Talk:Hamilton (musical)/Archive 1

As noted above, the synopsis was excessively long — over 3,200 words. I've tried to chip it down, but as it stands now I've only gotten it down to about 2,000. I'm sure that if someone really "sweats" it word-by-word, they can get it smaller, but I'm not entirely sure that's necessary. I checked some other musical synopses to compare lengths, and I found that:

• Into the Woods' synopsis is a similarly ridiculous nearly 3,000 words, but its plot is probably at least as complex as Hamilton's, if not moreso.
• Wicked's synopsis is nearly 2,300 words, which to my eye also looks a little excessive, but it is a Good Article, so this gives ample precedent for a ~2,000+ word synopsis.
• Phantom's synopsis is about 1,250 words, which is about as short as I can imagine would be possible for a musical as long and complex as these four. Even this is over the 800-1,100 word guideline.

Based on these precedents, I feel like my 2,000-word version is entirely reasonable and thus I have removed the excessive-detail notice from the plot summary section. For the most part, I edited down the previously-existing summary, but here and there I wrote longer sections from scratch (the opening song and the segment from "A Winter's Ball" to "Wait For It", for example). I did the whole thing in plaintext and then added the wikilinks back in after the fact, so forgive me if I missed any. I hope it's all satisfactory. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 00:32, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

For the record, this is what the guideline at

Wow! What a lot of work and thought you must have put into this project--nice! I haven't seen the musical, but I took a look at one of the articles (Satisfied) and just added some wiklinks, formatting, minor copy edits. For a reason I can't explain, I wanted a date in the lead, so I added the Broadway date, but feel free to remove it as it is in the infobox. I also added the songs template to the talk page. I assume you will wikilink the songs in the Hamilton album article. I probably will not have time to look at any oher of these songs, for a good while, but...thanks for these.Flami72 (talk) 17:07, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

...as Hamilton was just being completed around this time and lots of Miranda's responses are fascinating.--Coin945 (talk) 05:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Go for it. Brianga (talk) 18:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The article says it transferred to Broadway in August. 2015. But we saw it in previews there in July, about a week before its August opening. Do we have a source for when it really moved to Broadway? Frank Lynch (talk) 01:11, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

I watched Great Performances tonight on PBS. The episode is called Hamilton's America. It covers highlights of Hamilton's life, how Lin-Manuel Miranda found the biography by Ron Chernow, how it seized his imagination, and covers the 5-1/2 years it took for him to write and open the show. Insights by Miranda and other cast members are woven throughout. The thoughts of others are featured, including those of Chernow and Presidents Bush and Obama. Substantial segments from the major songs are included.

Since this documentary gives a lot of insight into Miranda's creative process and the birth of the musical, I think it will be useful for the authors here. Hamilton's America is available on PBS to view. The running time is 1:22:35; the webpage says that access expires 11/19/16. http://www.pbs.org/arts/pbs-arts-festival/2016/great-performances-hamiltons-america/ I'm sure that you will enjoy it.

Thank you for your attention, Wordreader (talk) 05:29, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I'm a student learning about Wikipedia. I noticed that citation #25 ("Mandy Gonzalez Sets Date to Replace Renee Elise Goldsberry in Broadway's Hamilton") is missing a URL. --Rebeccaldenyer (talk) 19:32, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Finished to ref, thanks! (Actually not missing the url but missing author, date, work.) Flami72 (talk) 19:50, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

What is this supposed to mean? 98.143.78.114 (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

It means that it's deemed revolutionary (haha, make a pun), or something never seen before in this culture.

