Talk:White people/Archive 22
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Protect?
Protection might be a good idea for this article. It seems to be vandalized often.
- I've looked and it is not yet at levels that require that, in my opinion. Several of the recent are from a single IP, so if problems persist than a block is more egalitarian than stomping on all of our innocent IP brothers and sisters. - brenneman 12:30, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- We would need to know that the IP is not from a public place ... can you investigate that? Slrubenstein | Talk 14:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I've noticed that this page as well as another were vandalised repeatedly yesterday by IP 209.250.179.214 and I don't really know how to go about reporting this person. Personally I feel that this seems to be a rather significant as well as significantly vandalised page, enough so that some sort of protection seems warranted. :-) --Marshmellis (talk) 13:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- I would agree with Marshmellis that this page needs spme protection, it is far more than one or two IP addresses, and the fact that this page is listed on the Most vandalised pages page is surely enough to justify it. Fraggle81 (talk) 15:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
White people and humor
Isn't it true that white people have given the gift of humor to the world, that of taking themselves as a joke? I have noticed that white people act in an exaggerated fashion all the time, like they are mocking themselves. I used to just think this was the way white people were, but then I began to think that they were making fun of themselves and that it was sort of an inside joke.
Either way, I think it is important to note on the page something about how white people generally act silly, sometimes ambiguously through sarcastic humor, and sometimes in a merely self-pitying, self-deprecating fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Climenole (talk • contribs) 12:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Costa Rica
I erased Costa Rican section because there is no certain facts of these percentages, the only certain numbers is that 94% are white or mestizo, just like Chilean facts. The recent Costa Rican census only indetifies minorities like black, amerindian or chinese groups, that together make a 6% of the population, and the other 94% fit in the "other" category. Therefore Costa Rica should not be considered as a white majority country, based in these facts and in the perception of anyone who had been there.--Mlnte (talk) 17:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I restored the section because it gives sourced information relevant to the article. As there is no true, absolute definition of white. The section does say that mestizos and whites form 94% of the population. Let's leave it at that and not remove otherwise pertinent information based solely on individual perception of "how white" its inhabitants are.--Ramdrake (talk) 18:56, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
I think this section does make clear that 94% of Costa Rican population are either white or castizo, not white or mestizo that is the real fact. And in other sentence assumes that 82% of this 94% are white, and that is the point of discrepancy. The primary source of the CIA World Factbook and other sources are based on Costa Rican National Census, and this Census does not make this assumption. So I´m asking your permission for making this changes to make the article more fiable, specificly to erase that 82% white majority, there is no certain proof of that.--Mlnte (talk) 22:00, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Don't have a problem with this revision as it seems the 82% isn't sourced anyway.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:06, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
2 MDs from Newcastle
They state that the term white in practice, refers to people of European origin with pale complexions". This statement is totally incorrect for any usage I have ever heard in the US. I can think of no situation where dark complected Greeks, Cypriots, Lebanese, Italians, Spaniards, or Germans would be considered non-white. The black Irish are white in the US if not in Newcastle.Nitpyck (talk) 05:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- My apologies to the doctors- what they actually say in the referenced paper is "White is effectively a category for everyone left out of specific racial and ethnic groups." "The US define a white person as a person having origins in any of the original people of Europe, North Africa or the Middle East. Until recently persons from India were considered White in the US Census."
