Talk:Rhea Seddon

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This review is

transcluded from Talk:Rhea Seddon/GA1

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Reviewer: GhostRiver (talk · contribs) 17:51, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! I'll be reviewing this article to help reduce the good article nomination backlog and to gain points in the

]

Infobox and lede

Early life and education

• "née Dann" should be in parentheses

  ? Why? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Unless her younger sister is dead, I don't think that should be in the past tense; if there's a year of birth, then could be phrased as "Her younger sister Louise was born TKTK"

  The whole article is in the past tense. She was born in 1950, but I've omitted dates of birth for non-notable relatives. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Seddon gives not just the dates, but the actual times of birth as well. I tried this with my mother, and asked for the times of birth of myself and my sibling and she knew! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:02, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "Science was not taught by the nuns at St Rose until the Sputnik crisis made teaching science a national priority" → "The nuns at St Rose did not teach science until the Sputnik crisis made scientific education a national priority."

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "and science became one of Seddon's subjects in the seventh grade" → "and Seddon began studying the subject in the seventh grade."

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• No comma needed after "Seddon worked in her office one summer"

  Y Deleted.

• "Another friend of the family, Florence Ridley, a professor" → "Florence Ridley, another fiend of the family and a professor"

  That won't work. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Why not? — GhostRiver 21:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Creates one of those annoying ambiguities: implies that both were professors as well as friends of the family. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:00, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "where she joined the Sigma Kappa sorority"

  Y added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "summer after her freshman year"

  Y added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "and decided" → "where she decided"

  Y added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "bachelor of arts" → "Bachelor of Arts"

  Y This is not in the MOS. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It's consistent with our article on the subject and with pretty much every piece of writing that lists someone's degrees. — GhostRiver 21:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Capitalised. Left a note on the MOS talk page. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:00, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "entered it" → "matriculated"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "doctor of medicine" → "Doctor of Medicine"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "surgery doctor" or "surgeon"?

  Retained as it is, per Seddon. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "three years of residency"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "where she was the only woman"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• How did she serve in the ER if this wasn't allowed by the residency?

  They are always short staffed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NASA

• I don't love this section just being called "NASA", can it be expanded to "NASA career"?

  Y Changed as suggested.

Selection

• "(NASA) NASA"

  Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "For the first time, women were encouraged to apply." → "It was the first time that women were encouraged to apply."

  ? Why? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Better flow. — GhostRiver 21:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Y Very well. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:57, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• It would make more sense for the inches to be rendered in centimeters than millimeters

• Y It should have been the default. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• And to the point, something like "she was two inches above the 60-inch minimum" flows better and is easier to understand

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• No comma after "She flew down to Houston International Airport"

  Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "in nutrition in surgery patients" → "in the nutrition of surgery patients"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "had been selected by NASA."

  Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Training

• "until they finished their training and evaluation"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• No comma after "trouble climbing into the aircraft"

  Y Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I think "and with ill-fitting parachutes" → "and with wearing parachutes"; we already know the fit will be poor because her size has been mentioned

  No, because she could still wear a parachute harness that didn't fit properly. It is just that she might have fallen out when the parachute opened. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• No comma after "but Seddon was never considered for this"

  Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• First sentence of the second paragraph (about the town house) is very long and could probably be split in two

  Y Split sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comma after "As with earlier astronaut groups"

  Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "to specialise in" → "in which they specialised"

  Don't like that form. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, you can't end a sentence with a preposition. — GhostRiver 21:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Y Sure you can. See WP:Lies Miss Snodgrass told you. Re-worded anyway. Hawkeye7 (discuss)

• the he first ?

  Y deleted stray word. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The long parenthetical in the third paragraph might be better served as a footnote

  Y Removed parentheses. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "got to choose" → "was allowed to choose"

  Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Commas instead of parentheses around "who retained her maiden name"

  Parentheses are better than parenthetical commas. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Split sentence after "preparation for the upcoming STS-2 mission"

  Y Split sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "Seddon soon fell pregnant, and their first child, a boy they named Paul Seddon Gibson after Gibson's father, was born in July 1982." → "Seddon's first child was born in July 1982. He was named Paul Seddon Gibson after his paternal grandfather."

