Talk:Gay men

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Gay men article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 60 days

This article was nominated for deletion on 25 January 2021. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

LGBT studies This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles Sexology and sexuality High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Sociology High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Gender studies High‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Domestic violence in lesbian relationships · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Wikipedia requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention Men's Issues High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Men's Issues, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Men's Issues articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Men's IssuesWikipedia:WikiProject Men's IssuesTemplate:WikiProject Men's IssuesMen's Issues articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Neither source provides a credit for the designer of this flag, or its widespread adoption by the group it is said to represent, so I question it being used here in any sort of definitive manner. Maybe "a gay men's pride flag". Greyspeir (talk) 21:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm quite surprised that that flag is used in the article. Very few sources describe it, and it appear that the only ones that do are these lgbt flag fandom groups who have thousands of flags for some reason. Why not just use the regular rainbow pride flag? —Panamitsu (talk) 21:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Greyspeir and @Panamitsu I removed it. In addition to the concerns above, it is not discussed in the article. S0091 (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

...I don't think it does the cause any good to have 3 images of purported historical "gay sex" on the page. It reduces the concept to a merely sexual one. Also, I'm skeptical the Pre-Columbian image is even contextually appropriate as there is nothing in the image notes declaring it an image of gay men in particular, or even of two men, for that matter. Haven't we gone to great lengths to demonstrate that homosexual acts don't define gay men? Greyspeir (talk) 18:46, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is quite a bit that I don't agree with in that comment. I'll start by saying that the only 'cause' here is the creation of an encyclopaedia that (as neutrally as possible) reflects what

reliable sources say about a subject. The fact that, as an editor, I may or may not also be a gay man must be irrelevant to what I contribute to this effort (full disclosure: I identify as a exclusively homosexual cismale human). Second, three images out of 34 in the article is about as far from reduc[ing] the concept to a merely sexual one as you can get! If anything, it's emasculating. Sexuality is a key element of gay men's experience (at least it has been for me). Being encyclopaedically neutral does not require being neutered. Lastly, those are sections about the historical views of gayness. It is anachronistic in the extreme to pretend that gay men (by whatever term may have been in use in the time and culture presented) were not at that time largely defined by, often celebrated in, and usually depicted through their sexual expression. To retroactively emasculate them is, in my view, highly disrespectful of the lived experience of millions of gay men throughout history -- including me. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 19:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

We can disagree on our philosophy then. I won't lose sleep. I do have a problem with some of the images being clearly "men engaging in homosexual acts" rather than images of "gay men". There is no indication in the sourcing of the images to indicate they are gay men. Greyspeir (talk) 22:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about gay men in sports, Asian and other media, politics, etc? George Ho (talk) 19:24, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah there is a lot missing in this article—most notably, positivity. It’s so negative and depressing and ignores so much of the positive, cultural topics. Sports being one of them. Feel free to add a section and cite some sources. Andrew Z. Colvin • Talk 03:33, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Remove "pre-dates Christianity". Unnecesarry mention, as Christianity is not the bar in which every English speaker measures themself by. Biased mention. Christianity is a religion--personal and private and has nothing to do with the lives of homosexuals. 73.73.26.99 (talk) 04:31, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The reference appears perfectly appropriate in context: In cultures influenced by Abrahamic religions, the law and the church established sodomy as a transgression against divine law or a crime against nature. The condemnation of anal sex between males, however, predates Christian belief. Without that sentence, it is implied that the law and church were the first to deem anal sex between males unacceptable. Tollens (talk) 10:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]