Talk:Ric Ocasek

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Age?

The article states that Ric Ocasek was born March 23rd, 1949. It also states that he graduated from Maple Heights High School in 1963. If both of those dates are correct that means he graduated from High School a couple months after turning 14. I suggest that at least one of those dates must be wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle kursk (talk • contribs) 21:07, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There have been multiple edits over the last few days concerning age. (1946/1949) However the current edit still must be wrong. It states that he moved from Baltimore to Cleveland when he was 16 with his family. (1949+16=1965) It then states that he graduated from high school in Maple Heights (Cleveland) in 1963. How did he graduated from a high school two years before he moved to where the high school is. Either the listed birth age of 1949 is wrong, or the listed graduation year of 1963 is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle kursk (talk • contribs) 03:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's been an
WP:BLPPRIMARY. For a long time Benjamin Orr's year of birth was given as 1953, as was Tom Petty's. I guess the record companies didn't want their new wave acts to be just a few years younger than the Beatles. Piriczki (talk) 14:17, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply
]

Ok, thank you for the explanation. I went the "Talk" page route, instead of making any changes to the actual article because I wasn't sure of the facts. I had looked up the Wikipedia on various members of the Cars since it was in the news that they were being inducted to the Rock Hall. Glancing at the bio info, and the article for Ric Ocasek, I did a double take when I realized the numbers didn't add up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle kursk (talk • contribs) 00:27, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If there are
WP:SYNTH. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:34, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply
]
I've added the 1944 date as well based on CNN and USA Today giving his age as 74 today (May 3, 2018), but these may be based on the uncited 1944 date given in Wikipedia until about a half-hour ago.--Tenebrae (talk) 14:46, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Year of birth was not based on when he graduated high school. Piriczki (talk) 16:02, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When he attended high school is pretty relevant, I would say. He wasn't a child prodigy, so he didn't graduate in 1963 at the age of 14. Most likely he had been held back a year somewhere during his school years or started school a year later, and this is why he graduated in 1963 and not 1962. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.56.31.15 (talk • contribs) 14:38, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Piticzki. I didn't say it was. I was referring to the first comment in this section: "It states that he moved from Baltimore to Cleveland when he was 16 with his family. (1949+16=1965) It then states that he graduated from high school in Maple Heights (Cleveland) in 1963. How did he graduated from a high school two years before he moved to where the high school is." I'd also have to note that uncited "open secrets", i.e., rumors, aren't really RS. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:40, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a cut and paste from the Wikipedia guideline on Original Research. “This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards.” I clearly stated in my comments on “The Talk Page” that I didn’t post or edit anything in the actual wiki article. I was merely pointing out the mathematical impossibility of what was stated as fact in the wiki article. That way whoever published/edits the wiki article could address the error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle kursk (talk • contribs) 14:20, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if this helps or is worth citing, but Newsday says, "Ocasek, who is either 69 or 74 according to different sources....".--Tenebrae (talk) 20:42, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that could be used to cite "sources differ" in the article's first sentence. I just corrected an edit that took out 1944 and left only 1949 -- the editor's comment said "all credible sources" say 1949, but I just found another source -- the Associated Press -- which says 1944. Having now put that source as a cite in the article, there is the AP, CNN, and USA Today saying 1944, and a book compiling Billboard charts, AllMusic, and a NY Times "Chronicles" social announcement on the 1993 birth of Ocasek's son saying 1949. If it weren't for the NY Times blurb, I'd say all credible sources say 1944. But until there is a credible source that both puts the date at one year and rejects the other year, it will likely have to remain with both years. Jhw57 (talk) 16:25, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How could it be that sources differ? can't you just ask his age in an interview? or check his US birth certificate and that's it. He's a public person, that should be easy --†_JuanPa_† (talk) 22:12, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, people: 1949--> http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n88615966.html Gerntrash (talk) 01:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerntrash Ric would've been 15 years old in 1964 when his first child Christopher was born. Also this article states that he graduated high school in 1963. You can never graduate high school at the age of 14. 107.218.152.97 (talk) 01:44, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Cite your sources Gerntrash (talk) 01:47, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerntrash Mylife.com (even though it's a blacklisted website) claims Christopher was born in 1964 and the early life section says he graduated from Maple Heights High School in 1963. Like I said, you can't possibly finish high school at age 14. 107.218.152.97 (talk) 01:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Library of Congress source cites IMDB for his birth date, which is patently unreliable. If that's the best you have for 70, there's not much of a case for it. Nohomersryan (talk) 01:50, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"even though it's a blacklisted website" - So... it's blacklisted. MEaning it can't be used. Gerntrash (talk) 01:54, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The Library of Congress source cites IMDB ..." It ALSO cites "His This side of paradise, c1986:t.p. (Ric Ocasek)" Gerntrash (talk) 01:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another source I found myheritage.com also confirms 1964 as the year of birth of Ric's first son Christopher, meaning that Ric was clearly born in 1944 and not 1949. The Christopher Otcasek listed as a 1959 birth on that website can't be his son, he would've been too young to become a father. 107.218.152.97 (talk) 02:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Baltimore Sun [1] says 1949. Gerntrash (talk) 02:11, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nohomersryan said "You mean This Side of Paradise?" No. The LOC says "His" for authorship. He published a book of lyrics and poetry with the title "This Side of Paradise," not the album. The "t.p." in the record means "Title Page". Gerntrash (talk) 02:17, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ok, that makes more sense. I couldn't find a copy of it anywhere, so I can't corroborate that part, but the fact that they explicitly cite IMDb and include its birth date doesn't fill me with ease. Also, Baltimore Sun are now saying 75. Nohomersryan (talk) 02:21, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The cars. (2001). In P. Hardy, The Faber companion to 20th century popular music (3rd ed.). London, UK: Faber and Faber Ltd. states: "Ric Ocasek, b. Richard Otcasek, 23 March 1949, Baltimore, Maryland, USA..." Gerntrash (talk) 02:27, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • And in Rock N Roll Gold Rush: A Singles Un-Cyclopedia, Benjamin Orr is described as being born in 1953. But that might be 5 years too generous. Say, what's the difference between 1944 and 1949 again? Nohomersryan (talk) 02:37, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The New York Times in Chronicle: Honors for belafonte and poitier paulina porizkova's a mother what if they gave two dance evenings and 6% of the city showed up? (1993, Nov 17). New York Times (1923-Current File) cites Ocasek as 44 years old on Nov 17, 1993. That makes his birth date 1949. So, The New York Times, The Library of Congress, The Baltimore Sun, and The Faber companion to 20th century popular music, among other sources, list his birth year as 1949. Gerntrash (talk) 02:39, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The same NY Times and Baltimore Sun that just published obituaries calling him 75? It seems pretty obvious he was just cited as being born in 1949 because it was widely circulated inaccurate information. Now that police have stepped in to confirm his death, there's no real fudging he can do about it. Nohomersryan (talk) 02:42, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

