Talk:Mujaddid/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Note to editors: Please give relevant secondary references of either the person claiming to be a Mujaddid or at least their followers claiming the person to be a Mujaddid. Otherwise lists may be removed.Peaceworld111 (talk) 09:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

@Amanante:. If you have reliable source material that says that Muhammad Abduh can't be called a mujaddid, then please discuss if here. PepperBeast (talk) 18:59, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Why this in the first place; its full reference to blogs, a clear violation of

Great Mujaddid of 14th century of Hijri — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mushahidrazvi (talk • contribs) 06:28, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Imam Ahmed Raza Khan, commonly known as Ahmed Rida Khan in Arabic, or simply as "Ala-Hazrat" (14 June 1856 CE or 10 Shawwal 1272 AH – 28 October 1921 CE or 25 Safar 1340 AH), was an Islamic scholar, jurist, theologian, ascetic, Sufi, Urdu poet, and reformer in British India, great Mujaddid of 14th century of Hijri Imam Ahmed Raza Khan wrote on law, religion, philosophy and the sciences. Mushahidrazvi (talk) 06:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

They try to remove him from Wikipedias mujaddid list, but he is a mujaddid NihalSayyed (talk) 08:06, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

The list of Mujaddid's is incomplete without Imam Ahmed Raza Khan. Kindly add him. Salman Saudagar (talk) 11:05, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Multiple attempts have done by wahabhi sect which have different of opinion on Ahmed Raza Khan being , while huge majority consider him as Mujadid , so it's a propaganda to remove him RQ125 (talk) 07:34, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Entry: "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad" is wrongly added on this page. For Muslims he is False Prophet. he is neither Prophet of Muslims nor Mujaddid.

If we see the list of Mujaddid on this page. There is no name of any Prophet. Because Mujaddid's are not Prophets. Definition of Mujaddid: Mujaddid means the renovator, the one who gives something a new form; and someone who strengthens something by renovating it. Saadyasir (talk) 10:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC) http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/could-you-please-give-information-about-mujaddids-renovator-what-qualities-do-mujaddids-hav

The Qualities of a Mujaddid

> It is not necessary that a Mujaddid be from the Ahle-Bayt as claimed by the Shias and other sects. > It is not necessary that a Mujaddid be a Mujtahid. > What is absolutely necessary is that he be a Sunni with correct beliefs according to the Ahle-Sunnah wa Jamah. > He be profound Aalim of Deen. > He be a Master and embodiment of most of the Sciences of Knowledge. > He be an outstanding Scholar of his time. > His services for the Deen be purely for the pleasure of Allah and His Rasool and not for greed of wealth and other worldly gain. > He be fearless of opposition and rulers of his time. > He will not act or give verdicts to please any person besides Allah and His Rasool. > He will not fear speaking or advocating Truth in all circumstances. > He will not use Religion to gain worldly fame. > He will be a very pious and Allah fearing person. > He will perfect mixture of the Shari'ah and Tari'qah. > He will not tolerate any opposition to the Shari'ah. > And according to 'Allama Imam Isma'il Haqqee, it is necessary for a Mujaddid that both in the last portion of the century he was born in and the beginning of the century he passes away in, he be famous and be a fountain and focal authority of religion for the Ulama of his time. > It is also necessary for a Mujaddid that the Scholars (Ulama) of his time observe, benefit and be convinced of his impeccable lifestyle and profound knowledge and hence acknowledge and announce in public that he is a Mujaddid. > Therefore it is important that a Mujaddid be a perfect embodiment and Alim of both the external (Shari'ah) and internal (Spiritual) sciences of Knowledge promoting the protecting the Sunnah and fighting and destroying Bid'ah. Saadyasir (talk) 10:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC) http://www.ahlesunnat.net/media-library/downloads/regularupdates/mujaddid.htm Saadyasir (talk) 10:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Seems to be well sourced, both on this page and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Cannolis (talk) 01:07, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change

Ahmad Raza Khan (1856–1921)[24]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908)[23][25]

To

Barelvi Views:

Barelvi believes Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi is Mujaddid of Fourteenth Century.

• Ahmad Raza Khan (1856–1921)

Ahmadiyya Views:

Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is their belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Promised Messiah and Mahdi.

• Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908)

I have finally found the article which states the position of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad more clear. In this article it is stated, belief of Ahmadiyya Community that he is Ahmadiyaa community's promised messiah and mahdi.

