guy Macon (talk) 09:02, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

This is not a source: It is a buzzfeed-style website that does not generate original content and instead copies text with a link to the source. For the statement about Elon Musk becoming Canadian, there is no functioning link to any source. Furthermore, the very same text appears in the 2nd source posted (the snopes source) which is effectively calling into the question the validity of that very text. There is no cited reliable information that Elon Musk considered himself American and only sought Canadian citizenship because it was easier. For that reason, I still reference my earlier comment, that there is not yet any reliable source in this discussion to indicate that having Canadian citizenship and living in Canada for a pivotal period of life makes one not Canadian. Sundin14 (talk) 21:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

This is factually inaccurate - how would it be difficult to go to school in Canada without citizenship? The vast majority of international students in Canada do not require applying for citizenship to study there, nor do they seek to obtain it. There needs to be an established reason why having Canadian citizenship is not in and of itself grounds to apply the demonym "Canadian" to that person. So far in this discussion, the argument I am criticizing here is the only argument that seeks to argue against Canadian citizenship being grounds to use the demonym. With that argument nullified, I see no argument in here right now against the reverting back to it saying "Canadian American". One would need to establish why both citizenship and having lived there would not be grounds for the demonym, with precedents from other Wikipedia articles, which I have not yet seen posted here. For that reason, I feel it should be reverted back to its original form until that argument and precedent can be established. (5/18/2018) Sundin14 (talk) 21:37, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Also, I want to challenge to the comment that his ancestry is not Canadian, argued by listing prior European ancestries of his Canadian mother. Elon Musk has explicitly stated that he is Half Canadian [18] Sundin14 (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

He has different citizenships which makes it hard to tell, but since he is currently living and working in the US it's for now probably best to call him American. B-Movie Fan (talk) 05:05, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

He is a Canadian American. To call him a full American is misleading. GummoLosyMarxBro (talk) 04:29, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

This edit request to Elon Musk has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Elon Musk is a triple citizen so the first line should say he's a "...South African-born, Canadian-American..." Wizkoo (talk) 08:53, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: We've been through this before.

Second the suggestion to remove place of birth from the lead. It is well covered in the body. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:40, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Is it being well covered in the body not an argument for inclusion rather than exclusion in the lead? Hrodvarsson (talk) 20:27, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

No. Otherwise we wouldn't have a body and a lead.

WP:BLPLEAD tell us what to include. --Guy Macon (talk

) 21:27, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

All the information in the lead is covered in the body. If being covered in the body is a reason to leave something out of the lead, the lead would not have a purpose. The born in South Africa detail establishes context. It would disorientate the reader to say Musk moved to Canada at 17 without mentioning where he originated from. We could remove the moved to Canada detail too and give the impression that Musk was born in America and for some reason attended a Canadian university for a couple years, but this would run contrary to WP:LEAD as the reader would have to read the whole article to have an overview of the topic. Hrodvarsson (talk) 14:05, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

"South African-born" and "Canadian" have been removed from the opening paragraph per

MOS:BLPLEAD. I don't think anyone is suggesting also removing the information from from the second paragraph of the lead. Rosbif73 (talk

) 14:43, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Looks fine the way it is now. I am always amazed at the amount of effort some people put into trying to label famous people as being from their favorite country. Don't they have anything better to do with their time? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Casting aspersions and making insults on Wikipedia, while criticizing someone else for the use of their time? Alright, have a nice day fella. Hrodvarsson (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Okay, I am fine with removing "South African-born" from the opening paragraph if there is strong opposition. I was responding to the suggestion of removing the born in South Africa detail from the "lead" entirely. Hrodvarsson (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Rei Would you like to comment here? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:09, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

This is so typically Wikipedia - Musk is South African, not just South African born and yet that information isn't in the lead. He isn't "American" by any normal persons interpretation of what that means. That he holds multiple citizenships is information that should be in the article not the lead. The lead, as present, is not just misleading - it is incorrect.

79.69.114.153 (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

There's no clear direction on this issue, unfortunately. The convention across all high-quality articles is something like this: "[Name] (birth-death) is/was a [nationality] [type of person] who...." With people like Musk, there's no specific instruction on how to handle the nationality part.