the actual gist of the paper is that white is a fairly useless category for medical studies since it includes too many different types to be useful. That is this group is not sufficiently heterogeneous to use for purposes of epidemiology and health research. Since this is the opposite of what is claimed in the article, and they're not presently at Newcastle I have edited the section. Nitpyck (talk) 06:16, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
History White Lebanon
Based on what I read in Wikipedia, The Middle East was once considered part of southeast Europe, and later it was put in southwest Asia. I don't know why any of these things were done but I am just telling you what I read. Lebanon was Phonenicia, a Phoenician named Fenusius Farsa brought the Ogham language to Ireland. Ogham is the Gaelic language. Tara is in Ireland and it was a Phoencian colony. Maybe that's why the Irish aren't considered white? The Phoencians took tin from Britain and copper from Cyprus and turned it into bronze. They sold the bronze to the Greeks. Maybe that's why the British aren't considered white? Christopher Columbus was from Genoa, Italy. Genoa and Sicily were Phoencian colonies. Maybe that's why the Italians aren't considered white? Raymond of Toulusee came to Lebanon from France in the 1100s during the First Crusade. The French crusaders controlled Lebanon until the 1200s. The French took the Lebanonese Christians to Cyrpus during the crusades. The French and the Lebanese Christians fought against the Muslims in Cyrpus so that they the Muslims wouldn't use Cyrpus as a lauchning point to invade and conquer Europe. They did their part to protect Europe. Some of the Christians in Cyrpus today trace their roots back to Raymond of Toulousse and the Lebanese Christians in the crusades. Raymond is a very popular name in Lebanese Christian circles. France is very popular in Lebanese cricles. Now you know why? The majority of the Christians in Lebanon today trace their roots back to the Crusades and Raymond of Toulousse. The Germans came to the Middle East in the 4th Crusade. However, remember to the Europeans the local Christians in Lebanon were heathens and had to be reeducated. The majority of the people who call themselves Arab Americans in America are Lebanese Christians and trace their roots back to the crusades. I think this is why they write white on the US census. Anyway, hopefully all my information is correct, i got it from Wikipedia, sorry about the mispellings —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.144.227.46 (talk) 02:57, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Lebanese in Australia, Caucasoid versus "White":
Why is it that Australia is probably the only country in the Western World where Lebanese have a "stigma" status attached to them? Australia still has a Nordicist view of what "white" is and socialy the term is restricted to Anglo-Celtic, Germanic, Nordic and other kindred people of similar phenotype. Southern Europeans are often referred to as "Wogs" which indicates to a degree that they are not seen as being "white" on the same level as Northern Europeans.
Here is an image of the Australian far-right politician James (Jim) Saleam: http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2008/02/02/PM_australia_wideweb__470x278,0.jpg
Saleam is said to be born to an Anglo-Celtic mother and a Lebanese father (others say Turkish). Aesthetically he looks "white" (i.e. fair skinned, blue eyes, Caucasoid features and brown hair which turned grey) and in anyone's language he is still fully Caucasian. However, both left and right wingers have criticised him for being an advocate of white nationalism due to his part Lebanese ancestry. To those of you push the POV that Middle Easterners are equally white as Swedes, why is it that Saleam's Lebanese ancestry is something that has not been dismissed and ignored and he is criticised for his political beliefs because of his background? I surmise that Australian society's restricted identification of "white" has something to do with it. Interesting considering that Lebanese are classed as "white" in U.S., South American cencuses and were accepted as white in South Africa during Apartheid.
- While that’s an interesting question you ask (and, personally, I’d be interested in learning more about it and discussing it), I would like to direct you to this message at the top of the page:
This is not a forum for general discussion of White people/Archive 22. Any such messages will be deleted. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. - Unfortunately, it seems you have come to the wrong place with your question. So unless you are discussing a change to the article, your comment will have to be deleted. Also, please remember to sign your comment with four tildes (~~~~)-- Irn (talk) 03:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
My point of this statement is that there have been people deleting sections of the article about the restricted definitions of the term "white". Non-European Caucasoids and Southern Europeans are not always socially percieved as white.
- The article already says this though doesn't it? The very second sentence states "It often refers narrowly to people claiming ancestry exclusively from Europe." So why pretend that the article doesn't say it? Alun (talk) 13:07, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- Oh and it also says "According to John Tehranian, among those not considered white at some points in American history have been: the Irish, Germans, Jews, Italians, Spaniards, Hispanics, Slavs, and Greeks.", which covers the European groups that have sometimes not been considered white. Ont he whole the article does cover a great many different points of view regarding where and when different groups have been included or excluded from the category. It's certainly not clear cut or anything like universally accepted which groups the term actually applies to. Alun (talk) 05:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
SOUTHEAST ASIA
South-East Asians are neither Caucasoid, Aryan or Indo-European. Why are they listed as white in the first paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.223.196.39 (talk) 13:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know. I agree with you, the citations mention south Asia but not south east Asia. It's true that people from the Indian subcontinent are often classified as Caucasian, but our cites don't mention south east Asia. It's missleading because it looks like the citations support this claim, but they don't seem to.Alun (talk) 13:11, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Bad Footnote
The term "white race" or "white people" entered dictionaries of the major European languages in the 1600s.[6] Unless there is a good reference this needs to modified. English (a major European language) didn't even have dictionaries in the 17th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitpyck (talk • contribs) 05:45, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- According to sources from the dictionary article, what you wrote isn't true; English had dictionaries in 1600s. -- Irn (talk) 03:44, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- "ends with a list of 8000 "hard words". Mulcaster does not define any of them." This 1- hardly constitutes a dictionary and 2- would not have included white race or white people. The cite should be to the first dictionary to include and define white people or white race. In fact the footnote [6] has nothing to do with dictionaries.Nitpyck (talk) 03:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Contradictory statements
In the second paragraph under "Origins of Light Skin", these two statements appear:
"This probably explains the greater variety of skin color found outside sub-Saharan Africa.[28]" "Though African populations are relatively dark, according to a recent study[citation needed] they possess a greater diversity in skin complexion than all other populations."