Here are details which are on Wiki Article: Saadyasir (talk) 11:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC) The distinguishing feature of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is their belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Promised Messiah and Mahdi, as prophesied by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya

In constitution of Pakistan Ahmadiyya community is declared as Non-Muslim.. Saadyasir (talk) 11:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC) The Second Amendment to the Constitution of Pakistan (Urdu: آئین پاکستان میں دوسری ترمیم) became a part of the Constitution of Pakistan on September 7, 1974. It declared that Ahmadis were not Muslims. Many members of the community had to go into exile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_Constitution_of_Pakistan Saadyasir (talk) 11:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC) http://www.na.gov.pk/uploads/documents/1333523681_951.pdf

If you still wants to keep the list as it is then please make is more clear the way it is on this article. Saadyasir (talk) 11:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar Sunni Views Shia Views

If you need more details I am ready to provide that too.

Saadyasir (talk) 11:07, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Looks like you are autoconfirmed — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 20:27, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

"Mirza Ghulam Ahmad" is an odd entry to the page. It needs to be removed.
For the briefing,
Muslims are divided in to Sunni, Shia, Salafi & Modernists.
Mujaddid is a concept predominantly used by the the majority Sunni Muslims - 90% for the population (reference in link below), the idea to revive the religion.
Mujaddid has varying interpretations among Shia Muslims - 9.5% of the population (reference in link below), one among the many ideas is of 12 Imams being the Mujaddid.
Modernists and Salafi acknowledge the concept of Mujaddid as traditionally understood by the Sunni school.

The Ahmadiya Muslims, the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad do not fall into the Muslim circles, just like the Nation of Islam, the Yazidi, the Bahai and Druze.

For proof, check the following link and refer to page number 32, 33, 34 and 35. Among the various schools and sects that are considered to be Muslims, there is no mention of Ahmadiya community (Lahori or Qadiyani) among the divisions of Muslims.
http://themuslim500.com/downloads/TheMuslim500-2017-lowres.pdf

Putting together Sunni & Shia population that is about 99.5 % of the Muslims do not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in any way to be a Muslim, let alone a mujaddid.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the odd-one out, it is analogous to include the name of

 Not doneThe request is not supported by

❯❯❯ Vanguard

15:25, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Request: Remove 'Mirza Ghulam Ahmad' name from the list of Mujaddid.

As per wikipedia.org page, ^[1], in Demographics section, I would like to highlight following 3 points

1. Most independent sources variously estimate the (Ahmadiyya) population to be at least 10 to 20 million worldwide

2. (Admadiyya) Representing around 1% of the world's Muslim population

3. Country with the largest Ahmadiyya population is Pakistan, with an estimated 4 million Ahmadi

So, in a nut shell Ahmadiyaa only represent 1% of the worlds Muslim population with largest population lives in Pakistan. But as per Pakistan's Constitution (Second Amendment) Act, 1974, Ahmadiyaa are not Muslims. ^{[2] [3]}

Based on above mentioned facts along with reliable sources, it is evident that Ahmadiyaa sect are not even considered as Muslims by 99% Majority and rather calling 'Mirza Ghulam Ahmad' (the founder of Admadiyaa sect) as Mujaddid which is the one of the highest status of religious scholars among Muslims is not at all justified.

There can be a difference of opinion on other names but adding a non-muslims is not at all acceptable. So kindly remove 'Mirza Ghulam Ahmad' name from the list of Mujaddid. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.217.94 (talk • contribs)

Not done: You haven't provided any sources that could counteract the sources in the article as it stands. I believe this would be a contentious change to the article and therefore I'm rejecting it on this basis. Although Pakistan may not consider them to be Muslims, Wikipedia doesn't abide by the Pakistan constitution and we keep to a neutral point of view. You may discuss these changes on the talk page with other editors. All the best, st170e 11:44, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Request: Remove 'Mirza Ghulam Ahmad' name from the list of Mujaddid.

Thankyou for the quick reply. This is in continuation of my previous request.

As it is mentioned in the Mujaddid article itself that

″Mujaddid tend to come from the most prominent Islamic scholars of the time (century)″

and

″there is often a popular consensus″.

Both of these criterias doesn't fit on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as I explained in my previous comment. First of all Ahmadiyya only represent a very small percentage i.e. only 1%, so how could he become the most prominent Islamic scholars of the time.

Secondly, talking about concensus, the article or references in wikipedia doesnot mentioned any thing on this point. On the contrary, Ahmadiyya are not even considered to be part of Muslim community where they are in majority (Pakistan) and are declared non-muslims. And not to mention about rest of the world as 90% of the Muslim community dont even know about Ahmadiyya that they even exist.

I will be happy for you to leave the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in the list if there is any Single reference from Any Muslim community (Shia, Sunni, Naqshbandi, Barelwi, Deobandi, Ahle hadith, Salafi, and so on), apart from Ahmadiyya own created websites, that confirm that Ahmadiyya is part of Muslim community.

