Talk:Elon Musk/Archive 5

Please remove the content. Granite07 (talk) 17:40, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

I can post a half dozen sources that say the earth is flat... "Are these sources all wrong? Thanks" Granite07 (talk) 17:43, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123:　Rebuttal of a claim doesn't give more validity to the claim, hence the rationale for reverting my edit here: [4] is invalid as far as I can see. This is a biography of a living person on Wikipedia, not a gallery hall for claims without real backing like a news channel or a YouTube documentary or something. By analogy, there is no evidence that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a woman in 1990, and his formal complaint against the people claiming it is true doesn't somehow add to the evidence that he did that. Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: This edit doesn't help your case at all, it just lays bare the fact that we are slapping wild internet claims that the person has denounced into a living person's bio Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:00, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I have permanently removed [5] the emerald mine information from this biography of a living person. The source cited says that Errol Musk didn't even remember where he was when he bought the emerald mine, allegedly saying "I think we were in Djibouti." when they purchased the stake. [6] If you get a CNN or Snopes page or something solid that really supports this claim, then that's different- but what you're giving me is an article from a person that perennially makes wild claims about Musk including that 'teenage Elon Musk once casually sold his father's emeralds to Tiffany & Co. while his dad was sleeping'. NONSENSE. If you want to put this back in the article, you should put it in the right place chronologically too: this "allegedly happened" in the mid-1980s, which should probably not be before the paragraph about the man's childhood. Again, NONSENSE. Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:56, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

The key question (per

reliable and/or whether any other sources corroborate the claim. Musk's rebuttal is a secondary consideration. Rosbif73 (talk

) 10:19, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for all the

WP:RS. But apparently, it's just.... NONSENSE. Martinevans123 (talk

) 10:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC) p.s. I also believe the chronological placement was correct, as it's about his upbringing. If this had been an agreed true fact, it should certainly be placed there. If it had caused a huge controversy in 2018, it should have appeared chronologically to reflect that timing. This seems to be something in between.

@Martinevans123 and Rosbif73: If there's a reliable source for this, let's see it. Otherwise, this is really worse than nonsense- it's clickbait used in the bio of a living person. Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:05, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I might agree with you if Musk had just ignored it. I actually think his response was the more informative part of this topic. But then it seems what I might say is all NONSENSE. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:08, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: If only Glenn Beck hadn't made a formal complaint, then I wouldn't have believed that he raped and murdered a woman in 1990. Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:30, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I really don't see the relevance of Glenn Beck to Elon Musk. Such an analogy, if that's what it is, seems somewhat misplaced, if not wholly hyperbolic. Your personal beliefs, about what you may or may not read in the media, are your own concern. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:35, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: When you have more info on that emerald mine, lemme know. Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Why should I ever have any? I think we both agree it's a fiction. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:48, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Musk's response may be an example of the Streisand effect. But in any case we shouldn't be taking his denial into account in deciding whether to include the claim or not. Rosbif73 (talk) 12:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I am sorry that I upset you and potentially other members of the community, but I was trying to do my level best to keep Wikipedia in good shape. Some of the lies that get posted here become believed in the real world, and then you can cite the lie-believers to back up spurious claims (for instance: various insane claims about Chinese langauges and the Voynich manuscript were posted in 2004 and they have spread to the four corners of the Internet; Unsourced claims about 'In God We Trust' became "sourced") Like I said, NONSENSE Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:04, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I think you ought to think twice before seemingly branding me an advocate of posting lies. I suspect many people will read that Business Insider piece on line (or even just read the headline) and wonder if it's true. Wikipedia would do them a favour by showing Musk's rebuttal. But I'm not trying to

WP:Right great wrongs. I still think his reply was informative. Martinevans123 (talk

) 12:10, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I am really at a loss for words. No known emerald mines. Thanks for your time. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:22, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Unlike you to be at a loss for words. I bet he's got a few emeralds about the place. After all, he does love a nice ring. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I bet he does have emeralds, we can agree on that. I'm sorry for antagonizing you like this. All I can see is a biography of a living person that must be kept to Wikipedia standard on the one hand and a wild internet claim on the other. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:50, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm beginning to feel a little haggard by this ride... Martinevans123 (talk) 12:54, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@

WP:RS for the emerald mine. The fact that there is a RS for the 'claim of an emerald mine' - and a rebuttal from Musk is enough to make it notable. It helps to demonstrate the at times puzzling claims that (presumably) detractors of Musk put out there, and as such it adds value to the article. (If in fact Elon Musk had benefited financially due to this claim, I am sure we would learn the details about it - and that as such, it is very likely all bogus - but that's beside the point, whether we like the story or not.). Lklundin (talk

) 12:38, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Lklundin: Alright, now, in this case, what is the reliable source (RS) that makes a 'claim of an emerald mine'? Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:43, 20 May 2020 (UTC) (modified)

You will have to excuse me, but the validity of my argument does not depend on whether I can produce such an example. What I am doing, is to refute your argument that we need a RS on the emerald mine. Lklundin (talk) 12:53, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Lklundin: You wrote,
"The fact that there is a RS for the 'claim of an emerald mine' - and a rebuttal from Musk is enough to make it notable."
What I'm saying is that the
"fact that there is a RS for the 'claim of an emerald mine'"
has not yet been established.
Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:56, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I would like to say that I really don't understand what has happened in this conversation. It seems very strange to me. I didn't mean to cause offense. Sorry to all involved. Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:02, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

There is a source [8] stating that Errol Musk said he owned an emerald mine. First question: is it a reliable source?