From The Standard; Warrnambool, Vic. [Warrnambool, Vic] 23 Mar 2015: p. 10. : "Ric Ocasek: US singer-producer, The Cars (1949)" Gerntrash (talk) 02:47, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nohomersryan said: "Now that police have stepped in to confirm his death" - You did not cite a police report. They said he is dead. They didn't say when he was born. Gerntrash (talk) 02:49, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Former Cars front man Ocasek was born Richard Otcasek in 1949 in Baltimore. Ocasek was part of a strict Catholic family who lived in Baltimore until 1965, moving to Cleveland when Ric was 16." From: Croft, Clare. "Baltimore Rocks (... and Raps ... and Scats) ; Find Out which Musicians Once Called Charm City Home.; Music & Nightlife: BALTIMORESUN.COM Edition]." The Sun, Aug 15, 2005, pp. 1. Gerntrash (talk) 02:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC) [reply]

  • We can sit here all day posting sources that say 1949. I don't think it's in dispute he was referred to as that. However, with his high school graduation being 1963, and the fact that police identification (seemingly) has him as 75, it seems pretty obvious he did what Benjamin Orr did and lopped 4-5 years off his age (go on, search for sources saying Orr was born in 1953. There are tons!). Since you aren't responding to other comments, or acknowledging the new sources saying 1944, I don't really see the need to continue this impasse for now, unless someone else wants to step in. Nohomersryan (talk) 02:53, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The New York City police department said officers responding to a 911 call found the 75-year-old Ocasek at about 4 p.m. on Sunday. They said there was no sign of foul play and that the medical examiner was to determine a cause of death. - from AP, which, to my reading, makes it sound like the age comes from the NYPD. Nohomersryan (talk) 02:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That does not say the age came from the NYPD. Furthermore, if he moved to Cleveland when he was 16 in 1965, that makes his birth year 1949. Six reliable sources cited. Gerntrash (talk) 03:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Between multiple sources citing his first son being born in 1964, high school graduation in 1963, and the fact that musicians lying about age to support a specific persona is/was fairly commonplace, it seems fairly obvious what's going on here. Leaving both dates up until reliable sources appear makes sense though. ExtremeSquared (talk) 05:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, that is
WP:SYN. DOB tagged as needing a reliable source and current date as dubious with reasoning and citation. Toddst1 (talk) 12:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply
]

That is correct. Online copies of his high school yearbooks, excluding senior yearbook, are available to see on Classmates. SN 16 September 2019 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.56.31.15 (talk) 14:40, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It is absurd for anyone to keep insisting that he could have been born in 1949. From the article- "When Ocasek was 16 years old, his family moved to Cleveland, Ohio, where he graduated from Maple Heights High School in 1963." If you insist that he was born in 1949, and he moved when he was 16, (1949+16=1965) then you are trying to say that he graduated from a high school two years before he ever lived there! At age 14!

Either through vanity or at the suggestion of management, celebrities have always lied about their ages. Just because some publications printed the false age early in his career doesn't make it true, or change the laws of mathematics. Kyle kursk (talk) 12:42, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ric Ocasek was born March 23, 1944. His family moved to Maple Heights, Ohio in 1960 (source: 1959 Baltimore City Directory and 1960 Cleveland City Directory). He graduated from Maple Heights High School in 1963 (he said so himself in the source cited in the article). He appears in the 1961, 1962 and 1963 editions of the Maple Heights High School yearbook. He was married in 1963 or 1964 (source: Cuyahoga County Marriage Records and Indexes). His first child was born June 26, 1964 (source: Ohio birth index). That makes a birth date of 1949 quite dubious. Ohnothimagain (talk) 12:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Now go get a
WP:RS to back that up. Toddst1 (talk) 13:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
I added a source from NME that has his DOB in 1944. Spengouli (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is correct and consistent with his high school attendance.

According to User:NinjaRobotPirate, WikiPedia can't use primary sources.64.134.220.14 (talk) 16:54, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per Pareles, Jon (15 Sept 2019). "Ric Ocasek, New Wave Rock Visionary and Cars Co-Founder, Is Dead".
New York Times. Retrieved 16 September 2019. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) his date of birth is disputed. Toddst1 (talk) 18:08, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
Do you have a source that a) I can actually read (bloody
he's used us for that.--Launchballer 18:23, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply
]
@Launchballer:, the passage in that NYT obituary that is being referred to is as follows: "Sources have differed on Mr. Ocasek’s age; some say he was 70, but a few public records and previous articles about him suggest that he was 75." Doc StrangeMailboxLogbook 18:28, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: the updated NYT article now states 75, with the above note removed. All other major news organizations seem to be also reporting 75 - perhaps we could just note the fact the 1949 also has been reported in the past? Connormah (talk) 22:44, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, per the Washington Post [1] "Tall and lanky, with a fondness for dark sunglasses and a corresponding aversion to publicity, Mr. Ocasek had long declined to clarify varying reports about his age, which some sources gave as 70. According to a New York police spokesman, he was 75, and was discovered by police officers about 4 p.m. Sunday in response to a 911 call. The medical examiner’s office announced on Monday that the cause was heart disease, and noted that he had pulmonary emphysema. [...] Mr. Ocasek was born Richard Otcasek in Baltimore on March 23, 1944, according to New York Police Department records." Connormah (talk) 22:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the direct release from the NYPD: [2] "Richard Otcasek aka 'Ric Ocasek', 75". Seems pretty open and shut now. I think "disputed" should be removed in lieu of a note that mentions he was commonly mentioned as being born in 1949, if no one has any objections at this point. Nohomersryan (talk) 23:21, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, The Washington Post, citing New York police records, reports his birth date as March 23, 1944.[2] – Archer1234 (talk) 02:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Worth reading for those involved with this discussion, The New York Times has a Times Insider piece up on how they verified Ocasek's age as 75, not 70, and how the incorrect age came to be circulated. Doc StrangeMailboxLogbook 20:42, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, basically everything I've already posted here and elsewhere on Wikipedia. Ohnothimagain (talk) 23:27, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Doc Strange. Gerntrash (talk) 01:34, 19 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon me for bringing this topic back from the dead (no pun intended), but given that sources meeting
WP:RS discuss the confusion that arose about Ocasek's true age after his death, is there a reason this story hasn't been incorporated into the article? It's helpful information for the casual reader who may not realize that the matter was conclusively settled. Also, I think it's interesting (not to mention bizarre) that he apparently falsified government documents to maintain the pretense. Carguychris (talk) 20:40, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]