Simply put, 99% of Muslims either dont know about Ahmadiyya OR unanimously agreed that they are not Muslims. So for adding a name in the Mujaddid list there should be a criteria followed if you are asking for references while removing the name from the list. (I will be surprised if there is no such criteria).

My little effort to promote the authenticity and correctness of information.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.68.217.94 (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2017‎ (UTC)

Not done for now: Hi, thanks for your edit request. At the moment, I'd be inclined to leave it how it is. I would advise you to discuss this with other editors on the talk page first. If this does not prove successful (i.e. there are no replies) then I will revisit this and implement the edit you have suggested. I do appreciate your point of view but I think the edit may be contentious; discuss it with other editors first before reimplementing the edit request. Kind regards and all the best, st170e 14:27, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

This has already been extensively and repeatedly discussed. Ahmadiyya Muslims regard Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Mujaddid. It's not up to Wikipedia to declare that they are wrong. PepperBeast (talk) 19:22, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

it is humbly requested to you kindly change the 14th century Mujaddid in your given list Mirza ghulam Qadiyani not a mujaddid in Islam because last all mujaddids did not declare himself as mujaddid but they show potential for islam and people declare them that he is mujaddid only mirza ghulam qadiani strongly try to declare himself as mujaddid Mujaddid is that person who know the complete knowledge about his religion but here mirza is totally out of knowledge of islam. if your web declare himself as mujaddid so should declare himself prophet because he do declare himself as Nabi(lier) it show that he is not a Mujaddid kindly grant permission to edit this article that who is real mujaddid of Islam 14 century Muhammad Aamir Sultan (talk) 14:23, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:33, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article, in a manner that does not comply with Wikipedia's policies. Editors are encouraged to use neutral mechanisms for requesting outside input (e.g. a "request for comment", a third opinion or other noticeboard post, or neutral criteria: "pinging all editors who have edited this page in the last 48 hours"). If someone has asked you to provide your opinion here, examine the arguments, not the editors who have made them. Reminder: disputes are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Following should be removed. "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad" is declared as Non-Muslim at least in law of Pakistan. Persecution of Ahmadis

• Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908)^[1][2]

References

1. ^ Rippin, Andrew. Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices. p. 282. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coathors= (help)
2. ^ "The Promised Messiah". Al Islam.

Msjkus (talk) 13:31, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Please remove "*Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908)" from the list. Msjkus (talk) 05:16, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@

reliable sources to support this change, it might be considered. The "law of Pakistan" and the Pakistani government are not likely to be considered as reliable sources for this purpose, and have no authority or control over Wikipedia content. Finally, please do not spam multiple requests for the same change, it will not speed anything up or make the change more likely to happen. Thanks. Murph9000 (talk

) 20:32, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@Murph9000: Please see all earlier removal requests regarding Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (along with sources), as he is Ahmadi (Non-Muslim) and mujaddid's are only Muslims.

Second, if wikipedia don't respects any country's law or have respect for other religion belief's then this article should either be removed or no respect should be expected in return as well.

Also I can't find any reliable source for adding mirza ghulam ahmad in the mujadid list

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Msjkus (talk • contribs) 06:14, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@

community consensus. Murph9000 (talk

) 07:05, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@Murph9000: Am not supporting any government or any religion, I am try wikipedia to state correct information. Otherwise this page or whole site will be blocked in the region Msjkus (talk) 07:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@Msjkus: I have clearly explained the basis of my rejection, the policies involved, and how any future changes might be made. Wikipedia does not change or censor content based on threats of blocks or actual blocks. See also Wikipedia:No legal threats, before that line is crossed. As far as I am concerned, this matter is closed unless a compelling case is made strictly on the basis of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Murph9000 (talk) 07:43, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article, in a manner that does not comply with Wikipedia's policies. Editors are encouraged to use neutral mechanisms for requesting outside input (e.g. a "request for comment", a third opinion or other noticeboard post, or neutral criteria: "pinging all editors who have edited this page in the last 48 hours"). If someone has asked you to provide your opinion here, examine the arguments, not the editors who have made them. Reminder: disputes are resolved by consensus, not by majority vote.

Please remove Ghulam Ahmed name from this section.He is not the mujaddid.M naeem22 (talk) 07:26, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is not a mujaddid, instead he has claimed to be sharing prophet-hood with Muhammd SAW (the only last prophet as per Quran). He is declared as non-muslim. Ksraza1 (talk) 07:32, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@

Wikipedia:Sock puppetry policy. Any further requests in the immediate future, which do not respect Wikipedia policies and guidelines, are likely to be removed without reply. Murph9000 (talk

) 07:43, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@Murph9000: Am spreading word for help from other people regarding this.

so if anyone have something that can satisfy your criteria, they can mention here.