WP:RS/Perennial sources#Business Insider states that there is no overall consensus as to its reliability... Second question: are there other RS making the same claim? (I don't know, I haven't had time to look) Rosbif73 (talk

) 13:15, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

And that's not all his father Errol has said allegedly (same source, of course): "We had so much money at times we couldn't even close our safe." Hmmm. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:22, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

If nobody puts in the leg work to find reliable sources to show there is a claim of emerald mines, then this whole discussion is over because you can't add stuff to the biography of a living person wildly. That's all I'm asking for here: sources for the 'claim of an emerald mine'. If you all find it, great. If not, then you didn't find it: discussion over. The Business Insider articles [9] [10] are not New York Times level material people. Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:26, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, let's make sure to note in the event Mr. Phillip de Wet really did interview Errol Musk that the relationship between Elon and Errol is very tense seeing that Elon has called his father "a terrible human being". Who knows what's going on there people. Has anyone beside Errol been quoted talking about the half share of the Zambian emerald mine? Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Discussion over?! Let's not forget about the Italians who paid £80,000 in cash for a plane Errol was intending to fly to England to sell when it landed, but couldn't fly via Jeddah, because there was a religious holiday.... Martinevans123 (talk) 13:42, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't clear what was going on there. Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:48, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Elon Musk is not a reliable source of information about Elon Musk. BeŻet (talk) 13:53, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

How about his Dad? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:55, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

We can report what both are saying about the mine, but what I'm trying to say is that Elon rebutting something doesn't make it defenitely not true. BeŻet (talk) 14:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Based on the odd twists in the narrative presented by the Business Insider articles as pointed out by Martinevans123, I do not believe the quotations in the Business Insider articles are genuine Errol Musk quotes. Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, you're entitled to such opinion, but since you have no evidence it doesn't matter here. BeŻet (talk) 11:12, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Sources

So, I just stumbled upon this conversation wondering why there's no mention of the emerald mine in the article. Here are some sources I've found with discussion regarding a the so-called Mine of Musk in Zambia:

• Friend, Tad. 2009. "Plugged In". The New Yorker, August 24, 2009. Online:

Quote: "When he was eleven—about the time that he sold his first piece of software, a video game called Blastar—Musk told his mother that he was going to move back to Pretoria to live with his father, Errol, an electrical engineer who would later own an auto-parts store and 'a share in an emerald mine. "

• Graziosi, Graig. 2020. "Elon Musk lists five more California properties for a combined $97.5m after vowing to sell his material possessions". The Independent. Online.

Quote: "Mr Musk - whose father was a co-owner of a Zambian emerald mine who once described being so wealthy that "at times we couldn't even close our safe" - has not announced any plans to part with his wealth"

As this is a BLP article, we certainly need to be careful about sourcing. However, this seems to be quite widely reported.

• Strauss, Neil. 2017. "Elon Musk: The Architect of Tomorrow". Rolling Stone. November 15, 2017. Online:

Quote: "When Elon came to live with him in Lone Hill, a suburb of Johannesburg, Errol was, by his own account, making money in the often dangerous worlds of construction and emerald mining – at times so much that he claims he couldn’t close his safe."

These are just three examples from a plethora of media sources on this topic, spanning back to at least 2009.

Now, it's clear that Musk is promoting a classic Horatio Alger narrative about himself (cf. articles like this one)—not at all uncommon among the wealthy (here's some notable discussion of a famous example)—but when do all these sources meet the threshold for inclusion? Certainly, the article requires extra care due to BLP and all, but we are also not here to parrot what people say about themselves and call it a day.  :bloodofox: (talk) 01:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Bloodofox: The New Yorker article says Errol had a share in an emerald mine. But how many shares did Errol have? My mom had a share in a company too. Everybody has shares in companies.
The Rolling Stones article says Errol was making money in emerald mining. If you own a company or only own one share, then you can make money in a company. Vague as anything.
The Independent article makes the most specific claim, saying Errol was a co-owner of a Zambian emerald mine. That might be notable if it could be more reliably sourced rather than a one-sentence throw away statement.
Now, based on these three statements, what is it that you propose adding to the article? (Opinion: A compilation of articles that have both the word 'Musk' and 'emerald' doesn't make the threshold of adding conspiracy theories to Wikipedia Living Persons Bios: a specific, credible claim needs to be made by the sources.) Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:37, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

It looks like Bloodofox has provided all the WP:RS they need to. I say we include the information, it appears due and I’m not sure how Musk refuting it makes it less reliable... Musk is highly unreliable, especially for facts about his own life and businesses.

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 03:48, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Also can you clarify what conspiracy theory you’re referring to, I don’t see one here.

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 03:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@

Horse Eye Jack: What do you want to add to this article my friend? What sentence? What claim? The conspiracy theory is "his daddy has got a emerald mine". I can't wait to see what sentence we want to contrive out of these sources. Geographyinitiative (talk

) 03:59, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

If Errol Musk made a lot of money due to his stake in an emerald mine in Zambia, then hypothetically that may be important for this Wikipedia page. But if we believe that based only on the sources we have presented here so far, then I have a half stake in an emerald mine I'd like to sell you in the Florida Everglades, alligators no charge. Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:19, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory? The sources I cite above are certainly reliable sources (

WP:RS)—and there are many more where they came from. This is bizarrely defensive response to what should be a straightforward discussion. If you have other sources that describe this reporting as transmission of a "conspiracy theory", please provide them, and we can discuss those. :bloodofox: (talk

