Talk:Frederick William IV of Prussia

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Lutheran or Reformed or Evangelical

You state "Despite being a devout Lutheran...." - this is incorrect. Ever since Johann Sigismund publicly accepted the Calvinistic (Reformed) faith on December 25th, 1613, the subsequent rulers of Brandenburg/Prussia have, for the most part, been faithful to their Calvinistic roots.

In fact, his predecessor, Friedrich Wilhelm III created the Prussian Union church. This new church was simply called the "Evangelical Church" and the terms Lutheran and Reformed were banned by the king in the early 1830s. Thus, under Friedrich Wilhelm III (in Prussia), the Lutheran church and the Reformed church were banned and the only state sanctioned church was the new union or Evangelical church.

Much had been written on this subject and details to verify this should be easy to find.

Lutherans in Pommern, Silesia, Brandenburg that disagreed with the kings edicts continued to practice their Lutheran faith and were arrested and fined. Their Lutheran pastors were thrown in jail. These Lutherans who disagreed with the king were eventually called "Altlutherische" or "Old Lutherans". They finally decided that the only way they could continue to practice their faith was to leave Prussia. From 1835 to the early 1850s, some 5,000 Prussian citizens stated on their government application papers that they wanted to leave Prussia due to religious reasons. Those "Old Lutherans" that came to America became the foundation for the different branches of the Lutheran church found in America today.

When Friedrich WIlhelm IV became king one of his first measures was to retract the toughest of Altenstein's laws and to release the Lutheran clergy still in prison and return them to their parishes. By 1843, the non-Union Lutherans were tolerated as a legitimate private organization of Lutheran brethren. Still they were required to pay surplice fees to the pastors of the United church, and to contribute money to the church and parsonage buildings. They were refused permission to call themselves the "Lutheran church" or to even call their buildings of worship "churches." Still, it was not until 1908 that they were allowed, on the basis of a law modifying the general concessions of 1845, to call themselves "Verein der evangelische altlutherischen Kirchengemeinden" (Association of Evangelical Old Lutheran Church Congregations).

Thus, although Friedrich Wilhelm IV did grant a few concessions to the Lutherans in Prussia, he was by no means a "Lutheran" himself. He was likely raised in the Reformed faith, and during his rule he preserved the Union church his father worked so hard for.

Tom

Wrong Name

Why is his name listed in an English equivalent first, and then German in parentheses, almost like the original is English? Can someone fix his name please? 112.198.98.30 (talk) 15:19, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jeez Louise, this again. If you'd care to look at the German Wikipedia, that is exactly how it is done with British monarchs there. Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:39, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But British Royals are German...112.198.98.30 (talk) 17:35, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I actually looked at the German wiki, and they use English names for the English royals. Changing German historical figures to English names is a form of racism and vandalism.73.220.34.167 (talk) 19:50, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, you have not. Otherwise you would have found that you are wrong. See my post on Talk:Frederick William III of Prussia for examples. Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:49, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Translating German names into English is offensive and tantamount to cultural genocide. I am glad they have the original German names listed in parentheses. However, the article's title is clearly wrong. And this IS the place to discuss it! How do we report people like you committing vandalism?2001:558:6012:5A:565:ABEA:FCDE:5BBD (talk) 19:29, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Cultural genocide?!?! Why don't you let me as a German from former Prussia decide what I consider cultural genocide? For crying out loud... Zwerg Nase (talk) 19:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These are the guidelines for names in the encycloypaedia: ("Wikipedia: Naming conventions (use English)"): The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources ... Sometimes the usual English version will differ somewhat from the local form (Aragon, Venice, Normandy; Franz Josef Strauss, Victor Emmanuel III, Christopher Columbus). Rarely, as with Germany or Mount Everest, it will be completely different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by METRANGOLO1 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 26 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Those that supported the move believed that the target is concise enough while still satisfying

nothing happens. (non-admin closure) Awesome Aasim 17:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

– Frederick William IV is unambiguous. Frederick William III is already treated as a

WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. And Frederick William II is almost surely the primary topic based on pageviews [1]. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

