Talk:Edward I of England

Hi there, I've been compiling sources regarding the Hereford Mappa Mundi and its meaning as a promotion of the cult of Thomas de Cantilupe and as a defence of the expulsion of the Jews, and I came back to look at how the Expulsion is presented here relating to Edward. I think the page, while generally very excellent, could do with expanding on the topic of Edward's Jewish policies. To be fair to the authors, it's clear that historical research has been quite slow to take up these themes and much of the work to detail Jewish life and the treatment of Jews in medieval England has been relatively recent and run in parallel to the more mainstream sources whuch have tended to downplay these issues, so it is hardly surprising that Wikipedia would reflect this tendency. However it would be nice to rectify this neglect in the historical record!

Themes could include: Edward's religious beliefs on Jews and relations with the church regarding them; anti-Semitic familial influences on him; the use of Jewry and buying of foreclosed Jewish loans to facilitate centralisation of wealth and power within the aristocracy; attempts at conversion of the Jews (currently mentioned briefly); violence against the Jews in the wake of restrictions on them; Edward's experiment with expulsion in Gascony; and after the expulsion, his sponsorship of the cult of de Cantilupe and of the blood libel cult of Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln, as anti-Semitic propaganda to reinforce his position as defendor of Christians against Jews.

Would it be a good first step for me to compile some sources to draw on relating to this topic? Jim Killock (talk) 13:19, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We really need to keep in mind that Edward reigned for decent period and that we don't want to over-emphasize some aspects of his reign. In the end, Edward's policies towards Jews only affected a small part of his reign and his subjects. We should keep in mind the amount of coverage that a subject receives in current scholarly biographies of Edward to base our coverage of particular subjects. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for replying, Ealdgyth. Perhaps the other way to look at it is that there is significant criticism from Jewish history scholars as to whether these issues bave been getting enough attention by mainstream English historians, not only of Edward I, but also of other figures whose actions and views regarding Jews are diminished in the literature? Colin Richmond (1992). "Englishness and Medieval Anglo-Jewry". In Kushner, Tony (ed.). The Jewish Heritage in British History. Frank Cass. pp. 42–59.

ISBN 0-7146-3464-6. is a good starting point on this, but there are plenty of others. He makes some good points on what the significance of Edward I's anti-Jewish policies are - both as views central to his world view and character, and also for long run in relations between Jews and gentiles in Europe. Jim Killock (talk) 18:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Hey, Jim. Thanks for weighing in. I took this article to FA a few months ago, where it was rigorously screened for academic comprehensiveness and whatnot. If there's one thing I learned from that ordeal, and from my experience on Wikipedia in general, it's that it is not our place to dictate academia. As a volunteer organization that draws its information from existing, trusted, and reputable research, it is the job of editors to compile said information in a manner that accurately reflects past and present academia, regardless of personal opinion. Whether Jewish history in regards to Edward I as a topic receives the attention it is due is neither here nor there, but I agree with my friend Ealdgyth in saying that this article probably isn't the best place to be inserting information this niche. Cheers, Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:38, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you; perhaps the point is though that a significant strand of academic thought about Edward I (and this period in general) thinks the balance being struck is really off beam? Would it help if I set out who thinks this, why, and what they believe the significance of this imbalance is? For example: Edward I chose the