) 04:57, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Bloodofox: Let me know when we have a sentence about the emerald mines that is proposed to be added into this article. Otherwise, I don't see the point of the discussion vis-a-vis the goal of creating a better encyclopedia. Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:08, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Again, what is your source that this is a "conspiracy theory"? I'm genuinely curious about where you're getting this idea. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:26, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Bloodofox: This discussion is going on and on. Let's just get a draft of the sentence that you want added to this article so we have something specific to discuss. Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:38, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Sources clearly state he was a co-owner of an emerald mine. Mentioning this in the article shouldn't be controversial at all. BeŻet (talk) 11:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

So here's a draft 2-sentence addition which you might like to discuss:

In 2018 his father ErollErrol claimed that he had been half-owner of an emerald mine in Zambia, allowing Musk to grow up with a "lavish lifestyle" and leading to many of his interests later in life.^[1] Musk himself, however, denied this story, saying "This is a pretty awful lie... He didn't own an emerald mine & I worked my way through college, ending up ~$100k in student debt."^[2]

Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:17, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: Okay, why put quotation marks around "lavish lifestyle"? Also, based on this source, how can we say that the "lavish lifestyle" derived from the emerald mine money led to many of Elon's interests in later life? Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

The quotes could be removed. Yes, that's a claim by the author, de Wet, who says "... half-share in a Zambian emerald mine, which would help to fund his family's lavish lifestyle of yachts, skiing holidays, and expensive computers." So that could be clarified or be removed. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:28, 21 May 2020 (UTC) p.s. I have asked a question here.

@Martinevans123: This sentence also has the words "Eroll claimed", as if Eroll said the things that come after those words. Did Eroll claim they had a "lavish lifestyle"? I think "lavish" definitely isn't put in the mouth of Eroll, even by de Wet. Remember, this is the bio of a living person on Wikipedia. We have standards. Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:40, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I would tend to think that at this point, the changes to the sentence are already so many that there's not much content left- can we see where we are now and produce a new version of the content we are trying to add to the article? Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:42, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

And I would tend to wait for inputs from other editors and a reply at

WP:RS. We have standards. Yes, I managed to remember, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk

) 11:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: What is it that you want to add to this article about Elon Musk? Are you trying to add De Wet's subjective assessment (with the adjective 'lavish') of the teenage life of Elon Musk? Once the word 'lavish' is out, what's left? Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:58, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

To clarify: if Elon Musk grew up in the lap of luxury with the profit of half an emerald mine, then yeah, maybe that could be valuable content for his Wikipedia article. I'm just saying: let's get the evidence for that and then (and only then) start adding that to the page. One alleged interview with the man's estranged father in which the reporter uses the word lavish is not enough. If there is more evidence, more sources, then yes, that stuff could be used to make good Wikipedia content. In the absence of that, there is no new content to be added to the page in my view. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Evidence of what? We are talking about Eroll's claim which is described in the article and talks about the lavish lifestyle. We already attribute this to the reported claim. BeŻet (talk) 12:25, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@BeŻet: If you want to have a try, feel free to write up a new version of what you want to see added to the article. I'm afraid I'll put the conversation too far in the weeds and away from adding material to the Wikipedia mainspace if I start fielding questions here like that. Let's keep it focused on a specific thing we want to add to the Elon Musk article. Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:32, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

But I'm happy with what Martinevans123 (talk · contribs) wrote. BeŻet (talk) 13:10, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@BeŻet: I asked Martinevans123 the question, "Okay, why put quotation marks around "lavish lifestyle"? Also, based on this source, how can we say that the "lavish lifestyle" derived from the emerald mine money led to many of Elon's interests in later life?" and the user said the quotation marks were take it or leave it. What do you think? Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:15, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I applaud you for your work trying to get to the bottom of this. For my part, I just want to protect living persons biographies. I think that this process we are going through will help produce a more useful article in the long term. Thanks for your time and efforts. (PS Quick heads-up-- Errol Musk's name is spelled Errol and not Eroll- not important, but just wanted to let you know- it is misspelled in the sentence you proposed as well.) Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:12, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Probably an emerald-based Freudian slip. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:16, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I have made too many edits about Elon Musk, and the danger that I will get myself banned grows greater with every post. I hereby give up on this project totally. I hope that if you are going to revert my deletion of this material, at least you will carefully consider whether one journalist's claim from a website cited for clickbait (according to the Wikipedia article) is enough to write the word 'lavish' in a man's biography. I don't think we're saying he lived in mansions- if you don't have a mansion, you're not at the level of lavish yet. A safe stuffed full of money means that's all the money you have (not much). Also, these events are alleged to have occurred in the mid 1980's, so they didn't happen in his childhood and were put in the wrong part of the article in terms of chronology. For the safety of my account and my sanity, I'm out! Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:31, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I added it to "Early life". That's when he alleged he had run up "~$100k in student debt"? Thanks for your lavish Talk page contributions. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:50, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

p.s. I assume you mean "I hereby give up on this talk page topic totally." Martinevans123 (talk) 10:29, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Just to note,

WP:RSN: "I note that that article you linked seems to be summarizing a Forbes article, this one, which fortunately is written by Forbes staff and not Forbes contributors. That Forbes article is definitely reliable as to what Eroll's quotes are, in terms of what he was interviewed above. (note the editor's notes to explain the story's origins). That said, to the point Martinevans' raised and as noted by the Forbes editor here ... that Elon and his father Errol had a difficult relationship. This seems to be rather well-known, meaning that anything contentious stated about Elon by Eroll probably should be predicated by attribution, eg "Eroll stated that Elon..." Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk

) 11:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• Bloomberg has now published a piece by Musk biographer Ashlee Vance that casts further doubt on the "lavish lifestyle" narrative:

"Some of his most vocal detractors have promoted the idea that Musk, like Trump, began his career backed by the deep pockets of dear old dad. Errol Musk, an engineer, owned a small percentage of an emerald mine and had a couple of good years before the mine went bust and wiped out his investment. Musk readily jumps onto Twitter to refute the charges that his empire was forged with the aid of family wealth, and part of the reason he wanted to talk to me—rather comically given the rocket launch and, well, trolls—was because the jabs bug him, and he hopes to set the record straight. For what it’s worth, my reporting, based on conversations with hundreds of people, confirms Musk’s story. Regardless of your opinion of him, he is a self-made billionaire."

