Talk:Sheila Allen (English actress)

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There are multiple references in Wikipedia to this lady, most of which had been wrongly linked to the American actress of the same name. Sheila Allen has a dinstinguished stage career as a Shakespearean actress and that aspect will be built up. Perhaps it would be better to flag this as a "stub"? LymeRegis (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flagged as a stub. He's Gone Mental 09:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: NO CONSENSUS. Hadal (talk) 00:49, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]


– citizenship is a definitive measure while a decision whether to say if someone is English, Scottish or Welsh is subjective. In my trawl through I only found one actor disambiguated as Welsh.

There are 26 Wikipedia articles with the disambiguation ".. (British actress)" and 35 articles with the disambiguation ".. (British actor)".

I first got to thinking about this issue in response to reference to Brittanica articles such as:

  • Sir Sean Connery British actor - Sir Sean Connery, original name Thomas Connery (born Aug. 25, 1930, Edinburgh, Scot.), Scottish-born actor whose popularity in James Bond spy thrillers led to a successful, decades-long film career.

Although most Britannica articles seem to be subtitled in this way I later also found:

  • Richard Burton Welsh actor - Richard Burton, original name Richard Walter Jenkins, Jr. (born November 10, 1925, Pontrhydyfen, Wales—died August 5, 1984, Geneva, Switzerland), Welsh stage and motion-picture actor noted for his portrayals of highly intelligent and articulate men who are world-weary, cynical, or self-destructive.

None-the-less I think that this may be a good way to standardise article titles. In certain cases there may be nothing to verify whether a person identifies as a member of any of the constituent countries of the UK and yet they all have British citizenship. GregKaye 09:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a perennial issue, see Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom. My opinion is that they should all be denoted as British. Mr Stephen (talk) 10:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, although for politicians related to the UK and european parliaments I'd prefer ".. (UK politicians)". This gives reference to the country they represent/seek to represent. In the case of disambiguated titles I think it is worth presenting "British" in the disambiguation and then to present more local details in the article content. GregKaye 11:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename all It's time to put an end to UK exceptionalism on this sort of matter. We don't generally drill down for other countries. Timrollpickering (talk) 13:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait - if there's a hung parliament in a few weeks the SNP may ask for another referendum. Also Richard Lynch (Welsh actor) is an actor on Welsh-language TV, looks very odd to be "British" In ictu oculi (talk) 18:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Picking three at random, they all state their nationality in the intro - "Harold Goodwin (22 October 1917 – 3 June 2004) was an English actor", "Richard Lynch (born 1965) is a Southern Welsh television and film actor" and "Richard Wilson OBE (born Ian Carmichael Wilson; 9 July 1936) is a Scottish actor". IE, not British actor. I think
    MOS:IDENTITY applies here. I would say I'm an English editor, not a British editor. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 19:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose per Lugnuts. Additionally, "British" is too vague when specifics are known. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:24, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Lugnuts' rationale.
    MOS:IDENTITY needs to be considered here. If any of them are going to be moved, they should be addressed independently. Nymf (talk) 19:25, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply
    ]
User:GregKaye, to be honest when the UK has one united British football team in the one sport that anyone in UK actually cares about then maybe. The fact is British people are often first English, Welsh or Scottish - including the Queen, I in Scotland II in England. So let's leave it. I mean "(British footballer)"? that would be nonsense. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:44, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Lugnuts' rationale. If someone is from Scotland, England or Wales it is hardly subjective to state that in the title of their article. MarnetteD|Talk 20:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In ictu oculi Every person on the list, if are travellers and if they don't use another passport, will use a British one. The one single anchor point that they have in common is their citizenship. I am not making suggestions here but even in regard to football see: List of England international footballers born outside England. Each person will regardless be a British citizen and then choose their allegiance. "British" may be vague but other parameters can be uncertain. Even in football there may players born in one constituent country who have always played for teams in other places, who have hardly lived in the constituent country of their birth and/or who have parents from other places. The same equally true of people in other spheres of activity. GregKaye 20:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opposed per Lugnuts and MarnetteD's comment.
    talk) 00:13, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply
    ]
  • Oppose The purpose of the information in brackets is simply disambiguation and would not even be there were it not for the fact that there is someone else with the same name, therefore provided it is accurate I don't see that it is necessary to rename the articles. Sealman (talk) 07:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Lugnuts - No point in repeating what's already been said..... –Davey2010Talk 17:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. As you can see from this identity card, these people are legally classified as "British citizens." The passports also say "British citizen".[1] In contrast, a person's "Englishness" can be quite subjective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The initializer (talk • contribs)
NB see sock puppet investigation on The initializer possibly Kauffner again In ictu oculi (talk) 11:04, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nonsense; there IS such thing as "English actor" and "Scottish actor". It wouldn't be equal to disambiguation by region, town, or county to use either of those as they are countries. WP:PRECISE also applies. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:05, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They are not states. They are merely regions of the British state.
WP:PRECISE does not apply. There is no difference between suggesting that one use "Scottish actor" and suggesting that one use "Texan actor" or "Alaskan actor". We do not use such designations for actors from anywhere on Wikipedia, and there is no reason why we should do so for actors from Britain. In fact, American states have more sovereignty than these regions, because of the nature of the American federal system. If one must have "Scottish actor", one must have "Texan actor". I'm opposed to both. Britain is the state, and the sovereign entity. Disambiguation must be applied consistently, unless we are to start writing "Silesian actor" or "Galician poet". There is no justification for using the non-existent "Scottish" and "English" designations. RGloucester — ☎ 20:44, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
I said they were countries, and countries are often used as DABs. To say "Scottish" and "English" are non-existent designations is absurd, and most certainly is NOT like saying "Texan" or "Alaskan". It would be more like saying "American" or "Canadian". Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is nothing like saying "American" or "Canadian". Both of those are sovereign states, i.e. the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Scotland and England are mere historical regions, on par with Silesia and Galicia, or maybe Cornwall or Devon. We do not use historical regions for disambiguation. We disambiguate on the basis of the state that a person has origins in. These people are from British state. RGloucester — ☎ 06:06, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply
]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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