Talk:St. Regis New York

St. Regis New York has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: August 18, 2023. (Reviewed version).

The contents of the King Cole Bar page were merged into St. Regis New York on 10 March 2021. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

A fact from St. Regis New York appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 12 January 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: Did you know... that in the 1980s, New York City's St. Regis Hotel (pictured) was said to have hosted every U.S. president since its opening? A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/St. Regis New York.

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:46, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

The St. Regis New York

• ... that the operator of the St. Regis Hotel relocated the hotel's main entrance to get a liquor license? Source: "$3,000,000 Hotel Without a License Yet: the Eighteen Story St. Regis is So Close to a Church That Many Complications Have Arisen". New-York Tribune. June 5, 1904. p. A1.
  • ALT1: ... that the first operator of the St. Regis Hotel said news coverage of the hotel was a "positive injury" to business? Source: "Too Well Advertised, St. Regis Man Laments; R.M. Haan Tells the Troubles of the House". The New York Times. November 6, 1904.
  • ALT2: ... that Vincent Astor, who acquired New York City's St. Regis Hotel as a 20-year-old in 1912, owned it for several decades? Source: (1) "Young Astor's Lands Worth $150,000,000; At 21 He Will Control More Millions Than Any Man of His Age in the Country". The New York Times. May 8, 1912. (2) "Quick Legal Moves Kept St. Regis Open After Astor's Death". The New York Times. February 10, 1959. Note that Astor sold the hotel in 1927 and then reacquired it in 1935.
  • ALT3: ... that New York City's St. Regis Hotel was sold three times in less than two years after being owned by the same man for over two decades? Source: "Glickman to Buy St. Regis Hotel; Deal for Property Made With Kratter Corporation". The New York Times. July 29, 1961.
  • ALT4: ... that New York City's St. Regis Hotel was once described as the "grand dame of East 55th Street"? Source: "St. Regis, Now 60 Years Old, Mirrors Era of Gracious Living". The New York Times. September 5, 1964.
  • ALT5: ... that in the 1980s, New York City's St. Regis Hotel was said to have hosted "every U.S. president since its opening"? Source: McArthur, Douglas (January 8, 1983). "Travelling on Business Room for Everyone Now in New York Hotel Boom". The Globe and Mail. p. T8.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/James B. Jones

5x expanded by Epicgenius (talk). Self-nominated at 15:26, 19 December 2022 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral : Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed : Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: - Not done
Overall: @Epicgenius: Good article. Just waiting on a qpq. Onegreatjoke (talk) 16:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Onegreatjoke: Thanks for the review. I have now done a QPQ, which took even longer than usual because I had limited internet access over the last few days - sorry about that. Epicgenius (talk) 18:32, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Approve. Onegreatjoke (talk) 16:53, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Passed. Bruxton (talk) 23:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Bruxton (talk · contribs) 17:38, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I am happy to review this article. Bruxton (talk) 17:38, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

• The lead is an excellent summary following
  MOS:LEAD
  . It is clear, Neutral and concise. All of the information which is presented or summarized in the lead is covered and cited in the body of the article.

Site

• The section is interesting and fully cited with a relevant image. The editor has used helpful conversion templates and presented the information in understandable prose.

History

• The sources check out. The history of why this site was selected is thorough. We also learn the etymology of the name here. Bruxton (talk) 21:50, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Construction

• Possible rewording needed for "The structure was planned to cost $1.25 million" maybe the "budget" for the structure? Bruxton (talk) 15:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have rephrased that sentence. Epicgenius (talk) 22:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Controversies and delays

• Interesting and thorough. Ruptured pipes, lawsuits and delays. A very well written section with good detail. And the ingenuity of moving the entrance to qualify for a liquor license, "relocated the hotel's main entrance from Fifth Avenue to 55th Street". Bruxton (talk) 15:56, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Opening and early years

John Jacob Astor ownership

• I have spot checked the references and they check out. The section is thorough, interesting and well referenced. Bruxton (talk) 16:02, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Duke ownership