I think the emerald mine thing may still be worth mentioning in the article, but only if appropriately put into context. Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:55, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

That's interesting. I'd certainly support relevant context. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Should be taken with a grain of salt given that the author isnt independent when it comes to the subject of this article and the definition of “self made” is subjective (he would still be self made by most definitions if his dad was a famously successful emerald impresario). I think we should include the claim about the mine, the lifestyle, and the disagreement the subject of this article.

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 06:13, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Wait, how is Ashlee Vance "[not] independent when it comes to the subject of this article"? Are you saying that his book was somehow commissioned by Musk himself? That would be a notable scoop and important addition to the article about that book. If reliable sources for this claim can be found, that is. Regards, HaeB (talk) 00:39, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

You have to write the emerald mine reported by business inc,and if you want you can quote he rejected all the claims but the article should be mentioned Madmax9141999 (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

You don’t have to do anything except write reliable info. 'lavish lifestyle' is not a quote from Errol- this is BLP people, and bare links are being added to confirm rumors. We are not a bathroom stall wall. Give me a fully threshed out and thought out draft of what you want. I’ll say it again: BLP BLP BLP. Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:56, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

What's wrong with:

In 2018, his father Errol claimed that he had been half-owner of an emerald mine in Zambia during Elon's childhood.^[1] Musk has denied the story on Twitter, saying "This is a pretty awful lie...He didn't own an emerald mine & I worked my way through college, ending up ~$100k in student debt."^[2] Acalycine (talk) 07:43, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

To my eyes, this version is WAY more reasonable than other suggestions I have seen. I would contest the use of the word 'childhood' since Elon would have been about 14 when the supposed initial purchase of a stake in the company would have been made. Any potential money made off the alleged mine would have influenced teen years and not childhood as I would understand it. Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:19, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

during Elon's teenage years, then. Is this sufficient for inclusion, now? Thanks. Acalycine (talk) 11:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

A 14 year old is a child... All teenagers under 18 are children and those years are included in “childhood” (notice how “teenhood” isn't a thing? Its just childhood and adulthood, its a binary).

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 16:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

To say 'childhood' instead of being more factual and saying 'teen years' is to increase the propaganda effect by implying "lil' elon's papa was big money". No, no, no. Any money made out of the alleged mine would have affected a part of Elon's life best termed as teenage years in modern English. Just adhere to the facts. Find me another famous BLP where post 14 years old is called childhood. Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:07, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Conflating childhood with post pubescent teen years is for propaganda reasons, not fact reasons. Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:12, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Now let's find out what EXACTLY Elon is referring to as a lie. I don't think Elon was directly calling out his Dad as a liar in that tweet, and the way this proposed passage is written now, it looks like Elon is directly saying Errol was lying. No: Elon is saying that something on twitter he is reponding to is a lie. Can we rework the passage with the "childhood to teen" thing and some clarification on what exactly the lie Elon saw on Twitter is? Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:31, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Elon left SA at age 17 which would be 1988-1989 by my 'rithmatic. How many years of his "childhood" did Elon live the "lavish" lifestyle? Don't you see what you are doing here? Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:57, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, which religious holiday in Jeddah would have prevented Errol from getting to Jeddah in the 80's? https://www.edarabia.com/jeddah/public-holidays/ Has anyone ever heard tale of anything like what Errol allegedly describes as the alleged reason he couldn't land in Jeddah? Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:07, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Its looks like King Abdulaziz Airport was in operation by 1981, so that checks out in terms of chronology at least. How can we find out about their landing permissions policies and fee schedules in the mid 80's so we can do the basic fact check of the alleged words of Errol? I am also trying to find out what Lake Tanganiyka airport this transaction could hypothetically have taken place at. Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

I have requested assistance on the King Abdulaziz International Airport talk page ([11][12]). Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:35, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, I just noticed that deWet’s BI article uses the word “owns” in the title, but Errol allegedly says “for the next six years” implying that after the sixth year, the situation changed somehow. That casts massive shade on deWet in my eyes- sensationalist clickbait my friends. NONSENSE Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

From the Italian lira page:

"Following the devaluation of the pound, Italy devalued to US$1 equaled 625 lire on 21 September 1949. This rate was maintained until the end of the Bretton Woods System in the early 1970s. Several episodes of high inflation followed until the lira was replaced by the euro."

