Talk:Great Replacement

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Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2023

This post provides false information that imposes a false political agenda. Please remove mention of conspiracy or right wing mention as it is unrelated to politics. 2601:5C4:4301:4240:EC37:4560:E077:3BAB (talk) 18:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What post? - FlightTime (open channel) 19:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is misinformation

If you look at Frances demographics based on race since the early 1900's this is no longer conspiracy 2601:58C:407F:3450:A040:8B06:8F52:AA31 (talk) 09:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So, is the French government imposing a one-child policy upon Whites? Guess not. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is it relevant to the fact, or not, the original major ethnicity is getting replaced by a foreign ones?
Whether the "great replacement" is encouraged or not by some malicious hidden intent (conspiracy theory) isn't involved to the fact a population is factually getting replaced by one or some others in proportion of population.
And it's not nationalist/racist to observe this phenomenon with objective eyes. 195.101.88.55 (talk) 15:32, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Framing it as "replaced" certainly is nationalist/racist. Objective eyes call it migration. EvergreenFir (talk) 15:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can we include the figure in the article? I would like to be enlightened and understand whether it's a phenomenon or not. Some say it's a conspiracy theory. I think a figure would be helpful to determine whether that is true or not. 82.147.226.185 (talk) 15:56, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The goal of a Wikipedia article is not to encourage
WP:Original Research, but rather to summarize the description of a topic by all of the significant opinions on a topic.Sadads (talk) 12:10, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply
]

Figure?

Would it make sense to add a figure showing the absence or presence of displacement over time in various countries? I'm guessing this kind of data must be available for countries such as Germany, France and Sweden? 82.147.226.185 (talk) 15:54, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Demographic changes naturally occur. That's not what this article is about. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What O3000 said. The conspiracy theory is the cause of the change. Not the change itself. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:16, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This sentence confused me at first because of slightly clumsy wording. It should be: The conspiracy theory is about the cause of the change. (The conspiracy theory did not cause the change.) --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The elephant in the room (which you are carefully tip-toeing around) is that the reason this conspiracy theory exists at all is because of that demographic change. To neglect to even mention said change can only be a misguided ideological motivation, and, I would argue, this has backfired and contributed to perceptions of minorities as a larger proportion of the population than they really are in most countries, multiplying the divisiveness. 172.59.186.91 (talk) 14:03, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That'd be kind of
WP:SYNTH though. This isn't an article about demographic change - it's an article about a white-supremacist delusion surrounding demographic change. Simonm223 (talk) 14:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Bah. If that demographic change went in the other direction, the sort of people who believe in that stuff would find another excuse for xenophobic conspiracy theories. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gemini chatbot race replacement

I recently added this content which I had copied from Gemini_(chatbot).

User:Firefangledfeathers deleted it and commented, "Reverted good faith edits by Mn06hithere227 (talk): This content and the sources cited are not about the great replacement conspiracy theory."

I am curious to hear what others think of this:

In February 2024, users of

wokeness".[1][2][3] In response, product lead Jack Krawczyk said that Google was "working to improve these kinds of depictions immediately", and Google paused Gemini's ability to generate images of people.[4][5][6]

Mn06hithere227 (talk) 23:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to agree that Great Replacement is not the right place for this content. Great Replacement Theory primarily deals with a purported conspiracy to replace white people demographically in white majority countries. This AI prompting error would appear to be more related to a failure related to corporate diversity efforts. An article in that area might be a more appropriate place for this content. Ottawajin (talk) 06:55, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No connection to the subject. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:37, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Robertson, Adi (February 21, 2024). "Google apologizes for 'missing the mark' after Gemini generated racially diverse Nazis". The Verge. Archived from the original on February 21, 2024. Retrieved February 22, 2024.
  2. ^ Franzen, Carl (February 21, 2024). "Google Gemini's 'wokeness' sparks debate over AI censorship". VentureBeat. Archived from the original on February 22, 2024. Retrieved February 22, 2024.
  3. ISSN 0307-1235. Archived
    from the original on February 22, 2024. Retrieved February 22, 2024.
  4. ^ Kharpal, Arjun (February 22, 2024). "Google pauses Gemini AI image generator after it created inaccurate historical pictures". CNBC. Archived from the original on February 22, 2024. Retrieved February 22, 2024.
  5. ISSN 0261-3077. Archived
    from the original on February 22, 2024. Retrieved February 22, 2024.
  6. ^ Duffy, Catherine; Thorbecke, Clare (2024-02-22). "Google to pause Gemini AI model's image generation | CNN Business". CNN. Archived from the original on 2024-02-22. Retrieved 2024-02-22.