• Citation 102 is given for the sentence: "hat year, bartender Fernand Petiot invented a drink at the St. Regis, which later became the Bloody Mary" but I cannot find that information in the source. Bruxton (talk) 13:57, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added another reference. I also rephrased the article to mention that Petiot worked at the St. Regis and invented what became the Bloody Mary (though not necessarily in that order). Epicgenius (talk) 22:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Re-acquisition by Astor

• Interesting and well written section. Citations check out. Bruxton (talk) 03:50, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Post-Astor period

• I called out the image in this section below in the chart.
• Are we not sure about the price? End of section: "between $14 million and $16 million." Bruxton (talk) 03:56, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The NYT source says, "The exact price was not disclosed at the request of the sellers, but it was understood to be between $14 and $16 million." Epicgenius (talk) 22:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sheraton operation

• This section is thorough and well written. I have spot checked the reference and they are accurate. The images are great. Bruxton (talk) 04:17, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Architecture

The sub sections are of great interest to this reader. The section is comprehensive and referenced to quality publications. The original structure and subsequent work is covered well. Very interesting to this reader. Good use of conversion templates here.

• One quibble here is that many sentences may suffer from
  WP:OVERCITE
  . the issue is minor and not really a concern for GA.
  • Generally, I'm trying to have no more than three citations per sentence. My reasoning is that more citations would make it easier to verify the text, but that more than three cites will make the article hard to read and will be citation overkill. Epicgenius (talk) 22:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• The sentence in the interior section states: "French marble was used extensively in the corridors on each story". I can only confirm "marble" from the given sources. Citation 255 and 270 do not say French. Does citation 276 confirm "French" marble? Bruxton (talk) 14:58, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cite 276 says "Col. Astor selected the glassy marble from France -- reportedly considering Italian varieties far too common." Nonetheless, I've removed "French" from the above-mentioned sentence, as it's cited later on. Epicgenius (talk) 22:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notable people

• Terrific image in this section. The section is great to show the significance of the hotel as a place that affirms social status. Bruxton (talk) 15:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Impact

• A terrific accounting of the cultural significance. Bruxton (talk) 15:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

End matter

• arranged according to
  MOS:ORDER with appropriate navigation templates. Citations check out. Bruxton (talk) 15:52, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply
  ]

Chart

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Yes
	1b. it complies with the list incorporation .	Yes
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline .	Yes
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Yes
	2c. it contains no original research.	Yes
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Yes
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Yes
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Yes
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Yes
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	Yes
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as audio :
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	Yes removed. The license for the image File:Cesar Balsa St. Regis.jpg is unclear and no year is given. The other images are all clear and relevant with correct license. Bruxton (talk) 17:54, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions .	Yes
	7. Overall assessment.

• Thanks for the review Bruxton. I think I have addressed everything now. Epicgenius (talk) 22:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Epicgenius: Can you speak to the license on the image I called out in the chart above? After that we are likely to wrap up. Thank you for the explanations Bruxton (talk) 23:12, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Bruxton, I have no idea where that image came from, so I've removed it. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I can only base this on my own experience, and conversations with employees - as I was taken there by my parents from an early age, and worked there one summer and into the fall of 1978.

During the early '60s the main dining room was at the center-south side of the original building (perhaps on location of the earlier Palm Court) and was called the Oak Room. Only a comparatively small space existed on the main level at the time for sidework, and staff were required to climb and descend two flights of stairs to the basement kitchen and dishwasher/pantry with stacked trays. (We were told this by the waiters, and I later experienced it, but by that time only busboys and dishwashers had to carry trays up and down the stairs, and that only rarely.)

Sometime before I showed up to work in '78 the Oak Room had been turned into the the main kitchen: with some prep work, the range/grill, dishwasher, and room service staging area now all located in the footprint of the erstwhile Oak Room, where Cher and Salvador Dali (who made a very striking entrance one time when I was there as a child, dashing up to someone's table, kneeling down and kissing her hand) were said to be habitues. In order to accomplish the changeover they had taken a very fancy art deco elevator built along with the annex, and dedicated it exclusively to room service - hence the need for the two new elevators flanking the erstwhile entrance to the Oak Room, which became an odd looking, blank, arch-formed end wall. (They should pay to build it back! with escalators!)