80000 Italian lira may be impressive as a number with four zeros, but at best it amounts to 150 USD unless I am mistaken. Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Scrap that, the 80,000 figure is UK pounds probably, meaning the emerald mine share would have been a 50,000 USD purchase (half of the 80,000 pounds for half of the mine, as stated in the article). Given that in another of deWet's articles, the mythical teen Elon was gallavanting around the streets of New York with emeralds in his pockets worth USD 24,000 to Tiffanys [13] (after being set in a ring) while his father was asleep, does USD 50 grand sound like a reasonable price for a half stake in an enterprise where one emerald jingling in a teen boy's pocket could recoup half the investment? This is hagiographic, dog faced pony soldier internet malarkey, not Wikipedia grade material. Apocryphal.Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:55, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I've been thinking- is it possible that Errol actually did say some of these things to deWet? I have come to suspect that it could be possible that Errol might want to relate interesting but potentially ungrounded tales about his son for unspecified motives. There may be some small kernel of truth somewhere in all this, but the image of baby Elon with an emerald spoon in his mouth is not verified material at this time. To include this info in an important Wikipedia Biography of a Living Person at this time with this evidence does a disservice to this website in my view. Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:56, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: the tweet Elon refers to as a lie is the following:

“He lost more money than you'll ever have and he still has more money left over than you'll ever have and that's not because he deserves it, it's because his family stole an emerald mine from the Black people who live in South Africa.” (context)

That said, are we good to include the following reworked version? Further modifications can be made on this talk page, if needed.

In 2018, his father Errol claimed that he had been half-owner of an emerald mine in Zambia during Elon's teenage years.^[3] Musk has denied the story on Twitter, saying "This is a pretty awful lie...He didn't own an emerald mine & I worked my way through college, ending up ~$100k in student debt."^[4] Acalycine (talk) 07:22, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

The lie is not the allegation of partial ownership of a mine in the preceed8ng sentence. The awful lie from Elon's view is the vitriolic wording of the tweet which Elon is having an emotional reaction to, hence his use of the word awful. Can you remove the lie part? Geographyinitiative (talk) 07:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, should the other unevidenced claims from Errol be mentioned? Geographyinitiative (talk) 07:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Before we move on, if you are willing, I would like @Acalycine: to review your latest post and confirm that you really wanted to write what you wrote. You did do the leg work and found the thing Elon called an 'awful lie', which said Elon’s family stole, not bought, stole a whole emerald mine- not part of an emerald mine, but a whole mine- from black people in South Africa, not Zambia, South Africa. Good job on finding the tweet! But you forgot to compare the tweet to what Errol said and what you wanted Wikipedia to say that Elon said about Errol’s claim. How slipshod and unfair man! His dad never said they stole an entire emerald mine from black SAfricans. Elon is not saying his dad's alleged claim about a 50,000 USD stake in an emerald mine that supposedly went belly up after six years is an awful lie, he is calling the twitter user's insane, vitriolic words a lie. That 'nuance' is HUGE my friend. THIS IS BLP. Why are you being so slipshod in your suggestions for how this should be written （if I may be direct）? Actually, really read the article and really try to get a feeling for the low-brow variety act masquerading as journalism we are trying to use as a justification to write unsubstantiated claims on a man's Wikipedia page. Read the secondary article about sneaky Elon selling his Pop’s gems on the sly while he slept. How devious little Elon was! Kinda like the opposite of how honest young George Washington was- Washington was the archetype of a kid who coukdn't tell a lie, and Elon was the literary archetype of an unprincipled schemer. In my view, these are the things of hagiography and clickbait, not Wikipedia. If you don't agree with my persepective, let me know. From my view, it just seems like you and the other users want to ram something through. YUCK. Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

DeWet offers no critical analysis or fact check of the alleged claims of Errol, using a blatantly deceptive title for his "article" to offer up even more salacious claims about a "lavish lifestyle" that are not based in a known reality in even the least degree. Do I still need to argue something here? This is not Wikipedia my friends. Let's not debase ourselves any further by giving our clicks to that pile of garbage. I do not believe everything I read on the internet. Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

You need to remain calm and stop assuming I have bad intentions. It is clear that Musk was denying the ownership of the emerald mine in that tweet, based off the prior denial (in same thread) of a tweet claiming his father had owned the mine - however, for clarity's sake, I will reword it using the original aforementioned denial.

In 2018, his father Errol claimed that he had been half-owner of an emerald mine in Zambia during Elon's teenage years.^[5] Musk has denied the story on Twitter, saying "He didn’t own an emerald mine & I worked my way through college, ending up ~$100k in student debt."^[6]

@Geographyinitiative: is this sufficient? I hardly see how I am attempting to 'ram' anything through when I am actively consulting with you before re-inclusion. Acalycine (talk) 11:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay, now why are we mentioning the 100k dollars of debt thing? A six year investment in mining has got nothing to do with that- 風馬牛不相及- this part of the sentence was included to rebut the silly twitter claim. Errol was never portrayed as impling that the money from his alleged mines shares covered tuition for Elon in later life. Got to ram it through though! Clickbait articles with lying titles are good on Wikipedia BLP of famous persons! Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I beg of you to calm yourself and discuss this without assuming I have ulterior motives. I included the "student debt" line to provide more context to the denial. If you think it's not relevant to the denial, I would capitulate and instead wish to reword the last sentence as Musk has denied the story on Twitter on multiple occasions - the quote He didn't own an emerald mine does not seem long enough to be included by itself verbatim. So here, is this good enough?