Edict of expulsion of the Jewry; a deliberate insult. This isn't generally highlighted in most accounts, and hasn't made its way into the article here, perhaps as a result. One has to ask why historians miss their inflammatory and derogatory significance, and the contention of historians studying the Jewish community is that their is an underlying reluctance of English academia to address the anti-semitism of Edward I and others. They also contend that it isn't correct to see the Jewish community's experience in this period as in some way a niche issue, given the precedents that English treatment of the Jewish community set (first national expulsion of Jewry, creation of the blood libel myth, etc). If Wikipedia is trying to summarise the balance of opinion of academia, then wouldn't Wikipedia's policies expect the historians who feel that balance is off kilter to have their views reflected, if they are a significant group with a particular consensus? Jim Killock (talk) 21:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:UNDUE is still the guiding principle here. We are an encyclopedia, not a book-length treatment of Edward's reign. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:12, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Thank you, that's helpful, that seems to give guidance that minority views should be given some (but not equal) weight if they exist and are significant ("'Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject"). So would it be helpful if I set out what has been said about these questions by historians looking at the relevance and impact of Edward's Jewish policies in broad terms and by whom, and their explanations for these points not being discussed by their colleagues working on Edward I in other contexts, in order to assess what kind of weight that might be given? Jim Killock (talk) 23:01, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In order to hopefully constructively explain what this gap is, I've added a Historiography section to the (separate) dedicated page on the History of the Jews in England (1066–1290), explaining the long standing neglect of Jewish issues in most mainstream medieval accounts of the period. I've referenced three or four major luminaries of Jewish History complaining about this gap between the work in their field and how it is frequently ignored in mainstream works detailing the period. I've also provided references where this group of historians asserts the importance of these issues, both from a contemporaneous ("vital to an understanding of the political and social history of the region") and modern perspective ("it often seems that the treatment of their Jewish minorities by Edward I, Philip the Fair, and los reyes catolicos, much as those monarchs would have been disconcerted by the thought, is more 'relevant' to our own problems than any other feature of their respective reigns" or: "To explain what Hitler had done, scholars found they had to rewrite sections of earlier history").

It's also worth noting that Prestwich biography of Edward I, which is the main source quoted in this article, comes under particular criticism for his neglect of these issues by Richmond:

even the expulsion itself is fleetingly dealt with in Michael Prestwich's Edward the First, published in 1988. In a text of 567 pages the Jews get less than three. It is also evident that, however pressing were the financial circumstances, it was Edward's 'sincere religious bigotry' which impelled him to expel the Jews in 1290. Despite this, in a paper by Professor Prestwich entitled 'The Piety of Edward I', there is no mention of the Expulsion. One's suspicions that these omissions are more than simple negligence are deepened by some of the little Professor Prestwich has to say on Jewish topics in Edward the First. He writes, for example, that (and the italics are mine) 'there were stories of ritual child-murder and torture, which, although they now appear groundless on the basis of the recorded evidence, were generally believed' , and that 'the expulsion itself went surprisingly smoothly, and was not the occasion for massacres, as it might well have been'. (Colin Richmond (1992). "Englishness and Medieval Anglo-Jewry". In Kushner, Tony (ed.). The Jewish Heritage in British History. Frank Cass. pp. 42–59.

ISBN 0-7146-3464-6

.)

I'll probably keep working up the page on English medieval Jewish history (and the Edict of Expulsion page) so the general points are there to draw on later, but I'm hoping this is enough to open a conversation about what might be missing in this otherwise very erudite article. Jim Killock (talk) 13:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As others have commented, this is the general article on Edward, covering his entire reign, and too much detail on one issue may be undue. One option would be to do a new article, covering the expulsion of the Jews by Edward as a specific issue, which then could be linked to the main bio article. That would allow for a more detailed explanation both of the history and the historiography of the issue. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 13:37, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that a huge amount of material needs to be added, but some key points are missing.

For instance:

• "in 1279, in the context of a crack-down on coin-clippers, he arrested all the heads of Jewish households in England and had around 300 of them executed" The research shows this was a blatant and organised fit up, probably to generate income from property seizures from the dead; (a somewhat larger number of Christians were arrested 1270-90 but only 30 were hanged). This doesn't fully come across currently, nor that this was one of the biggest massacres of Jews in England, the only one organised by the state; and represents over 10% of the Jewish population (a literal decimation).
• It is widely held that anti-Semitism was running at a fever pitch during Edward's reign, not least because it was deliberately heightened by his policies. This is absent. See for instance the multiple intricate anti-Semitic artworks of the period, the rood screen at Loddon, Norfolk#Holy Trinity Church or the Cloisters Cross, for example (Stacey 2001, p 165) unparalleled at this point in Europe.
• "Their loan-with-interest business – a practice forbidden to Christians – had made many people indebted to them and caused general popular resentment." This is really misleading. Yes there was widespread resentment; but it worked like this: Edward overtaxes the Jews - the Jews are forced to foreclose the debts - this puts Knights of the shires lands up for grabs - Eleanor and Edward and their very rich mates buy all their land cheap - now everyone is angry. I bold this because this process is central to the creation of anti-Semitism in the landed Parliamentary classes and of course feeds into the church's narrative about usury and the dangers of the Jews. Eleanor's role in this was well recognised and commented on at the time ("The king would like to get our gold, the queen, our manors fair, to hold ..." ) There is a bit of this outlined at Eleanor of Castile; but it is better explained here regarding a slightly earlier period. See Hillaby and Hillaby 2013, pp 360-365. Or see Stacey 2001.
• The sentence: "The expulsion, which was reversed in the 1650s, followed a precedent set by other European rulers, including Philip II of France, John I, Duke of Brittany and Louis IX of France" doesn't reflect the balance of views I have read which see the permanent expulsion as unprecedented - all of the prior expulsions turned out to be temporary, lasting a few years or couple of decades.
• This not only generated revenues through royal appropriation of Jewish loans and property, but it also gave Edward the political capital to negotiate a substantial lay subsidy in the 1290 Parliament. This isn't completely true; he didn't ever collect but a fraction the loans and he gave away a lot of the property, including a synagogue gifted to Queen Eleanor's tailor. The lay subsidy at £110,000 however is the largest ever recorded in the middle ages, which points to the political importance of the expulsion, from the point of view of the landed classes (and to their heightened anti-Semitism, no doubt, at this point). Those looking at it closely (Stacey) are pretty sure this was a tit for tat bargain, rather than "spending political capital". But there are also plnty of signs of pre-meditation, such as Edward's expulsion of the Jews from Gascony in 1287 (not mentioned here) and then his friend
  ISBN 978-0-85115-674-3
  .)
• There is nothing relating to his policies after 1290. Edward I spent a deal of effort bolstering his reputation and claiming credit for the expulsion. The obvious example is his sponsorship of the cult of
  Eleanor crosses, includes memorialisation of Eleanor of Castile and puts the Royal crest on it ("A more explicit identification of the crown with the ritual crucifixion charge can hardly be imagined."). Less obvious is his promotion of the canonization of his friend and advisor Thomas de Cantilupe, on the basis that (along other things) Cantilupe had demanded the expulsion of the Jews. Overall, it is believed that to contemporaries, his great "successes" were Scotland, Wales, and the Jewish expulsion. See Stacey, Robert (2001). "Anti-Semitism and the Medieval English State"
  . In Maddicott, J. R.; Pallister, D. M. (eds.). The Medieval State: Essays Presented to James Campbell. London: The Hambledon Press. pp. 163–77.
• As Stacey 2001 makes clear, Edward's relations with Parliament are dominated by the question of restrictions on Jews and loans. They only vote money as he agrees restrictions. Surrounding that is the question of courtiers and Eleanor buying up lands / bonds / debts.
• The analysis of his reputation in the article says that modern analysts often "denounce the King for his policies against the Jewish community in England"; which is correct, but begs the question, in what way? Without a bit of context, eg, that he is widely held to have operated a policy of state anti-Semitism, or to have been a "sincere religious bigot" this isn't at all clear.
• The impact of the precedents of his policies abroad is missed. Both in terms of Spain copying in the permanent expulsion model, the copying of state forced conversions (another first) and exporting of much more intense forms of anti-Semitism which had bred in the English crucible
• There is nothing to reflect the impact on English identity of the expulsion, which is widely held to have baked in a level of anti-semitism demonstrable in English literature from the 1300s to the 1600s, and an idea that Englishness was unique because there were no Jews in England. This is Edward's legacy and is surely a culturally significant fact.

AIUI @

WP:UNDUE, the vast consensus from historians of medieval Anglo-Jewish history would allow for this to be added ("Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject"). Jim Killock (talk) 16:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

Meantime, while the above items still need looking at, I've taken Edict of Expulsion through a GA review so that we have a longer version of Edward's actions and the consequences of them to compare with.

I've also edited and sourced the material for his wife Eleanor of Castile. This explains a lot of the political anti-semitism.

I've also added details of the anti-Semitism in the church, to the articles for Bishops

Little Saint Hugh Blood iibel including through the series of monuments known as the Eleanor crosses

. These are useful background for understanding quite how deep the anti-Semitic feeling was among England's political and religious leaders, and landed classes, and Edward's clear association with it.

