Talk:La Patilla

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What is the reliability of La Patilla?

• Option 1: Generally reliable
• Option 2: Additional considerations
• Option 3:
  Generally unreliable
• Option 4: Deprecate

WMrapids (talk) 21:55, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is concerning, so this is why an RfC has been placed. Thank you.--WMrapids (talk) 22:10, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:POINT issues regarding the opening of this request at RfC: Wikipedia:WikiProject Venezuela/Reliable and unreliable sources. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]
• Option 1: La Patilla is one of the main digital news outlet in Venezuela. In 2017 it was the seventh most visited website in the country, and some years before, in 2015 it held the fifth position, only behind YouTube, Amazon, Google and Facebook, which can be interpreted as a sign of its trustworthiness as a source. Founded in 2010, it would be the pioneer of the online outlets that would come in the future, such as Efecto Cocuyo, El Pitazo, El Estímulo, and so on. The classification was put in place first for a reason.

While discussing his latest appointment, Alberto Federico Ravell's career, the outlet's director, should be remembered: he served as director of Globovisión, one of the main television channels in the country at the moment, for over 15 years, and before that he was also appointed in the 80s as the director for the state-run television channel Venezolana de Televisión, showing his long trajectory as a journalist. When discussing a possible conflict of interest, the issue at hand is editorial independence. As such, La Patilla has actually covered and published news about scandals related to Guaidó, including the allegations of embezzlement of humanitarian aid:[4][5][6][7] Regarding The New York Times investigation, it should be noted that, at the time, many outlets also originally published the aid as being set on fire by Maduro sources. This is reflect in the own's article introduction: The narrative seemed to fit Venezuela’s authoritarian rule (...) Venezuela’s opposition held up the images of the burning aid, reproduced on dozens of news sites and television screens throughout Latin America, as evidence of Mr. Maduro’s cruelty. It's the reason why the report was so revealing at the time.

Speaking of Breitbart, the examples provided are articles about Venezuela, and in some cases general facts that are not disputed: the first article talks about the currency's devaluation and the second one about demotions and expulsions in the military, both of which are commonplace in Venezuela and not really in dispute. Interestingly, in the case of the first article one of the most salacious statements by Breitbart is removed: "People reduced to eating household pets to survive are generally quite cynical." Both articles also use references deemed reliable by Wikipedia, including Reuters ([8][9]), AFP, Bloomberg, Telegraph and BBC. The third article was retracted by La Patilla, and the fourth one actually quotes World Tribune. All of these three cases are understandable knowing that La Patilla functions mostly as a news aggregator. Likewise, the fact that Breitbart's unreliability is not as known is the Spanish speaking sphere also has to be considered.

News outlets are prone to be just as fallible as humans. We can take Trump's Fake News Awards as an example of this: several reliable sources have been vilified in the past for mistakes, retracted stories or comments made by journalists. With a twelve years history, is only natural that these flaws will be found. However, the "generally" classification in "generally reliable" exists for a reason, and La Patilla is a valuable source for content about Venezuela that in the current landscape is badly needed. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: With you being a member of WikiProject Venezuela, thank you for you quick response.

I will address your statements:

• La Patilla is one of the main digital news outlet in Venezuela.
  • Ok. We understand that this may be one of the main outlets, but there are plenty of prominent outlets that have been determined by consensus as being unreliable or needing additional considerations (see
    WP:NEWSWEEK
    ). Just because it may be one of the main outlets in Venezuela does not mean that it is accurate.
• Alberto Federico Ravell's career, the outlet's director, should be remembered: he served as director of Globovisión, one of the main television channels in the country at the moment, for over 15 years
  • Yes. And Globovision was pretty anti-government.
• Regarding The New York Times investigation ... "images of the burning aid, reproduced on dozens of news sites and television screens throughout Latin America"
  • Ok, but this has nothing to do with reliability. This shows possible yellow journalism through sensational journalism or narrative-building at worse.
• Speaking of Breitbart, the examples provided are articles about Venezuela, and in some cases general facts that are not disputed
  • If this is a main Venezuelan outlet, why would they need to republish Breitbart articles about discussing "general facts" about Venezuela?!?
• the fourth one actually quotes World Tribune
  • Yes, La Patilla republished a little-known "World Tribune" outlet that is citing Breitbart, with the "World Tribune" writing "The Venezuelans who were part of the caravans include those convicted of murder and rape, according to Breitbart Texas, which reviewed the report." So, this could be even worse.
• Likewise, the fact that Breitbart's unreliability is not as known is the Spanish speaking sphere also has to be considered.
  • If La Patilla does not know that Breitbart is unreliable, why should we think it's reliable? Few Spanish-language outlets are republishing Breitbart articles...
• With a twelve years history, is only natural that these flaws will be found.
  • Of course, but they continue to make the same mistakes, like a Venezuelan outlet citing Breitbart for "general facts" about their own country.
• La Patilla is a valuable source for content about Venezuela that in the current landscape is badly needed
  • Media pluralism is important, yes, but it does not mean that we should find one side (opposition media) reliable while labeling the other side (the government) unreliable in a way that
    WP:VENRS
    does.