Otherwise the request will be forwarded to Pakistan_Telecommunication_Authority Msjkus (talk) 11:57, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Canvassing. As for the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority, they have absolutely no authority or control over Wikipedia content, and are not relevant to this matter. Any similar requests received directly from them will also be similarly rejected. Contact them if you want to, but it will not change Wikipedia policies. Be very careful of the Wikipedia:No legal threats policy, as this latest threat is getting very close to the line. Murph9000 (talk) 12:13, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

@

Muslim for authenticity. Thanks. Msjkus (talk

) 15:49, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

If I could just chime in here-- not going to happen.

Wikipedia is not censored-- not to appease you, the Pakistan Telecommunications Authority, or anyone else. The government of Pakistan persecutes Ahmadi Muslims and enforces ridiculous blasphemy laws; Wikipedia does not. PepperBeast (talk)

20:40, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Correct

Ahmadi and is Non-Muslim. Again please correct the contents of article. Thanks Msjkus (talk

) 05:36, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Please stop

reliable sources

for a controversial change to sourced content.

If you are going to present a properly sourced case for change, please ensure that it does not unnecessarily repeat any rejected arguments made on this talk page over the extensive history of this issue (the archives go back to 2006 on this). Sources which only demonstrate that there is opposition to this may not be sufficient to have the content removed, but might generate additional content to note any controversy or opposition to the content. If such a case is made, please be aware that it will come under heavy scrutiny due to the history of this article, and may take weeks or even months to establish a change in consensus (and the article content will not be changed until that process is complete). Please either work offline, or use your personal sandbox if you are going to work on this, to avoid disrupting this talk page; then you can present your completed case for change here.

This change will not be made without a valid case being made, scrutinised, and accepted by community consensus. If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, you may be blocked from editing.

Murph9000 (talk) 07:27, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Not happening. We don't take opinions from Catholics on whether they think Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians. We don't poll Mahayana Buddhists on whether Zen Buddhists count. If Ahmadiyya Muslims consider themselves Muslims and reliable sources say that they are Muslims, it's not up to Sunnis (or the government of Pakistan, or me or you) to say otherwise, at least not on Wikipedia. If you have nothing else to contribute, then this discussion has reached its conclusion. PepperBeast (talk) 07:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mirza Ahmed Qadyani is not Mujadid even he is not Muslim kindly remove his name from list. Waleedali 66 (talk) 10:10, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

 Not done and won't be done. Please see long discussion above - Arjayay (talk) 14:58, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad should not be in the list. He is not from the Sunni mainstream. He is an Ahmadi ( a heretic sect of Islam). 103.1.71.131 (talk) 14:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Izno (talk) 16:27, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Why is Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani on this list, he is no Mujaddid read the conditions that one must fulfill to be a Mujaddid of the century. It is not necessary that a Mujaddid be from the Ahle-Bayt as claimed by the Shias and other sects. It is not necessary that a Mujaddid be a Mujtahid. What is absolutely necessary is that he be a Sunni with correct beliefs according to the Ahle-Sunnah wa Jamah. He be profound Aalim of Deen. He be a Master and embodiment of most of the Sciences of Knowledge. He be an outstanding Scholar of his time. His services for the Deen be purely for the pleasure of Allah and His Rasool and not for greed of wealth and other worldly gain. He be fearless of opposition and rulers of his time. He will not act or give verdicts to please any person besides Allah and His Rasool. He will not fear speaking or advocating Truth in all circumstances. He will not use Religion to gain worldly fame. He will be a very pious and Allah fearing person. He will perfect mixture of the Shari'ah and Tari'qah. He will not tolerate any opposition to the Shari'ah. And according to 'Allama Imam Isma'il Haqqee, it is necessary for a Mujaddid that both in the last portion of the century he was born in and the beginning of the century he passes away in, he be famous and be a fountain and focal authority of religion for the Ulama of his time. It is also necessary for a Mujaddid that the Scholars (Ulama) of his time observe, benefit and be convinced of his impeccable lifestyle and profound knowledge and hence acknowledge and announce in public that he is a Mujaddid. Therefore it is important that a Mujaddid be a perfect embodiment and Alim of both the external (Shari'ah) and internal (Spiritual) sciences of Knowledge promoting the protecting the Sunnah and fighting and destroying Bid'ah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.43.151.188 (talk) 18:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC) :

Please see the extensive discussion of the subject above PepperBeast (talk) 21:29, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Mujaddid. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110527065014/http://www.iqra.net/articles/al-haddad.html to http://www.iqra.net/articles/al-haddad.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120426051106/http://www.almukhtarbooks.com/?p=63 to http://www.almukhtarbooks.com/?p=63

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018.

