Talk:Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia

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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: Rudling, Per A. (2011). "The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust: A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths". The Carl Beck Papers in Russian and East European Studies (2107): 11,12. ISSN 2163-839X . Winstone, Martin (2015). The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi Rule in Poland Under the General Government. I.B. Tauris & Company Limited. pp. 104, 205. ISBN 978-0-7556-2395-2 .

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I have found two spelling errors in the section about the Ukrainian view surrounding the classification as a genocide.

1. Change: "Ukrainian historians called for assessing the massacres in the historical context, pointing out historical repressions against Ukrainian population and forced polonizatioin in pre-war Poland." To: "Ukrainian historians called for assessing the massacres in the historical context, pointing out historical repressions against Ukrainian population and forced polonization in pre-war Poland."

2. Change: "Ukrainian historian Yuri Shapoval openly speaks about "Volhynia Slaugher" and calls for increased recognition of the massacre inside Ukraine, pointing out very complex ethnic composition of these territories, mutual historical resentments and incitement by external parties, Soviets, Germans and Polish government on exile." To: "Ukrainian historian Yuri Shapoval openly speaks about "Volhynia Slaughter" and calls for increased recognition of the massacre inside Ukraine, pointing out very complex ethnic composition of these territories, mutual historical resentments and incitement by external parties, Soviets, Germans and Polish government on exile."

 Done Xan747 (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The bold text is just there to make the error/correction stand out and should not be added to the Wiki-page Magsrom (talk) 14:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect Volyn Crime has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 July 27 § Volyn Crime until a consensus is reached. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 01:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Reaper1945: Please provide a substantive reason for your reversion. There's a range with a citation. It's not in the spirit of collaborative editing to just change a number without any reason, without a source, and without a discussion.

Also, @Bobfrombrockley: could you please include a quote regarding the fatality estimates from Kulińska using Template:Cite book?

Daniel Quinlan (talk) 21:08, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

|I’m not sure why that request is addressed to me Daniel Quinlan. Also Reaper1945’s edit seems to me correct as it gives the number range in the fully referenced body, which the info box should summarise, rather than arbitrarily picking one source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:17, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I pinged you because of your edit here. I don't have access to that source, but that's the one you left next to the estimate you used. And if there are other sources being used for the Infobox fatality numbers then they should also be cited there. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Bobfrombrockley, @Daniel Quinlan; please don't confuse genocide in Volhynia, which indeed consumed c. 50-60k people, with the entire OUN-UPA "anti-Polish action" which resulted in the death of c. 100k people. It's well explained in the lead and the body Marcelus (talk) 05:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have access to that source, which relates solely to Czech deaths and was already there when I edited. My edit was to remove Motyka and his 100,000 in favour of the range of numbers which are given, with sources, in our relevant section, as there is no reason to pick Motyka over the other sources and the infobox should reflect the body.

The relevant section could do with some disentangling, as different figures reflect different groups of casualties, but range from 50-100,000. The page List of estimates of the number of victims of massacres committed by the UPA against Poles and of Polish retaliatory actions is much clearer and could be drawn on for clarification. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:22, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Motyka, unlike most other historians mentioned on that page, focused his academic work on the Polish-Lithuanian conflict and UPA massacres, reaserching this subject for decades. His calculations are based on extensive read of sources and are by far the most recent ones. Marcelus (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So you're saying we should use Motyka in the infobox but not Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe and Per Anders Rudling, for example, who have also been researching this subject for decades? And also Motyka gives slightly different figures in different publications - which source do you want to be the single one cited by the infobox? BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:13, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neither Rossoliński nor Rudling were researching the "anti-Polish" action of UPA or making any kind of their own calculations. Motyka's 2011 Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji Wisła is the most recent of Motyka's calculations. Marcelus (talk) 14:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any way you could give a more detailed summary of what he actually said, perhaps a translation of a direct quotation that we could include in a footnote? I believe it was published in English last year. It would be verify that scholars agree it is definitive compared to other texts. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sure; in my translation:

It is not easy to give the number of people who were victims of all these events. This is not the place to discuss the rich literature on the subject and the interesting discussion accompanying the disputes on the subject. Let us point out that the largest number of Poles suffered death in Volhynia. According to the findings of Władysław and Ewa Siemaszko, in 1943 at least at least 33,000 Poles, of whom about 19,000 are known by name. The total number of those killed at the hands of Ukrainian nationalists there may be in the range of 40 to as many as 60 thousand people. In Eastern Galicia, estimates of of 30-40 thousand Polish victims, while in the lands of present-day Poland 6-8 thousand Poles perished.

In light of the numbers cited, it seems that Polish losses as a result of the UPA's actions probably amounted to about 100 thousand dead (with which is more likely to be slightly less, rather than more than 100 thousand). Any higher numbers quoted - 150 or even 200 thousand victims - are not are confirmed by any serious scientific studies, and their frequent appearance in the media can probably only be explained by a the desire to create a sensation.

Let us note that the vast majority of Polish victims fell before the conclusion of the AK-WiN and UPA agreements in the spring of 1945 (from the meeting in the vicinity of Ruda Różaniecka until the end of 1947 died at the hands of the Ukrainian underground in Poland about 3,000 people, in large part soldiers of the Polish Army, WOP and KBW). This shows how important for the Polish historical memory is the first stage of the conflict.

Much controversy surrounds the assessment of Ukrainian losses. Ten years ago, probably as the first Polish historian, I tried to estimate them. To the best of my knowledge at the time, I concluded that 15,000-20,000 Ukrainians were killed as a result of Polish actions. Today, in light of the latest data, I would be inclined to lower the number of Ukrainian victims somewhat. Probably 2,000 to 3,000 Ukrainians were killed at the Polish hand in Volhynia (not counting those killed by auxiliary police). In Eastern Galicia, 1-2 thousand Ukrainians were killed. The situation was completely different in the lands of present-day Poland. More Ukrainians than Poles were killed there in 1943-1947, probably 8-10 thousand (3-4 thousand by the summer of 1944 and 5-6 thousand in the period 1944-1947). The total would give a figure of 10-11 thousand to 15 thousand killed. Again, giving higher numbers is not supported by any scientific research. Let's emphasize it clearly - the numbers of 30, 50 or even 70 thousand killed Ukrainians found in Ukrainian textbooks are simply taken "from the ceiling." Marcelus (talk) 16:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's really helpful. Huge thanks. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]