Overall, the whole concept of

WP:VENRS, though with good intentions, seems concerning. WMrapids (talk) 06:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

The "main digital news outlet in Venezuela" red herring

As said above, La Patilla may be the "main digital news outlet in Venezuela", but that does not make it accurate. After doing research on the media in Venezuela, I discovered a great publication by the Andrés Bello Catholic University discussing disinformation, titled "Conversaciones sobre la desinformación: Tiempos de pandemia por la COVID-19" ("Conversations about disinformation: Times of pandemic by COVID-19"). While discussing disinformation in Venezuela, the authors state on p33 "La Patilla (lapatilla.com), that is, it is one of the main information references, mainly used by the opposition segment. This online medium, whose base and operation are outside of Venezuela, also has a particularity: its owner and editor is also the head of the political communication center of the government of Juan Guaidó, so that the news coverage also tends to have a clear political bias" while later on p36-38, they say "[Online platforms] can also become quite biased. Many times La Patilla accompanies the complaint with a clear political bias. This situation is different in much lesser-known online media, or with less traffic, such as El Pitazo or Efecto Cocuyo, which have much less reach than La Patilla, but have a much more rigorous treatment of the news". In other words, while La Patilla may be the "main digital news outlet in Venezuela", it is not recognized as being as reliable as other Venezuelan online outlets like El Pitazo or Efecto Cocuyo. Why should Wikipedia use La Patilla as a source when it packages partisan news, parrots unreliable outlets and is not recognized as being as reliable as smaller media ventures in Venezuela? WMrapids (talk) 05:06, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 3: After some research, our
  generally reliable source BBC News has provided some important help. In a recent article from April 2023, BBC lists prominent independent media outlets in Venezuela
  , stating "Key independent media include Radio Fe y Alegría, Efecto Cocuyo, Unión Radio, El Estímulo, El Pitazo and El Diario", though La Patilla is missing (funny enough, La Patilla is placed all the way at the bottom of the article as a "news website"). So the argument that La Patilla is a "key" pillar of Venezuelan media is lacking here.

BBC would also write in 2019 about La Patilla: "La Patilla ... churns out a barrage of pro-opposition and anti-government news items. It has a penchant for dramatic headlines, such as "Venezuela in its third day of paralysis and anguish due to the red blackout, with no solution in sight", published on 27 March." BBC describes La Patilla, comparatively, as "rabidly anti-government". This information, in addition to La Patilla republishing content from questionable entities, such as Breitbart and obscure websites, shows that the website solely exists for political reasons and its main purpose is not to provide reliable information to readers.--WMrapids (talk) 07:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A quick search easily proves my point. The figures that I gave are from its former Alexa's ranking, currently unavailable but quoted by other references. Both the Committee to Protect Journalists and VESinFiltro have referred to La Patilla as the most visited news portal in Venezuela.