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:59, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Mujaddid. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040902170858/http://www.islamic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Biographies/ibn_hajar.htm to http://www.islamic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Biographies/ibn_hajar.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018.

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:55, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Abul 'Ala Maududi Abul A'la Maududi is claimed by many to be a fourteenth century Mujaddid. Please add him to the list under "Fourteenth Century (November 21, 1979)". (Reference: https://books.google.ca/books?id=I07ykFUoKTUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false, "Mawdudi and the Making of Islamic Revivalism" by Seyyed Vali Reza Nasr, page 115). Jaansislam (talk) 02:37, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

•  Not done It would appear that you may have made your own interpretation of the book as I could not find what you were referencing on your link. Addicted4517 (talk) 04:09, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

NawaazAhmad (talk) 11:00, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Ahmad raza and Mirza Qadyani are not mujjadid

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a

reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk

) 11:10, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2018

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The person Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908)[29][nb 1] has been listed as Muslim. This is not correct as he was a follower of Qadianism. A new religion that he founded and all the main schools of Islam Sunni and Shia reject. Please, can you remove this as priority. 82.20.117.34 (talk) 10:12, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide

reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk

) 13:26, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2019

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

hii, kindly remove qadyani and kulaini from this list and add deobandi and salafi mujaddis too NawaazAhmad (talk) 09:12, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide

reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DBigXrayᗙ

10:02, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2019

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please remove Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from this list because he is not even a Muslim he make his own religion and relate it to Islam but he and his followers are considered as non muslims in All muslim countries and Courts The Most above ranked Muslim A 'Imam e Kabah' Decleared them as non muslim and all muslims support him because Mirza Ahmed Make his own Religion and break the rules of Islam.. Allah Almight Said "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and khātim of the prophets,"(Al Quran) so Mirza Ahmad Decleared himself as prophet so breaks the islamic rules and he tryed to change and wrong Islam so he is not a Mujaddid ... You can get help from Muslim Panels to Remove his name I request you to remove his name ASAP... UsmanpakAli (talk) 13:23, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Not done. Not going to be done. This has been discussed extensively. PepperBeast (talk) 23:14, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908) is a Kafir according to Islamic scholars. How can he be a Mujaddid? How nonsense is this? For reference: 1. https://islamqa.info/en/answers/4060/qadianiyyah-in-the-light-of-islam 2. https://islamqa.info/en/answers/45525/what-is-the-qadiani-ahmadiyyah-sect-is-it-permissible-for-a-muslim-to-marry-one-of-them Saimum 140128 (talk) 02:30, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not entirely clear what you're asking to be done, but islamqa is hardly a reliable source. PepperBeast (talk) 03:20, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908)^{[1][nb 1]} this has to be removed as Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a Cheat and his claim ae falsehood. Syed1789 (talk) 16:43, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:24, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Remove the ahmadiyya guy, its false 2603:3001:1FA5:8000:DCA7:D0E8:127A:9B81 (talk) 20:25, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Minecrafter0271 (talk) 20:29, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Muhammad al-Qahtani, the proclaimed Mahdi of the grand mosque seizure. The grand mosque seizure occurred on the first day of the 1400th Islamic year, of which scholars such as Bernard Haykel, Thomas Hegghammer, and Stephane Lacroix cite as a probable deliberate attempt to link him with the tradition. Source: "Rejectionist Islamism in Saudi Arabia: The Story of Juhayman Al-ʿutaybi Revisited (https://doi.org/10.1017/S0020743807002553)

Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab has been called a mujaddid by seemingly all of his followers. Maryam Jameelah wrote in "Islam in Theory and Practice", stated "Shaikh Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab proved himself a Mujaddid of the first rank and a worthy successor of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Ibn Taimiya." This was quoted by Jamal al Din M. Zarabozo in "The Life, Teachings, and Influence of Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahaab", published by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's very own Ministry of Islamic Affairs. Simon Ross Valentine writes "A small number of tribesmen accepted him as Sheikh-ul-Islam and mujaddid, leader of Islam and a renewer of the faith" in "Force and Fanaticism Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia and Beyond". Abdulaziz bin Baz the former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, held this position as well as Shiraz Maher writes "The former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, 'Abd al-'Aziz bin Baz, described Wahhab as a mujaddid (reviver of the faith)" (Salafi-jihadism: The History of an Idea).

