Talk:Himariote dialect

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Real dialect or Fabrication?

There are only two sources about this so-called dialect, both of which are Serb or Greek(not rs).--I Pakapshem (talk) 20:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The firt main source of this article says nothing about a "Himariote Greek dialect"
  • Gregorič, Nataša (2008). "Contested Spaces and Negotiated Identities in Dhermi/Drimades of Himare/Himara area, Southern Albania" (PDF). University of Nova Gorica.Not even one such mention! This is clear
    WP:CFORK--I Pakapshem (talk) 21:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
    ]
WP:CFORK? Fork of what? That makes absolutely no sense. --
talk) 22:17, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply
]


From the Gregorič source that is supposed not to say anything about the Himariote Greek dialect:

  • Abstract: "The main subject of this thesis is the ongoing, unstable reconstruction of space and place in the village of Dhërmi/Drimades in Himarë/Himara area, Southern Albania."
  • Acknowledgements: "I am indebted to my interpreter Juliana Vera who patiently helped me to understand, both local Greek dialect as well as Albanian language."
  • Notes on transliteration (p. 10): "Throughout my thesis the words in Albanian language are written in italic, the words in local Greek language are written in italic and underlined and the terms that signify Ottoman Turkish administrative units are underlined."
  • p. 18: "Entela translated her answers and commented: “Oh dear, she can hardly speak Albanian… I guess she speaks Greek like most of the people in Himarë!” ... Entela translated the lady’s words: “She said that she is Greek!” I commented that her answer had actually been Vorioepirot (Northern Epirot)."
  • p. 19: "Because her father comes from Palasa, the neighbouring village of Dhërmi/Drimades, where the majority of inhabitants speak the local Greek dialect, she was keen to hear and practice it."
  • p. 20: "As my command of the local Greek was very bad Maria introduced us..."
  • p. 22: "He put his jacket away and leaned towards us, now speaking in the local Greek dialect: “We are going to Athens next week to visit our children. ...”"
  • p. 27: "Namely, a discussion between her and Entela showed how the origin and belonging of the people of Dhërmi/Drimades are related to language and territory and understood in terms of the nationstate and regionalism. The old woman’s awkward use of the Albanian code and constant switching to the local Greek one provoked disapprobation in Entela and led her to question the woman about her belonging: “Are you Greek or Albanian?” Interestingly enough, the old woman chose none of two options. She declared herself as being a Northern Epirote. While she recognised this as a distinctive identity, Entela did not think of it as a kind of a Greek identity."

Do I need to go on with further examples? Wikipedia articles are about notable topics, not about exact phrases. Here is a third source in which the local dialect plays an important role. [1] Hans Adler 12:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, from Himarë:

Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: Ethnic and National Groups Around the World Volume II D-K by James Minahan,2002,
ISBN 0313321108
,page 581: "Greek-speaking populations outside the three districts of Sarander, Gjirokaster, and Permet are not officialy considered as part of the Epirote community. In 1995 the district of Himare ,called Chimarra by the Epirotes , whose classification as a Greek-speaking district had been revoked in 1945 for failiure to support the establishment of communism in Albanian voted to reclaim its status as an Epirote-majority district.The postcommunist Albanian government has been accused of restricting the Greek-speaking population to just 60,000 by withholding documents identifying Himare as part of the Epirote minority."

Moreover, according to the same article the current mayor is president of Omonoia (organization). Hans Adler 12:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And again where does it exactly say that it speaks about the "Himariote Greek Dialect"??? It could just as easily refer to epirotic idioms of the greek language for which we do already have an article!--I Pakapshem (talk) 15:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, so we are one step further now. If you re-read what you have written above, I think you will agree that you didn't make it at all clear that you believe there is no difference between the Greek spoken in the region and the Greek spoken on the Greek side of the border. You might just as well have meant that Greek is not spoken in the region at all.
Apparently Himariote Greek is closer to Southern dialects (e.g. Peloponnese) than to Epirote. If that is indeed the case, then it would be good to have a reliable source specifically for this somewhat counterintuitive fact. Perhaps FPAS can help. Hans Adler 16:01, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake, I should be clearer. This article is called "Himariote Greek dialect". There is nothing that distincts this from some other greek dialects. What makes a dialect be himariote?