Emphasis from "Replacement Migration," but not vice versa

It's been suggested more than once that this concept is directly linked with published studies such as the UN Replacement Migration papers that disambiguate/emphasize with this Great Replacement article. It is obviously and prominently linked in the lower traffic article, but official editors refuse to acknowledge the inclusion or citation in the opposite direction, from within this article. 

I personally feel it is already disingenuous to suggest the GR theory is a "conspiracy theory," and not an ideology or response to an ideology about immigration, demographics, etc. To completely ignore or dismiss the real, studied, and cited basis for this response to an idealogical solution to a complex problem, appears to be it's own bias.
 Im sure this is improperly formatted, and lacking all the bespoke Wiki vocabularly, links etc. Im also not qualified to make an actual edit, if it's even possible. However, I hope that showing up here and presenting a decent argument for a less bias Wikipedia can be appreciated in good faith, and that someone else will be able to improve the actual articles. 2601:603:381:7640:216E:301C:9767:74C2 (talk) 02:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You think "I personally feel" is "a decent argument"?
Wikipedia articles are based on
reliable sources, not on the feelings of random people on the internet. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Well said. It should be mentioned - directly in the preambule, not at the bottom - "White demographic decline" article and pro-immigration policy in EU as background / fuel, why do not mention it? Clearly biased. Feww2 (talk) 11:08, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I repeat: Get reliable sources. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:40, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Every unbiased native speaking editor can find them. It's common sense. That when Merkel invited 1 million migrants in Germany, it fueled "replacement" sentiment. Feww2 (talk) 09:42, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it's so easy, then bring them. You are the one who wants to add something that confirms your opinion. It's your job to find a foundation, you cannot delegate that to others. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Somebody has no idea how to cite sources, so I'll do it for him:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10109-018-00290-y
Depopulation is projected, with the opposing outlier being immigrant fertility. The demographic picture is not in question, the conspiracy theory here merely lies in the assertion of some sort of perverse motivations to allow this, or an ideology in response to demographic change, rather than that demographic change itself. 172.59.186.91 (talk) 13:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This does not appear to be correct.

The "great replacement" conspiracy theory is a misnomer, it is intact named replacement migration and is an economic policy that has been in place since 2000.

The United nations noted most of the western nations (and others) had sub replacement birth rates and as such would have a negative economic effect as time goes one, as such multiple nations began mass importing of migrants as workers from other nations.

You can find the document here on Google as Wikipedia has blacklisted it for some reason.

UN replacement migration 2000.


here you see the UK government officially adopts the policy

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a797506ed915d0422068986/migration-report-july-2000.pdf

While the migration observatory tracks a clear trend showing the native English population will become a minority in a relative short period.

minhttps://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-impact-of-migration-on-uk-population-growth/