These appear to be a direct contradiction. The second statement has no citation, so perhaps it is unfounded, but it may just be sloppy editing. Be that as it may, both statements cannot be true; if they are conflicting views supported by different academic authorities, that should be stated. However, I don't feel I know enough about the subject to edit, so if someone who knows about this can clarify the situation it would be helpful.
CattOfTheGarage (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Hitler
Why dont you guys add Hitler to this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.47.3 (talk) 21:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Deletion
One early use of the term appears in the Amherst Papyri, which were scrolls written in ancient Ptolemaic Greek. It contained the use of black and white in reference to human skin color.[4] The cited reference says exactly the opposite. Nitpyck (talk) 00:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Washed-out photograph, Werner Heisenburg
Furthermore, the fact that
By the way, to editors worried about ridding this article of photographs of anyone "Jewish", you're going to have to remove
ARJACENT VS ERIK9 DEBATE ON WHETHER BAR IS WHITE
According to the definition of white race, found on Wikipedia, the term refers to people of primarly European ancestry. Bar Rfaeli, being from an Asian country, does not meet this criteria. John Key, being an Ashkenazi Jew, may and you will note that no attempt was made to remove his picture. The 'may' part is dicussed below.
From both a sociological and genetic point of view, "white people" most commonly refers to people of European descent and not merely those with white pigmentation. For if it did, the defintion would be too general to be of any use. Afterall, some oriental, Semitic, and African people share similar phenotypes such as fair skin and light eyes and would likewise have a claim. Common experience should also tell you that Europeans differ in appearance (height, complexion, etc) and culture (language, food, etc) from other fair skinned peoples, and there is genetic evidence that suggests they are unique. I invite you to read on haplogroups and other indicators of race at the genetic level, here are some links to get you started: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf Broadly speaking, R1 at sufficient frequency is an indicator of who is ethnically European, and not the geographical borders.
Next, even if we went under the assumption that Israeli people were white they would represent less than 2% of the white population. Why would such a small fraction be represented so disproportionately, if at all? They would be a poor indicator of what white people and white culture is, by numbers alone and by their proximity to other semitic cultures. This brings me to the topic of Ashkenazi Jews. Because they are a mixture of european and semitic people, they are unique from whites in that they posses a J haplogroup (see links above). Likewise, a lot of them choose to adopt Jewish culture and identify themselves as being Jewish. However, there are others that chose to adopt european culture and physically resemble whites. For these reasons, whether Ashkenazi Jews are regarded as being white varies across individuals and is open to debate. Had John Key been removed your appeal would be warranted.
I feel the picture I chose is appropriate because only Western Europeans (R1b) appeared on the page. The Polish model represents Eastern Europeans (R1a) and the blonde/blue eye phenotype common to northern whites. Both of these groups are a more accurate descrption of what is generally meant by white people. To me, an Israeli model seems to be more of a political attempt at correctness than of exatcness. What is more absurd is claiming she is more notable. Putting aside the fact that notability has no bearing whatsoever when dicussing a general topic like 'white people', by what criteria is she "more notable". Because she has a website and a name? I personally never heard of her and only noticed her because of a picture that I suspected was in the wrong place.
Lastly, on a personal note, I find your charges of implied racism and neo-nazism most offensive. I would appretiate it if you tone down such remarks.