I should also point out to the mentions of La Patilla as an independent news outlet:

• "Rights experts 'deeply disturbed' at erosion of media freedom in Venezuela – UN human rights office". UN News. 2016-08-04. - We are deeply disturbed by the recent reports of attacks against journalists and independent media groups, escalating the pressure over the Venezuelan media, Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, whose report includes a order against La Patilla to not publish videos
• Jerreat, Jessica (2019-06-07). "Venezuela's Supreme Court orders La Patilla to pay US$5m in damages to Cabello". Committee to Protect Journalists. Retrieved 2023-06-06. - The Committee to Protect Journalists today condemned a decision by the Venezuelan Supreme Court, which according to news reports ordered the independent news site La Patilla to pay US$5 million damages to a former vice-president as part of a civil defamation lawsuit.
• "Press Release —Venezuela: HRF Condemns $365 Million Lawsuit Against Independent Media". Human Rights Foundation. 2015-08-19. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And

WP:BREITBART are also independent media organizations. So, can you explain to me how popularity and independence relate to reliability? WMrapids (talk) 13:44, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

The very concept of reliability for Wikipedia is independence: Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, per

WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS), providing repeated instances of factual errors, and perhaps I'll concede that the analogy holds water. --NoonIcarus (talk) 16:54, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

Looking at the dates of two articles you cited (2015 and 2016), their statements were prior to the use of Breitbart (among other questionable sources) and before La Patilla's head worked directly for Guaidó. Also, the Human Rights Foundation that you cite is led by Thor Halvorssen (human rights activist), the cousin of opposition leader Leopoldo López. WMrapids (talk) 07:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Breitbart, Epoch Times and RT connection
Well you asked for it. Here is a list of La Patilla articles publishing material from

1. Pence: Honduran President informed me that the migrant caravan is financed by Venezuela to "challenge our sovereignty" (By: Breitbart - October 2018)
2. Maduro's regime empties prisons and sends violent criminals to the US border (By Breitbart - September 2022)
3. More than 700 Venezuelans crossed the border from Mexico to Texas in the last seven days (By: Breitbart - April 2021)
4. Report: Venezuela’s worst and darkest head North for destinations like Martha’s Vineyard (By: World Tribune, citing Breitbart - September 2022)
5. A huge U.S. hydroelectric plant closes due to the drought (Using images provided by Breitbart - August 2021)
6. Venezuela occupies the last place in the 2015 Rule of Law Index (By: Breitbart - June 2015)
7. Dignity! PSUV threatened to starve those who did not vote and still abstained 80% (Survey) (By: Breitbart - December 2020)
8. Gloomy Christmas in Venezuela, families go hungry (By: Breitbart - December 2018)
9. The governor of South Dakota defends the "unconventional" decision to keep the state open (By: New York Post, citing Breitbart - April 2020)
10. North Korea expresses its firm support and solidarity with the Maduro regime (By: Breitbart - March 2018)
11. The president of Warner Bros leaves office due to a relationship with a young actress (Using images provided by Breitbart - March 2019)
12. At least 21 million mobile phone accounts disappeared in China in three months of the pandemic (By: Breitbart - March 2020)
13. Donald Trump gains ground against Joe Biden in a new national poll (By Inquisitr, citing Breitbart - July 2020)

It seems that La Patilla is parroting the

1. Lavrov's plugs were blown up at the UN: "Zelenski is our son of a bitch." (By: RT News - September 2022)
2. Russia published a video of the British destroyer who violated the Russian border in the Black Sea (By: RT News - June 2021)
3. Putin warns the West that he will "regret" any provocation against Russia (By: RT News - April 2021)
4. Russia expects to register the world's first vaccine against Covid-19 within 10 days (By: RT News - 2020)
5. The test launch of the American Minuteman III intercontinental ballistic missile fails (By: RT News - May 2021)
6. Putin announces the creation of a new control center for nuclear forces in Russia (By: RT News - November 2020)
7. A German scientist proposes a new version of the origin of the coronavirus (By RT News - November 2020)
8. Joe Biden on his life in the White House: "It looks like a golden cage" (By: RT News - February 2021)
9. Putin boasts of a military muscle in the midst of the conflict between Russia and Ukraine (By: RT News - 2022)
10. Two children mistakenly receive Covid-19 vaccines instead of flu vaccines in the US (By: RT News - October 2021)
11. Pompeo accuses Biden of sacrificing US leadership in the world (By: RT News - October 2021)
12. VIDEO: Fire in Syria caused by an attack on a gas pipeline (By: RT News - February 2021)
13. That's how realistic this news presenter created by artificial intelligence in South Korea is (VIDEO) (By: RT News - November 2020)
14. Russia plans to test a prototype of the "digital ruble" in 2022 (By: RT News - November 2021)
15. What happens when a media tries to tell only good news? (By: RT News - 2014)
16. Actor of 'Friends' sets date and place for the filming of the special reunion of the series (By: RT News - 2021)
17. A US couple mistakenly receives $50 billion in their bank account (By: RT News - 2021)
18. Vaccinated with Sputnik V maintain high levels of antibodies a year later, according to a study (By: RT News - 2022)
19. Canada puts the wrong symbol on its banknotes (By: RT News - January 2013)
20. Russia says that a new meeting between Putin and Biden in the rest of the year is "quite real" (By: RT News- October 2021)
21. The longest-lived in the world: Woman from India became a mother for the first time at the age of 70 (By: RT news - 2021)
22. Actor Alec Baldwin deletes his Twitter account after his first interview since the 'Rust' accident (By: RT News - 2021)
23. They warn that Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania will not publish their election results tonight (By: RT News - November 2020)
24. Facebook's shares rose after announcing its name change (By: RT News - 2021)
25. Two people die in a knife attack in a church in California (By: RT News - 2020)