  Y Don't see the benefit but changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• (Gibson already had one child, a daughter called Julie, from his first marriage.) Trivia

  We keep track of the family members. It is important to note the number of children that she was caring for. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• for treatment. He soon responded to treatment Repetitive phrasing

  Y reworded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Space flights

• No comma after the crew were kept together

  Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• to operate a bone saw to help fix repetitive preposition

  Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Second O in Oval Office should be capitalized per our article on it

  Y Capitalised. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Saying the family was represented by Gibson feels very patriarchal.
• The anecdote about Mike Smith's flight suit reads as trivia.

  Adds a personal connection to the disaster. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "While she waited for her Spacelab Life Sciences mission to be scheduled"

  Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "another child, and that the SLS-1 mission" is technically grammatically correct if you're saying "she was hoping that the SLS-1 mission", but that doesn't feel like what you're trying to say

  Y Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• It was regarded as a plum job, and a good way to see how the directorate was managed.
  MOS:WEASEL

  Y Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Still don't like the parentheses

  Y Replaced. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Missing comma in "June 5, 1991"

  Y Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All points addressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Later life

• Fine

Awards and honors

• Fine

References

• Fine

General comments

@GhostRiver: Any progress on this? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:38, 1 April 2022 (UTC) @GhostRiver: Can we close this now? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:10, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7 I have been in a depressive episode caused by my bipolar disorder. I have left more comments. — GhostRiver 21:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you are feeling better. I saw that you were active, and thought that you had forgotten this review. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:18, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostRiver: I think all issues have been addressed now. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:00, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostRiver: Can we close this now? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:57, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostRiver: Can we close this now? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:39, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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This review is

transcluded from Talk:Rhea Seddon/GA2

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Reviewer: Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs) 04:40, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm reviewing this abandoned article for the June backlog drive. Sorry that you've had to resubmit it; it's obvious that you've worked hard on this article, especially during its first GAC. Kuddos for doing your part to close part of the gender gap with such an important individual. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:40, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

Nice job with this bio about an important individual.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (

   lists

   ):

   The prose is mostly good, adequate enough for a GA. If you were to take this bio farther and bring it to FAC (which I highly suggest that you do), you should get another copyedit to further improve the prose. Some of the language is a bit archaic; for example, See below for grammar issues that I think you need to take care of before I pass this bio to GA and some that are just suggetions and have no bearing on this GAN.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (

   reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism

   ):

   See below for my comments about your refs.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   I think that you include too much information; see below for details.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   You do a good job at avoiding a peacock-y and/or puffer-y tone.

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Has one main editor; no edit wars.

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   I have problems with the image of Seddon and Gibson with their newborn baby, for similar reasons as my problem about including their children's name as stated below. Personally, I think you should remove it, although I leave that up to you.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   I know this has been a long process, but you're really close. Once you make the changes I suggest (or give me good reasons to not), I will pass this important bio to GA. Good luck!

Things to do before promotion to GA:

As I state above, I think that you include information in this article that doesn't belong in an encyclopedic article. For example, while Seddon's marriage is important and should be mentioned (including that they were the first astronaut couple), the venues of her wedding and reception aren't important. Plus, that gets into "If we were talking about a man's marriage, would we mention his venues?" This is something I'm a little sensitive about; I think that every time we write bios about women, we need to consider gender gap issues.

I also have problems with the next paragraph in this section. I think you should mention the years that her children were born and her first son's medical emergency, but not their names, as per

.

Prose: I think that your paragraphs are a bit long; I think you should break them up some. I could make some suggestions, and I can if you want me to, but I leave how to do that up to you.

Suggestions that have no bearing on this GAN:

Refs: Two things about your refs. 30 out 55 of your refs, or over 1/2, are Seddon's memoir. That could be a problem, as per

, which I've always interpreted as advising against using memoirs/autobiographies as sources. I understand that's debateable, and according to the policy, you can use sources written by experts and the writer of a memoir is the ultimate expert about their life. I also think that you're probably going to have to defend using it so much; I suggest that you argue that without it, the bio wouldn't be as comprehensive as it is. I've used memoirs and autobiograhies before, but I try to support the information taken from them with other sources, which you may not be able to do. If you take this bio further, you'd have to defend your choice of using Seddon's memoir.