If it was a distinct dialect then why isn't even its name mentioned? Even the article title seems OR to me, since we can't find it mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by I Pakapshem (talk • contribs) 21:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The northern end of the Greek speaking word

I believe that the region isn't exactly the linguistic 'edge', although Himariote dialect lies far north from were the southern Greek dialect group is mainly spoken. I've found some works that describe the community of Narta (some 80 km north of Himara) as Greek speaking too, also with a distinct dialect [[2]], [[3]]. The term 'northern edge' for Himariote isn't exactly right. Moreover, I have to check what's the relation between Nartiote and Himariote.Alexikoua (talk) 21:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Himara a Copy/Paste of Suliots assimilation

Himariotet, (similar to Suliotet ) are the only remaining orthodox element of Laberia. The fact that today in Himara, there is a large number of families that speak Greek, is mostly related to economical reasons and Balkan geopolitics of the region. Greek language spoken in the last century in Himara is neither related to Corfu dialect (which is the closest Greek neighbor region) nor to other dialects of north of Greece, for the simple reason that is an alien dialect in this region. Greek language used in Himare is very much related to Cretan dialect, because of a certain number of emigrants or fugitives that cames to take refuge during Balkan wars. Another excellent argument to bring forward is that the majority of Family names in Himara are pure Albanian, even more pure than the rest of Albania. These names are very similar to Laberia family names like Gjonleka, Gjodeda, Gjoliku. Himarioti family names like Gjomema (Gjon Mema and not Janis Memas), Koleka (Kol Leka and not Nikolaidis Alexis), Ndrenika (Ndrek Nika and not Andreas Nikolaqis), Spiromile (Spiro Mile and not Spiridhonis Miles), Kokushta (Koke which mean “head” and Ushta that mean “spear” in Albanian) …etc, has nothing to do with Greeks. They are simply of pure Albanian race. What is happening today in Himara is actually the same tragic-comedy that happened 150 years ago, when Suliotes, from Albanian orthodox highlanders become Greek citizens. Now is Himara’s turn. We will see what is going to happen.

Cheimarriotika?

No google books results, no simple google results apart from wikipedia mirrors, no google scholar results i.e no results exist for Alexikoua's

wp:or.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk15:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply
]

talk) 16:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply
]
Zjarri: Why don't you read the article first? Which is well sourced by the way.Alexikoua (talk) 18:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recent move

I wonder why the article was moved to the simpler move "Himariote dialect" from "H. Greek Dialect". It's good to have an explanation on that.Alexikoua (talk) 11:25, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's just common practice to omit the name of the language when it can't be reasonably confused with another language's dialect. See
Lfdder (talk) 11:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply
]

Statements sourced to Nicholas 1998

I can't find anything about these in the source. —

Lfdder (talk) 11:54, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply
]

Some seem to be in Appendix A. —
Lfdder (talk) 12:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply
]
Check this one [[4]] .Alexikoua (talk) 18:50, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's dead.--
talk) 00:06, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply
]

Proper dialectology

Some of the sources for this page describe Himariote as being a separate dialect from that spoken in Palasa and Dhermi-- so why are we treating them all as the same when it's at best controversial? I.e. the source that is used to say it's spoken in Dhermi and Palase itself explicitly mentions that many authors separate tehm.--

talk) 22:27, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply
]

Some difference exists but as far I see Gregoric mentions that the 3 villages "in their day-to-day conversations locals of

Dhërmi/Drimades, Palasa and Himarë/Himara mainly use a local Greek dialect" (p.64). Thus, I assume that's considered as one dialect. However I'm not certain if there is a consensus about this.Alexikoua (talk) 14:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There doesn't seem to be a consensus. Although I'm not sure if the sources discussed are actually people who study Greek dialects -- in fact I haven't seen any such source from any Greek dialectologist on this page or elsewhere. At the moment, it's just anthropology and a lot of sociolinguistics sources with some reference to phonology, using the Slovene (?) alphabet rather than IPA. The author even calls phonological differences "accent" and I can't figure out whether they're referring to something like pitch accent (actual linguistics terminology) or just the colloquial use of the word. --
talk) 17:22, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply
]
If we could get sources from actual linguists of Greek that would be great. Perhaps Brian D. Joseph might have written on Himariote? --
talk) 17:23, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply
]
Update: a source prowl by myself has yielded some results:
* [[5]]
* [[6]]
* [[7]] (scroll down to the essay by Aristotle Spiro) (dead now: see [[8]]) --
talk) 18:03, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply
]