WP:BLPLEAD only talks about including birthplaces in the lead, like saying "[So-and-so] was born in New York City and...", or like in certain European-language encyclopedic conventions in which they include birthplaces and death places in the person's date range (check the German Wikipedia article for any famous person to see examples of this). Here, I think "is a South African-American" or "South African-born American" is best. Musk grew up entirely in South Africa and still has a pronounced South African accent, and this seems most appropriate to him personally.  White Whirlwind  咨 

01:58, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

It's SouthbAfrican/Canadian GummoLosyMarxBro (talk) 04:31, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Elon has been involved in a lot of Twitter drama lately, is it worth it to mention those conflicts?

See

POV fork, and it arbitrarily takes content out of chronological order, or whatever other system the rest of the article is using. Most bios describe the person's life in chronological order, so at whatever point in time they were criticized or involved in a controversy is where that content belongs. Or if you have one section where all the SpaceX stuff is, then all the SpaceX controversy goes there, not off somewhere else. If another section is all Tesla, then the Tesla controversy belongs there.

Because of the special reluctance that Wikipedia has to include negative content about living persons, I'd wait a few days to a few weeks, or even more, before adding this stuff, and only if citing the best quality sources. It is not urgent that a Wikipedia article be up to the minute current with the latest headlines.

All that being said, yes. The twitter drama and cave rescue drama does belong in the article, in a appropriate section, and after the dust has settled. --Dennis Bratland (talk

) 19:04, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

It's already notable. The Musk tweet just made the Financial Times, one more RS and it's definitely noteworthy enough to pass BLP as is. Two if you want to be super-sure - David Gerard (talk) 20:17, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Whoops, shoulda checked: Guardian, Los Angeles Times, USA Today, CNet, Fortune, Buzzfeed News, Sydney Morning Herald ... it's international news at that. There's no reasonable cause to delay this a few weeks - David Gerard (talk) 20:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes, that's technically true. There are good enough sources to include this stuff. But that doesn't necessitate that you have to add it today. Any negative fact about a living person can turn out to be something else tomorrow: mistaken identity, hacked account, ulterior motives. It's very rare and unlikely, especially when a professional publication has fact checked it. But it does happen. And there is run of the mill nuance, mitigating facts that come to light once there is time for detailed investigation.

On the other hand, what reasons do we have to feel like we have to add this content immediately? None. If the article fails to mention this controversy for a few days, even for a few weeks, so what? In some sense, it helps remind everyone that Wikipedia is not a newspaper, which is always helpful.

The fact that it is covered in every major news outlet around the globe ensures that nobody has missed out on this news. It isn't as if leaving it out of this article will mean someone is unaware of it. It only underscores that WP is not a newspaper and should never feel the slightest pressure to keep up with the very latest developments.

So whatever we write today might be minimally adequate, but what we write in two days or ten days will be significantly better. I would say the same on any BLP. Be a sloth. Take your sweet time. Wikinews is a great outlet for those itching to write something right now this second. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

What isn't new is his use of Twitter to enter into extended insult trading, which seems pretty important to the article in terms of fleshing out what kind of character he is. The latest development is that he calls <a diver>, one of the leading British cave experts on the site and a key planner in the rescue, a "pedo" by Twitter to his 22m followers without a shred of evidence, because <the diver> had the temerity to denigrate Musk's proposals. [19] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesinderbyshire (talk • contribs)

We will wait and see what comes out of this. If he has exposed someone who is a "pedo" then we should be thanking him instead of saying an insult trader. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:23, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

It's outrageous that Musk can label someone like this and that is taken as a fact waiting to be disproven here in Wikipedia. Did I miss the takeover by the Cult of Musk? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:30, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

If you are going to find the Cult of Musk on Wikipedia then you have come to the right page, but even still such people must follow the sources and not their own research. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:40, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