talk

) 21:08, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Adding ClueBot III's script to archive this talk page. Elisfkc (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Some more interesting facts that could be added are how before each show, Lin Manuel Miranda would have a lottery where people could enter by paying ten dollars. They would then end up being front row if drawn. He would then also put on a "Ham4Ham" mini performance, varying every time with different people, songs, dances, etc. The article seem unbiased and neutral, as it just sums up the accolades of the show as well as the description of the music and acts. Artists who are on the Hamilton Mixtape could also be added. Paige Kremer (talk) 04:59, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I added a quote by Steven Van Zandt that is highly relevant to this article. While the article sources Rolling StoneWall Street Journal, clearly state that Van Zandt agreed with the Hamilton cast's comments, he made a solid point as to the way it was handled. Can someone explain why this should be removed the way it was? The section on Mike Pence seems very one sided and some balance is needed. thanks. H McCringleberry (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:10, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• Your claim about its relevance is exactly the point. What does Van Zandt's opinion have to do with anything? Was he directly involved? No. Also if you read the source, his actual statement was cherry-picked in this article to sound more negative than it actually was. He also said: "The statement is beautiful. And completely inappropriate at that time. And I would defend the cast's right to be inappropriate forever." Even his own bandmate disagreed with him. But that's the point. Please see
  WP:UNDUE. This section is just about what happened that night, what was said, Pence's reaction, Trump's response and the newsworthy aftermath. All that is already in the section. It's not about quoting every celeb's 2 cents after the fact, whether pro or con. That really would make it one-sided, as most celebs' public statements supported the cast. So what? Those distractions would send the section off the rails. If anything, celeb reactions might be in a separate article, which you're certainly welcomed to start. X4n6 (talk
  ) 01:24, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. thanks. --H McCringleberry (talk) 19:52, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Glad to help. Cheers! X4n6 (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

There was a lot of coverage last spring over the "NON-WHITE" casting call that was put out. I think this is relevant to the history of the show.

• Nessouli, Afeef (31 March 2016). "Broadway's 'Hamilton' under fire for controversial casting call". New York City: CNN.
• Paulson, Michael (30 March 2016). "'Hamilton' Producers Will Change Job Posting, but Not Commitment to Diverse Casting". New York City: The New York Times.
• Ng, David (30 March 2016). "'Hamilton' musical runs into trouble over 'non-white' casting notice". Los Angeles, California: Los Angles Times.

Thoughts?  Eric Cable  !  Talk  20:05, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

@EricCable: If this was an article on only the Broadway production, sure. In my mind, it is not notable for the musical as a whole, which is what this article is about. Elisfkc (talk) 20:19, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

OK I get what you're saying, but the same casting call went out in LA and SFO and they continue to have "non-white" casting policy with most of the roles going into the tour. Eric Cable  !  Talk  20:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see your issue. The producers have made clear that a major point of the production is to show the founding fathers in predominantly non-traditional, non-white casting. That's well established. The fact that the tour follows that same principle is neither newsworthy, nor surprising. The inelegant - and inaccurate - wording of the, since corrected, audition notice is all this is about. My concern is

WP:UNDUE, as we shouldn't provide a misimpression, since there are actually several white roles and castmembers in both the Broadway and current touring productions. X4n6 (talk

) 22:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

• The main thing preventing this article going higher at the moment is too much irrelevant content.. As per WP:Musicals guidelines, Cast list should be West End/Broadway only, with notable cast members of other productions in prose, although I appreciate many of the performers in Hamilton are notable. It may be worth going for a separate article for casting information to be created like this one for Billy Elliot the Musical. The notable cast replacements list is also far too long and is unsustainable going forward. This full list could be included in such an article (providing it remains referenced) and a shortened version in the article. A full list of current casts should not be present! this information is readily available on the productions website.
• Touring cities - Content is not neeeded
• Awards - I propose a split to a new article similar to
  this one for the musical Kinky Boots. With new productions opening all the time, again this list is already too long for this article.Mark E (talk
  ) 07:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Is there a way to reorganize the notable cast replacements section to be more like The Phantom of the Opera (1986 musical) ?

