Talk:Moroccan Arabic

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Talk in MORROCO article|class=B|level=5|topic=Society}}

Please have a look at

I don't think it is a good idea, in fact I am the one who created this entry, as it was just redirecting to Moroccan Arabic, but as the word is also used in Algeria, Tunisia and Libya I tought it would be better to mention this. In fact, I think we better add a Disambiguation.--Khalid hassani 11:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation done --Khalid hassani 12:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Great job Khalid. Tags are removed now. Cheers -- Szvest 09:04, 27 December 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}[reply]

Good job. Here are some notes that might be helpful. I read daba in many Andalusian zajals, you can check El Mughrib fi Hullayi el Maghrib. probable origin CA dɶʔbɶn دأباً habitually yekh, akh أخ is a CA onomatopoeia expressing disgust,you can check any good dictionary, I don't think it should be on the Berber list of loanwords. radio, telfaza, camera, tilifun are also loanwords used in standard arabic , maybe it's better to include words specific to Moroccan or Maghrebi dialects. the retention of CA words no longer in use in other dialects specifically Middle Eastern, is a very good point.I think it is a striking feature in Maghrebi dialects, but habatˤa is probably not the best example, I don't know if words such as tˤaħ طاح , tselsf تسلف, naw (rain CA نوء ) are used in Moroccan Arabic; I think they're shared by most Maghrebi dialects. the entire deletion of short vowels seems pretty much questionable as short vowels are present in a good number of words; sma3 short e, Kulši short u, nti short i, a tendency to delete short vowel may sound better. Compared to other Maghrebi dialects, the absence of Turkish loanwords seems to me a noticeable feature appertaining to Moroccan Arabic.--Sayih (talk) 19:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Probably it would be good to have some example phrases, like:

Are you OK?			Labas 3lik?
Can you please help me?			yemken lek t3awnee
Do you Speak English				ouesh tat tkelem belinglisia
Excuse me			smah'liyah
Good Luck			hath' said
Good morning			s' bah l'khir
Good night			Tsba-alakher
Goodbye			beslama
Happy new year			Sana sa3eeda
Hello			ahlan
How are you doing?				Labas 3laik??
How are you?			kidair (m) / kidaira? (f)
I am fine (OK)			ana labas
Nice to meet you				misharafin
No thank you			la shokran
Please			allah y'khalleek 
Take care			t'halla f'rasak
Thank you very much				shukran bezzef
What do you do?			f'ash khaddam?
What's your name?				shnu  smitik?
Where are you from?				nta mneen?(m) /nti mneen? (f)
You're welcome			blajmeel

deeptrivia (talk) 23:03, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Done--Khalid hassani 17:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

& I have also added the northern moroccan sentences. Sabertooth 14:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would someone have the time to spend getting the phrases to line up correctly? Wiki tables are not difficult, but here the proper syntax has not been followed.

Snezzy 18:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how that happened but last time I contributed to the table it was fine. Probably it got too much filled with the Oujda dialect. I don't know how to fix it. --Sabertooth 12:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've fixed the table. I used the transliteration of Arabic alphabet found in the article. So it's all good and doesn't need more editing -- Sabertooth 00:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are these two different? Should the articles be merged? deeptrivia (talk) 23:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Moroccan Arabic is a subset of Maghreb Arabic, which also comprises Algerian and Tunisian Arabics --Khalid hassani 11:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As the general pronunciation of the words (not north, middle, south, or whatever). The only thing I'm not sure off is the

Is mezyan really of Berber Origin? In Iraqi they say zayn for "good" and this is from the Classical Lexicon. Mezyan sounds like some kind of participle built off of this root, maybe the wazn مفعّل?