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Sources in the History and Politics section

I think this section currently displays an incomplete list of historical accounts regarding language and speech in the Himara region in the early Ottoman period. I believe it would be fair to present all such accounts and let the reader get a comprehensive picture. I do not think there are so many anyway. I recently added one reference of an account from 1500, which was removed by

Khirurg. After this, Demetrios added one from 1703. Can we agree to keep both these sources in the section? Thank you. Çerçok (talk) 14:37, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

The source Demetrios added is from 2016, not 1703. Do you know the difference between primary and secondary sources?
Khirurg (talk) 14:42, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Of course. Thank you for clarifying.Çerçok (talk) 16:05, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Historical events should be placed in chronological order. There is no reason to put a 13th cent. event far below events of the 16th century.... This becomes even more important when the event concerns the formation of the specific dialect this article is dedicated to.

Alexikoua (talk) 12:10, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Cercok: Can you please explain which reference claims that the 'presence of Albanian language is older than Greek in Himara' [[9]]. Nevertheless this can not a be an argument to manipulate the correct chronological order in a history section. If we have Albanian speech prior to 13th century in Himara you can make the appropriate additions. But removing the statement about the creation of the Himariote dialect from the precise chronological order equals disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 13:23, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rusakov (2021) explicitly writes that it's unknown which set of speakers precedes the other.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:54, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alexikoua Please ping me when directing a question at me. I just noticed this. What you are referring to is not a 13th century event, but a modern theoretical projection based on toponyms. Just like other scholars projected that however old the local Greek idiom is, the original language of the inhabitants of Palase was Albanian (read in the article: In Palasa, lexical borrowings from Albanian into the local Greek dialect have been found in terminology concerning village life, indicating that the culture of the village was originally Albanian and reflecting the function of the older language (Albanian) as prevailing in affairs of village life.). This is not an attested order of events but a reconstructed one. Çerçok (talk) 14:32, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the layout of the section, it is quite clear that it includes both historical attestations of modern Greek in the Himara region as well as modern theoretical projections about its presence. The first paragraph should of course present a chronological order of historically documented facts, then the following paragraph can list modern theories. That sentence about 13th century toponyms is completely out of place there. By the way, Alexikoua, this is a standard that you have actively established yourself, by making sure that every single history section in articles about Epirus and its cities or regions starts with the first mention of Albanians in a Venetian document of 1210, followed closely by one from 1337. I agree with this standard but it should be uniformly applied. Çerçok (talk) 14:32, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article is titled Himariote dialect and the formation of this dialect is part of its evolution. It's an essential piece of info and can stay at the beginning of the history section.Alexikoua (talk) 14:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Double-standards are not going to stand. History comes first, theory second. Çerçok (talk) 14:54, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The formation of the specific dialect is part of its history. No double standards at all. Further disruption in NINJA fashion will be reported.Alexikoua (talk) 15:01, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it is. You are censoring non-historical sources in relation to Albanians and the Albanian language and trying to impose them in relation to the Greek language. The section was very clearly divided into historical and modern evidence paragraphs. Now it's a chronological mess. Çerçok (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Çerçok: Can you do a list of the villages mentioned in Albanian in the first sentence about the letter to the Russian Empire?--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:13, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The specific dialect belongs to the Greek language. On the other hand this article isn't focused on Albanians and the Albanian language. The formation of the Himariote dialect is sourced and is a good beginning for an article titled as such. It's simple.Alexikoua (talk) 15:18, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This dialect exists in language contact, part of which is the result of linguistic acculturation. This is what bibliography discusses and this what wikipedia will discuss. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:22, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maleschreiber: This dialect exists in language contact[citation needed]. I wonder why you are in OR territory. There is no reference that supports your extraordinary fact. The formation of this dialect is part of the linguistic history and needs to be placed in the correct chronological order. Stop being disruptive in this case. Formation is one fact while language contact is another one. Don't mix up those two facts.Alexikoua (talk) 15:33, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Don't mix up fact with theory. Fact should be presented as truth, theory as possible, or probable. Çerçok (talk) 15:51, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Figures