I don't wish to be a disruptive editor on this page, so what I would propose is that I make some minor corrections as outlined above, for instance regarding loans and unpopularity, and whether the expulsion was precendented or not.

Where more detail is needed, I propose I first add the information as efn footnotes. Then the editors can think about what information ought to be presented in the main text. Jim Killock (talk) 10:34, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and edited the sections, making the corrections noted, and adding a couple of important points, such as what happened to those expelled; and Edward's sponsorship of a blood libel cult as part of his post expulsion propaganda. Overall, this has increased the section from 163 to 387 words. I have added a further 143 words at the Legacy section to reflect the opinions of Edward from researchers looking at Anglo-Jewish history, and of English antisemitism in the following centuries.

In comparison, the Henry III of England article, which is also a FA, has 600 words on his Jewish policies in a devoted section, with plenty of further mentions in the sections on the Baron's War and relations with Parliament. (It is perhaps missing some information in the assessment section.)

Given that Edward's impact on the history of English and European antisemitism is arguably greater than that of Henry III, and that these topics are clearly important from a modern perspective, and that there is a very active academic field studying it, I feel these changes are quite proportionate.

Apologies however for editing quickly and directly, if this has caused anyone any issues or worries. Jim Killock (talk) 21:47, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a PS, I did a quick check on what sub-pages are getting traffic, linked from this article. Edict of Expulsion and Eleanor of Castile are at the top, wih about 10% of the traffic each, as a rough guide as to what people may be looking for on this page. I know that isn't the same as following the sources regarding the content. Jim Killock (talk) 21:56, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As noted on Eleanor of Castile, the statue featured at File:Edward I of England and Eleanor of Castile, Lincoln Cathedral.jpg was missing its heads and renovated in the nineteenth century. It would seem that it is not at all certain that it was originally meant to be of Eleanor and Edward, I've found references to the restoration and its controversy, but nothing to say that when it was remodelled, the intention was to depict Eleanor and Edward (which everyone seems to accept!). If kept, it should probably explain that the heads are nineteenth century conjectures made on the assumption that the statues were intended to be of the pair. Jim Killock (talk) 23:07, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, having spent some time reading this article thoroughly now, I think there are some fairly important omissions from it. Most would not require major fixes, but given this has a FA status I do think they need addressing. (There may be other issues, but these are the ones I am able to spot.) Most importantly:

• Legacy section: While Scottish historians' views of Edward are discussed, Welsh ones are not. Edward is typically seen by Welsh medievalists as a coloniser, someone who did immense damage to Welsh society, culture and self-confidence, which produced a lasting anger. Something of this needs capturing. He has also been said to have been prejudiced against Britons (eg, the Welsh speakers of Wales and Scotland). The sentence included from Marc Morris doesn't touch on these points; even if domination is considered inevitable, that wouldn't preclude an assessment of Edward's methods or resulting reputation.
• Ireland: Ireland is not covered in the article at all, except to mention he governed it and it provided him income. Irish historians will have something to say on him, even if he governed at a distance. Did he represent continuity or change in the process of England's colonisation of Ireland? Their assessment may need a mention in Legacy also.

These may be less urgent but would round out the article:

• Religious views: I'm not sure this fully captures the nature of his devotion. It covers his piety as actions, rather than as a belief system. There is commentary about his and Eleanor's piety giving them a sense that they were doing God's work, which makes sense as Crusaders, and explains better his sense of certainty while doing morally reprehensible things.
• Relations with Eleanor: particularly, the support of and the psychological impact of the loss of Eleanor and some of his key advisors around 1290 is often held to have impacted the latter part of his reign. This doesn't seem to be discussed. Likewise, he encouraged her to accumulate land wealth to reduce the call on his own funds, which was an important change for future queens but impacted a lot on domestic relations with the landed classes who were being dispossessed; it limited what he could do with taxation and was a driver in his policies towards the Jews. I've touched on this but it could do with discussion earlier.