.... Regarding Deutsche Physik, I also feel it diverges from the main topic. It is not an example of "social whiteness" but rather one of "Jewish hate", and as such more approriately belongs to a thread on antisemitism. At the very most, it deserves a mention via external link. For these reasons I am reverting the picture I had chosen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arjacent (talk • contribs) 22:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Your argument regarding Y-DNA haplogroups is rather circular: you're claiming that those people who you define, a priori, as white have certain genetic characteristics, and that these characteristics indicate their whiteness. Furthermore, the claim that "Bar Rfaeli, being from an Asian country", cannot be white, is preposterous: one might as well claim that South Africans whose ancestors were British and Dutch immigrants cannot be white, because South Africa is an African country. Of course, somewhat like South Africa, the Jewish population of Israel is racially heterogeneous: it includes , etc: they contended that Jewish people couldn't possibly be white, because the Jews were race unto themselves, separate and alien from "Aryan" Germans. I really hope that you aren't trying to employ Wikipedia for the same purpose...
- Now, the virtue of including a photograph of Bar Refaeli is primarily that it infuriates white-supremacist racial theorists who seem to take a great interest in this article :) They cannot possibly stand having an image of someone who, based on her name and country of residence, is quite obviously Jewish even from a cursory reading of the image caption, and whose physical appearance is clearly white, since this would constitute rather embarrassing evidence against their "Jewish race" theory (and once that central tenet of neo-Nazism is disproved, every other associated claim collapses like a house of cards). talk) 04:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
.... I fail to see how my DNA haplogroups employ circular reasoning. I used the common definition of white, 'referring narrowly to people claiming ancestry exclusively from Europe' and showed why Israelites, who according to haplogroups share ancestry with other Asian/Middle Eastern country, cannot possibly fit this definition. The distincion between whites of South Africans is that they do, assuming that interbreeding did not take place or exists at small frequencies (because that would make them mulatto). Israelites are semitic, and their culture and food is vastly different from Europeans. Circumcision, Afro-Asiatic semtic langauges, keffiyeh, pitas, etc. are not things typically associated with 'white culture'. How can you call my definition a priori? If by your broader definition of whites Israelites are included, there should be more pictures of other semitic/arabic peoples such as Iranians and Palestinians, and mulattoes and light eyed orientals should likewise be included who likewise have similar phenotypes. You can see why being this general makes the term obsolete, because in virtually all colloquial talk (with the exception of some regions) the common definition is adopted. Yet you say my definition is not pragmatic? White and Caucasian are not synonymous; neither socially nor genetically.
What makes you so certain Refaeli has such a strong European ancestry? What makes you so certain she subscribes to white culture, according to common definition again, is synonomous with European culture (ie. Christmas, Indo-European langauge, pork, etc). You do realize that most Jewish people, regardless of what variety, largely subscribe to Jewish culture and identify themselves are being Jewish. This isn't a label; they CHOOSE to remain distinct as an ethnic group, hence the term DIASPORA. You completely side step the fact that such a small portion is deserving of such over representation (50% of all 'white people' images, less than 1% total general 'white people') - this gives future readers a very poor representation.
You side-step all of my points and continue with your Neo-Nazi accusations. I couldn't care what Hitler thought the white race is. If you are going to take an objective stance you cannot let something so political slant your view (oooo! Hitler did it, therefore it is evil). In fact, you have identified your purpose of posting Bar's picture: "the virtue of including a photograph of Bar Refaeli is primarily that it infuriates white-supremacist racial theorists who seem to take a great interest in this article". Not objective truth, not useful information, but a silly political agenda aimed at annoying few readers.