"If he has exposed someone who is a "pedo" then we should be thanking him instead of saying an insult trader." How can you say that? He provided absolutely no substantiation for the assertion, and he HAS removed the offending tweets. He made the comment, and unlike what the article says, <diver> is as of the date of this post still considering legal action. "... <diver> considered legal action against Musk over the tweet." is extremely premature, and clearly NOT substantiated by the link. It needs to be sorted out. Part of the problem is the US Speech Act, which prevents libel judgments in the UK and elsewhere being enforced in the US on the grounds that they undermine American standards of free speech.--Terry Patterson (talk) 15:37, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I suggest a rule of thumb, for hot news: why not hold off until enough time has passed for monthly publications to cover the events? Daily news reporters don't have time for much deliberation, but after the monthlies weigh in, we've probably heard it all. It's not mandatory; I'm only saying it's a wise practice. By that standard, there is no reason not to add details about Musk's history of insults and ill-considered tweets. The sourcing is there: [20][21][22][23][24][25]. (I'm not saying these are the sources you should cite; just giving examples)

Considering again what the role of an encyclopedia is, nobody should come to this article to catch up on the latest news about the cave rescue controversy, but someone who is reading about that in the news is very likely to turn to an encyclopedia for history and context about Musk's outbursts in years past. It's practicality the definition of encyclopedic (keeping a close eye on the rules of BLP). --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:08, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

This is coming across as special pleading - David Gerard (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

What pleading is necessary? You aren't forbidden from going ahead and adding this content now. I've observed that such an impatient approach to BLPs creates unnecessary drama that wouldn't happen if editors took their time, but if you don't agree, you're allowed to go ahead with it now. You might want to consider that writing full coverage of unforced verbal errors by Musk over the years would plant you on firmer ground against anyone who would criticize it. If the article contains full context, adding coverage of the cave rescue kerfuffle makes all the more sense.

Controversy garbage dump sections are still dumb though. Put it up in the main body of the article, not tacked on to the end. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:37, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

this is ridiculous of course the article should be up to date sometimes I think people are you get too obsessed with the rules and what Wikipedia is not to realize that Wikipedia should be up-to-date. It seems to me that Wikipedia is so concerned about blp standards that it's made a common mistake which is it's going to fall and no negative information can be added because God forbid there actually be negative information about a living person GummoLosyMarxBro (talk) 04:41, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Should we remove Thud as one of Musk's projects? Doesn't seem to be anything other than the tweets he sent out, and articles covering those tweets. ⠀^TOMÁSTOMÁS_TOMÁS⠀TALK⠀ 16:36, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

According to ethnicelebs.com (which cites geni.com, genealogy.com and wikitree.com):[26]

Elon Musk was born in Pretoria, Transvaal, South Africa. He now lives in the U.S.

His father, Errol Graham Musk, is South African-born, and has English, Dutch Afrikaner, and French Huguenot, ancestry.

His mother, Maye (Haldeman), a model and dietician, is Canadian-born, from Regina, Saskatchewan, and has English, and some German and Swiss-German, ancestry.

His first name, Elon, is likely after the middle name of his own maternal great-grandfather, John Elon Haldeman.

Elon is the brother of Kimbal Musk, a businessperson, and Tosca Musk, a producer and director.

Elon has six children with his former wife, Canadian author Justine Musk.

Elon’s paternal grandfather was Walter Henry James Musk (the son of Harry Musk and Lucy Frances Champion). Walter was born in Pretoria, South Africa.

Harry Musk was born in Exning, Suffolk, England, and was the son of Eliza.

Lucy Frances Champion was born in Caledon, South Africa, the daughter of John Irish Champion and Jacoba Louisa Theron.

Elon’s paternal grandmother was Cora Amelia Robinson (the daughter of John Robinson and Breghie Elizabeth Theron).

John Robinson was born in Liverpool, England, the son of Levi Robinson and Matilda Marsh.

Breghie Elizabeth Theron was born in Beaufort West, South Africa, the daughter of Johannes Nicolaas Theron and Amelia Elenora van Vuuren.

Elon’s maternal grandfather was Joshua Norman Haldeman (the son of John Elon Haldeman and Almeda Jane Norman). Joshua was born in Minnesota.

John Elon Haldeman was born in Illinois, the son of John O. Haldeman and Evaline [?]

Almeda Jane Norman was born in Minnesota, the daughter of Joshua Norman and Almeda [?]..

Elon’s maternal grandmother was Winnifred “Wyn” Josephine Fletcher, the daughter of Harold Fletcher.