The Oak Room and the later King Cole Room did a roaring lunch business every day but were mostly dead at night during the week. They had the highest quality food in the early '60s, and I think it was seen as a loss leader to keep their pedigreed guests coming back. A lot of preparation remained in the old kitchen downstairs including the bakery, after the Oak Room closed. I remember passing by the ghostly apparition of the then-defunct longest cookline/range I've ever seen, on my daily errand of running cakes and deserts up from the bakery.

In the configuration of circa 1964 there were three rooms where dining was possible: the Oak Room, in the original building, a lounge (known as Psyche at one point as I recall) and the King Cole Bar. Both the lounge and King Cole were located in the annex. The three contiguous rooms, all located south of the lobby area, were connected by two rectangular portals located on their side walls to the north, with the double doors generally open - and by a hall along the back, that ran from a screened-off west-facing door at the southwest corner of King Cole, then behind the lounge having a south-facing screened-off door, and finally to the kitchen stairs located in back of the Oak Room. The stair area there had quite a large screen with sidetable space and supplies behind, which appeared on its public side as a three-faced rectangular-bevel-sectored mirror with oak wainscotting, having a very large oaken representation of a teapot on the front, centered along the back wall of the room to match the its expansive oak box-paneling.

The point about the mural is that it was originally on the south wall of the King Cole Bar (or at least it was in my experience, starting in the early '60s) behind the long bar, which took up most of the south wall of the large room which became Lespinasse. I did see it after Lespinasse moved in, and the most unique characteristic of the room save the mural had been preserved, that being a smooth-sculpted plaster ceiling designed to look like a large tent draped overhead, in stylized form. The Oak Room ceiling also had a fancy configuration with indirect lighting, about 30 feet high, above its light-toned oak paneled walls. I remember when Sheraton came in they gussied up this spare soft palette with two giant pictures of some Astors staring at each other across the room, backed by over-broad concentric back-layers of red velvet, with ropes and tassels.

I worked in what was called the King Cole Room, the main dining room at the time, which had been modified from its earlier all-encompassing Medieval theme with escutcheons and such. The earlier bar/restaurant that was King Cole had a dark and rather oppressive atmosphere, with its colored decorations looming in darkness and the lights shining always on the mural. The King Cole Room where I worked, by contrast had a lot of light, usually, and three floor elevations, tiered along the three sides opposite the mural, with the walkway for customers and staff as the middle tier. (The lounge had become the bar at this point.) The central lower level could be cleared of tables and used as a dance floor, and often was on weekends while I was there. What I heard from employees, some of whom stayed there for a good part of their lives, was that the ice skating rink was located in what became the King Cole Bar, or maybe concurrently with it.

The believed-by-me circa 1960 re-do with the fancy ceilings and intervening lounge, did have a lot of style, consciously playing on the lack of windows to take advantage of the possible lighting effects of intimacy versus the formal public lobby, which was lit by clerestory windows. The later Astor Court (It's like an aquarium.) at the time was copiously paneled in flat, modernist dark red polished marble (whence the deco elevator later tasked with room service) against a black, brass-lined floor partially covered by a deep-pile, expensive looking rug - to contrast with the the formal and airy design of the lobby proper in the older part. There, two brass-railinged steps down from the lobby proper, was a low, geometrically patterned ceiling, to add to the contrast, and topiary boxwoods flanking a broadly recessed glass entrance to the lounge. A floor-to-ceiling marble portal to the left led into the King Cole Bar. Finally, there was a florist right off the newer now-old lobby, with a door matching that of the deco elevator, to add olfactory sumptuousness to it all. At one point I remember they had a lady harpist playing in there: Absolute, Deepest, Luxury.

I think Mr. Balsa really knew how to run a hotel. And I'm so grateful to have this excellent record of it provided by Wikipedia. 2603:7000:C901:5F00:74E0:5119:5598:83D8 (talk) 06:19, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]