In 2018, his father Errol claimed that he had been half-owner of an emerald mine in Zambia during Elon's teenage years.^[7] Musk has denied the story on Twitter on multiple occasions.^[8][9] Acalycine (talk) 11:25, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

The statement "Musk has denied the story" is not sourced. He denied a variant form of the story where his family were the taskmasters of a stolen gem mine, but he didn't directly say his dad had never dabbled in investments related to emeralds. Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

In 2018, his father Errol claimed that he had been half-owner of an emerald mine in Zambia during Elon's teenage years.^[10] Musk has denied this on Twitter.^[11] Acalycine (talk) 11:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I believe that the “this” in this sentence is technically an uncertain antecedent. You and I may have an idea of what we mean here, but a casual reader may not realize what exactly is denied. Is the antecedent of “this” the entire preceeding sentence, or is it some component of the sentence? Antecedent (grammar) advises us: "In some cases, the wording could have an uncertain antecedent, where the antecedent of a pronoun is not clear because two or more prior nouns or phrases could match the count, gender or logic as a prior reference.[3] In such cases, scholars have recommended to rewrite the sentence structure to be more specific,[3] or repeat the words of the antecedent rather than use only a pronoun phrase, as a technique to resolve the uncertain antecedent." Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:31, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

In 2018, his father Errol claimed that he had been half-owner of an emerald mine in Zambia during Elon's teenage years.^[12] In 2019, Elon denied that his father owned an emerald mine.^[13] Acalycine (talk) 13:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

There is only one place in deWet's "article" that directly and clearly mentions Zambia as the location of the supposed mine- the first half of the title: "Elon Musk's family owns an emerald mine in Zambia". The sentence was not directly claimed by Errol himself in the article. It is not wise for us to make deWet's leap for him and assume Errol really actually made the claim that the emerald mine was geographically situated within Zambia. The one instance of the use of the word 'Zambian' later on in deWet's interpretative writing narrative does not imply location per se- it could imply ownership (the Italians may have roots in Zambia but the mine is on the South African border, or perhaps the workers were Zambian but the mine was in South Africa) or other factors unknown at this time. What we can say is that we do not have direct evidence Errol claimed he was half-owner of an emerald mine in Zambia in a 2018 interview, because that wording does mot appear in any of his alleged quotations, nor does deWet say Errol said that. Only appears in deWet's big lie of a clickbait title, and we are making an extra leap outside of what deWet wrote to say Errol's alleged claims included that geographical component. I, for one, am not inclined to be so imaginative and would prefer rigorous adherence to whatever "facts" there are in this "news interview". Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

It's all fine and dandy to assume good faith among the Wikipedians, but I dare not pretend for a moment that ad based newsmen will not do whatever it takes for a click, and the word "Zambia" -not found in the article but prominent in the title- is probably part of the money making calculation my friends. Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:41, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Why take the risk to assume that a geographical component was included in Errol's claims? If I was stood before a judge in a court of law having affirmed the truth of my words on penalty of perjury, I would in no way consent to the proposition that based on this article, I know Errol allegedly claimed the mine to be within the territory of Zambia. I might say "probably" "possibly" or "reportedly", but I would not say he said that which it was not reported he said. No-! I would not say “reportedly” for indeed it was not so reported! More like "distinctly not so reported". Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:58, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 15:54, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

If your estranged father had allegedly spoken with a clickbait journalist, I would defend your biography from spurious claims imagined by others too my friend. So far, I have gotten rid of so much that was not ethically sound or factually sourced, and here I get called "badgering". No, it is not I that needs to drop the stick- it is you who needs to make neutral and sourced claims on one of the most viewed BLP on English Wikipedia. （Note- 'English' does not refer to the website being located in England in this context!）Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:55, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I mean, let's think about this. If what Errol allegedly said in deWet's "articles" is true, the New York Times would have IMMEDIATELY sent someone to Errol's house to follow up. They would have checked purchases made by Tiffanys in New York for mentions of teenage boys coming in selling emeralds worth tens of thousands of dollars out of their pockets. They almost certainly did these things. What they must have discovered was that they couldn't confirm either parts or the whole of whatever Errol was alleged to have said. No, it is not me that needs to stop defending Wikipedia BLP, it is these claims whch really actually need to be given the appropriate weight rather than be belted out in Wikipedia's voice as if readers should be justified to believe them. Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:01, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I enjoin you and any person who wants the truth to actually read and think about the implications of deWet's two articles on Errol and Elon. Again, assumption of good faith does not extend to ad based news corporations. Why build a house of cards on so flimsy a foundation? Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:13, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I reject the notion that I was badgering. I made an important distinction about what the "awful lie" Elon called out actually was. If that is badgering, then we deseperatly need more badgering in this world. Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Let's look at the title again: "Elon Musk's family owns an emerald mine in Zambia". The word 'owns' (present tense) is left unsubstantiated throughout the article, as is the 'Zambia' locator. But the function of those two words in drawing the attention of potential readers to the article could be HUGE. We know there are people on twitter who want to believe things that go well beyond the narrative of deWet. They want Elon's family to have stolen an entire emerald mine from their neighbors. But if this partial stake was just something temporary that happened for a few years and didn't pan out, the clicks would be considerably reduced. If the title was more appropriately "Errol Musk claims he had partial ownership of an emerald mine one time" the article would get nowhere. This is also probably why deWet wrote the words "lavish lifestyle" in his work of creative writing. Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I can revel in a good fan fic when I happen across one! The notion of a sixteen year old wily, crafty Elon and his brother stealing the "family jewels" while their father slept, and, during the brief interval their father was asleep, successfully selling the gems to one of the greatest gem companies on Earth only to find out later that Elon had actually scammed himself out of what could have been a profit 30 times greater, equal to half the initial investment his father had made in the emerald mine, is indeed a most sintilating tale. But I would never confuse the story of the Great International Teenage Emerald Heist of 19 and 88 with an actual reality on Earth in actual human history. Could 16 year olds off the street legally sell emeralds to Tiffanys in NYC in the 80s? No, probably not. Would Tiffanys even want emeralds of unclear origin? Seems like it undercuts their reputation if they do that! But that's not the point! In a fiction narrative, you can kind of just bend the rules of reality a little. Us readers have to suspend disbelief to make the narrative flow. Far be it from me to ruin the story for others by badgering them and pointing out details inconsistent with reality. Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:37, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Emeralds might make the news