Abdulaziz bin Baz and Nasiruddin al Albani (the famous hadith specialist). Abdul Malik Mujahid, the owner of Dar us Salam publications wrote "There is no doubt that Sheikh Ibn Baz was the mujaddid of his age. I once asked Maulana Safi-ur-Rehman Mubarakpuri, the compiler of The Sealed Nectar, who he considered the mujaddid of the century. He replied that there could be more than one mujaddid in every century. He further said that there were two mujaddids in the century we were talking about - Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Baz and Allama Nasiruddin Al-Bani, the late Albanian scholar." ("Golden Stories of Accepted Prayers", Dar us Salam publications). Abdulaziz bin Baz himself declared Nasiruddin al Albani as the mujaddid of this age https://www.alalbani.info/alalbany_eng_038.php

Abdullah Azzam, Thomas Hegghammer writes in "The Caravan: Abdallah Azzam and the Rise of Global Jihad", "Some have even considered Azzam a mujaddid - renewer - a highly prestigious epithet in the Islamic tradition reserved for the person in a given century who has done the most to revive Islam."

Osama bin Laden: Gabriel Weimann writes "The severe conflict within the Saudi jihadist groups led to the online production of the Saudi scholar Abu Jandal al Azdi's 460 page book, Osama bin Laden: Mujaddid al-zaman wa-qahir al-Amrikan (Osama bin Laden: The reformer of our times and defeater of the Americans). The book attempted to raise bin Laden to a new level of a major reformer or reviver, a status bestowed on only a select few scholars." (Terrorism in Cyberspace: The Next Generation). This book was republished on the foremost Salafi-Jihadi library Minbar at Tawheed (https://www.ilmway.com/site/maqdis/MS_1632.html)

As a suggestion, perhaps the article should be divided into Sunni claimants, Shia claimants, and Other sect claimants (such as the controversial Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and other Islam-inspired traditions like Yezidi, Druze, Bahai, Nation of Islam, etc), similar to how List of messiah claimants is split into Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. On the issue of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, I think linking to [[Ahmadiyya and other faiths#Other Muslims] is probable more relevant than the persecution of Ahmadis page, because the relevant topic is not political actions by Muslims against Ahmadis but theological beliefs of Muslims.

It should probably also be noted in the article that contrary to a "great man"-ish reading of the hadith, a number of mainstream orthodox Muslim scholars, such as al Dhahabi, ibn Kathir, and ibn Hajar write that the word "someone" can be plural, indicating that a group of people can function as a mujaddid. These opinions can be read (along with agreeing views from less mainstream scholars) at https://islamqa.info/en/answers/153535/the-hadith-at-the-beginning-of-every-century-allah-will-send-to-this-ummah-someone-who-will-renew-its-religious-understanding

Information on the Shia understanding of mujaddid, as well as the hadith in their own source should be stated, as Abu Dawud is a Sunni book. I myself am not really certain if Shias have such a hadith, or if some Shias have merely "Shi'ified" the Sunni practice of ascribing great men to a 100 year timetable without a basis in their own tradition.

I find it likely that as well Ahmad bin Hanbal, Muhammad al Fatih, a number of Ottoman/Mughal leaders, Ismail I of Safawid Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini, Sayyid Qutb, Muhammad Ismail Bukhari, Hassan al Banna, ibn Khaldun, have also been heralded as mujaddids, but sources will need to be found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:101B:CA61:28BD:1777:CA40:6031 (talk) 17:29, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Munir Ahmad Azim of Mauritius has claimed him as Mujaddid of 15th Century Ssh.faisal (talk) 20:02, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Entirely Wrong Umair130 (talk) 15:27, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Why was imam ahmed raza khan taken off this list? Mhdimran0205 (talk) 13:36, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Qadiri just do research and update the list Mushahidrazvi (talk) 05:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

He was born on 1835 so he doesn't belong to the last century. --Kapokbirdnotflying (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kapokbirdnotflying: Yes he does. The last century (fourteenth) began in 1882 and ended in 1979. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad claimed to be the Mujaddid precisely in 1882. Moreover, the source I provided specifically states that he claimed to be the Mujaddid "on the eve of the fourteenth century A.H." which started in November 1882, something which is confirmed by Ahmadiyya sources as well. I think the confusion may stem from the translation of the hadith as "end of every hundred years" whereas the Arabic ra's kulli miy'ati sanatin doesn't neccessarily mean "end" but simply the 'turn (literally "head") of every century' which can encompass a period comprising the final years of one century and the incipient years of another. As for Dr Isar, I didn't add that, it was just carried through within the revert. I agree it needs a source and have therefore left it out. -- Sirius86 19:36, 06 October 2016 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