- Since Israel, as explained above, is not a racially homogenous society, any argument predicated upon the claim that certain inferences can be drawn about any Israeli citizen due to generalizations about the country is fallacious. Naturally, if you define "white culture" in a way that is deliberately inimical to Judaism, eg, celebrating Christmas or consumption of pork, then no Jewish person could possibly qualify as "culturally white". There is, however, an interesting video of Bar Refaeli demonstrating native-speaker level fluency in one of the world's most common Indo-European languages: English. Is Refaeli still considered "not white" since she also speaks Hebrew at a native-speaker level? Would an otherwise white linguist become "not white" if she became highly fluent in a Hebrew or another Semitic language? Interesting questions to ponder :) talk) 00:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- By the way, I'm not pointing out the similarity of your claims that no Jewish citizen of Israel could possibly be white, even if they are the descendants of talk) 03:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
An ethnicity is not something one chooses, it is something one is born into. Genetic studies show that Jewish people, and hence Israelites, are genetically very similar despite being of varied races (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscegenation#Israel read Israel tab). This is largely because they choose to marry within Jewish families. Regardless of the fact that they reside in various countries, they rarely assimilate and culturally share more with one another than with the country they reside in. That is THEY CHOOSE TO REMAIN ISOLATED, DISTINCT GROUPS despite how widespread they are. The majority of Jewish people, particularily the Ashkenazi, share some European ancestry. But, according to haplogroups, these numbers are in very low frequencies and hence Israelites do not meet the crietia of 'primarly European descent'. Should 'white people' now refer to anyone who is mixed white? Is Barrack Obama a white president?
I did not choose Christmas, etc to purposefully exclude Jewish people, I choose it because that is what the majority of Europes practiced for many centuries and it is embedded into their culture. It also illustrates how the Jewish community chose to remain distinct from their neighbours, by maintaining their traditions. Residing in a country does not define ones ethnicity. Being fluent in a language does not make you part of an ethnic group either. So no, speaking Hebrew, English, French, Persian or whatever has no bearing on whether Bar is white. I believe Bar is not white because she is mixed Middle Eastern. In my opinion, she does not fully resemble what a typical European looks like - there is a touch of something else. Unless you choose to accept that mixed people subscribe to one ethinicity, or that Middle Eastern people are white, she cannot possibly be white. There are some Ashkenazi Jews, particularily those in New York, that look a lot more European. Even though they don't practice Judaism, they still identify themselves as Jewish before white. Are they white? Their appearance certainly suggests that at the genetic level, the semitic DNA has been watered down, but without actual haplogroups I can only conjecture.
Hitler, from what I understand, was concerned with an Aryan race and viewed anyone without blonde hair and blue eyes as sub-human. Aryan and white are not synonymous. His plan was to eliminate a large number of Europeans as well, particularily the Slavs. Not because he view them as not being white, but because he viewed them as not being Aryan.
- No really, it's untenable to distance yourself from Nazism only through an absurd caricature of Hitler's racial theories. talk) 20:22, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
For the last time, do not call me a neo-nazi. Your strawman has no place in this debate. I already said I was not as intimately familiar with Hitler and his racial ideaology as you clearly are. For all I know it could have been a subjective preference for a certain appearance or on genetic analysis that was spot on. His political agendas, even if they were destructive, should not sway objective science. You condemn me for my use of definitions, yet act as if you get to call all the shots. By what token is "white people" a sociological concept? If that were the indeed the case, why would images be needed at all? This line of reasoning suggests that you indeed acknowledge there is a phenotypical aspect to 'white people', and what better way to study this than with genetics? Are you suggesting that your subjective opinion of 'who looks white' take prominence??
In terms of sociology, Jewish culture and European culture differ a great deal too, as I have already pointed out. So what is it that makes Jewish people and European people so alike as to make them one homogenous ethnicity? Please enlighten me.
And even IF (which the above suggests is not possible) Israeli's were somehow equivalent to European whites, how would a picture of an Israeli be a good representation? They are less than 2% of the population, they subscribe to different cultures, and they are mixed with middle easterners. Hmmmm... sounds like a good candidate for a seperate ethnicity, don't you think?
White person is a misleading term, as skin color is not the only criteria. Even then, 'white skin' is more accurately peach/yellow. Unfortunately it is one we are stuck with. Just like Asian to refer to mongloid people (chinese, korean, japanese, etc) and not to Indians, who make up almost half the people of the continent. Or American refering only to North Americans.