The figures were removed because Bon (2008) didn't propose that 8,000 people spoke this dialect. It only discusses the number of registered inhabitants of Himara.--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:32, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

People-Language

Some linguistic studies which discuss the people and their languages were removed. If sources debate at length the historicity of Albanian/Greek speakers in the region and their linguistic contacts they should be debated at length in the article. The article can not promote a view which begins with a "continuous Greek presence" (as commented by a linguist from a university in Greece) but ignores that international linguistics considers the time of arrival of Albanians and Greeks and their languages a matter of open debate. Durraz0 (talk) 15:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you need to be precise on the issue. Simply jumping in blind reverting without stating which is the precise issue can be considered unproductive. I fail to see why you are so eager to remove sourced information without presenting a single reference that objects this statement.Alexikoua (talk) 15:16, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have not removed content. Durraz0 (talk) 15:25, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Durraz0: People and language aren't separated although these two papers discuss the language not the people. But even if we use sources which discuss the people primarily and the language secondarily, it's not an issue because the article already discusses about Greek presence in the context of ethnic Greeks which carried their language to the area. It's ahistorical overall to apply a methodology which separates the historical context from the linguistic one.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:21, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You have removed content from the beginning of the history section. Needless to say that the sourced information of formation of the specific dialect belong to this place.Alexikoua (talk) 15:30, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Side comment: There is another sentence which is not related to the language and its history and may have to be removed: At present they are still not considered as part of the recognized Greek minority by the Albanian state, while on the other hand they are counted as ethnic Greeks according to the Greek migration policy --Maleschreiber (talk) 15:35, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
what content did I remove? Durraz0 (talk) 15:37, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You removed information about the dialect formation from the beginning of the history section. All linguistic articles deserve to have a correct chronological order in this section. This equals disruption Alexikoua (talk) 15:40, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
show me what content I have removed. Durraz0 (talk) 15:42, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have not removed anything but you can report my edit if you consider it disruptive. I restored content which was removed then I explained my edit here. Durraz0 (talk) 15:47, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You did not remove anything [10]. No worries, it seems that Alexikoua had some confusion and rushed to accuse you due to the article having a considerable number of edits today.
Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:49, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

Removal of Greek language history in Himara

The northwestern Greek dialect was spoken in this area, as such I'm astonished why this information should be fully removed from an article about a Greek dialect spoken in the same region. Whether related or not to the specific Himariote dialect it deserves a place in the history section.Alexikoua (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Himariote dialect is a southern Greek dialect (please read the article), diverging sometime in the Middle Ages. Please add content on this dialect. Çerçok (talk) 22:56, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Himariote is a modern, southern Greek dialect. It didn't emerge from a supposed Doric Greek of ancient times. Similar geographical location doesn't imply any relation. There are medieval Albanian dialects spoken in Greece and there is modern Albanian spoken by immigrants. One doesn't presuppose the other.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:16, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's why we have a history section: Even modern dialects deserve to have their history and it's very typical even in modern Albanian territory. You understand that it's completely weird for a specific dialect of the Greek language to begin " It's unclear when Albanians and Himara Greeks arrived in the Himara region ... That's the epitomy of POV and should change to a neutral beginning. The focus in this article is the local Greek speech and evolution, not Greek-Albanian interaction.Alexikoua (talk) 20:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
By the way 'interaction and influences' by other languages and dialects should be included in the correspondent section.Alexikoua (talk) 21:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The mention of Doric Greek in relation to some possible influences per Kyriazis is mentioned and he doesn't propose any "continuity without interval". Himariote is not a Doric dialect. To add that in Himara a Doric Greek dialect was spoken in antiquity is as
WP:OFFTOPIC as the fact that in the early medieval ages, the common language of Himara was likely Slavic. If a direct link can't be drawn between the two, mentioning it implies a connection which isn't proposed in linguistics.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:36, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
Side comment: The -eos toponyms are three microtoponyms which reflect the dialects spoken in the Ionian islands in the Middle Ages - Kyriazis (2020).--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edit summary:

‎Çerçok, you are correct on vjeter and lashte; however, Kyriazis (2016 & 2020) gives examples that can be traced back to both ancient and medieval Greek forms. You also misplaced a sentence that pertained to the historical bilingualism.