Way too much detail for a Wikipedia BLP, but I wanted to document the claim here in case the website goes down. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:33, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

I iterate my belief that "extended genealogies" are poor material for biographies of living persons. Ancestry.com now has given me on the order of four hundred+ notable likely relatives (i.e. with Wiki articles, at least) and I find such lists to be fun, but not encyclopedic. Where the relatives are not even notable, not even fun. Collect (talk) 13:15, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Agree. Totally useless for inclusion in the article. Useful as a quick reference for use during the endless debates on this talk page of the form "His paternal grandfather was from Freedonia and his mother spent 3 years in Elbonia, so that makes him a South African-Elbonian-Freedonian-American". --Guy Macon (talk) 15:07, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Additionally, genealogy sites are usually not

WP:RS as they're made up from user submissions - and I've seen plenty of stuff on them that is compete nonsense. Boing! said Zebedee (talk

) 19:26, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Not reliable, to the point we've given it to a bot

talk

) 17:11, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

That's how the laws work--162.216.46.182 (talk) 05:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

No, that is not how the laws in Canada work. Ignoring the fact that you have confused "Canadian" with "Canadian citizen", if you were born outside Canada and at least one of your parents was born in Canada you are eligible for Canadian citizenship. Canada does not force citizenship on people who may not want to have Canadian citizenship. To actually become a Canadian citizen, the person born abroad must use form CIT 0001: Application for a citizenship certificate (Proof of citizenship) - adults and minors. Musk applied for Canadian citizenship at the age of 17 as a stepping stone to obtaining US citizenship.

And no we are not going to call Musk a Canadian. He was a South African at birth and is currently an American. This has been discussed extensively on this page. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

It's my understanding that citizenship is automatic. Kind of like how Ted Cruz was a Canadian citizen at birth (he later had to renounce this). I don't care about identifying Musk as a Canadian, but his infobox said he became a Canadian in 1989 (before I changed it to 1971)

"There are many laws and rules that affect if your children are Canadian. Most children born to Canadian parents before April 17, 2009, were citizens at birth. "

Check out this link: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=365&top=5

--Wiseoleman17 (talk) 04:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

If you believe that Canada forces Canadian citizenship on citizens of other nations without the person in question applying for Canadian citizenship, you are mistaken. The following countries do not allow dual citizenship and may consider being a Canadian citizen as valid grounds for revoking an existing citizenship in that country: Andorra, Austria, Azerbaijan, Burma, Bahrain, Botswana, Japan, China, Czech Republic, Fiji, India, Indonesia, Ecuador, Estonia, Iran, Papua New Guinea, Brunei, Japan, Peru, Kuwait, Kazakhstan, Chile, Kiribati, Korea, Kuwait, Latvia, Singapore, Slovakia, Ecuador, Lithuania, Solomon Islands, Spain, Fiji, Malaysia, Mauritius, Netherlands, United Arab Emirates, Romania, Mexico, Nepal, Venezuela, Norway, Zimbabwe, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nepal. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Are you not familiar with the Ted Cruz situation. He was born in Canada to an American mother and Cuban father. He was a natural born American. However, being born in Canada he was also automatically a Canadian at birth. He had to renounce his citizenship a few years ago even though he never formally made an application. Admittedly this is a different situation as he was born in Canada. But the point is you can be granted citizenship automatically. Also, South Africa in absent from you list --Wiseoleman17 (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Of course South Africa isn't on the list. South Africa, like the US and Canada, allows dual and triple citizenship. But the government of Canada did not make its laws just for Elon Musk. They made them for everyone, including those who were born in countries that do not allow dual citizenship and who have at least one Canadian parent. If Canada just made them citizens at birth, they could be denied citizenship and deported by the country that doesn't allow dual citizenship. It is very likely that the Supreme Court of Canada would void any such law if it existed, which it doesn't.