According to several sunni sources Mawlana Ashraf Ali Thanwi was a mujaddid of 19th century. Please update it. Ashirshah7 (talk) 04:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Which sources? – Thjarkur (talk) 13:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

He was the mujaddid of 20th century, I don't see his name here. It's actually unfair to a large group of muslims Ahmadmuhammadsaad (talk) 23:06, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed Zuber Niyargar (talk) 21:35, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed show his name Mushahidrazvi (talk) 05:48, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Please show his name as Mujaddid of 14th century Hijri. Omitting his name, Indeed, is unfair to majority of sunni Muslims. He was unanimously accepted Mujaddid by all sunni scholars of Arab & Ajam. Qasim-ul-Qadiri (talk) 06:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Dear Admin, I want to make an edit about Imam Ahmad Raza Khan R.A. He was a mujadid according to several sources and it's not fair to have his name on the list. I dont know if that's due to bias or what, i'll request you to study from an unbiased source. There are several great rulings by him which you can study to judge for yourself that indeed he was a mujadid.

JazakAllah Ahmadmuhammadsaad (talk) 00:27, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jack Frost (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Qadiri just do research and update the list if you didn't. Greatest reviver of Islam in that Century, Zuber Niyargar (talk) 21:33, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Qadiri just do research and update the list Mushahidrazvi (talk) 05:52, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Abul ala maududi.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:09, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Ahmad Raza Khan was the mujaddid of 14 century considered by majority of scholars. It's a great disappointment for Muslims that his name was removed from the list mujaddid in this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zenqadri (talk • contribs) 03:25, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

MUHAMMAD touseef Ahmad (talk) 07:38, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
{{Fourteenth Century (November 21, 1979)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Seagull123 Φ 17:31, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

This is something accepted on both sides of the sunni/shia spectrum. Please remove him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.199.31 (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is not a mujaddid the information is wrong and strictly against the religion islam hi is not even a muslim so please remove him form this list Mian Muhammad hayat (talk) 11:24, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Already mentioned in the linked note – Thjarkur (talk) 11:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

103.112.13.18 (talk) 10:26, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. >>BEANS X2t 13:49, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi. Mujaddid is a sunni hadith and concept. Hence why is Mulla Sadra on here?

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Ashraf Ali Thanvi.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:28, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

@

No, I don't agree. The controversy surrounding Ahmadiyya Islam and the persecution of Admadis is discussed in some detail over at the Ahmadiyya page. It is tangential to the subject of *this* page. PepperBeast (talk) 03:50, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, well there are those that don't recognize his sect as being Muslim (as found in the above citations). Therefore, per

Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs}

) 02:16, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The idea that "some people" "reject" Ahmadis' self-identity as Muslims is really irrelevant Wikipedia:Religion#Religious_"majority"Wikipedia:Religion#Religious_"majority"_does_not_rule PepperBeast (talk) 22:08, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

@Pepperbeast: Wikipedia:Religion is not a policy, rather, it is a failed proposal. The top of the page reads "This is a failed proposal." On the contrary, I have cited valid policies to back up my edits, including:

• The fact that it is cited by three
  WP:BALANCE
  states: "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint."
• Wikipedia is not censored
  : "Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive‍—‌even exceedingly so. Attempting to ensure that articles and images will be acceptable to all readers, or will adhere to general social or religious norms, is incompatible with the purposes of an encyclopedia."
• WP:RNPOV
  : "Some adherents of a religion might object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith because in their view such analysis discriminates against their religious beliefs. Their point of view can be mentioned if it can be documented by relevant, reliable sources, yet note that there is no contradiction."

I am not pushing any point of view. I am simply summarizing reliable sources that state that the sect he founded is rejected due to a specific belief. My edits do not violate any policies to my knowledge. –

Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs}

) 22:27, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

If you want to make those arguments, do it over at Ahmadiyya. We don't re-hash whether Catholics think Mormons are Christians or the fact that some people want to call Islam a political ideology rather than a religion every time we mention a religious figure. And we're not using this page to re-hash arguments about which Muslims are "real" Muslims. And as far as Wikipedia is concerned, it's a done deal [[3]]. Stop it. PepperBeast (talk) 22:36, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not making any arguments in the article, because

Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs}

) 22:41, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

No, you haven't. You are still inserting material that is outside the scope of this article. The opinions you are trying to insert are covered at Persecution of Ahmadis.PepperBeast (talk) 00:04, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Again, my edits do not violate any policies to my knowledge. –

Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs}

) 02:23, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

They violate basic common sense. The point of refs if to support the content of the article, not to undermine it and introduce contradiction. PepperBeast (talk) 20:39, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Please take a look at

Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs}

) 00:55, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

In all across Muslim world, this man is mirza ghulam ahmad is considered as infidel. Please remove his name from list Umair130 (talk) 15:29, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add Muhammad Tahir-Ul-Qadri in the Mujaddid list. He is considered as a mujaddid by many scholars from all over the world. Reference:

https://tehreek.org/dr-tahir-ul-qadri-suddenly-started-to-be-called-himself-as-shaykh-ul-islam-whereas-no-one-gave-him-this-title/ 39.52.228.115 (talk) 14:28, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: They must be notable enough for a wikipedia article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:33, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Two points for removal of "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad" entry from the list of Mujjadid.
For the briefing,

1. It is one thing for the scholarly circles to recognize anyone a Mujaddid, compare that to someone making a claim for himself to be a Mujaddid. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is from the latter (reference in link below).
Ref:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_of_Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad

2. Constitution of Pakistan amendment - where Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is classifed a non-Muslim and his followers also non-Muslims.
Ref:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_Constitution_of_Pakistan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinance_XX

The references used to support this claim within the article are 1. Oriental Observations by Mr.Rippin, Andrew & 2. Ahmadiyya Muslim website (AlIslam.org) - both are categorically non-Muslim sources.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad made claims upon himself of the following (references in below link)

One which clearly puts him off the Traditional Muslim sphere is the claim of "The second advent of Muhammad", this is an alien belief to Traditional Muslims - Muslims do not believe in second advent of Muhammad.

Refer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_of_Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad

Links supporting the claim that Ahmadiyya & Mirza Ghulam Ahmad are non-Muslims, and why Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is an odd-entry to the list

1. http://www.dawn.com/news/1057427
2. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raza-habib-raja/ahmadiyya-muslims_b_8099324.html
3. http://www.irshad.org/qadianism/differ.php

This needs to be brought to urgent attention of the respectable editors on wikipedia for speedy removal of the entry of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from the list.

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. 🔯 Sir Joseph ^🍸(talk) 20:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

[addendum]
In the list of Mujaddids , remove the name 'Mirza Ghulam Ahmad' - There reason why to remove has been provided above.

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

As other users have stated Mirza Ghulams shouldn't be here as he represents a very small form of Islam which claims he is a prophet and not a mujaddid. First of all the last source.^[1] shouldn't be there as it links to a website that has nothing to do with Mirza Ghulam being a mujadid. I couldn't say anything about the other source as I don't have the book. However I think someone should verify it.

On Mirza Ghulams real wiki page I looked at the sources on the claim that he is a mujadid and saw this source which states^[2] that he claims to be a mujadid. The problem is that all these people on this list never claimed to be a mujadid. A mujadid[4], as stated in this article, is something historians determine who is after they die.

Also, this list is for Sunni scholars as term mujaddid is a Sunni term and the Shias have a similar concept which is their 12 imams. This is why there are no Shia scholars as this list as this is a Sunni concept. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed being here is factually wrong because he isn't Sunni.

Conclusion: I personally mean it should be deleted and that the claim of him being a mujadid should be on his main wiki page. However, I have seen that another admin has denied editing this entry. If these reasons cannot convince an admin, please change it to the following.

   Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908) (Self-proclaimed and heavily disputed)

I think I have explained very thoroughly why this edit is needed at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamza.abd (talk • contribs)

I think you failed to notice that the section is titled "List of claimants and POTENTIAL Mujaddids". Mirza Gulam Ahmad claims to be a mujaddid therefore fits the description. Just because he is not considered one by Sunni Islam does not mean he should be removed from the list or labeled as "self proclaimed and heavily disputed". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamzahn (talk • contribs)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Edit requests are intended only for uncontroversial maintenance or for edits already supported by a clear consensus of editors. Edit requests are not a form of dispute resolution. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 21:55, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Qadiri just do research and update the list Mushahidrazvi (talk) 05:54, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmed Raza Khan Qadiri great mujaddid just do research and update the list Mushahidrazvi (talk) 05:56, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Ibn Taymiyyah is known by a large majority of Muslims as a anthropomorphist. Therefore Muslims regard him as a blasphemer(WRONG).^[1]

how can a person is blasphemer when he is a mujadid and done a great work in the history of Islam please remove blasphemer word from it Yaseen551 (talk) 09:52, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

This edit request to Mujaddid has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

MUJADID (renewal) does not mean add new to islam or had a power to add or subtract but mujadid is who practice those thing which muslims forgot the practice or leave it for some reason. the doctrine will be same as the time of prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h was practices Yaseen558 (talk) 07:00, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 07:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)