Talk:List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine

This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

International relations Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Lists Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: European This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion not met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met Associated task forces: /  European military history task force Ukraine Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ukraine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ukraine on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.UkraineWikipedia:WikiProject UkraineTemplate:WikiProject UkraineUkraine articles Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Daily pageviews of this article A graph should have been displayed here but graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at pageviews.wmcloud.org

To be added:

• Battle of Konotop, April 1659
• Sack of Baturyn, November 1708
• Liquidation of the Zaporozhian Sich, May 1775
• May 1920 Soviet counteroffensive by the Southwestern Front (RSFSR)/Southern Front
• Soviet invasion of Poland, September 1939, in eastern Galicia
• Occupation of Strilkove, Kherson oblast, March 15 2014
• The major mechanized operations by several battalion tactical groups of the Russian Armed Forces between July 2014 to February 2015, especially the Battle of Ilovaisk, 2014 Russian cross-border shelling of Ukraine, and Battle of Debaltseve, can be conceived as a distinct invasion, in contrast to the more covert infiltration by special forces and mercenaries in April 2014.

 —Michael Z. 17:56, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mzajac: Thanks for this, and sorry for taking so long to look into adding these. A major concern I had putting this list together was avoiding any original research as to what counts as an invasion and as to what counts as to Ukraine. I've added Konotop, finding that Subtelny calls that an invasion, but I can't find similar cites for Baturyn or the liquidation of the Zaporizhian Sich, other than this one paper for Baturyn that uses the word in passing. Subtelny calls both simply attacks. I'm off to bed right now, and hope to look further at the rest of your list tomorrow, but wanted to at least address the three items that predate the 1918 invasion. Do you have any sources available referring to Baturyn and the liquidation as invasions? It's certainly a reasonable characterization, but I'd just like to make sure we're not stating anything that other tertiary sources wouldn't be comfortable stating. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 08:02, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, got to the more recent ones too. Composite diff. To summarize:

• Konotop  Added
• Baturyn ? See above
• Liquidation ? See above
• Southwestern Front ? It seems this is an extension of the 1919 invasion? Might be worth mentioning in that entry, though. Or am I misunderstanding?
• Soviet invasion of Poland  Added
• Strilkove  Mentioned in Crimea entry
• Ilovaisk and Debaltseve  Mentioned in Donbas entry
• Cross-border shelling  Object to adding, as a cross-border shelling is by definition not an invasion.

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 00:06, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking this on.

Why do we need reliable sources for each of these names?

WP:DISAMBIG tells us “disambiguation is required whenever, for a given word or phrase on which a reader might search, there is more than one existing Wikipedia article to which that word or phrase might be expected to lead.” Certainly every foreign military incursion fits the dictionary definition of invasion, and a reader could search for it by that name. Most of the subjects listed are not formal names or titles, but descriptive phrases that have many synonyms. —Michael Z. 14:10, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@

List of fruits, does not require an inline citation, and thus by extension other material does need citations. The citations for the entries containing the word "invasion" and for the Hungaro-Ukrainian War probably aren't necessary—I only included them to forestall disputes given the divisive nature of this content area—but I think citations are needed for all other entries on the list and for the four at issue above. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 22:31, 1 April 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

My dictionary literally defines incursion as “invasion or attack, especially a sudden or brief one.” Perhaps I’ll start a separate Invasion of Ukraine (disambiguation) with a comprehensive list of articles that a reader might search for. —Michael Z. 14:20, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@

inline citations for each item.

Well, this definitely is a case where membership criteria are likely to be disputed, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. And like I said, I think the common-sense clause would only apply here to something with "invasion" or "occupation" in the name. If it's such a straightforward application of a dictionary definition, then there should be reliable sources calling Baturyn and the other events invasions. Maybe there are such sources! I really don't know. I've checked Subtelny and Magosci (1996 ed., latest available on the Internet Archive) and neither seem to characterize these events that way, but maybe other historians do. That's why I'm asking you if you have any reliable sources at hand characterizing any of the four events in question as invasions or occupations. If you do, then I certainly don't object to your adding them to the list. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 18:14, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I’m going to invoke

WP:common sense here. When a hostile foreign military enters Ukraine and conducts a military action, like the sack of a capital, that is an invasion. Let’s set the inclusion criteria to “instances of foreign military actions against Ukraine in Ukrainian territory,” and not “list of things literally called ‘invasion of Ukraine’ in reliable sources and absolutely nothing else.” If it helps, we can rename this List of foreign military invasions, conquests, captures, seizures, annexations, takeovers, overruns, attacks, offensives, raids, assaults, onslaughts, forays, sorties and sacks in Ukraine, but maybe it’s not necessary to be so literal. I think it makes sense to put all of those things in one list with a simple title, and not start multiple POV forks over the use and meaning of the word invasion. If you still object, we can call an RFC and get a few more opinions. —Michael Z. 23:02, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

@Mzajac: Lists' memberships need to be defined by reliable sources. There's no way around that. Common sense only applies when something actually is common sense. Referring to every foreign incursion into Ukraine as an invasion is not common sense, no more than it would be, as I said earlier, to call the bin Laden raid a U.S. invasion of Pakistan or to call Entebbe an Israeli invasion of Uganda. Meanwhile if you want this list to cover something broader than just invasions and occupations, we already have that: List of wars involving Ukraine; a List of battles fought in Ukraine would also be reasonable. If you would like to start an RfC, or to request a move to a broader title, you're of course welcome to, but I would oppose either. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 23:28, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Russian invasion of Ukraine and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 25#Russian invasion of Ukraine until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Hentheden (talk) 22:19, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At