Talk:Mirza Abu Taleb Khan

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@Rathfelder: Hi there. This figure was of Iranian stock and was born in India to an Iranian father (EI3 even simply calls him “Persian”). - LouisAragon (talk) 18:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"of Iranian stock" doesnt really mean Iranian. Iranian is a nationality or a location. No mention of his ever doing anything in Iran. Rathfelder (talk) 19:00, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Rathfelder:

• ""of Iranian stock" doesnt really mean Iranian."

This figure was born in the Mughal Empire to Iranian parents and wrote all of his works in Persian. So he suddenly turned full blown Indian when he was born there? What about all those British figures who were born in British India; were they all Indian rather than British? Or were they both? Mind you, technically, there was not even a nation of "India" at the time of Mirza Abu Taleb Khan's birth. And for the record, per EI3: "Abū Ṭālib Khān Tabrīzī Iṣfahānī (1166–1220/1752 or 1753–1805 or 1806) was a Persian author and traveller born and raised in Lucknow, the son of Ḥājji Muḥammad Beg Khān (d. 1182/1768), an Iranian settled in India. " -- Enc of Islam, third edition[1]

• "Iranian is a nationality or a location. No mention of his ever doing anything in Iran."

So all Armenians who live or were born outside Armenia are "non-Armenian"?

IMO a compromise should be reached. A figure who's origins are clearly underlined in

WP:VER. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:48, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

• Nationality and ethnicity/descent are not the same thing. He is in Category:18th-century Persian-language writers . Is that not what you mean when you say he is Persian? The article doesnt suggest he ever went to Persia. He is described as an Indian tax-collector. Rathfelder (talk) 19:55, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Did you even read the Encyclopaedia of Islam source which I copy-pasted here? Its also cited in the lede of the article. It describes Mirza Abu Taleb Khan as "Persian" and his parentage as "Iranian". The "Indian" part in the lede of this article refers to his area of birth (i.e. some sources refer to him as Indian of Persian descent)[2]. I think both Indian and Iranian categories should stay, per WP:RS and WP:VER. - LouisAragon (talk) 20:02, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to ping Rathfelder - LouisAragon (talk) 20:57, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We have categories like "Indians of Persian descent", but as he appears never to have visited Persia it seems misleading to categorise him as Persian. Category:Iranian people is based on nationality, not descent or language. Rathfelder (talk) 21:15, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with LouisAragon. Also, Category:Iranian people is not (only?) based on nationality, but ethnicity. Otherwise we wouldn't have categories such as, say Category:3rd-century BC Iranian people, or any other x-century BC x people categories for that matter. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]