So La Patilla also republishes

Lets not forget

1. This is the documentary censored on social networks that denounced that the coronavirus had leaked from a laboratory in Wuhan (Republished video about lab leak theory from The Epoch Times)
2. Scientists assure that the soul can leave the body and see what happens around it (Video) (By: RT News, citing The Epoch Times, a 2 for 1! - December 2014)
3. Joshua Philipp: Orwell explains how socialists manipulate language to change history (By: The Epoch Times - August 2020)
4. Mark Hendrickson: Marxism in the United States, the culmination of a decades-long movement - (By: The Epoch Times - August 2021)
5. Ching Cheong: The first communist-style elections are about to be held in Hong Kong (By: The Epoch Times - December 2021)
6. In VIDEO: Trump criticized the release of the narco-nephews and Biden's policies with Maduro (By: The Epoch Times - 2022)
7. When could the world be free of coronavirus? What some experts say (By: FayerWayer?, citing The Epoch Times - February 2021)
8. They affirm that American companies are empowering the Chinese Communist Party (By: The Epoch Times - January 2022)
9. Some Afghans have been allowed to enter the United States without a visa, says a Security Department official (By The Epoch Times - August 2021)
10. John Mac Ghlionn: The influential Westerners who help the Chinese regime (By: The Epoch Times - 2021)
11. Faith and freedom: How a Shen Yun dancer escaped from China (By: The Epoch Times - July 2021)
12. Governor of Florida criticized Joe Biden for authorizing flights to Cuba (By: The Epoch Times - July 202)
13. This US airline will fire 593 workers who refused to get vaccinated against Covid-19 (By: The Epoch Times - September 2021)
14. Republican Mitch McConnell warns of the return to confinement in the United States if people do not get vaccinated against Covid-19 (By: The Epoch Times - July 2021)
15. Trump seals his "biggest and most complex agreement," according to oil expert (By: The Epoch Times - 2020)
16. The accident of China's most modern military helicopter caused 11 deaths (By: The Epoch Times - 2019)
17. Wang Youqun: Why did I give up my membership in the Chinese Communist Party? (By: The Epoch Times - May 2021)
18. Texas Governor declares disaster on the southern border with Mexico in response to the humanitarian crisis (By: The Epoch Times - June 2021)
19. US Marines will expel those who reject the Covid-19 vaccine (By: The Epoch Times - October 2021)
20. Chinese cities issue more blockades and cancel public events due to Covid-19 outbreaks (By: The Epoch Times - 2021)

Then there's PanAm Post:

1. Iran's revenge on the United States after Soleimani's death could come through Venezuela (By: The PanAm Post - January 2020)
2. Fear of a more massive exodus stops the tightening of sanctions against Maduro (By: The PanAm Post - March 2018)
3. José I. Hernández: "By January 10, a new president must be appointed in Venezuela" (interview) (By: The PanAm Post - December 2018)
4. More than a hundred Venezuelan personalities thank the United States and other countries that recognize Guaidó (manifesto) (By: The PanAm Post - February 2019)
5. Diego Arria: Neither China nor Russia will intervene for Venezuela (By: The PanAm Post - September 2018)
6. Almagro says it would be a mistake to include Moreno and Padrino in a democratic transition (By: The PanAm Post - 2019)
7. The new owner of PanAm Post speaks (+ Communiqué) (By: The PanAm Post - August 2020)
8. PanAm Post: A State Department spokesman pressured us for an article about Abrams (By: The PanAm Post - April 2019)
9. President of the TSJ in exile: It's time for the brave (By: The PanAm Post - September 2018)

Here's another helping,

1. Map of the world's financial weaknesses (By: Zero Hedge - 2019)
2. Venezuelan teenagers escape socialism by selling their body, hair and breast milk (By: Zero Hedge - December 2018)
3. Venezuela liquidates its gold reserves to pay off external financial debt (By: Zero Hedge - 2016)
4. Will Geopolitical Pressure Push Biden To Lift Sanctions On Venezuela? (By International Business Times - May 2023)
5. Venezuela’s Economic Needs May Push Opposition To Support Maduro’s Debt Restructuring Plans (By: International Business Times - April 2023)
6. Scandal in the United States: Former "Democratic" candidate was captured trying to have sex with a minor (VIDEO) (By: The Gateway Pundit - 2020)

As you can see, the republishing of information from unreliable sources has been present in La Patilla's "reporting" nearly since its inception. This includes Russian propaganda, anti-China propaganda, controversial COVID-19 stories (pushing the

• B1, B9, B10, R1, R2, R3, R4, R5, R6, R8, R10, R11, R14, R18, R20, R23, E6, E9, E12, E14, E18, E19, P6, P7, P8 are statements by foreign authorities or entities. These include declarations covered in dozens of other international outlets and can easily be contrasted, and when this is not the case,
  WP:ABOUTSELF
  applies. This is particularly the case with Russia Today, which offers the declarations and positions by Russia, with the benefit of having an independent publisher as the middleman.
• B5, B11, R10, R13, R14, R15, R17, R19, R21, R22, R24, R25, E15, E16, P2, O1, O3 are updates about world and local news. They cite both international and local outlets that are not among the deprecated sources listed. Notably, many of them are trivia: "A US couple mistakenly receives $50 billion in their bank account", "The longest-lived in the world: Woman from India became a mother for the first time at the age of 70", "Canada puts the wrong symbol on its banknotes". Not really the kind stuff you'd be worried to be material for conspiracy theories or fabrications. E15, O1, O3 and P2 look more like analysis articles, and in the case of the first one its original source is not the Epoch Times.
• B2, B6, B8, P4, O2, O3 are updates about the crisis in Venezuela. Once again, they usually cite international reliable outlets, such as EFE and AFP.
• E3, E4, E5, E10 and E17 are opinion articles and clearly labeled as such.
• E11, P3, P5 and P9 are interviews. From what I understand,
  WP:ABOUTSELF
  applies, but they're primary sources and can be evaluated on their own merits, including their use with attribution if needed.
• B7 and B13 are just citing pollsters.
• It should be noted that B5 and B11, besides citing sources different from Breitbart, have ass tthe only text match for Breitbart in the article as the source of the images. I can go on to make a comparison with Ruptly and discuss the use of media with free licenses, but it should be very clear that is totally unrelated to the content.

All in all, this list summarizes non-controversial world events that are covered by reliable sources, are picked up likewise by questionable sources, and includes the latter versions published by La Patilla. Despite this, it is only but a small sample of the thousands of articles that La Patilla has published, and listing only mentions highlights that the reliability of La Patilla is not really being put into question, compared to the discussions where the mentioned references were deprecated.