References

  1. ^ Case, Wesley. "The Cars, led by Baltimore native Ric Ocasek, get another shot at Rock & Roll Hall of Fame". The Baltimore Sun. The Baltimore Sun. Retrieved 16 September 2019.
  2. ^ Smith, Harrison (September 16, 2019). "Ric Ocasek, singer-songwriter and sparkplug for the Cars, dies at 75". The Washington Post. Mr. Ocasek was born Richard Otcasek in Baltimore on March 23, 1944, according to New York police records.
other discussions about "Age?" collapsed to focus the discussion in one section

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2019

Change his age from 75 to 70 under the personal life and death section: https://pagesix.com/2019/09/15/the-cars-frontman-ric-ocasek-found-dead-in-manhattan-townhouse/ 2604:6000:1011:4687:E9A6:247C:E3B0:86F1 (talk) 01:21, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

75 is more accurate. This article says Ric graduated high school in 1963, and according to the website mylife.com, his first child Christopher was born in 1964. There's no way he could have given birth to his first child at the age of 15. 107.218.152.97 (talk) 01:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marking as answered, since this is discussed elsewhere on the page. Nohomersryan (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2019

You erroneously say he was 70 when he died at the end of the article. He was 75. 165.225.0.77 (talk) 01:35, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Marking as answered, since this is discussed elsewhere on the page. Nohomersryan (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2019

Ric Ocasek was 70. He was born March 23, 1949 and died September 15, 2019. 108.29.20.192 (talk) 01:42, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Marking as answered, since this is discussed elsewhere on the page. Nohomersryan (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2019

All sources of Ric's birthday point to the media, who are unreliable source. This source in the Library of Congress is hard evidence that Ric was born in 1949. http://id.loc.gov/authorities/names/n88615966.html 194.36.17.147 (talk) 01:50, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not done: that's clearly not hard evidence. It cites his existing IMDb page for his birth date. It's in no way a rung above other sources in reliability. Nohomersryan (talk) 01:51, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:IMDBREF Toddst1 (talk) 23:07, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply
]

Age Discrepancy for Ric Ocasek

If Ric Ocasek was born in 1949, he was not 75 when he died. One of the numbers is wrong. Her22372 (talk) 12:31, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • There are a lot of sources saying he was 75. And if the date of his high school graduation as 1963 is to be believed, it lends further credence to an earlier birth date than 1949. JNW (talk) 12:36, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is discussed above in the "Age?" section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ric_Ocasek#Age? Gerntrash (talk) 12:48, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion over his age

He has a son who is older than me - and I'm 54. So, I'm guessing he was 75. I doubt he had a son at age of 15. Perhaps he keep his age a mystery because when the Cars broke in the late 70s he was in his mid thirites - which was, in those days, considered old for Rock & Roll. But not anymore of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:46:8200:450E:5D6:67EF:5E07:DB05 (talk) 13:20, 16 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Family

Any relation to

Ohio State Senate
in the 1970s and 1980s?--Artaxerxes 13:41, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

No relation to OH State Senator Oliver Ocasek, whose grandfather was born in present day Hodonín, Blansko, South Moravia, Czechia. The ancestral village of Ric Ocasek's paternal line is present day Skomelno, Rokycany, Plzeň, Czechia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.72.224.164 (talk) 11:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ocasek's father was a NASA systems analyst, he was married to his first wife Constance (or "Constan") née Campbell from 1963-71,[1] Pauline's parents fled the Communist regime in Czechoslovakia, son Eron is an actor, son Adam is an art director and graphic designer, son Oliver's main interest is music.[2] He leaves five grandchildren.[3]--Artaxerxes 02:49, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Testing signature linking.--Artaxerxes (talk) 11:37, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What are his parents' names?--Artaxerxes (talk) 15:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

