Talk:Mary Curzon, Baroness Curzon of Kedleston

Viceroy of India:

Suzerainty over 175 princely states, some of the largest and most important, was exercised (in the name of the British Crown) by the central government of British India under the Viceroy; the remaining approximately 500 states were dependents of the provincial governments of British India under a Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, or Chief Commissioner (as the case might have been)

Thus, in fact, Leiter was the wife of a British Governor-General who was made an Irish baron in 1898.

Generally, a title of nobility held by an American citizen is not recognized as an official title by the US government. See also the discussion here: Does the US recognize foreign titles of nobility during the naturalization process?

IMO, the above-mentioned sentence should either be referenced to a reliable source or removed from the article.

--91.61.104.84 (talk) 12:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is not clear to me how the US constitution matters. She married a British man, and acted as a couple with him. Her title mattered as his wife and in India and the UK not America. Seems more like irony to me, but also true, she had the title. --Prairieplant (talk) 07:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As to the those articles on amendments to the US constitution, the first relates to people in the US government and she was not in it. The second never was ratified, so it is irrelevant. --Prairieplant (talk) 07:34, 28 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply. I see your point. From a British or Indian point of view, the claim "highest official title in history of any American woman" is certainly correct, as she married a British man and acted as a couple with him in India. But is the claim really justified? I still feel uncomfortable with this sentence: "As Vicereine of India, she held the highest official title in history of any American woman."

In particular, I have an issue with the comparison "the highest official title".

What is an "official title"?

Vicereine is listed under aristocratic titles, not under legislative and executive titles

.

How do you compare, for example, the title of a (theoretically female) US vice president, a legislative and executive title, to the aristocratic title of the wife of a viceroy. A viceroy is a regal official who runs a territory on behalf of some monarch. The office of "Viceroy and Governor-General of India" was an official part of the British Government until 1947.

Which title is a higher rank?

The wife of a reigning king is called a queen consort. A reigning female royal is called a queen. In Leiter's case, as vicereine she was not the regal official who ran the territory, but the wife of the viceroy. Let's have a closer look now at the office of the US vice president. The wife of the incumbing US vice president is called the

Second Lady of the United States

. It is an informal title."

Which title is a higher rank? "she held the highest official title in history of any American woman"

Why is this aristocratic title of the wife of the viceroy of British India a higher rank than the informal title the wife of the incumbing US vice president?

Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State of the United States of America. It is a legislative and executive title. How do you compare this legislative and executive title to an aristocratic title (not recognized in the US!), and which one is a higher rank?

"Secretary of State of the United States of America" is an official title. The Secretary of State of the United States is the highest-ranking appointed executive branch official both in the presidential line of succession and the order of precedence. The Secretary of State is fourth in the Presidential Line of Succession.

Is the aristocratic title "vicereine" of the wife of the Viceroy and Governor-General of India also an official title, when her husband is in office? Usually , the title of the spouse is an unofficial one.

First Lady

of the US. However, First Lady is an unofficial title. So, I even doubt that the term "official title" is in Leiter's case correct.

I simply have difficulties to understand why the wife of a British Governor-General of India should be ranked higher than a female Secretary of State of the United States.

IMO, you can't compare the incomparable. This comparison makes no sense to me and I think it should be removed. At least, "official title" should be replaced with "aristocratic title".

--93.193.2.42 (talk) 16:07, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source for vicereine being an aristocratic title rather than an official title of Britain at that time? I mean a source different from the organization of a Wikipedia list article. If so, you can use that to make the change you want. For now, I put aristocratic in the body of the article and left official in the lead. Plus I added, of her time, which seems obvious but is now stated. She gained an aristocratic title simply by marrying him; her husband was appointed Viceroy in the era of the Raj, which seems different to my non-historian eyes. As to your comparisons to American women in America: the wife of the US President or the spouse of a US governor has a title given by society and the press, not the government. How each one uses the visibility given by virtue of their spouse's elected position is their choice. Hillary Clinton is also long after Mary Curzon's time, and she is not the first woman to hold a cabinet position in the US. The first woman came after Mary Curzon. Titles in Britain are not my specialty, except to know they have a different importance, and usually arise from different sources, than elected or appointed officials in the US. Some American women who gained titles from marriage outside the US: Grace Kelly, American actress became Princess Grace of Monaco, but long after Mary Curzon's time. Lisa Najeeb Halaby was born American, and became Queen Noor when she married the King of Jordan, but she renounced her US citizenship if the Wikipedia article is correct (no source), again long after Mary Curzon. What remains is for you to find a source on how the British of the time of Mary Curzon and her husband viewed the title of vicereine. Else I suggest leaving the sentence as is. --Prairieplant (talk) 05:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

CrumbleCrumble This change you made here} to the categories for this article is a bit startling to me. I do not generally mess with categories; your change raised a question. Derby is in England. You say Northern Ireland. Both are British, right? Why change it. I changed it back to British. Her husband was born in Derbyshire aka County Derby, in England. Baron Ravensdale is based in Derby. In addition, "He was created a Peer of Ireland as Baron Curzon of Kedleston, in the County of Derby,[22" If he has two barony titles, why choose just one? Their daughter inherited the Barony of Ravensdale title. How many of her husband's titles did Mary get, as his wife? As you see, I find these title confusing, and do not grasp why British was erased in favor of Irish, not even saying Northern Ireland. Please explain your changes in this complex topic. -- Prairieplant (talk) 10:30, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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