After all of this digging, if this is the closest one can get to showing La Patilla's unreliability, it really shows that the problematic content only happens with a minority of cases, different from the definition of

• "This is particularly the case with Russia Today, which offers the declarations and positions by Russia, with the benefit of having an independent publisher as the middleman."
  • If they were to be a "middleman" they wouldn't broadly repost articles by
    WP:GUNREL
    sources. They would create their own stories and attribute properly (we do a better job with that ourselves). So, again, La Patilla is being lazy or republishing articles that follow their partisanship.
• "updates about world and local news. ... Notably, many of them are trivia"
  • Why would they use such controversial sources for "world and local news" if they had many other reputable outlets to pick from? Again, this is laziness.
• "are opinion articles and clearly labeled as such"
  • Why is La Patilla parroting Epoch Times opinion articles?!?!?
• E11, P3, P5 and P9 are interviews. From what I understand, WP:ABOUTSELF applies, but they're primary sources and can be evaluated on their own merits, including their use with attribution if needed.
  • Why does La Patilla need to have a close relationship with PanAm Post and republish their progress?
• "B7 and B13 are just citing pollsters."
  • Again, they can use any other source to cite pollsters. Heck, if they had an editorial backbone present, they could even report it themselves.

You are clearly minimizing the editorial laziness of La Patilla. You say "it is only but a small sample of the thousands of articles that La Patilla has published", but we shouldn't even have a sample like this to begin with. The "thousands of articles" only proves the point that La Patilla is quantity over quality at best and pushing an agenda at worse, especially with those Epoch Times opinion articles and promoting the

lab leak theory... WMrapids (talk) 01:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

"Laziness" is not the same as unreliability, which is the subject of the discussion here. The content in these articles come originally from, taking Breitbart and the US as an example, outlets such as The Washington Post, the American Bar Association, Hollywood Reporter and The Hill, so strictly speaking about reliability if doesn't matter that Breitbart or unreliable sources are only mentioned, even if we can all agree that it is not optimal. Arguably the most problematic story was the one about the Venezuelan migrants, which has been retracted at least once.

A quick browse through the discussion that deprecated Breitbart reminds us of the reasons for the decision: fake news about George Soros, the US Democratic Party, Planned Parenthood, climate change denial, transphobia, and so on, to name a few ([10]). None of this is near to be seen among La Patilla's news. Instead, the articles listed include how Friends cast would reencounter or how Alec Baldwin deleted his Twitter account as examples of the concerning content.

For a source to be deemed generally unreliable, it must be shown that this is the case with most of its content, which is not the case, as it happens with other sources. For instance, La Patilla is originally citing Infobae as the publisher of The Epoch Times' documentary, one of the main newspapers in Argentina. Just because Infobae has published this documentary (and again, while agreeing on The Epoch Times' unreliability) doesn't mean that we will dismiss its reliability entirely and as whole.

I should also point out to

WP:RSOPINION, regarding the opinion articles, as well as interviews. Last but not least, I'll comment that having thousands of articles for an outlet that publishes news daily is just normal, just like if it was Vice, Reuters or The New York Times, even if they were founded earlier. --NoonIcarus (talk) 12:11, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply

]

• "'Laziness' is not the same as unreliability, which is the subject of the discussion here."
  • If they are lazy with the material they decide to reproduce, which includes content for sources desginated unreliable and deprecated by Wikipedia consensus, then it is obviously related to La Patilla's reliability.
• "I should also point out to WP:RSOPINION, regarding the opinion articles, as well as interviews."
  • Why else would La Patilla publish
    WP:EPOCHTIMES opinion pieces unless it was targeted towards their audience? Why is La Patilla disseminating Rudy Giuliani opinion pieces about the "CCP virus" from the Epoch Times? Why is La Patilla disseminating opinion pieces from the Epoch Times defending the conspiracy allegations of Sidney Powell? Why would La Patilla, a Venezuelan outlet, disseminate the Epoch Times article "Thanksgiving was the triumph of capitalism over collectivism" that states that for the Pilgrims, "Their objective was the communism", something that historians told The New York Times was "wildly inaccurate"
    ? Someone at La Patilla has to be looking at the metrics and saying "Yeah, these Epoch Times pieces are bringing in some readers". What other justification is there? This is a clearly very biased site that has poor editorial oversight.

WMrapids (talk) 04:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 2: Additional considerations (summoned by bot). Based on the helpful discussion here, there seems to be ample reason to be wary of using La Patilla as a source. In most cases for which it is an adequate source there is likely to be a better one. (To clarify the issues and stakes here, it might be helpful to have some examples of situations where La Patilla is the best available source and is claimed to be reliable.) -- Visviva (talk) 15:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS
  ?

