Talk:List of state representatives of the People's Republic of China

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Can't we have simply "Presidents of China"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.112.18 (talk) 21:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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The article begins "This is a list of all the Chairmen (Chairwomen) of the People's Republic of China (1954–1975)..." but now the first item is the Central People's Government (1949–1954). This is contradictory. The chairman of the Central People's Government was not the same position as the Chairman of the People's Republic of China. The name was different, the powers and duties were different. The Central People's Government probably deserves its own web page, and the chairman's position is much more appropriate there. If the CPG chairman MUST appear together with the PRC chairman, I suggest yet another page, head of state of the People's Republic of China. Perhaps we could even through the paramount leader in there. Rgr09 (talk) 16:37, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The title in the third section, Chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, again contradicts the introductory paragraph. The previous versions of this page also had this problem, but the current headings and formatting now underline the contradiction. Putting the title Chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress up in a big heading in an article titled List of Presidents of the People's Republic of China is bound to confuse people, and will cause problems for anyone trying to explain these totally different positions in other articles.

Again, if all these different positions MUST appear next to each other, putting them on a page called List of Heads of State of the People's Republic of China is much more appropriate. My 2 cents. Rgr09 (talk) 04:42, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. It is additionaly confusing for readers as the Chairman link in the first paragraph is piped to the President article.

Lets solve this problem. Create the article List of Heads of State of the People's Republic of China and put the full list of relevant Chairmen and Presidents on there. Then write the articles at President of the People's Republic of China and Chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress such that they make clear the distinction between and the frequent overlap in the titles and their use. Rincewind42 (talk) 15:10, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone find a better photo of Yang Shangkun. The current picture is of him aged about 33 where as all the other photos in the article show the people at or near the time that they were in office as president. At first glance a reader can get the wrong impression. Rincewind42 (talk) 16:38, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason why another page with almost identicial information should be created. Str1977 ^(talk) 09:48, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The idea was to create a page for heads of state that keeps the information currently on this page, and to change the information on list of presidents. If heads of state is not necessary, I'll just go ahead and directly edit this page down. Rgr09 (talk) 21:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to put two pages (or maybe thee) in the sandbox, one for Heads of State, the other for Presidents and perhaps one for Chairman, then Str1977 might understand the differences. Rincewind42 (talk) 03:06, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Having two pages is silly. Rename this article if you must so that it better reflects the content but to split of half of the list is pointless. Str1977 ^(talk) 13:15, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide sources for the details that you say are wrong? Str1977 ^(talk) 16:36, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For the election of Liu Shaoqi to a second term as State Chairman on 3 January 1965 see "National People's Congress Notice 1". People's Daily. 3 January 1965. Retrieved 2013-11-24.

For Liu's removal on 31 Oct. 1968 see the "Communique of the expanded 12th plenary session of the Eighth Central Committee of the Communist Party of China". People's Daily Online. 3 January 1965. Retrieved 2013-11-24.

For Yang Shangkun's seat in the PLA delegation at the 7th NPC, see "List of Delegates to the 7th National People's Congress". National People's Congress website. Retrieved 2013-11-24.

For Hu Jintao's seat in the Jiangsu delegation at the 11th NPC, see "List of Delegates to the 11th National People's Congress". National People's Congress website. Retrieved 2013-11-24.

For the fact that Soong Ching-ling did not resign as State Vice-Chairman on 24 February 1972, there are several sources. First, there are newspapers of the time which mention her as vice-chair after this date. For example, "Vice-Chairman Soong Ching-ling Greets Miss Amy Sheffield (in Chinese)". People's Daily. 2 December 1973. p. 4.: "Vice-Chairman of the People's Republic of China Soong Ching-ling met with American friend Amy Sheffield, and held warm, friendly discussions with her."