Angus I think that's a good idea, I was trying to remember where I had seen a replacement cast section like that previously. Phantom had been running 30ish years and is much better. I'd still opt to delete the current cast lists as anyone notable would appear in the replacement cast history. Happy to take a go at doing this when I find the time!.Mark E (talk) 17:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

 Done Please look this over and feel free to remove non-notable entries from the lists. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Mark E Are Chicago and First U.S. tour West End considered major enough to be listed up in the Original productions list? I think they can be removed from that section and left in the Current casts of English-language productions section with former cast members moved to the notables. Any other thoughts? AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I stand by that the Casts of current and upcoming productions table should go because any notable replacements could be listed below, and it is something that could prevent the article getting GA for example as it doesn't fit the WP:Musicals guidelines. It's always been a difficult area when a show is so popular. See Hair (musical) for a "Good" assessed musical theatre article - you'll see its more about the show than the many casts throughout the years. I think for the main cast table you can get away with merging the off-broadway/broadway casts (only one cast member is different), Chicago - Yes I would keep this as a major production in the cast table, but not the tour. West End production will belong there but the show doesn't begin previews for another 7 months...Mark E (talk) 20:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I removed the refrains / catchphrases section as this reads more like a trivia section and synthesis referencing just the lyrics from the musical itself. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:59, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Several of the major characters in the story are accompanied by their own refrain, worked into future songs by the company.

• When Alexander Hamilton is addressed by name, it is almost always in the style of his titular song. The line "I am not throwing away my shot" is also repeated throughout the play in reference to him.^[1][2]
• Nearly all of the musical's characters say "Aaron Burr, sir" when they address him for the first time, in the style of the song titled such. Hamilton also addresses him like this throughout the play.^[2][3] Other characters also repeat Hamilton's taunt at Burr, "If you stand for nothing, what will you fall for?".^[2]
• When either of the main Schuyler sisters (Angelica or Eliza) are introduced to someone new, their names are sung like they are in "The Schuyler Sisters".^[2][4]
• George Washington says, "That's an order from your commander," to Hamilton in nearly all of their confrontations. The line, "Who lives, who dies, who tells your story," is also repeated in the manner the Washington says it in History Has its Eyes on You.

Agree with these edits, they all go without saying Mark E (talk) 20:12, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

This edit request to Hamilton (musical) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I'm a student at College of Dupage, and for an English assignment we have to edit a Wikipedia article. When I first started looking at this page it was not locked. I was wondering if I can continue to edit this page. My current edits I want to add are down below, with the section they will be under, and citations. Thank you.

Under the Legacy and Impact section Broadway: Hamilton uses two different transformations to show change. The musical uses the background of the American Revolution and also uses the musical genre of Hip Hop to tell a story. [1]

In the "Use in Education" section In 2016, Moraine Valley Community College started a Hamilton appreciation movement, Straight Outta Hamilton, hosting panels and events that talk about the musical itself and relate them to current events.[2]

Jump up ^ Miranda, Lin-Manuel, and Jeremy McCarter. Hamilton: The Revolution. New York, NY: Grand Central, 2016. Print.
Jump up ^ https://onebook.morainevalley.edu/ Shapirob (talk) 17:34, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Since you're with WikiEd, request confirmed status, maybe? Make sure to include the link to your course. ProgrammingGeek ^talktome 20:23, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

 Note: Pinging @Shapirob: for response and marking as answered. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:02, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

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There are numerous statements in this section, supported not by reference to reviews or critiques of the play, but by references to history. e.g "However, Hamilton remained close friends with Washington and highly influential in the political sphere.[116]", where the ref is to an article about the historical person, not a review of the musical. This is

The section "Historical differences" is helpful in highlighting how far the show strays from historical documented facts to meet the needs of fictional drama. However awesome a piece of art the show is, it cannot be read as a historically accurate portrait of events, as Lin-Manuel Miranda himself states in his book "Hamilton: The Revolution" and in this respect the section is fully referenced and appropriate. Isananni (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

It can be interesting to highlight/read about such things, but since this is WP, we should only do it as a summary of reliable sources that discuss these inaccuracies in connection to the musical. WP:s basic position is "Well of course it´s not historically accurate, it´s a freaking musical, an entertainment!" In short, apply the spirit of the advice at

WP:FILMHIST. Leave the rest to sites like http://hamiltonmusical.wikia.com/wiki/Hamilton_Wiki Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk

) 12:33, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

The section is perfectly adherent to WP policies, while I personally do not share your view that WP's terms in describing its position include "freaking". Please refrain from offensive language per

WP:PG. Isananni (talk

) 13:02, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I´m reading the section and I disagree, so I may do some editing here. For starters, the bit about Angelica seems to expand beyond what´s in the sources (the short interview seems an ok source though). The bit about Burr is unsourced. Language such as "has been one of the biggest mischaracterizations of the real Alexander Hamilton for centuries" seems way to passionate to be stated in WP:s voice, but I haven´t actually read the source yet.