Something like this:

Perennial sources

Source	Status (legend)	Discussions			Uses
		List	Last	Summary
La Patilla (news excluding politics and science)	No consensus	(insert RfC)	(insert RfC)	La Patilla may be reliable for news coverage on topics other than politics and science, though in-text attribution should be used for opinions.	(insert uses)
La Patilla (politics and science)	Generally unreliable	(insert RfC)	(insert RfC)	There is consensus La Patilla is generally unreliable for the reporting of politics and science. Sources say the site has a clear pro-Venezuelan opposition bias and its leadership was allied with in-text attribution for opinions.	(insert uses)

This is just an example of a proposed option and the wording can be modified.--WMrapids (talk) 05:42, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That would make a lot of sense to me. But FWIW I don't really have an objection to option 3 either. I went with the more cautious choice mostly just out of concern that there might be some valuable use of this source that hasn't come to light given the limited participation in this particular discussion. -- Visviva (talk) 18:24, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I could have sworn that I left this some weeks back, but anyways: unlike an article, where the published content can be gradually reworded between participants, the outcome of an RfC is made up by the arguments provided by a majority of the community. Suggesting a description for the source before the RfC has been closed is choosing an description before the community has made up its mind about it. --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:53, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Option 3: La Patilla acts as a propaganda outfit against the Venezuelan government and its extreme bias means we can't rely on it to provide accurate reporting. WMrapids has provided extensive documentation of its many editorial failings. Burrobert (talk) 09:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• WP:RS concerns.--WMrapids (talk) 07:35, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  I'll be honest: this seems like a huge mess that I don't feel like getting into. I won't comment here, or further down the track in later discussions unless I am asked a question that I am needed to answer. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 07:37, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @JML1148: I appreciate the honest reply. Thank you for your previous help! WMrapids (talk) 07:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  This RfC is a mess, that has to be said upfront. These reliability RfCs operate largely on users who have experience with a source giving their opinion, and an overall opinion being decided from the comments. A lot of the excessive links both above and below is fairly unnecessary and out of scope; I suppose it provides background (though partisan...) for users who are unfamiliar with the source, but they shouldn't really be !voting - a big issue with sources in this area, I hope you'll appreciate. Basically, if you could improve your RfC behaviour, that would do everyone good.

  Anyway, I find that La Patilla was generally reliable before 2019. If their editorial practices have changed, there should be a delineation in time period. If there are issues with how they cover the United States, this can also be noted. A partisan political stance does not automatically make them unreliable; we can certainly discuss if a stance or connections have led to misinformation. If they repost articles from other sources, those articles should be considered as coming from the other source and assessed for reliability per the other source. I do not think their headlines are particularly more scandalous than other decent sources, I do not think it is worth noting to take caution with headlines. Kingsif (talk) 09:01, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "These reliability RfCs operate largely on users who have experience with a source giving their opinion"
    • A user familiar with the source casually mentioned that it republished Breitbart articles
  • "A lot of the excessive links both above and below is fairly unnecessary and out of scope"
    • Unfortunately, a user downplayed the usage of Breitbart and other questionable material by La Patilla, so some examples were provided.
  • "A partisan political stance does not automatically make them unreliable"
    • Of course, but repackaging material from deprecated and blacklisted outlets does. Their extreme bias does also open questions about reliability. For instance, the entry for
      WP:RSP
      stated "Editors also note the highly opinionated nature of the site as evidence against its reliability".
  • "If they repost articles from other sources, those articles should be considered as coming from the other source and assessed for reliability per the other source"
    • Why do we have
      WP:RS
      in the first place? So Wikipedia doesn't "repost" poorly sourced information! If La Patilla is reposting poorly sourced information, then it is unreliable.

  WMrapids (talk) 17:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Bad RfC. This is an article talk page, which is supposed to be used for making changes to the article. If we want to have community discussion of the reliability of a website as a source for facts on Wikipedia, the proper venue is
  WP:CONLEVEL issues because it is here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:50, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

  @

  WP:RFCOPEN, it said “Open a new section at the bottom of the talk page of the article or project page that you are interested in”, so that’s why it was placed here, so apologies. Should I close this RfC and open a separate one? WMrapids (talk) 20:13, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply

  ]