Another source is the standard biography of Soong, Sheng Yonghua [盛永華] (2006). Chronological Biography of Soong Ching-ling, 1893-1981 [宋慶齡年譜 1893-1981], in Chinese. Guangzhou: Guangdong People's Publishing [廣東人民出版社]. pp. 2:1799.

ISBN 7218052649

.: "On January 12, 1975, at her Beijing residence, Song received the report of Liao Chengzhi and Wu De on the First Session of the Fourth National People's Congress and its agenda, including the change of [her status as] State Vice-Chairman to Vice-Chairman of the Standing Committee of the NPC." The source for this is Du Shuzhou, Soong's amanuensis for the last part of her life.

I put in most of these sources when editing the page, but they were removed when everything was reverted. This is funny; Wikipedia's stated policy is that if you don't provide sources, your edits can be removed at any time, but sometimes when you do provide sources, that's what gets removed, and unsourced junk and gossip is what stays. Where are the sources for Soong's appointment as acting (joint) Chairman of the People's Republic of China? Where are the sources for Soong's appointment as the acting Chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress? There are none, and all of those claims should be taken out. Rgr09 (talk) 06:12, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the sourcing. Please note that I did not put in those things but only retained the information as it already existed.

However, the two things you complain about not being sourced are actually sourced by the sources you provided just now! Str1977 ^(talk) 14:49, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How so? Both sources refer to Soong by her actual position, Vice-Chairman of the People's Republic of China, neither source says a word about her acting in the capacity of Chairman of the People's Republic. I've specifically looked for such references in Sheng, and nowhere prior to 1981 does Sheng mention Soong acting as Chairman of the People's Republic. Only on her deathbed did she receive the title of honorary chairman. Rgr09 (talk) 09:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a continuation of the previous section, and repeats some information on the talk page for President of the People's Republic of China. Song Qingling and Dong Biwu are listed here as "Acting Presidents," but this is unsourced, and as such is subject to challenge and removal. In an attempt to resolve this, I finally got access to the People's Daily database and here are the results. From Feb 24, 1972 to Jan 19, 1975, Dong Biwu was referred to as the "Acting State Chairman" (中华人民共和国代主席). In several articles published after Dong's death on April 2, 1975, he is also referred to as the "former acting State Chairman." These references are from articles which describe foreign governments' condolences on Dong's death. Prior to Feb 24, 1972, Dong is always referred to as "State Vice-Chairman"; for instance, in an article on Feb 4, 1972 noting Dong's congratulations to the King of Nepal on his coronation.

Since there does seem to be some basis for claiming Dong was "acting" State Chairman (= President), I will revise the dates given in the article based on the People's Daily articles.

For Song Qingling, however, she is NEVER referred to as "Acting State Chairman" in the People's Daily, but always as "State Vice-chairman." There are many articles during the period when Dong was "acting chairman" that both Song and Dong are mentioned. Their titles are always different in this period: Dong is "acting chairman", Song is "Vice-chairman." Based on this, I am deleting Song from the list at this point. If you have some basis for claiming that Song was also an "acting chairman", please put it up here.

Note that these changes also mean that from 1968 when Liu Shaoqi was removed from office extra-constitutionally until 1972, when the People's Daily began referring to Dong as "acting" chairman, the office of state chairman or president was apparently vacant. Rgr09 (talk) 05:15, 17 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Retaining the title of Vice-Chairman and not being formally inaugurated does not mean that one does not fulfill the capacities of the vacant office. Not every country formally appoints a deputy to fulfill the duties of their dismissed boss, other than the United States e. g. where most acting officers will be swearen in with much pathos in front of congress only to be replaced a week later. Also, it is e. g. absolutely normal that in the U. S. (only to choose a prominent example) when a new President begins and most officials resign, in lower less prominent positions the deputy will fulfill the post automatically without any appointment to the title of this post (especially in 2017, as Donald Trump pretty much does not care about hundreds of positions that are still to be appointed and currently fulfilled by many not appointed deputies).