I think that the prose reads unencyclopedic in places. I think it's fine for a GA, but if you move forward with this bio, you should get a couple of editors to copyedit it. For now, I'll give you one example: the end of the third paragraph of the "Space flights" section; I'd remove the sentence She also fell pregnant again and state that in March 1989, her second child was born without stating his name, although I think it's okay if you state that he was named after his father. I agree with the previous GA reviewer about that, and I appreciate that you changed the first instance of it even though you weren't given an explanation about why, so I'll explain my reasoning: the offending phrase is a British colloquialism and not something American English speakers use. Since this is a bio about an American, I think you should avoid the British colloquialism, even though it's technically grammatically correct. I'm sure there are other instances of this, which is why you should ask for other eyes to take a look at it.

Responses

• First of all, thank you for taking the time to review this article. I thought you were on a Wiki-break; welcome back!

• This article is the last of four in a series, after
  Kathryn Sullivan
  . I am undecided as to whether to take them to FAC.
• With reference to marriages, in the Australian Dictionary of Biography, the pro forma is for marriages of every subject are included, if available, along with the location and religious forms. So I include this for for all male biographies, if available.

• As for the picture of Seddon with the baby, I was actually trying to find one of her with Hoot. It's the only image in the article that Seddon includes in her book (on p. 142) and is on her web page too [1].

• I the case of the children, I generally include names for prospographical purposes but not birthdates. I was caught out once with someone born in 1918; I presumed that she would be a hundred years old and not still alive. She was a hundred years old, but very much alive an a reader of the Wikipedia. In the case of the oldest of Seddon's children, the birth date for is sourced from newspaper articles. As it happens, in her book Seddon records not just the dates of birth of her children, but the exact times. I thought this might be a doctor thing; hospitals use times of birth to record details about babies since they might not have names yet, and may have the same birth date. So I asked my mother if she could recall the time of my birth. She could; and that of my sister as well. So it might be a mum thing.
• The requirement for the prose to not close paraphrase the original means that I have to write it in my own voice, and often I don't recognise whether a phrase is British or American. (Adults like my parents use many more British idioms than my generation does because they didn't have access to American books or television growing up.) I've removed the offending sentence about falling pregnant, but if there are other British turns of phrase, let me know.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:23, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hawk, and thanks for the welcome. I was kind of on a Wikibreak, but it's summer and I finished grad school, so I'm making up for lost time. My final project in grad school was my thesis about Wikipedia, which I'm trying to make it more accessible to folks.

I'm good with your explanations; I think that much of my feedback was personal editoral choices and preferences, as well as differences in how we interpret policy. I still would like you to remove the info about Seddon's wedding and reception, but I won't make it a stipulation to pass this to GA. (There are other things I'd remove, but that's just me.) I think it's wonderful that you've been working on bios about female astronauts; keep up that good work! The garbage Seddon had to put up with, but her attitude was, "My astronaut job only takes 40-50 hours per week, so I have time to practice medicine and start a family." When did she sleep? So admirable.

Hey that's great! I finished my PhD years ago, but never got around to producing the more readable version for public consumption. You should be very proud. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:23, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone through the article for your Britishism, and get ahead and changed them myself because it saves time rather than list out all the instances and expect you to do the busywork of changing them.

Thanks for that. As an aside, an ill-fitting parachute harness is, as Hoot would put it, something certain to make a bad situation much worse, as you can fall out of the harness when the parachute opens. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:23, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A couple picky questions:

In the "Training" section, who's Diana Fire? There's no wikilink or description of who she is.

A fellow physician. Added this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:23, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the first sentence of fifth paragraph in "Space flights", what's a secondment?

Added a link. At the Hood we would have called it a TDY,

Anyway, that's it; I will promote to GA. Good luck and best regards, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:21, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to review. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:23, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]