Okay, it's been a few days. The conversation here got a little wild, huh? Well, after a few days, I think I'm still quite firmly in the camp that none of the emerald stuff should appear on the Elon Musk page itself (could be included on conspiracy theory pages) without further confirmation, 1) about the specific nature of the emerald mine claims and 2) about the direct relevance said emerald mine claims to Mr. Elon Musk. Here are some new points I've come up with:

• The last sentence of the Wednesday, February 28, 2018 06:30 AM article from Mr. Phillip de Wet ([14], archived [15]) reads, and I quote:

  "And, on at least one occasion, his [Mr. Errol Musk's] now famous son [Mr. Elon Musk] also took his hand [meaning: tried his hand] at dealing in the gems, with peculiar results."
  (My clarifications in italics)

  Note that hyperlink in the quotation I provide here is also seen in the article proper. The hyperlink in that quote goes to a Thursday, February 22, 2018 02:48 PM article from Mr. Phillip de Wet ([16], archived [17]) in which Mr. Errol Musk is said to describe wildly implausible incidents set in late 1980's New York City concerning young Mr. Elon Musk, Mr. Kimbal Musk and Tiffany's, an American luxury jewelry and specialty retailer. In Mr. Phillip de Wet's own words from the second to last sentence of the Thursday, February 22, 2018 02:48 PM article, and I quote:

  "BI SA reached out to Elon for confirmation of the tale, but he did not respond."

  Use of the word 'tale' to refer to a story which is on its face totally impossible shows that Mr. Phillip de Wet himself (or his editors) are having some degree of trouble accepting the validity of Mr. Errol Musk's alleged claims. They published a 'tale', and there is no claim that this is vetted, factual information usable in a Wikipedia article. For Mr. Phillip de Wet to link his Wednesday, February 28, 2018 06:30 AM article to the 'tale' (the Thursday, February 22, 2018 02:48 PM article) shows that there is some level of connection between the two articles, and I would argue that the factual validity of the two articles is inextricably linked, being published in quick succession, about five and a half days apart. The Thursday, February 22, 2018 02:48 PM article shows that the source of quotations from Mr. Errol Musk include wild fantasies about impossible events and, by association, the Wednesday, February 28, 2018 06:30 AM article is thereby put into at least some level of doubt.
• The Thursday, February 22, 2018 02:48 PM article also says, and I quote:

  "“We were very wealthy,” says Errol. “We had so much money at times we couldn't even close our safe.”
  With one person holding the money in place, another other would slam the door.
  “And then there'd still be all these notes sticking out and we'd sort of pull them out and put them in our pockets.”"

  We are asked to imagine a safe filled so full of crumpled bills that they pour out of the safe, similar to the one appearing in the music video "Iggy Azalea - Kream ft. Tyga" ([18]) at 0:04, 0:36, 0:44, 0:48, 0:52, 1:27, 2:32 etc. This type of situation is a common literary device symbolizing prosperity and wealth which is used to great effect in the music video. However, an actual safe with crumpled and disorderly bills would to me signify minor success within a context of overall financial poverty- as I would understand things, the safe of a rich person is orderly and the money is grouped into stacks (as will be seen below in the case of the Italians and their safe). I suspect that the mechanism by which one person would be "holding the money in place" while another would "slam the door" of the safe was so wildly implausible, even to Mr. Phillip de Wet, that he omitted the direct quotation he could have used at this point (if the story is not fabricated).
• What exactly was it that was supposedly purchased by Mr. Errol Musk? According to the Wednesday, February 28, 2018 06:30 AM article from Mr. Phillip de Wet, and I quote:

  There, the two South Africans [Mr. Errol Musk and his co-pilot] ran into a group of Italians who, as it happened, were in the market for an airplane. Errol named his price, and a deal was done.
  “So we went to this guy's prefab and he opened his safe and there was just stacks of money and he paid me out, £80,000, it was a huge amount of money,” he said.
  Standing with the cash in his hand, Errol was made another offer he couldn’t refuse: Would he like to buy half an emerald mine for half of his new riches [presumably about £40,000]?
  “I said, ‘Oh, all right’. So I became a half owner of the mine, and we got emeralds for the next six years.”
  (My clarifications in italics)

  A single-engine plane can apparently cost $15,000 to $100,000 in modern-day USD, and a multi-engine plane can be purchased for between $75,000 and $300,000 according to the article 'Economics of Owning a Small Plane' ([19]) on Investopedia. Therefore, I think that the £80,000 figure is actually plausible as the price for the small plane. Now here's the crux of the issue: what if I were a swindler that wanted to get a plane cheap? I might tell the seller that I have an emerald mine that I wanted to sell a half-share in for half the cost of the plane. If the mark fell for the deal, I might send the mark a few emeralds for the next six years and then tell him the mine went out of business for some reason. Because, my friends, I do not yet have the ability to accept that half ownership in an emerald mine can be purchased for £40,000.
• Was there ever an emerald mine on this earth in which half ownership could be purchased for 40,000 quid? Indeed, there are emerald mines in Zambia and South Africa ([20]). How much do they cost? On Quora someone asked a similar question: "How much money does it cost to start a large-scale emerald mine in Nigeria?" [21] The answers: "It will be in the order of 10's to 100's of millions US$, depending on the size of the operation, the size and shape of the deposit, the quality and concentration of the gemstones, local infrastructure (i.e. what you need to build and how expensive transport is), etc." (from a student at University of Pretoria) and "Setup costs will be in the order of $50m in equipment. Land use consultants will cost another $2-5m. Wages for a 100 strong workforce will be $250,000 per month, and about the same for the 5-8 geologist, engineers and managers you will need." (from a CEO, Director, CIO, Engineering Manager). Based on this, I believe that a half share in a small emerald mine with one geologist would be worth more than the cost of an airplane. Mr. Errol Musk might ardently and passionately believe that he was once the half owner of an emerald mine, but based on the alleged quotes given us in Mr. Phillip de Wet's articles, I think we can safely say that more investigation of his claims in this area would be warranted before we add them on the Biography of a Living Person on Wikipedia. Just because Business Insider might be considered a reliable source in some areas doesn't mean that we should believe everything we read on the internet. Dollar dollar bill y'all. Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:04, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately we don’t allow independent research on wikipedia, looks like you’ve wasted a lot of time on quora and whatnot for nothing.