In countries of South America (where presidents have resigned very, very often in the 19th century) there have been many Vice-Presidents fulfilling the duties of the President but (in difference to the U. S.) never formally receiving the title of President, not even on an acting basis, but retaining their prior title. Also, in Germany Horst Seehofer, as President of the Bundesrat, was never appointed by anyone in 2012 to fulfill the Federal President's duties for 30 days, he just did it, as it was his automatic job.

On the other hand, the fact that you wrote that Song had to ask not to welcome or accompany Richard Nixon indicates that the State Vice-Chairmen had the duties of the vacant Chairman but without the title, just like that one who governed Chile from 1830 to 1831 with the title of Vicepresident. So Song and Dong should be in the list, with a clear remark that their titles remained "Vice-Chairman". --SamWinchester000 (talk) 13:25, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My question was what titles did Dong and Soong hold after the extra-constitutional removal of Liu Shaoqi from office. The only public record I was able to find was the Renmin Ribao. Although Liu died in 1969, from 1970 until February 1972 both Dong and Soong were referred to in Renmin ribao as "vice state-chairmen". From Feb. 1972 on, however, Dong was referred to as "acting state chairman" while Soong remained "vice state-chairman."

Thus, in contrast to what you seem to be claiming, Dong did not automatically become "acting state chairman" as soon as Liu was arrested, or even after Liu was dead. There was some decision to "promote" Dong to "acting state chairman" at some point, but I know of no information on when or how this occurred. Like Liu's removal, this decision was extra-constitutional, since neither the National People's Congress nor its Standing Committee met from 1966-1975. In one account I've read, Dong found out about his appointment when he heard a radio news broadcast refer to him as acting state chairman.

In any case, in the current article, Dong is indeed listed as "acting state chairman" so I don't see a problem here, unless you want to extend his dates back to 1968 to make it look like there was a state chairman between 1968 and 1972. In that case, I object of course, since he was explicitly referred to in all Chinese media from 1968 to February 1972 as vice chairman. Or do you want to list Dong twice, once as vice-chairman acting as chairman and once as acting chairman? I don't think this is an acceptable solution.

Or perhaps you want to promote Soong Ching-ling to acting chairman as well? I object to this also. In addition to fact that the Chinese media have NEVER at any time referred to Soong as 'acting state chairman', there is not a scrap of evidence that Soong ever acted in the capacity at any time during this period. You seem to think that if Soong had met with Nixon it would have to be as chairman. This is not true. As vice-chairman in the fifties and sixties, she regularly met heads of states. Meeting heads of state does not make you state chairman.

In general terms, you claim that "Not every country formally appoints a deputy to fulfill the duties of their dismissed boss." In fact, the vast majority of countries mark the change of leaders with some sort of formal announcement or ceremony. China from the 1960s to the 1970s was a very prominent exception to this practice.

You cite Horst Seehofer as an example of someone who was not appointed to an interim position, but just "did it." In fact, he officially moved into the office and began signing legislation as soon as Wulf left, and was immediately acknowledged as interim president in the media. They did not continue to call him deputy president for over two years before switching over to acting president. The contrast with Dong (and Soong) could not be greater.

Your comments on the system of appointments to federal office in the United States are also incorrect if you mean to imply that someone can become, for example, "acting secretary of defense" without appointment. Departmental secretaries are retained or replaced at the discretion of the President. If the president intends to replace an office-holder, but does not yet have a permanent replacement on hand, a public statement that so-and-so will remain as "acting secretary" will still have to be made. I know of no exceptions to this procedure in the twentieth century. Do you? Who was it?

Finally, you also comment that in the United States "most acting officers will be sworn in with much pathos in front of congress only to be replaced a week later." Which president or vice-president you are referring to? I await your response with curiosity. Rgr09 (talk) 16:59, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was never claiming that Dong automatically became "Acting Chairman". I stated that it would be absolutely normal for a deputy person to fulfill the duties of a vacant post, even without the title and while retaining the vice title, just like e. g. many South American Vicepresidents that retained their Vicepresident title. This is the only official reason a deputy is appointed for (except for increasing an individual's reputation, which is of course not the official function of such a post). The post of Chairman was not abolished, so the duties of the post were still existing. It should be absolutely right and a proper improvement to call the post vacant – while the Vice-Chairmen did their work, which meant to fulfill the duties of the dismissed/deceased superior.

