Talk:State atheism

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On the article page, the map key reads:
Dark Red: Countries that formerly practiced state atheism
Light Red: Countries that currently practice state atheism

When clicking on the map, the key reads:
Dark Red: Countries that currently practice state atheism
Light Red: Countries that formerly practiced state atheism

I don't know which is accurate, but the discrepancy should be corrected. Captainakira (talk) 04:07, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They seem to agree when I look at them. Hardyplants (talk) 04:43, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any actual laws or official acts from this time in which France declared itself atheist?

The 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen contained: "For these reasons, the National Assembly doth recognize and declare, in the presence of the Supreme Being, and with the hope of his blessing and favour, the following sacredrights of men and of citizens".

The 1791 Constitution contains: "In consequence, the National Assembly recognizes and declares, in the presence and under the auspices of the Supreme Being, the following rights of man and citizen. "

The 1793 Constitution contains: "In consequence, it proclaims in the presence of the supreme being the following declaration of the rights of man and citizen."

The Decree of the National Convention of 18 Floreal (May 7th 1794) says "The French recognise the existence of the soul and of the Supreme Being".

The 1795 Constitution contains: "The French people proclaim in the presence of the Supreme Being the following declaration of the rights of man and citizen: "

While there certainly were some atheist intellectuals that operated 1789-1799, there is a huge difference between dechristianisation, anticlericalism, and actual atheism. Enlightened thinkers were often deists that believed in a God decoupled from Christianity. Robespierre actually imposed the Cult of the Supreme Being in 1794. The non-theistic Cult of Reason was, as I understand it, first imposed by Chaumette (an unusual irreligious extremist, in the view of his fellow revolutionaries) as Mayor of Paris, was accepted by various other communities outside the capital, but was never mandated at the State level, to the point that the Convention (=the national Parliament) never partecipated to the Feasts of Reason, although some members did.

87.6.144.100 (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that as you mentioned the Cult of Reason was an atheistic organization. But it seems less strong from what I have seen. The section has no content so it can probably be removed or moved to the antireligion pages.Ramos1990 (talk) 00:18, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The cult of reason never was atheist. lease read about the Fr. Rev before any writings.1) There never existed any French State atheism. During the French Revolution, some rules of the Terror period celebrated publicly a Deist creed.

2) The link you are referring to about the French Revolution is not so reliable. e. g. When it reffers to the Concordat, there's a confusion between a Treaty between France and the papal state (the 1801 Concordat) and an act passed by Bonaparte First Consul of the French Republic, not yet Emperor Napoleon.

3) The best translation for the French concept of "laïcité" is no secularism (which is more about society) but total disestablishment. You can't have disestablishment in a state atheism situation. What is true is that, some French politicians, rather from the right, when talking about French Laïcité, are not in laïcité but rather in laiklik, the Turkish Kemalist version whis is not a disestablishment of Islam but a submission of one religion to the state. Definitly not the same.

Acteonmako, Agregation laureate and historian (historian with long texts and footnotes!) Acteonmakon2 (talk) 14:05, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So actually we all agree that it should be removed (and it looks like it has been the case for years). So is there a counter-argument, or can I remove the section and any mentions of it? Eleventh1 (talk) 19:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do. In the French version of this article not only was it recently included (partly with my help), but the Cult of Reason is also mentioned as "atheist and naturalist" in the description of it. In addition, the original English section included several sources.

Another thing I would like to add, and that could be considered a small footer, is that in the

temples of Reason", a kind of atheistic pseudo-religion which worshiped the "Goddess Reason". Other localities began to do the same, until Maximilien Robespierre intervened and removed the cult of reason in favor of the deistic cult of the Supreme Being.", accompanied by various sources and redirects. ComradeHektor (talk) 17:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply

]

The Cult of Reason was never an official policy of any French government. The sources must support the claim being made, not something adjacent like dechristianisation (state atheism, by definition, must be a nationwide policy). This is something that is well established in all history books on the French Revolution (whether in English or French). Eleventh1 (talk) 18:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"State atheism or atheist state is the incorporation of hard atheism or non-theism into political regimes..."

It doesn't say it has to be at the national level.

In Mexico the anti-religious politics was concentrated in states like Jalisco or Tabasco with the "red shirts", for example. Another case that we could consider a precedent for State atheism in China is that of warlord Bai Chongxi in Guangxi province, who implemented similar policies in the name of the Kuomintang.

The fact that there has been no constitutionally atheist state except Albania makes things less clear. ComradeHektor (talk) 19:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No : by definition, the form of government of a state or a central element of a political regime is at the national level, and this is definitely even more the case for France, which is historically THE archetypal centralised government.

The examples you cite do not prove your point, because in Mexico the policy was indeed national, it was just applied differently in different parts of the country. And as for the other one, Bai Chongxi's policy is not state atheism, just religious persecution... and anyway, while I am no expert on him at all, it just looks like he applied his policy to the part of China he controlled as if it were an independent country. Which is quite different from what happened during the French Revolution, where there was still a national government that could have passed laws that would have allowed it to regulate religions as it wished throughout the territory of France... and it chose not to introduce any form of state atheism.

Of course, we could imagine a partially atheist state in a federal system, but that is not the case here, so it is not relevant. There was no atheist state during the French Revolution, so why pretend there was ? Eleventh1 (talk) 21:31, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

State atheism can be considered a counterpart to state religion, right? —Maybe even as a form of this—. Well, we have examples of confessional states with multiple religions in their territory, for example there is the case of Indonesia, where several religions are recognized such as Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc. and where sharia or Islamic law only applies in certain territories. ComradeHektor (talk) 22:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am in agreement with User:ComradeHektor. The Cult of Reason certainly deserves mention here, which was intertwined with the larger movement of anticlericalism in Revolutionary France. Anupam^Talk 22:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are all the "References" listed really used in the article? Editor2020 (talk) 23:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. An editor changed the format from the usual cite referencing format to this. There are numerous pages from the same source used in some of the citations so it seems helpful in that it reduces duplicate referencing.Ramos1990 (talk) 02:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Editor2020 (talk) 18:35, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Religious people have nearly always discriminated against people of other religions or people of non-religion, Christians, for example have said that anyone who doesn't believe in god, or doesn't believe in the "right" god are going to the fictitious place known as hell. History has proven that religious people have been far more discriminatory and violent. Proletarian Banner (talk) 22:08, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The phrasing "Soviet Communism" is technically oxymoronic and should be Soviet socialism, but since that's a quote well... There is also, besides oxymoronic phrasing, the presence of a blatant hypocrisy as stated above, they call State Atheism a form of political repression but historically religious individuals have been far more repressive. Proletarian Banner (talk) 22:12, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That seems irrelevant to state atheism, and doubly irrelevant to this talk page which is improvement of the coverage of state atheism. North8000 (talk) 22:43, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Map shows that Cuba currently practices state atheism, while the article says they stopped that practice in 2019. 2603:8000:D341:6100:DD0B:AA23:4B64:4D62 (talk) 04:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The section about Albania says that the USSR was an atheist state, just like Albania under Hoxha, although this is not true. Hoxha declared Albania the first atheist state, not in the sense of pursuing a policy of state atheism (since the USSR and other states also pursued it), but in the sense of a complete ban on religion in the country. In this regard, I consider it an incorrect statement that the USSR was an atheist state on a par with Albania, since the USSR never completely banned religion. 176.213.208.32 (talk) 09:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The way state atheism was implemented in various countries differs, which is precisely why there are separate sections on each country. Article 37 of the Constitution of Albania stated that it "supports atheistic propaganda". The Soviets had their own policy of gosateizm. Anupam^Talk 22:18, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]