Question
So why is there no mention of the Ainu of Japan? They have white skin. And early anthropologists were perplexed over their anomalous existence, some of them hypothesizing (IIRC) that there was a prehistoric white which connected them to Europeans. -- llywrch (talk) 21:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- They don't actually have white skin, just lighter than some of their neighbors. talk) 19:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
images
I can see this article usefully including images. But this will not amount to a gallery of Miss Iceland and assorted other "very white" specimens. It would rather need to be a publication verifiably intended to illustrate skin colour, such as a systematic presentation of Fitzpatrick
- What you deride as "talk) 17:51, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, due to an acute shortage of freely licensed images included in "a publication verifiably intended to illustrate skin colour", the repudiation of talk) 18:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Erik9, are you even aware of the long history of debate on image use both here and at
"Light skin" section
it should be kept in mind that at present light skin is a {{R to section}} pointing here. The section discussing the purely physiological aspects of skin tone can in principle also become a standalone article, summarized here under
I have added the Fitzpatrick illustrations to that section. They are properly part of the "light skin" topic, and may or may not be retained in the case of an article split. --
Sub-Saharan admixture
There is a contentious debate regarding the presence of Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. Input is welcome from editors who are interested in the Genetic history of Europe and the Middle East. Megasaurus rex (talk) 15:23, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely. I am sick of people saying that ALL Europeans should be classified as white just to facilitate for this fallacy that "
RfC: images
Shall this article include images, and if so, under what conditions?
- I'll say it again, this article can usefully include images, but only based on a systematic approach. No random galleries of the "Miss Iceland" kind. My suggestion is to compile a good illustration of "Fitzpatrick types I to IV" (yes, Miss Iceland can be type I). This can appear under the "physical appearance" section. Other images may be appropriate under the "history" section. Nobody is disputing there can in principle be images here. But past experience has shown that allowing random images quickly degenerates into dab (𒁳)19:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- compare the sparing and well-balanced use of images at dab (𒁳)19:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Please review the discussion at talk) 19:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Please review the discussion at
- If images are to be used, they should be used in a way that increases the reader's understanding of the subject. They should not simply be used for decorative purposes. So, to begin with, there should be some obvious anchor to the text in the section to which the image is included. Any images used should also have some sort of encyclopaedic value. Most people think "northern European" when they think "white". Images could show diversity in the meaning of the term - for example, "white" in the US includes Arabs and Iranians, but excludes people like Beyonce or Mariah Carey; most Puerto Ricans self-identify as "white"; in Brazil "white" relates in part to SES. Bob Marley was rejected as "white", while Haile Selassie was embraced as "black". If issues like that are addressed (not saying they should or shouldn't be), then images are very useful. But images added simply as a gallery aren't very useful, especially if they only show one aspect of "whiteness". Guettarda (talk) 19:39, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, to the extent that this article describes a sociological concept, it should clearly illustrate the meaning attached to to usage of the term. talk) 20:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I thought this RFC was about the general issue of including images, not the specific issue of whether this version was preferable to this version. If that's the case, then I definitely support the latter version. That gallery of images does nothing to improve the article and creates a misleadingly narrow impression of the term. If images are to be included, they need to be appropriately anchored to text, and they need to convey a sense of the breadth in which the term is used. A gallery of "nordics" is worse than nothing. Guettarda (talk) 20:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- The "unless it's complete and comprehensive, blank everything" editorial approach is unworkable on Wikipedia. Consider an article that I wrote, talk) 21:13, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- I said nothing of the sort. Please see ) 22:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Since you're claiming that you didn't say what you said, here are some relevant quotations and diffs to illustrate that you did indeed claim that an image selection you perceived as suboptimal was worse than no images at all, while making no offer to improve the article's images in any way:
images added simply as a gallery aren't very useful, especially if they only show one aspect of "whiteness".[3]
If images are to be included, they need to be appropriately anchored to text, and they need to convey a sense of the breadth in which the term is used. A gallery of "nordics" is worse than nothing.[4]
talk) 23:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)- Since you decided to re-insert your off-topic comments about ) 04:42, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Since you're claiming that you didn't say what you said, here are some relevant quotations and diffs to illustrate that you did indeed claim that an image selection you perceived as suboptimal was worse than no images at all, while making no offer to improve the article's images in any way:
- I said nothing of the sort. Please see ) 22:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- The "unless it's complete and comprehensive, blank everything" editorial approach is unworkable on Wikipedia. Consider an article that I wrote,
- I'm sorry, I thought this RFC was about the general issue of including images, not the specific issue of whether this version was preferable to this version. If that's the case, then I definitely support the latter version. That gallery of images does nothing to improve the article and creates a misleadingly narrow impression of the term. If images are to be included, they need to be appropriately anchored to text, and they need to convey a sense of the breadth in which the term is used. A gallery of "nordics" is worse than nothing. Guettarda (talk) 20:38, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, to the extent that this article describes a sociological concept, it should clearly illustrate the meaning attached to to usage of the term.