According to the Ric Ocasek page in Czech Wikipedia (https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ric_Ocasek): "His grandparents came from Czechoslovakia"--Artaxerxes (talk) 16:32, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In a July 2008 interview in a Czech outlet (iDNEZ.cz), Paulina stated: "But he did not know his grandmother and grandfather from Bohemia much, and his father was already born in America."--Artaxerxes (talk) 16:42, 17 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The only living grandparent when Ric was born in 1944 was his paternal grandfather, August. Ric's mother, Pauline, was orphaned in 1933 at age 13. She was adopted by William and Cora Brown and was living with them on the 1940 US census and listed as Pauline Brown (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K7XD-LXH). Cora Brown would have been the grandmother in Baltimore that Ric Ocasek referred to in interviews as encouraging his interest in music. 73.72.224.164 (talk) 11:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Ocasek" is pronounced "oh-KAY-sick." Not "oh-CASS-ick." Fix it. Source: Any news report or interview on YouTube.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:8280:58f0:a433:3a1e:aacc:ef5f (talk • contribs)

Should the article point out how old he was when he had his first marriage? Vorbee (talk) 15:27, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hard enough just getting his age. Having resolved that: he married Constance in 1963, the year he was graduated from high school. With a reliable source showing wedding date (year, month, day) we could, yes.--Artaxerxes (talk) 15:53, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.inquisitr.com/5637072/ric-ocasek-children-wives/
  2. ^ https://heavy.com/entertainment/2019/09/ric-ocasek-family-parents-wives/
  3. ^ https://www.inquisitr.com/5637072/ric-ocasek-children-wives/

Since we're talking about discrepancies here

The wire story I read in the local paper about Ocasek's death, I believe from the Washington Post but I can't confirm it as their site is blocking me, stated that his birth name was Ritchard Otcasek. Note the divergent spelling of first name that no one else appears to be acknowledging. Just thought I'd throw that out. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 01:34, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cameo in "Fear of a Black Hat".

In the 1993 film "Fear of a Black Hat" , the band N.W.H. , tries its hand at doing a more "mainstream" musical collaboration - ala Run DMC & Aerosmyth - and team up with Ric for a cover of The Tubes song , "White Punks On Dope". ( Re-titled, "White Cops On Dope".). The scene did not make the final cut of the film ,but,the music video does appear as a bonus feature on the DVD release,as well as appearing on the soundtrack album. 75.104.163.41 (talk) 02:17, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ISAWIT, did ya? Toddst1 (talk) 02:19, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply
]

He's Dead?

Are we sure? 73.6.96.168 (talk) 01:16, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm sure; we've got five sources for his death, one of them The New York Times. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 03:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nice Guy

I first saw Mr. Ocasek late one night in the 1980s, when I worked at City Market in Aspen, Colorado. He seemed stoned out of his mind, so, as we were used to dealing with famous people, unless one might have done something unacceptable, I let him be. Years later, after returning to Long Island, where I was studying at LIU, I saw Mr. Ocasek again at Kennedy Airport, where, because my girlfriend's family had not shown up in order to meet us, he offered us a ride to Huntington Village. As I remember, he had an SUV or a minivan, because it was roomy. He was with his wife and at least one of his kids. I told him about our meeting in Aspen, but he kind of shrugged it off. I found him to be very pleasant, courteous, and simply the nicest famous person whom I had ever met. - Bryce "Jack" Combs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.89.101.59 (talk) 00:32, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestry

After some back and forth over sourcing, I've removed the claims about the subject's ancestry because of OR problems. We can't do that kind of synthesis of primary sources. If there is not reliable secondary sourcing discussing this, it should be left out. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:30, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the ancestry material because Svondrak's edits clearly resolved the Czech ancestry issue, which had been debated for several years on WP (e.g., at List of Czech Americans). This was a valuable contribution. If other editors discuss the matter and establish consensus on this talk page that the subject's ancestry should be deleted, then that should be done, but at this point there is no consensus for deleting that information. Doremo (talk) 03:55, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At this point the material is not appropriately sourced and the burden for inclusion has not been met. If reliable secondary sourcing can be presented to support the claims then they can be restored, but absent that restoration is inappropriate. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please build some consensus for your position. Doremo (talk) 04:04, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As per
WP:ONUS, the burden for acquiring consensus falls to those seeking to include disputed material. Since at this point neither of those requirements has been met, please revert your restoration. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
It is clear that the information is accurate, and it is supported by reliable sources. If consensus is established with other editors that the information should be deleted, that should be done. At this point, however, there is no such consensus. You're welcome to open a
WP:RFC to resolve the issue. Doremo (talk) 04:11, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
The source you've added supports that the name is of Czech origin. Nothing else from that set of claims is directly supported by any reliable source provided thus far. The claim of "accurate" is based on original research which cannot be included. And as already noted, consensus is required for inclusion rather than exclusion. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:15, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does not appear that any other editor contributing to this page agrees with removing the material. However, you're welcome to seek consensus on the issue. Until then, the tag you've added to the article seems fair and sufficient. Doremo (talk) 04:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Leave it out. Svondrak's edits relied on Findagrave, a source which fails
WP:USERG and cannot be used here. Binksternet (talk) 04:46, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Svondrak's edits relied on reliable sources that were reproduced at Find a Grave. The current version of the article does not rely on Find a Grave. Doremo (talk) 06:19, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Findagrave was sourced with primary source vital records. FamilySearch considers Findagrave a genealogical second source. Svondrak (talk) 14:57, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But Wikipedia does not. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please provide two real world examples how the ancestral village of Ric Ocasek's Czech ancestors, verified by parish records from the 1800's with images of real books that exist in physical archives and fully accepted by both Czech and Cleveland genealogical groups, somehow becomes acceptable to your standards?
Do we all sit around scanning the internet everyday waiting for one of your acceptable secondary sources to take interest in this subject??
Should I have one of my professional Czech genealogist friends post about it and cite the parish records in a blog? Is that a valid secondary source? Svondrak (talk) 20:10, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, per
WP:USERG. If no secondary sources have taken an interest in this subject, then we don't cover it. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:20, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Even if it is verifiable that he is of Czech ancestry, what is the relevance to Ocasek's biography and notability? The alleged birthplace definitely does not seem well sourced. (t · c) buidhe 07:07, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's simply a biographical fact of the type that one often finds in biographies. Josef Ocásek's birthplace is very reliably sourced. One could add this (plus all the necessary sources at each step), but it really seems excessive:
Ancestors of Ric Ocasek
8. Josef Ocásek (1857, Skomelno, Bohemia – 1906)
4. August Otcasek (1886, Anina, Romania – 1957)
9. Anna Ječman (1866–1933)
2. Theodore Otcasek (1921, Cleveland, OH – 2003)
10. John Kloucsek
5. Frances Klouc(s)ek (1886, Anina, Romania – 1934)
11. Maria Nemec
1. Ric Ocasek (1944, Baltimore, MD – 2019)