Can someone help with the Arabic at Mahmoud Guinia? It's given here, but I don't know what the three dots or "v" symbol above the letters mean. Thank you, Badagnani (talk) 01:35, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Answered. Badagnani (talk) 07:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can something be added in this article about the letter gaf (گ? Badagnani (talk) 07:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To download mp3s online to learn Moroccan Arabic, check out this website: http://moroccanarabiclanguage.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.55.234.47 (talk) 20:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't think that the word "Najjar" (carpenter) is of Berber origin : it does exist in Standard Arabic ! The job is called "an-nijara".--180.160.24.166 (talk) 05:33, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It would be more correct to specify that the 3 categories you have chosen for categoraztion the darija are not exclusive and that there are other regional dialects that were omitted. I would also like to stress the fact that the western arabic category is too wide. In my city (Salé) and in Rabat the dialect is much closer to Tetouani/Jebli category than the Western one, so it's not only a matter of geography. Check our article (Arabe Salétin) for further details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anass Sedrati (talk • contribs) 13:48, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Speakers of Darija will know that the Berber influence is marginal except in Jebli and perhaps Jijel Arabic (the latter one I have never heard). Jebli is pre-bedouin and is influenced by the original arabic spoken by the only berbers to be arabized in the region prior to the mass arrival of the banu hilal and possibly Andalusi Arabic. There is an influence in terms of pronounciation and manner of speech and expressions directly translated from berber but linguistically it is largely based on Hilali Arabic, who come from somewhere in the Hijaaz I believe. Because the pronounciation is difficult to understand by eastern arabs (except perhaps those who have had some contact with it and have a rich understanding of classical arabic), there is a myth that it is largely based on Berber and this should be dispelled in this article. There is also a political undertone and element of xenophobia to this belief. There are very few berber words in the large majority of Maghrebi dialects and it is firmly rooted in Bedouin Arabic. Strangely Mauritanians and Libyans are believed by mashreq arabs to speak a very pure form of arabic, when they just speak another variant of Darija. French or Spanish loan words are not always used and one can speak correct Darija without barely using any and substituting most of them with either Darija or Fus7a. This is purely attributed to code switching. I think this should be made clear with the relevant sources.Asilah1981 (talk) 21:20, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In terms of verbs, the only one which I can think of may be of berber origin is "sifet" to send. 99% are arabic in any case. Asilah1981 (talk) 21:23, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the vocabulary subsection "Examples of words borrowed from Spanish", there are a few unlikely IPA transcriptions:

* playa  : playa (beach) ([plɑyɑ)
* pasiyo : paseo (walk) ([pasiyo])

The vowels in the triphthong /

It's not the actual sound. Using ⟨y⟩ for the

palatal approximant is a serious mistake as far as the IPA is concerned, where ⟨y⟩ is defined as the close front rounded vowel. Sol505000 (talk) 14:02, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply

]

Hello @إيان:. Isn't "العربية المغربية الدارجة" more like Medlaoui's "Middle Moroccan Arabic", which is a standardization proposal that basically creates a language between spoken Moroccan Arabic and Standard Arabic? Shouldn't that have its own article or at least its own paragraph instead?-- Ideophagous (talk) 06:01, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think he called that Middle Moroccan Arabic "لغة عربية مغربية وُسطى". There's an article on this concept generally, for a middle Arabic language between فصحى and local varieties, on WP Arabic: لهجة بيضاء and it should be on WP English too. إيان (talk) 15:44, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding this nonsense: 1) this is article is about "Moroccan Arabic" and not Hassaniya Arabic. 2) there is no such thing as "Moroccan Sahara" (except in the heads of the colonialists and their cheerleaders). M.Bitton (talk) 16:33, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1) If you have checked where the

NPOV on Wikipedia given what official sources say. Stating that Morocco is "colonialist" is definitely not NPOV.-- Ideophagous (talk) 16:58, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

Exactly, that's how Morocco calls it, but since we're not the cheerleaders of Morocco, we couldn't care less how they call it over there. No, you don't add anything about Hassaniya since it has nothing to do with the primary subject (Moroccan Arabic). M.Bitton (talk) 16:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1) The two dialects/languages could be confused by some readers, so clatification is important. 2) Hassaniya is spoken within the non-disputed regions of Morocco in any case. If you can suggest a better phrasing of the sentence, go ahead, but removing the whole statement makes no sense.-- Ideophagous (talk) 17:04, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's your POV. There is no reason whatsoever anyone would confuse the two unrelated subjects. Again, Hassaniya has its own article for anyone who's interested in it. M.Bitton (talk) 17:05, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's not my POV, and there's nothing controversial about stating that two dialects that exist within the same country are not to be confused with one another.-- Ideophagous (talk) 17:08, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is also French, Spanish and multitude of other dialects that should also mentioned in that case (since you're assuming that the readers are imbeciles). Is that what you're suggesting? M.Bitton (talk) 17:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Those other languages are not Arabic dialects. Duh!-- Ideophagous (talk) 17:11, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

the readers (that you seem to be treating as imbeciles) wouldn't know that either. M.Bitton (talk) 17:12, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is an article about language, not about borders and nation-states. M.Bitton, how do you propose this article should treat Hassaniya Arabic? إيان (talk) 17:38, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@إيان: I agree that it's about a language, but why should Hassaniya be mentioned in this article? M.Bitton (talk) 17:40, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's a simple statement that these two Arabic varieties are different from each other and should not be confused.-- Ideophagous (talk) 18:02, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's anything but a simple statement (especially, given the way it was phrased). You have yet to give a valid reason as to why it should be mentioned. M.Bitton (talk) 18:08, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hence what I wrote earlier: feel free to rephrase it in a way that is satisfying to both parties. It's a completely valid and reasonable statement to point out that two languages belonging to the same family, and existing in the same country, should not be confused. It's the opposite opinion that demands a reason as to why the statement should be removed. If you insist on the contrary, then we'll have no choice but to call for an

RfC.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:19, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply

]

I just hope that by same country you're not referring to anything that is remotely connected to Western Sahara, otherwise, we'll have a different discussion altogether.