The reason why the Canadian laws say you are automatically a citizen if, like Ted Cruz, you are born in Canada is because this is unlikely to cause any problems with citizenship in any other country. I know of no county that does not allow dual citizenship that also automatically makes a person born in another country a citizen. As far as I can tell every such country either has a rule saying that in such cases you have to apply for citizenship and renounce your citizenship in the other country or a rule saying that in such cases you are not eligible to be a citizen. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs to understand that when it's edited correctly, it should remain so. Musk is a Canadian citizen since birth. His mother was born in Canada and even if he claimed citizenship in 1989, the 2009 changes to the law retroactively and automatically made him a Canadian citizen since birth. That 1989 date needs to be changed to his birth year date of 1971 and left alone. There is nothing to debate. This is straight from the Canadian government:

First generation born outside Canada who was granted Canadian citizenship before April 17, 2009 [paragraph 3(1)(h)] Citizen’s date of birth: between January 1, 1947, and February 14, 1977

Paragraph 3(1)(h) recognizes as Canadian citizens persons born outside Canada to a Canadian parent between January 1, 1947, and February 14, 1977, and who did not become citizens by descent, but who were granted citizenship under section 5 of the 1977 Act before April 17, 2009. Under this paragraph, such persons are recognized as citizens by descent as a result of the legislative amendments on April 17, 2009, instead of citizens by way of grant [pursuant to subsection 3(6)], and their citizenship is retroactive to their date of birth [pursuant to paragraph 3(7)(e)]. --SCan1867 (talk) 00:22, 02 September 2018 (UTC)

Nobody cares about your

WP:OR

concerning your interpretation of Canadian law. Canada does not force citizenship on people who may not want to have Canadian citizenship. To actually become a Canadian citizen, the person born abroad must use form CIT 0001: Application for a citizenship certificate (Proof of citizenship) - adults and minors. Musk applied for Canadian citizenship at the age of 17 as a stepping stone to obtaining US citizenship.

If you want to claim that Canada forces citizenship on people who may not want to have Canadian citizenship and who may lose their citizenship of the country they were born in because they were forced to become Canadian citizens against their will, find a reliable secondary source that supports your claim. And why you are at it, please explain the purpose of Canada's form CIT 0001 and explain why it is that Musk filled out that form at the age of 17. Why would he apply for and be granted Canadian citizenship if he was already a Canadian citizen? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:09, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

First off, all countries impose (force) citizenship on people. Nationality Law allows countries the right to determine who their citizens are. For example, in the United States, people born within borders of the country are automatically citizens. They are not asked if they want the citizenship or not, the United States automatically recognizes those people as citizens (whether they want it or not). If they don't want it, they have to renounce the citizenship and pay over two thousand dollars. Second, at the time Musk applied for the citizenship, the law was different. The Canadian government changed the law in 2009 and 2015. As I quoted directly from the official Canadian government website, they did in fact make all Canadians in the first generation abroad automatically and retroactively citizens back to the date of birth. Therefore, those people who became citizens earlier that were in the first generation abroad (i.e. Musk in 1989) are no longer recognized as being citizens from that date. They are now recognized as being citizens since birth (which for Musk is 1971). There is no need for any other sources. It's right there. You clearly do not know anything at all about Nationality Law and what the words automatic and retroactive mean. Yes, countries do grant citizenship to people without their consent all the time and they do change their laws. And yes, even though at the time he had to file the paperwork to become a citizen, his citizenship is no longer recognized as beginning on that date, but now it is recognized since his birth, and that is without consulting him. SCan1867 (talk) 04:22, 07 September 2018 (UTC)

Read

WP:RS, then provide a citation to a reliable secondary source that backs up your claims. You might also want to find a reliable secondary source explaining why an alleged "Canadian citizen since birth" would feel a need to apply for citizenship using Candian form CIT 0001. --Guy Macon (talk

) 02:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Early Childhood

This edit request to Elon Musk has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Was just noticing that the text of the last sentence of the first paragraph is identical to the text of the second paragraph. One of either should be struck.

Edschminke (talk) 12:08, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Have made this an edit protected request (what edshminke means is that the last sentence ("He has a half-sister, and half-brother.") of the first paragraph of Elon_Musk#Early_childhood is the same as the text of the last sentence of the next paragraph)Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:59, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

 Done; that whole paragraph was duplicated. Yunshui ^雲_水 13:40, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

"Musk responded to Mark's censure" should read "Musk responded to Zuckerberg's censure". LeverageSerious (talk) 11:46, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

 Done Yunshui ^雲_水 13:41, 7 September 2018 (UTC)