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 08:49, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

@

Horse Eye Jack: So what do you want to add to the article? Geographyinitiative (talk

) 08:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Acalycine’s most recent text looks good. Also just FYI responding to yourself a half dozen times after you’ve been told to stop bludgeoning is a bad look, you most certainly are bludgeoning this discussion now.

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 08:54, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, but I think I can convince you that the most recent version from Acalycine has problems. Okay, concerning Acalycine's most recent version: I contest that Errol Musk is ever documented to have claimed that the mine he is alleged to have owned a part of was inside the territorial limits of Zambia. Zambia is mentioned as the location of this mine only in the title of a clearly clickbait article linked to another article published five days earlier supposedly from a edited interview of Errol that describes itself as a "tale" (direct quotation) and not as a fact. The clickbait title clearly exaggerates by using the word 'owns', so we have no clear foundation to say Errol ever directly said the mine was in Zambia. Zambia is not part of any quote or claim attributed to Errol. Never is it said that Errol claimed the alleged mine was in Zambia, hence the wording of Acalycine's latest version has a major flaw in my view. Let me know what you think about this issue. I believe that if you are going to add something to Wikpedia from those clickbait articles, it ought to adhere rigorously to the facts as stated, otherwise Elon will publicly make fun of Wikipedia for posting obvious lies on his BLP. Thanks for your time.Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

At best, based on the way Acalycine has written and supported it so far, I think you could say that a writer from Business Insider South Africa said that the mine was in Zambia, but I don't think you say Errol himself claimed that. We could assume Errol claimed that, but that would "make an ass out of u and me" and Wikipedia. Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:39, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I guarantee you that if we don't stick to the letter of the words on this, Elon Musk is going to bring the internet down on this Wikipedia page my friends. You have to write things carefully, concientiously and clearly. All these drafts from Acalycine and others were somewhat slipshod attempts to ram something through in my view. If you want to mold this clickbait crap into a something informative and notable about Elon Musk's background, you have got to come up with well supported, logical statements preferrably based instead on reliable sources and not this a collection of self-admitted "tales". Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:19, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Don't tell me de Wet's Feb 22 tale about Elon the young emerald thief is unconnected to his equally ludicrous Feb 28 piece about the cheapest purchase of half an emerald mine in human history. Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:30, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

"Elon Musk is going to bring the internet down on this Wikipedia page my friends.” I don’t give a single solitary fuck and neither should anyone else. The younger Musk can take it up with BI South Africa if he wants. Please stop being disruptive, responding to two sentences with a wall of text is wack. Either propose text which you would support or shut up, you’ve made your point abundantly clear to everyone and apparently have nothing new to contribute to this discussion... You’re just repeating yourself until you’ve exhausted dissenting voices (which appears to be almost all of them btw) and if you don’t stop now it will end up at a noticeboard and I don’t want to have to do that to you because I highly respect the edits you make in the Taiwan related space.

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 19:29, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I propose adding nothing at this time because I do not think the claims in the sources I have seen so far amount to a notable fact about the life of Elon Musk. There may be some way or ways to get the word 'emerald' on this page, but I haven't actively searched for them. Geographyinitiative (talk) 20:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I see the Business Insider South Africa articles as money-making clickbait embellishments on what the articles themselves describe as a 'tale' of dubious veracity, many of the details of which are found nowhere else. Geographyinitiative (talk) 21:01, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I can tell you that one of the biggest problems I am having is finding reliable information about the value of any

Emerald mine (which is why I resorted to Quora). If anyone can give us an estimate of the value of any emerald mine, especially historical values, please do so. However, I feel that it's quite certain that half ownership of an emerald mine could in no way have been attained by a mere 40,000 quid, half the value of a small airplane. Such an area would be so small or worthless that it would not be considered a mine- perhaps a field that someone saw an emerald in. These are only my rough estimations since I don't have reliable info on 1980s mine values. Geographyinitiative (talk

) 03:20, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Dude its literally irrelevant, thats doing original research.

Horse Eye Jack (talk

) 03:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

If these "reliable" news articles said the mine was purchased for 20,000 quid, would it be relevant then? 10,000? 5,000? 1,000? If the story said that Errol Musk had purchased a half-stake in a Zambian emerald mine for 15 dollars, would it matter then? Yeah, it would matter: because the story is a rank impossibility. What I'm saying is that I think 40,000 pounds is similarly an impossibly low figure for a real emerald mine. Fake emerald mine? Possibly. Real? No way. I mean, would there even be a geologist on staff? How many laborers? Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:16, 12 June 2020 (UTC)