Talk:Umayyad dynasty

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Edit. Whoever created or last edited this page put the wrong Arabic text for Banu Umayya. The original text ran " Banu Umayya (

: بنو الخلافة) " the Arabic there literally is "Banu al-Khilafat" not Banu Umayya. Banu al-Khilafat means "Sons of the Caliphate" or the Caliphate family. Obviously this is an egregious error or someone feeding a Sunni/Shia sectarian fight. I re-edited it to read (: بنو أمية) - the Arabic text rendering of Banu Umayya. - KJS 70.39.176.167 (talk) 14:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that

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@Tanbircdq, Tarook97, and Al Ameer son: as the non-IP users mostly involved in creating/writing/expanding these articles, your input would be much appreciated. Constantine ✍ 10:47, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@

Banu Umayya. —Al Ameer (talk) 02:46, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

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No, the opposite; I propose creating a common article out of

Banu Umayya and Umayyad family tree at Umayyad dynasty, so that we don't mix the dynasty stuff into the Umayyad Caliphate article, as was the case hitherto. --Constantine ✍ 10:25, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

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@Cplakidas: For the reasons you state—"the family has a history that is both much earlier and continues considerably after the Damascus-based caliphate"—I would think Banu Umayya is the better title for an article on the family. I agree with merging this article into that one. As for redirect targets, I am not sure. "Umayyad" redirects to the caliphate, so perhaps "Umayyad dynasty" should as well. If it redirects to Banu Umayya, then we need a hatnote there as well. "Umayyad dynasty" strikes me as ambiguous between the state (as in Chinese usage) and the family, but I could go either way. Srnec (talk) 14:39, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying

Mirdasids, etc. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:32, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

]

@

WP:ENG and understandability for the average reader. On the "Umayyad dynasty" redirecting to the Caliphate, I strongly disagree: the Emirate and Caliphate of Cordoba in al-Andalus are equally part of the Umayyad dynasty's history, and an equally important chapter in Islamic and world history. That is why the conflation of the family with the caliphate, as it has existed until now, is wrong. Constantine ✍ 20:21, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

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@Cplakidas: Fair enough. I didn't taken the Umayyads of Spain into account. In that case, your proposal may be the soundest option, though I'm still a bit hesitant about changing the name from "Banu Umayya" to "Umayyad dynasty" because the former, as far as I've observed from various RS, focuses on the pre-dynastic period, while "dynasty" would focus on the Umayyad states in Damascus and indeed Cordoba. For now, maybe we can just redirect Umayyad dynasty and merge the family tree into "Banu Umayya" and deal with the best name for that article later as we expand it? --Al Ameer (talk) 21:04, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@

Umayyad caliphate article is exclusively about the Damascus one. For some reason, I feel the caliphate in Damascus has some sort of primacy over other Umayyad states, but I don't feel strongly about it either way. HaEr48 (talk) 00:47, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply

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On the Banu Umayya, I agree that as a name it is more appropriate for the family's early history, but this could still (per the original proposal) be part of an "Umayyad dynasty" article. Your suggestion sounds good to me, however, let's wait a few days to see if there are more opinions. Constantine ✍ 21:08, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support After thinking about it, I agree that both those articles should redirect to "Umayyad dynasty", and that it's preferred over "Banu Umayya" due to redundancy and English-language preference. DA1 (talk) 13:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support the merger. But I wonder if "dynasty" is appropriate if we're also talking about the pre-caliphate history? I prefer Banu Umayya, but wouldn't oppose either choice. HaEr48 (talk) 00:41, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It appears there is consensus for moving and merging to Umayyad dynasty. Unless any new opinions come, I will perform the move after the new year. Constantine ✍ 13:44, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]