Talk:Len Lawson

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Plagiarism

Both sources are from 2003 and 2007; this article was written on 28 March 2010 by User:Maias. For reference, Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches and Wikipedia:Plagiarism describes what plagiarism is and why slight changes to words and shifts of sentence positioning would still constitute plagiarism.

At its peak, his comic was selling more than 70,000 copies. As with Captain Atom devotees, his many fans could show their loyalty by joining the Junior Lone Avenger Club.
Len Lawson was one of Australia's most talented comic-book artists, and easily the most disturbed. In 1954 he was found guilty of rape and sentenced to death, but this was reduced to 14 years' imprisonment. His request to continue drawing comics from prison to support his family was denied, and the Lone Avenger's adventures were passed on to another artist, Len Such.

In 1954, at the age of 26, he took five June Dally-Watkins photographic models into the Terrey Hills bush in north Sydney and, at gunpoint, raped two and sexually assaulted the others.
He was condemned to death, but his sentence was commuted to 14 years' jail and he was released after serving only half the term.
On November 7, 1962, while painting a portrait of 16-year-old Manly girl, Jane Bower, in his flat at Collaroy, Lawson bound her arms, sexually assaulted her and stabbed her to death. The next day, he burst into the chapel of the Sydney Church of England Girls' Grammar School at Moss Vale, taking schoolgirls hostage.

On November 7, 1962, while painting a portrait of 16-year-old Manly girl, Jane Bower, in his flat at Collaroy, Lawson bound her arms, sexually assaulted her and stabbed her to death. The next day, he burst into the chapel of the Sydney Church of England Girls' Grammar School at Moss Vale, taking schoolgirls hostage.
(A few weeks earlier he had dined with the SCEGGS pupils and staff as an honoured "author", after convincing the headmistress he was researching a novel set in a girls' school.)
In the siege, a struggle ensued and his gun discharged, killing 15-year-old Wendy Sue Luscombe, who was sitting in the pews.
Lawson was sentenced to life imprisonment.
On December 15, 1972, a group of dancers arrived at Parramatta jail to give a concert for the inmates.
Lawson, on privileges, was in the audience. At the end of the performance, he whipped out a knife and jumped to the stage, holding the blade to the throat of dancer Sharon Hamilton in what prison warders believe was an escape attempt.

At its peak the Lone Avenger was selling more than 70,000 copies.[2] Young fans could demonstrate their loyalty to the character by joining the Junior Lone Avenger Club, members of which were enjoined to “worship God, venerate the Queen, honour our parents, be polite to adults, respect people of all creeds, be kind to animals, do three good deeds a day, study hard, play healthy outdoor sports and obey the law”.[3] Many years later Lawson claimed that, at the age of 25, he had been drawing Australia’s biggest-selling comic and was the best-paid black-and-white artist in the country.[3]
In 1954, Lawson raped or sexually assaulted a group of five photographic models in bushland in northern Sydney. Although he was convicted of rape and condemned to death, his sentence was commuted to 14 years' imprisonment and he was released in 1961 after serving only half that term.[4] While in prison, his request to continue drawing his comics from his cell to support his family had been rejected, and the Lone Avenger's adventures were continued by the artist Len Such. However, Lawson’s conviction had damaged the brand; the Lone Avenger was banned in the state of Queensland and eventually ended his run in 1959.

On 7 November 1962, while painting a portrait of 16-year-old Jane Bower in his flat at Collaroy, Lawson bound her arms, sexually assaulted her and stabbed her to death. The following day he carried a gun into the chapel of the Sydney Church of England Girls Grammar School at Moss Vale, taking some of the schoolgirls hostage and demanding that Miss Australia and an Olympic athlete known as the “Golden Girl” be brought to him.[3] In the ensuing siege, his gun discharged during a struggle, killing 15-year-old Wendy Sue Luscombe. Lawson was subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment.[4]
On 15 December 1972, a group of dancers visited Parramatta Gaol to do a show for the inmates, with Lawson in the audience. At the end of the performance, he jumped on the stage, holding a knife to the throat of dancer Sharon Hamilton in an apparent escape attempt.[4]