‎Maleschreiber, Kyriazis doesn't limit the local -éos toponyms to three (Δραλέος, Ελατέος, Κασανέος), since he writes "etc." (etj.); in his 2006 and 2019 papers he provides five additional examples (Αργιλέος, Μερτέος, Φαγέος, Παπρέος, Ρωπλέος), and likewise ends with "etc.". Also, "Byzantine Ionian islands" isn't very accurate for

Demetrios1993 (talk) 12:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

Demetrios1993 the 2020 publication discussed three toponyms and if Kyriazis mentions +5 in other publications, they can be discussed too. I think that a dialectal continuum is a possibility, but much more likely I consider the transfer of a few loanwords via trade contacts with the Ionian islands. I didn't understand that -eoos in the Ionian islands refers to toponyms with a possessive/genitive formation while -eos in Himariote refers to a nominative one. Prof. Cabej describes the same process for the acquisition of Albanian toponyms among Greek-speakers: Albanian genitive case toponyms are acquired as nominative ones. The implication is that if the bearers of the new toponyms had functional knowledge of the language of origin, they wouldn't use the original possessive/genitive formations as nominative ones in their mother tongue.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
]
What you are describing is called reanalysis in linguistics, and it doesn't only involve foreign words, but also words from the same language. Regardless of that, bibliography discusses three possibilities regarding the -έος of Himariote Greek. As explained by Kyriazis (2007) [2006], aside of toponyms, the -έος suffix is also observed in Himariote adjectives and nouns (e.g. πλατέος, κοχλέος 'κοχλίας', etc.); it could have also been used for phytonyms to denote – as adjectives – their abundance in a place, and later evolved into actual toponyms (e.g. ελατέος > Ελατέος 'place with many fir trees'). Take note that most examples that are presented in the Records of the Latin Diocese of Kefalonia (1264) are phytotoponyms. Furthermore, Kyriazis (2018) presents two additional possibilities. Indeed, Himariote toponyms with -έος are in the nominative case, and in the Himariote vernacular are usually used in the accusative case with -έο; e.g. σον Ελατέο. In the text of the Records of the Latin Diocese of Kefalonia (1264), toponyms with -έως are in the genitive case, and Kyriazis suggests that through grammatical reanalysis of such genitive forms (e.g. του Δραλέως), we got the respective accusative forms (e.g. σον Δραλέο), and from them their nominative forms in -έος (e.g. Δραλέος). Lastly, he presents the hypothesis of linguist Christos Tzitzilis, who believes that from plural forms with -έοι, of nouns with -εύς, we got through
Demetrios1993 (talk) 16:17, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply
]

Removal of section head

For obvious reasons the first paragraphs of history section need a title since they do not deal with history in general (as the history section in general which is currently long enough to warrant separate subsections). Any alternative proposals are welcome, but the current title seems ok to me.Alexikoua (talk) 05:17, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Still no proposal, well I assume there is no real argument against that this subsection is about.... history of the native Greek dialect and its contact with Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 03:49, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I assume the unexplained removal of the heading is done by accident. No opposition has yet emerged.Alexikoua (talk) 22:24, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neither the text nor any reference can support something close to this [[11]].Alexikoua (talk) 22:20, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Relationship would be much better than contact. It was not two linguistically distinct communities that had contacts, it was the same people being bilingual. Also rather than simply Albanian, it is Lab Albanian. That said, that part does not focus on the relationship between Greek and Albanian so the title is entirely unnecessary. Çerçok (talk) 00:22, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is that a proposal for 'relationship'? Alexikoua (talk) 04:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If there was a subsection on that topic, yes. Right now there isn't. Çerçok (talk) 06:45, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @
    Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:02, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Btw, the two sources talk about contact between Greeks and Albanians. Whether today's Himariote dielect emerged in contact with Albanian or before such a contact is not clear in the sources.
Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:05, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply
]
Fact is that this subsection doesn't deal with history of the local Greek dialect in general, about is focused on a very specific aspect; contact and co-existence with local Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ktrimi991: it those two sources don't talk about the subject (Himariote dialect) then that's a good reason for removal.Alexikoua (talk) 23:50, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Linguistic boundary of the Himariot dialect

I wonder if there is a reason to remove information about the "linguistic boundary based on toponymity" provided that this offers information about the linguistic boundary of the Himariot dialect.Alexikoua (talk) 17:33, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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