12. Owen Williams (1859–1911)
6. John Joseph Williams (1886–1933)
13. Catharine Carroll (1849–1917)
3. Mary Pauline Williams (1920, Baltimore, MD – 2008)
14. Patrick B. Leonard (1847–1893)
7. Claire Elizabth Leonard (1885–1932)
15. Margaret Ann O'Hara (1855–1911)
Doremo (talk) 07:47, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not with the sources presented so far. For example, the article's claim that "His mother was of Irish descent on the maternal side" is cited to a primary source dating to before the subject's birth; the only thing connecting that source to the article subject is original research. This isn't appropriate use of primary sources per NOR; it doesn't directly support the claim made. Plus, as
WP:NOTGENEALOGY. Since the content fails several key policies and the burden for inclusion is not met, it seems fair and appropriate that you self-revert. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:30, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
As usual, the subject's ancestor was born before the subject, hence the relevant source dates to before the subject's birth. Most articles about musicians refer to ancestry, heritage, or descent (cf. Jimi Hendrix, Mick Jagger, Elvis Presley, Taylor Swift, etc.); this one is no exception. The article is already tagged to address your concerns; there is no urgency, and it is appropriate to wait to give other editors an opportunity to comment. Doremo (talk) 14:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per
WP:ONUS, disputed material stays out of the article until consensus forms for inclusion. "It is appropriate to wait" would mean that you stop re-adding the material until consensus is on your side. But you re-added it anyway. Apparently everyone else but you should wait. Binksternet (talk) 14:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply
]
Both Ric Ocasek and his great-grandfather are dead. What is there to wait for? some journalist from Rolling Stone writing an article that has no primary research about the Octasek family of Cleveland?
Exactly what kind of secondary source do you and Nikkimaria think is going to magically appear to meet someone's personal opinion of valid secondary sources? Svondrak (talk) 15:01, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the examples provided by Doremo, there are secondary sources about the article subject that discuss their ancestry. That's what is largely absent here. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The secondary sources have no primary sources. They are based on the family surname. "ocas" in Czech means tail and sek/cek is a diminutive.
It is just weird that citing actual baptism records, or other sources like Findagrave entries that cite those sources, does not meet your standards, but an unsourced Rolling Stone article indicated Ric Ocasek was of Polish ancestry is just fine for years and somehow missed your editing crusade. Svondrak (talk) 15:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The point of Wikipedia is to summarize what secondary sources say on a topic, and not to ourselves publish original synthesis of primary sources. As I told you before, if you believe the secondary sources in this case are incorrect, you can argue against inclusion of the claims, but you cannot substitute your own analysis. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are entirely wrong that the lineage of Ric Osacek's Czech/Bohemian ancestors is not well sourced. One cannot get anymore well sourced then images of the actual parish records from the 1800's and a connecting trail of baptism/marriage/death vital records through the generations. They are known as primary genealogical sources. Svondrak (talk) 20:14, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a venue for publishing genealogy based on primary sources. I appreciate that you're used to working within a different paradigm, but under our policies, that's not appropriate sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:20, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have made Wikipedia a venue for misinformation only accepting "facts" from secondary sources such as the 1979 Rolling Stone article by Jon Pareles that states Ric Ocasek was of Polish descent. This inaccuracy has been repeated many times by other authors.
This misinformation can only be disputed by publishing actual lineage of both his parents, paternal is all Czech and maternal is Irish, German, and Welsh, to prove the Polish ancestry reference is wrong. Svondrak (talk) 20:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But this is not the place to do that publishing. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:29, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is just the place to spread the misinformation as the first entry when searching about Ric Ocasek on the internet.
Thanks Nikkimaria! Svondrak (talk) 21:16, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unverified Sources saying Polish