As such the page should be updated to show this is in fact not a conspiracy theory linked to neo Nazis but a government policy recommended by the United nations and implemented by the UK Labour Party under Tony Blair and continued under the Tories under David Cameron Et-al Formosa1701 (talk) 23:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the entire article. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
None of the documents cited say anything like the conclusions you draw from them. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 00:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the Oxford Observatory directly states given current demographic projections the native English will become a minority.
The UN replacement migration policy is also clearly the influence of the 2000 policy on migration under the Blair government even using the same data and information. Formosa1701 (talk) 01:49, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article is not about demographics, it's about a conspiracy theory that it's all a plot. See the big red notice at the top of this page about drawing your own conclusions and presenting them as fact. Acroterion (talk) 01:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Article is indeed about demographics as how those demographic changes are feeding this "conspiracy theory", the facts however show that demographic change is indeed happening and that government policy based upon the UN replacement migration report is the reason.
The oxford migration observatory data also backs this up as since 1997 the start of mass immigration in the UK has only increased as this policy was carried forward by multiple governments. Formosa1701 (talk) 11:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You would have to define "native English," which the Oxford report does not do; the Replacement Migration UN document from 24 years ago is a report, not a policy; and similarly, the UK document from 24 years ago, cites to the UN for basic facts. Not only are you peddling unsupported and unpersuasive arguments, the arguments are laughably out of date. Dumuzid (talk) 02:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The United Nations defines native as
“Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them"
This would make the white English, Welsh, Scots and Irish natives in this context, the report is the origin of the policy, the policy has clearly been implemented across multiple western nations and we are seeing the result, this policy cannot be out of date if it is still in use as shown by the current Tory government policy allowing over a million legal migrants per year.
The facts and data speak for themselves. Formosa1701 (talk) 11:20, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your analysis of old data isn’t admissible on Wikipedia. Reliable sources describe a conspiracy theory, whose proponents turn up here regularly to promote. Acroterion (talk) 11:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The data is current and ongoing, you are incorrect in calling it "old data" as the Oxford migration observatory keeps very recent records. The UN replacement migration report is still also still current as it is still used to underpin current policies.
Reliable sources show that replacement migration is happening as per the report and as such the Wiki should be updated with a tab to reflect that this report exists, is implemented within government policy and trends show that native people are being displaced due to this policy.
this will aid in allowing free flow of information for people to be better informed in their voting choices as this page existing is spreading misinformation claiming government migration policy is a "far right" conspiracy theory. Formosa1701 (talk) 12:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence the report is still current
A key question widely debated in policy circles, particularly at international level, is whether migration is a possible solution to the economic and social challenges associated with population ageing and decline – i.e. the sustainability of pension systems, the provision of long-term care for older people, labour and skill shortages, higher labour cost, a decrease of the relative influence in the global economy. The question has been brought to the attention of policy-makers at the beginning of last decade by the United Nations’ report on ‘replacement migration’ (United Nations 2000) – although several earlier studies had already explored the issue (Blanchet 1989, Coleman 1992). The general conclusion of these studies has been that, although highly positive net migration can contribute to sustaining population and workforce growth, in the long run it cannot prevent population ageing under any plausible and politically sustainable scenario.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/primers/demographic-objectives-in-migration-policy-making/ Formosa1701 (talk) 12:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even granted that it's true, it does not concern this article. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No one is arguing about demographic data, not even the sources in the article. The article is not about the population changes per se and does not suggest that said changes are false or misconstrued or that people who point it out are conspiracy theorists. Rather, the article is about the conspiracy theory related to those data, namely that there is intentional complicity by certain elites with the goal of decreasing the precent of the White population. That's it. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:52, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your analysis of new data isn’t admissible on Wikipedia either. Why don't you just read the rules about
WP:OR? --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:23, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply
]
Have you read the article and its sources? It's about the conspiracy theory, not your interpretations of demographics. And again, read the big red notice, which says the same thing. Acroterion (talk) 12:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have read the article, it directly references demographics as the source for the "conspiracy theory" and makes the claim "the great replacement" is a conspiracy theory, it is not, it is a misnomer, as such the article should be updated to include the fact that this "conspiracy theory" and is in fact misunderstood due to misinformation, keep the data referencing the conspiracy theory but also include the data showing the correct information on the subject to better inform people.
Wikipedia is about educating without bias and inclusion of the replacement migration report will aid this. Formosa1701 (talk) 12:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source of the conspiracy theory is conspiracy theorists. Demographic change is simply the "event" they use as described here. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Formosa1701 is surely veering into forum territory and this should be hatted I think. Doug Weller talk 13:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not to mention this is a single purpose account wasting our time. Doug Weller talk 13:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you should relearn your British history. This description makes the English a colonial power. So perhaps you should be championing England for the Welsh? Remember, Hengist and Horsa were invading immigrants. Dumuzid (talk) 13:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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