Overall, I think several of these topics (and the related omissions on his Jewish policies) shows the danger of relying largely on historical biographies to construct a rounded picture of the subject. Other groups of historians have important views also, and are likely to express these in their own literatures, while biographies of English Kings will be written primarily from an English perspective focused on questions of English good governance and creating the foundations of the English nation. There's a temptation for the authors to hero worship, and to avoid or downplay difficult topics. For Wikipedia to reach a rounded and representative view as seen by all reliable sources, it is necessary to look for these other perspectives in their own literatures. Jim Killock (talk) 12:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding next steps:

• There are some good sources for Edward I and Wales, the period being a major topic of scholarship unsurprisingly. I have a 1988 textbook "Edward I and Wales" which covers many of the points. There is also in the references "The Age of Conquest: Wales 1063-1415" by RR Davies from 2001, and of course "Hanes Cymru" also in translation (A History of Wales). I note these were not found or considered in the FAC review although the question was brought up.
• Similarly there are some good texts regarding Ireland and Edward I, although I am not familiar with this period of Irish history at all. The first place to look appears to be "A new history of Ireland Volume II 1169-1534", which contains a dedicated chapter on Edward's Lordship, "The years of Crisis, 1254-1315" and a further chapter on the wars that were provoked in the period "A Land of War", both by James Lydon. There is by Robin Frame, "Ireland and Britain 1170 to 1450", and other works that may be of relevance. The themes from Lydon appear to be: the early takeover by Edward and some squabbling with his father; Edward treating Ireland as a revenue source and little else; corruption and incompetence in the administrators Edward appointed and repeatedly sacked; over-taxation to meet his war demands; speculation over food exports during the Welsh and Gascon wars; problems emerging from the Edwardian weak administration including a revival of the fortunes of the Gaelic areas' leadership, leading to regular wars in the period and following centuries. So not a very pretty record, and one that has parallels in Wales in terms of the methods of government.

I can probably do the section on Wales without too much risk of serious error, but it's harder for me to approach the Irish history texts without some help and review. It seems to me that it may be sensible to take the article back through a FA Review, especially as there doesn't seem to be much interest here in making further changes, and I understand that @Unlimitedlead is in semi-retirement. External review would also mean that any changes I suggest or make regarding Wales or the prior changes regarding Anglo-Jewish history and anti-semitism got some oversight; likewise anything done on religious views etc. Jim Killock (talk) 21:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We already have the article Conquest of Wales by Edward I. Why would we need a dedicated section here? Dimadick (talk) 23:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the lack of clarity.[1] I mean, the missing observations regarding Edward's legacy in Wales as is missing at the section Edward I of England#Legacy. See above, (The sentence included from Marc Morris doesn't touch on these points; even if domination is considered inevitable, that wouldn't preclude an assessment of Edward's methods or resulting reputation.) and also at FAC review ("Do we have information about Welsh historians' view of Edward?"; "As far as I am aware, there are no authoritative works on Edward I written from a Welsh perspective") which as I hope you can see, is not the case.

[1] NB: there is a section Edward I of England#Conquest of Wales.

Jim Killock (talk) 00:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted a short review of reviews of Edward I at Michael Prestwich#Biography of Edward I. Fairly similar criticisms could be made of this article, which I think was largely based on it, looking at the citations. While the reviews are complementary about his scholarship, they frequently observe an imbalance of subject matter. Other than the aspects listed above, these include:

• Over-sympathetic treatment of his decisions, underplaying his mistakes and excusing his inconsistency and promise-breaking
• Lack of attention to Edward's impact on Wales and Scotland (not just legacy judgements, but actions and results)
• Inattention to the military tactics used
• Lack of attention to social and religious aspects
• Not consulting French language sources regarding Edward and Gascony

The reviews also raise an interesting question about the moral standards by which to judge Edward. On the one hand, he did what he felt he needed to do to be a strong and successful leader; on the other, his contemporaries knew and understood concepts like mercy, forgiveness and cruelty. This could be discussed in the legacy section.

These should be added to the things to look at during an FA review. Jim Killock (talk) 17:51, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all, as mentioned above, I've put the page in for FA review so we can take another look at Welsh and Irish scholarship on Edward I, and perhaps review what is there about Scotland, Eleanor and a few other matters. I hope to put some work into this myself but especially given the lack of response or active editors here feel that I need some guidance making edits in these areas, some of which are less familiar to me. Jim Killock (talk) 07:52, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added possible material from Welsh scholarship to the review for checking, if anyone wants to take a look. Jim Killock (talk) 14:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]