Talk:Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved: consensus appears to be against a move at this time. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 23:17, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: previous discussion at Talk:Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán/Archive 1#Requested move 23 March 2017. Dekimasuよ! 19:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• 'Noted - Thanks, I've looked over that. That discussion was more or less two years ago, not particularly extensive, and also the reason I stated we can discuss alternative proposals. The current title breaks convention, and ideally shouldn't be used.--Tærkast (Discuss) 19:45, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Let's use his real name (as in
  Joaquín Guzmán Loera. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:08, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Suport per
  WP:COMMONNAME Felicia (talk) 20:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose. This current title is widely known and used. There are other Chapos too, so this is just fine. I also oppose a move to "Joaquín Guzmán Loera", since that would pretty much make him unrecognizable to most readers.
  ✉ • ✎) 20:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • Comment - So people are really fine with the current awkward title which breaks conventions? Doesn't seem like people want to compromise either or are willing to offer alternative proposals.--Tærkast (Discuss) 20:31, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A search of Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán on Google returns 17.5 million hits, whereas El Chapo returns 157 million. A Google Book search for Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán returns 5,690 results, whereas El Chapo returns 39,000. Interestingly, the Google Search for just his name Joaquin Guzman returns 217,000 results.--Tærkast (Discuss) 20:35, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• It is not against convention. See
  ✉ • ✎) 20:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Are Google hits the only thing we should go by? Because if yes, you might have a case. But given that fact that Chapo is also a reference to other drug lords (like
  ✉ • ✎) 20:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Except "Weird Al" is different to El Chapo, media sources usually refer to him "also known as El Chapo". More media sources use El Chapo to refer to Guzman than others, it's about the common name.--Tærkast (Discuss) 21:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Show me one media source that only refers to him as El Chapo and gives no mention to "Joaquín" or "Guzmán". I'm asking because I know the media uses "El Chapo" on its headlines because its shorter, but once you read their articles they refer to him by his name too.

✉ • ✎) 21:32, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply

]

• Oppose. This is too frivolous a name. He is actually widely known exactly as Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán. Obviously "El Chapo" will redirect to that title. I also think there's some validity (though obviously not a deciding factor) in seeing how the Spanish-langugage Wikipedia handles it. They don't use "El Chapo" in the article title at all, FWIW. Moncrief (talk) 21:01, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Widely known exactly? Did you look at the search results? In addition, it is interesting to note that many other requested moves usually have people suggesting alternative proposels in the form of "I oppose a move to this title, but support a move to." I doubt that's going to happen here. It would seem that there is a consensus to rather do nothing than move it to a more acceptable title, even if, as there has been, suggestions not to include the nickname at all.--Tærkast (Discuss) 21:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"El Chapo" is Mexican slang for "the short one" or "Shorty," so obviously it's going to get more Google hits, as it's also used in other contexts. I'm talking about his common-name usage in reputable media articles, where he is never referred to simply as "El Chapo" in the way that people like Cher or Madonna are. He is referred to in New York Times articles (for example) by both his given name and nickname, usually simultaneously at first reference. Moncrief (talk) 21:13, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per
  WP:COMMONNAME. This is the English Wikipedia and "El Chapo" is how he is commonly referred to by most English speakers. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:15, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Oppose plain El Chapo, since reliable sources usually include his name too. The current title is ok, and it's not exactly a violation since El Chapo isn't a hypocorism (see articles like
  Joaquín Guzmán if people want the nickname dropped. "Loera" is unnecessary, since second surnames are typically ignored per Spanish customs and it isn't usually used by sources. Nohomersryan (talk) 21:22, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Keeping just "Joaquín Guzmán" would be a terrible idea. Most people wouldn't know who the hell that person is without the nickname. The real question here is if we should keep the title as is or just move to El Chapo. Removing the nickname is out of the question.
  ✉ • ✎) 21:26, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Oppose - His name precedes the nickname. In the past, when the title issue was bought up, the consensus was to blend is name+nickname as it stands today: Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán. Rowan Forest (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I honestly think it is unnecessary, because "
  El Chapo" is already a redirect to Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán, and I have also seen articles with the first name, then nickname in quotation marks, then the last name. From, TheSmartPersonUS1 ^(TSPUS1) (talk) 22:49, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Mild support When I first saw that there was a discussion for moving this page to El Chapo, I initially was completely for the idea. I had never heard him referred to by his full name in, for example, headlines. Usually media will say his full name in the first or second paragraph, but simply use El Chapo in the headline. However, after reading the other arguments here, it does seem a bit too vague. But re-reading
  WP:COMMONNAME, it does seem that El Chapo on its own satisfies the 5 principles (though perhaps not precision fully) much better than the current title. Therefore, I mildly support this idea. MrAureliusR_Talk! 01:50, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Oppose per
  User:MX's comments above. —  AjaxSmack  02:58, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Oppose – "El Chapo" is ambiguous, and it's better to use his name. Dicklyon (talk) 04:45, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Based on several of the comments above, simply "
  El Chapo" would leave too much ambiguity (although it has admittedly redirected to the article in question since January 2017). For the time being "Joaquín Guzmán" or "Joaquín Guzmán Loera" appear not to be as widely known by people who might read the English Wikipedia. –Ntmamgtw (talk) 18:16, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• Oppose If you see other article with nicknames used, but the famous person has their full name and nickname in these " things. 2602:306:8BB9:4E20:F5FC:450A:3813:66B2 (talk) 03:31, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per rationales given by Moncrief and MX. ╠╣uw [talk] 11:15, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: even though "El Chapo" is commonly used, "Joaquín Guzmán" is common as well, and using solely the nickname as title lowers the professional quality of the article, and thus Wikipedia as a whole. Formality should be encouraged. Consensus trumps dogmatic adherence to rules (remember,
  Wikipedia has no firm rules). --Animalparty! (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Comment. What would be wrong with "El Chapo" Guzmán? Same as "Weird Al", and supported by sources. wumbolo ^^^ 22:39, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Wumbolo's suggestion of "El Chapo" Guzmán. COMMON and specific.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:27, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Support per
  El Chapo already redirects here, so the community has already established this El Chapo is the primary topic. --В²C ☎ 21:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]

• So is the current title, Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán, what he is best known by. Please find one source where he is not referred to by his first/last name as well, and only as El Chapo. El Chapo is short, so you'll see it in the headlines. But every source will mention his name. Heck, see the U.S. government's official press release after his conviction: Joaquin 'El Chapo’ Guzman, Sinaloa Cartel Leader, Convicted of Running a Continuing Criminal Enterprise and Other Drug-Related Charges.
  ✉ • ✎) 21:58, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
  ]
  • I don't deny your claim. Just saying "El Chapo" is MORE commonly used to refer to him than is "Joaquín "El Chapo" Guzmán". --В²C ☎ 23:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • So is "The US" over the "United States". Perhaps we should change the name of that article too. Or maybe we can agree that "El Chapo" has more results because it means a lot of other things besides than the man in question.
      ✉ • ✎) 23:16, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply
      ]

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