You need to request moving the dab page explicitly. I have added it. Srnec (talk) 15:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Germany has been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 02:51, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Silesia has been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 02:51, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 02:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Векочел (talk) 02:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
e.g. [2], [3], [4], [5], [6],[7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16] Walrasiad (talk) 06:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Addressing the argument made:
These other stuff examples are a fallacious argument by
false analogy
.
In summary, there is no substance to the arguments made. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, the arguments are quite exploded. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That’s quite a
wall of text
. A few points:
  • That readers benefit from the addition of the country is indeed a point being made by various commentators across the many current RMs taking place that address the inclusion of countries in the titles of articles about monarchs. That is the point I was making, as you’re welcome to see. Pedantic gotchas aren’t helpful.
  • How we balance our criteria is indeed a matter of opinion, which per WP:CRITERIA we express through discussion as a means of finding consensus. Policy doesn’t say there’s a single valid weighting, and shouting down others’ as “unsubstantiated opinion” is again not an aid to productive discussion.
  • Re recognizability, we aim to make titles recognizable to those familiar but not necessarily experts in the area. I’m one such person, and without the country I wouldn't have been able to tell you that (say) Charles X and Charles XI were from different nations, or that this article relates to a monarch of Prussia. In all such cases I see the inclusion of the country as yielding a better title that better serves the interests of readers than we’d get without it.
  • Your blocks about PT are unclear and don't rebut the fact that redirecting from a more concise unambiguous title to a longer one is something we do in innumerable articles when we agree there are reasons to do so. (In fact you seem to affirm it.) I contend we likewise have such reasons here.
Cheers, ╠╣uw [talk] 15:31, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will give a simpler summary without the detailed evidence. Of the examples given where a longer name is preferred, save the
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC
tells us to use the shorter name for the primary topic. These Frederick Williams are the primary topics, therefore we use the shorter name. In other words, all those other examples are apples and the Frederick Williams are oranges. Consequently the argument and conclusion, I contend we likewise have such reasons here is fallacious.
The argument made appears to confuse the matters of recognisability and precision. The section linked by
WP:COMMONNAME deals with recognisability and what those familiar but not necessarily experts in the area will recognise as the name of the subject. This is the distinction between using Frederick William IV v Friedrich Wilhelm IV, Peter the Great v Peter I or William the Conqueror v William I. Adding of Prussia is a matter of precision. It distinguishes (disambiguates) these Frederick Williams from other Frederick Williams - if necessary. However, if these Frederick Williams do not need disambiguation (mainly here because they are the primary target) then the extra precision is redundant. Furthermore, while of Prussia may be natural disambiguation, it is not necessarily the natural way to introduce them in prose in other articles. Removing unnecessary precision will tend to obviate the need to use piped links. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:20, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
You still seem stuck on the notion that there's only one correct weighting of criteria or interpretation of policy — your own. While I respect that you have your own weighting that you prefer and are free to advocate for it, policy simply does not support that there's only one right answer in this case, and nor do recent closures like this. However, since you seem intent on lengthy elaboration, I'll reciprocate with some final thoughts:
Those like me who oppose the change appeal to the
policy directives at WP:AT
that we prioritize reader interests over those of specialists or editors; that we make titles recognizable to someone familiar (not expert) with the general subject area; and that our titles fit what it calls an "encyclopedic register". On all of these grounds, retention seems preferable to removal. Readers are not served by the removal of the national clarifier, and no supporter has even attempted to show otherwise; recognizability can be insufficient without the country, even for individuals like me who are familiar with the general area of royalty; and sources like Britannica consistently include a clarifier with the title.
You feel differently, and that's fine. There are reasonable arguments both for dropping it and for retaining it. The only thing I see that clearly favors the shorter form is NCROY itself — or to be more specific, the recent change to NCROY that's prompted the current storm of contentious royalty RMs. The inconsistent results of that change (e.g., Edwards/Richards, Christians/Fredericks, etc.) suggest it may need to be revisited or the NCROY guideline refined... and that also is fine. Though we follow them whenever we reasonably can, guidelines are not sacrosanct and are meant to grow and improve based on community feedback.
Hanging this up for now and will await closure. Cheers, ╠╣uw [talk] 20:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Several similar recent RMs that appealed to NCROY have now opted to retain or add the country: Mary I of England, George X of Kartli, Maria I of Portugal, Charles X of France, an MR endorsement of Maria Antonia Ferdinanda of Spain, etc. It seems increasingly clear that there simply isn't sufficient consensus for such removals in practice, and that we should reconsider the convention before going any further since continuing on this way will only make titles more jumbled and inconsistent. ╠╣uw [talk] 20:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've requested closure for this at Wikipedia:Closure requests. Natg 19 (talk) 21:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I think
    WP:SOVEREIGN
    contradicts itself. The second point says "Use the most common, unambiguous name...This is in line with WP:COMMONNAME." Keep in mind that COMMONNAME specifies English-language sources. As has been shown here, English-language sources are always going to introduce these using the country. When SOVEREIGN then says in its third point that "Only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed," that contradicts point 2 and COMMONNAME, because sometimes the territorial designation is necessary under COMMONNAME with no consideration of disambiguation, (also, COMMONNAME is policy while SOVEREIGN is a guideline). --
JFHutson (talk) 16:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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