About "freaking", because of your comment I checked it at Wikiquote, and this made me chuckle: "Freaking is often used in motion pictures as a substitute for fucking so that characters can be shown to swear without the motion picture incurring censorship or a higher certificate than it otherwise might." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:42, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

@

WP:PG applies to all users editing on Wikipedia, including supposedly undercover Hollywood stars and this is not a movie. Isananni (talk

) 13:56, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

You´ve slightly lost me, I´m afraid. I don´t get "supposedly undercover Hollywood stars" and your

WP:PG links are not that helpful: "This page in a nutshell: Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are pages that serve to document the good practices that are accepted in the Wikipedia community. This policy describes how WP policies and guidelines should normally be developed and maintained." That´s off topic, isn´t it? But, this may not be a fruitful line of discussion to continue, so we can just end it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk

) 14:11, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Using offensive language, however camouflaged, is not WP good practice, if it ever is. Isananni (talk) 14:27, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

In that section, can you tag {{

Thank you @AngusWOOF:, that's a sensible suggestion. Isananni (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Here are some more articles you can use, just from a simple Internet lookup: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Apologies in advance if they were already used. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 14:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Isananni please try to use the articles that highlight the differences between the historical account and the musical. Citing Chernow's book chapters is pushing the original research / synthesis issue. [8] It's better when there's a news article that does the comparison instead of the Wikipedia article presenting the differences. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

reliable source in the immediate fruition was better than no source at all and it is actually difficult to reference something a character did NOT do other than stating that there is no evidence at all he/she did it other than in Miranda's fictional work that some people unfortunately take as documented facts. Furthermore, unlike in the subsection "critics on historical differences", reporting documented facts with reliable sources is NOT original research, while expressing the opinion that the show's manipulation of the historical events gives a distorted and unsympathetic picture of Jefferson would be original research unless, as is the case in this article, it reports an acknowledged historian's opinion with related citation. I hope the difference is clear. Isananni (talk

) 17:43, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

BTW, this was also discussed at the OR noticeboard in April: [9]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:26, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Why is he listed as still being on Broadway "2015-present"? He left last July and currently shooting Mary Poppins. It should change to reflect that or to '2016'. 82.44.112.108 (talk) 22:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Because those are the original cast members for those locations/tours. Read a section further for the replacements. Elisfkc (talk) 22:23, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

A good point though, MT articles don't tend to list the production dates within the casting tables. Can see how this could appear confusing so will edit these out, especially since all the production dates are there already in prose.Mark E (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Does anybody have access to the instrumentation for Hamilton? It should definitely be included in the article, in my opinion. Anyone with a program can that--I might have access to one soon.Rev. Cory A. Parkinson, Composer (ASCAP), Conductor, Pianist/Vocalist, Musicologist, Minister & Film Critic (talk) 01:03, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

I would be inclined to disagree about full instrumentation being included in the article. It is very production specific and probably

WP:TOOMUCH, and doesn't fall into the WP:MT guidelines. There is nothing revolutionary about the orchestrations for Hamilton Mark E (talk

) 15:47, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2017

This edit request to Hamilton (musical) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

sorry to disturb your wonderful page but it doesn't actually include Samuel Seabury or John Adams in the cast and I was wondering who they were played by, could you please include that? -Angelica.S AngelicaSchulyer (talk) 21:18, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: We can't include cast members if the requestor does not know what role they played.

talk

) 21:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Samuel Seabury was played by Thayne Jasperson. John Adams isn't a character. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CoffeePro567 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

This edit request to Hamilton (musical) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the Chicago production section, the statement "It is currently booking through April 29, 2018." should be updated to "It is currently booking through September 2, 2018." with this citation from the Chicago Tribune. Danielanewman (talk) 16:21, 21 December 2017 (UTC)