Ocasek's own book Lyrics & Prose says nothing about having Czech or Polish ancestry. He says he went to Catholic school in Baltimore and was an altar boy until he annoyed the nuns once too often. All the 1980s and '90s tabloids talking about Czech-born model Paulina Porizkova's relationship with Ocasek fail to mention anything about Ocasek's ancestry at the same time they emphasize her birthplace.[3][4] Clearly they did not know Ocasek's family background. Binksternet (talk) 17:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The source all the disinformation about a Polish lineage is author Jon Pareles in a 25-JAN-1979 Rolling Stone article, "The Cars: Power Steering". Maybe he was told Roman Catholic and misheard the information as Polish Catholic.
Every author that read this article, including Ric's RS obituary in 2019, repeated the disinformation (including Wikipedia) until actual research was done into Ric Osasek's heritage.
BTW Ric's 2nd great-grandfather, Vaclav Ocasek (1812), had a brother, Matej (1815) whose son, Vaclav, immigrated to Chicago and was the solo clarinetist in the Theodore Thomas Orchestra. His son was also a musician and died in Butte, MT. ("Able Musician dies in Butte Without Friends", The Anaconda Standard, Anaconda, Montana, Thursday, July 05, 1917. Svondrak (talk) 22:36, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You would be surprised how many people do not know specific details about their ancestors verified by primary source vital records or have oral histories that only have a slight bit of truth. This was especially true of Slavic immigrants that mostly came to the US after the 1870's. Some families carried on traditions, but many wanted their children to assimilate to be American and there was not much talk about the old country. Svondrak (talk) 22:43, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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