If the idea is to inform the reader, then why did you cherry pick Hassaniya and left out all the other Arabic dialects that are spoken in Morocco? M.Bitton (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All Arabic dialects in Morocco, apart from Hassaniya, are under the umbrella of "Moroccan Arabic" (aka Moroccan Darija). There's Judeo-Moroccan Arabic too, but it's mutually intelligible with Moroccan Arabic. As I already stated, there's a minority of Hassaniya speakers in Morocco, even outside the disputed territories (0.8% according to Languages of Morocco).-- Ideophagous (talk) 20:10, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We'll need more than your word for the claim that Eastern Morocco Arabic, Jebli Arabic, Judeo-Moroccan Arabic and Western Morocco Arabic are under the umbrella of "Moroccan Arabic". If and when you can provide reliable sources to back it up, then all those articles need to be merged into this one. Should that be the case and if you still insist on adding Hassaniya, then a simple mention that it is different (assuming there is source to back this claim) and a link to the main article is all that's needed. M.Bitton (talk) 20:15, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The ISO-639-3 code is how you determine languages vs sub-dialects of the same language/dialect. See here the languages that are listed under "Moroccan Arabic".-- Ideophagous (talk) 20:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's another claim that doesn't address all the dialects that I cited. I see one code (ary) for Moroccan Arabic and another (aju) for Judeo-Moroccan Arabic. What exactly am I supposed to do with this piece of information (apart from deducing that these are two distinct dialects, each with its own ISO code)? What about the other dialects? M.Bitton (talk) 21:00, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That ISO-639-3 does not consider any other language/dialect with the name "Moroccan Arabic". Feel free to search further in that form. Either way, if your next comment is not a proposal to reformulate the removed sentence, I'll call for an RfC. Let's get this over with.-- Ideophagous (talk) 06:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To recap, you made a claim that All Arabic dialects in Morocco, apart from Hassaniya, are under the umbrella of "Moroccan Arabic", then, you went on to prove yourself wrong by citing a source that clearly shows that Judeo-Moroccan Arabic is a distinct dialect with its own ISO code.

I already did, but since saying once is obviously not enough, here it is again (this time in green, so that you can't possibly miss it again):

if you still insist on adding Hassaniya, then a simple mention that it is different (assuming there is source to back this claim) and a link to the main article is all that's needed

Taking into account the fact that your claim was baseless, we obviously have to add Judeo-Moroccan Arabic to the sentence. Something along the lines of:

According to the international standard for language codes, Moroccan Arabic is different from the other Arabic dialects that are spoken locally, namely, Hassaniya Arabic and Judeo-Moroccan Arabic.

You are more than welcome to start a RfC, but should you go there, you might as well list the other dialects as an option (without mentioning the international standard for language codes). M.Bitton (talk) 13:42, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There you go, the suggestion you made is fine. Feel free to add that sentence to the lead, or I will add it myself. Thanks for the discussion.-- Ideophagous (talk) 06:44, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since you insist and to avoid injecting unnecessary

WP:SYNTH

into it, I 'll rephrase it as such:

SIL International classifies Moroccan Arabic, Hassaniya Arabic and Judeo-Moroccan Arabic as different languages.

The above keeps the message that they are classified as different and provides the appropriate wikilinks for anyone who's interested in knowing more. Let me know what you think. M.Bitton (talk) 18:08, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just SIL though. As mentioned above the same classification is used by ISO-639-3 standard. In fact, according to the article on SIL, they adopted the ISO-639-3 definition. So I would phrase the above:

SIL International, based on ISO 639-3 standard, classifies Moroccan Arabic, Hassaniya Arabic and Judeo-Moroccan Arabic as different languages.

Ideophagous (talk) 04:09, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it is, since Isil is the registration authority for the the ISO 639-3. Whether they classified them as different different languages or dialects is not at all clear to me. To err on the side of caution, I suggest using "varieties of Arabic" instead of "languages" or "dialects".

SIL International classifies Moroccan Arabic, Hassaniya Arabic and Judeo-Moroccan Arabic as different varieties of Arabic.

As a side note, I just want to stress that having a code assigned by either SIL or the Library of Congress means just that (and nothing more). It doesn't magically turn a dialect into a language, nor does it prove that it's different from another that has been assigned a different code. Equally, the absence of a code doesn't mean that a language is either a dialect or a subdialect. I don't intend on dwelling on this as it's only partially related to a discussion that is nearing its end, but I just thought it's worth a mention in case the subject comes up again. M.Bitton (talk) 23:47, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. There are differing usages of the term "dialect" depending on context. In any case, we seem to have homed in on a formulation that hopefully satisfies everyone. I will proceed to adding it to the lead of the article now. Thanks again.-- Ideophagous (talk) 17:43, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added a Template:Original research section to the Vocabulary section because it's rife with original research. Few cite reliable sources. إيان (talk) 22:18, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]