What I meant with the U. S. was the fact that the temporary successor of Sally Yates was only acting for one month, however, he was sworn in in front of congress. This won't happen for a temporary official in most other countries that do not overdo it that much like the U. S. Also, as far as I know, hundreds of posts in U. S. departments are vacant and fulfilled by minor posts because the current administration seems to be to slowly at that issue. (see that example, where chargé d’affaires are still currently doing the work) I only wanted to explain that an inauguration or appointment is not necassary to prove that a deputy does his work, which of course means fulfilling the duties of a vacant superior post. Temporarily taking over the title of the superior post ("Acting chairman" in the case of this article) is not necessary to do that work. It's pure logic as any deputy in the world is employed to do that work, when the superior is prevented from doing it themselves. What I wanted to say is that (in contrast to your "some sort of formal announcement or ceremony") nobody appointed Horst Seehofer or José Tomás Ovalle to act as head of state. As deputies, fulfilling the duties of the vacant head of state was their automatical function, while they did not receive that title but retained their prior title. The case with Dong and Song has only been longer because the National People's Congress practically never met.

As the NPC never met, it is pretty obvious that nobody had appointed them to a higher title for years, until it was done for one of them in 1972. (I never wanted to make Song an "Acting Chairman".) Your sources that they remained Vice-Chairmen are of course correct and that should stand in the article. However, that does not mean that the post or the duties of the Chairman were abolished, that happened in 1975. Before, the post was still existing. Regarding the fact that – as you said – China usually did not do a special appointment but rather let things lie for 4 years, the missing of an elevation of Song's and/or Dong's title is not extraordinery, does not affect everyday buisness after the dismission of the head of state and does not mean that they would not have done the work of a proper deputy in absence of their superior. As long as you do not have a source for Liu's post or rather the duties of it being practically terminated after his dismissal, there is no problem with two Vice Chairmen doing his work without being elevated to the vacant post. --SamWinchester000 (talk) 00:59, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, both should stand in the list, including the remark that either had not been Chairman, but Vice-Chairman, no matter if that would be complicated to edit/read. Actually, writing their names and data in italics should helpt to clarify it. --SamWinchester000 (talk) 01:10, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be confused on a number of points. For example, Sally Yates' successor, Dana Boente, did not take the oath of office in front of Congress, check your source again. Only the U.S. President does this. Boente did take an oath of office, of course; anyone who holds a position in U.S. civil service or military service must take an oath of office. This is a simple formalism that spells out the fundamental legal duties of their office. I don't understand why you think this is "overdoing it" but you are entitled to your opinion.

I take it you want both Dong and Soong in the list, possibly with Dong listed twice. You suggest this based on a theory that when the Communist Party, in violation of the Chinese Constitution, removed Liu Shaoqi as state chairman, Dong and Soong then acted as state chairmen, rather than as vice-chairmen. What is the basis of this claim? Please give sources for Chinese law and practice, not confused analogies from Germany or South America. Remember also that standard constitutional practices were not applied in this period. Let me give you an example of what I would consider a reason to reconsider my views. Did Dong and Soong exercise powers that the Chinese Constitution delegates to the State Chairman? Did they appoint amabassadors? Did they promulgate laws? Please give sources for all such putative incidents. Lacking such evidence, the period between Liu's removal and Dong's "acting chairmanship" should remain blank. Rgr09 (talk) 11:24, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Why is Hua Guofeng, who succeeded Mao, not listed in the list of heads of state?? 76.190.213.189 (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because he was the Premier (Head of Government), not the Head of state. JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 23:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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