The paraphrasings are evidently too close to the sources. Jappalang (talk) 21:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't personally see any huge problems here, based on what's listed above. Dry recitation of fact and chronological ordering of events are generally not subject to copyright, nor a huge plagiarism concern. Two concerns I have are "At it's peak..." and "...a group of dancers visited Parramatta Gaol to do a show for the inmates...". Copying sentence structure (such as ordering of subjunctive whatcha-ma-bob's, active vs. passive sense, etc.) is more of a concern. If these were reworded along the lines of "The Lone Avenger sold over 70,000 copies per issue at the peak of its' popularity" (except the apostrophe, no idea if it should be there :) and "...Lawson jumped on stage at the end of a show put on by an outside group of dancers..." I would be fine with this. Franamax (talk) 00:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've blanked it because I felt like it used too much of the language of the original. For instance, the article says:

At its peak the Lone Avenger was selling more than 70,000 copies. Young fans could demonstrate their loyalty to the character by joining the Junior Lone Avenger Club.... his request to continue drawing his comics from his cell to support his family had been rejected, and the Lone Avenger's adventures were continued by the artist Len Such.

The source says:

At its peak, his comic was selling more than 70,000 copies. ...His many fans could show their loyalty by joining the Junior Lone Avenger Club.... His request to continue drawing comics from prison to support his family was denied, and the Lone Avenger's adventures were passed on to another artist, Len Such.

Structurally, this is all very similar, and I don't constructions such as fans demonstrating/showing loyalty by joining would constitute a dry recitation of facts. There are many other ways to say this.
The article says:

In 1954, at the age of 26, Lawson took five June Dally-Watkins photographic models into the bushland in Terrey Hills, northern Sydney and, at gunpoint, raped two and sexually assaulted the others. Although he was...condemned to death, his sentence was commuted to 14 years' imprisonment and he was released...after serving only half that term. On 7 November 1962, while painting a portrait of 16-year-old Jane Bower in his flat at Collaroy, Lawson bound her arms, sexually assaulted her and stabbed her to death.... In the ensuing siege, his gun discharged during a struggle, killing 15-year-old Wendy Sue Luscombe. Lawson was subsequently sentenced to life imprisonment. On 15 December 1972, a group of dancers visited Parramatta Gaol to do a show for the inmates, with Lawson in the audience. At the end of the performance, he jumped on the stage, holding a knife to the throat of dancer Sharon Hamilton in an apparent escape attempt.

The source says:

In 1954, at the age of 26, he took five June Dally-Watkins photographic models into the Terrey Hills bush in north Sydney and, at gunpoint, raped two and sexually assaulted the others. He was condemned to death, but his sentence was commuted to 14 years' jail and he was released after serving only half the term. On November 7, 1962, while painting a portrait of 16-year-old Manly girl, Jane Bower, in his flat at Collaroy, Lawson bound her arms, sexually assaulted her and stabbed her to death.... In the siege, a struggle ensued and his gun discharged, killing 15-year-old Wendy Sue Luscombe, who was sitting in the pews. Lawson was sentenced to life imprisonment. On December 15, 1972, a group of dancers arrived at Parramatta jail to give a concert for the inmates. Lawson, on privileges, was in the audience. At the end of the performance, he whipped out a knife and jumped to the stage, holding the blade to the throat of dancer Sharon Hamilton in what prison warders believe was an escape attempt.

The first part of this follows very closely in sentence structure. The "In the siege" sentence of this run is reorganized, but the language is nearly identical. The remainder also follows closely, although there is more restructuring.
We may need to get another opinion, but I believe that this paraphrase is close enough in language and structure to require a fairly substantial rewrite. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 00:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While it's true that facts are not copyrightable, the specific selection and ordering of the facts is - examples like copying the complete sentence "In 1954, at the age of 26, he took five June Dally-Watkins photographic models into the Terrey Hills bush in north Sydney and, at gunpoint, raped two and sexually assaulted the others" are definitely not okay. Questions I would raise would be: why is the year and age of the killer, and the affiliation and scene of the crime, and the use of the gun, necessarily more important than many other facts about the incident, such as his business relationship with the models, his justification for taking them to the scene, which of the girls were raped and which were assaulted, and so on? Even with the same set of facts, there are many ways of rewording this sentence. I can be pretty strict about close paraphrasing, but complex prose sentences are rarely ever interpretable as a "simple list of facts" - the whole things needs to be rewritten based on a melding of multiple relevant sources. Dcoetzee 01:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Copyright problem removed

One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see

guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. MLauba (Talk) 11:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply
]

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