wth Erik9, can you snap out of your hostile, antagonistic attitude some time soon? This is not how we make progress. You have been told that your suggestions will be considered in good faith as soon as you submit to
Support inclusion of images. Suggest using people with light colored skin. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Conditional support Images should be include but only to illustrate the points being made in the text. There is no point in having 'Here are some white people' images. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Conditional support Agree 100% with Martin Hogbin. Unlimited problems arise with trying to find pictures to represent "white people" generally. Are US Presidents more white than other white people (seriously)? Is the fact that half of the pictures displayed at present are somehow about jewishness anti-semitic, or is it pro-Jewish bias (seriously)? Have we thoroughly checked the ancestry of all the people pictured? Does that matter anyway? Should we have a picture of Barack Obama? Does a picture of Jennifer Aniston tell me anything new about white people? This is all reduced if we ensure that the pictures are closely related to the text. --FormerIP (talk) 23:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'm glad that you support "pictures [which] are closely related to the text". The article currently states that "A common definition of a 'white person' is a person of primarily, or wholly, European ancestry." The images, then, illustrate people who would be characterized as "white" per this "common definition" of the term. The objection that we don't actually know the ancestries of the people depicted, and are simply guessing on the basis of physical appearance would be without merit even in an article describing classifications which have genuine biological meaning. The lead image for the talk) 04:00, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yes that is right. We should not be trying to simplify the subject by showing, for example, the range of people that might be considered white since much of the text is explaining that there is no general agreement on that subject. As Erik9 said the pictures should relate to specific points being made in the text.
- As an example of what I mean we might have two pictures illustrating the 'one drop rule' where one would be considered white under the rule but the other, who might actually have lighter skin, would be considered non-white. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Proposed image reconfiguration
Good examples! USchick (talk) 23:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
- No your captions create a degree of whiteness scale also many of nordic ancestry are not blond hair and blue eyed, can't find somone of nordic ancestry without those features, this will not be turned into a nodicist fun fest,i mean even the jewish girl has nordic features.--Wikiscribe (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Are you seriously arguing that the person whose photograph was selected to depict people of Nordic ancestry looks too Nordic? What legitimate purpose would be served by deliberate circumlocution and avoidance of the most obvious illustration of the subject matter? Some implicit "degree of whiteness scale" is an unavoidable result of accurately describing sociological phenomena under which some people have been regarded as "white" more often, or "more white", than others. Even wholly justified disagreement with social behaviors doesn't imply that we should censor them - per talk) 04:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Your comment that "even the jewish girl has nordic features" is ironic given that, in my argument with talk) 04:38, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Are you seriously arguing that the person whose photograph was selected to depict people of Nordic ancestry looks too Nordic? What legitimate purpose would be served by deliberate circumlocution and avoidance of the most obvious illustration of the subject matter? Some implicit "degree of whiteness scale" is an unavoidable result of accurately describing sociological phenomena under which some people have been regarded as "white" more often, or "more white", than others. Even wholly justified disagreement with social behaviors doesn't imply that we should censor them - per
- No your captions create a degree of whiteness scale also many of nordic ancestry are not blond hair and blue eyed, can't find somone of nordic ancestry without those features, this will not be turned into a nodicist fun fest,i mean even the jewish girl has nordic features.--Wikiscribe (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Or if we need a nordic why not add bjork last time i check she was of nordic ancestry she does come from iceland you don't get more north than that,and keep the jewish girl who has more sterotypcical nordic features so maybe this article can go outside the sterotype a bit--Wikiscribe (talk) 00:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Way too much passive voice and vagueness ... a long time ago Wobble had a photo array that was actually educational. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:40, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Both vagueness and the passive voice are necessary elements in describing social phenomena at a high level of generality. talk) 04:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Both vagueness and the passive voice are necessary elements in describing social phenomena at a high level of generality.
- Vagueness (and a high level of generality) are not always apropriate and sometimes deceptive, as is the case here. The passive voice is almost never necessary, and usually bad, as is the case here. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
I think someone took it down wobble additions citeing original reasearch--Wikiscribe (talk) 03:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Hmmmm Bjork is nordic is she not she is from scandinavia right??Eri(K) yes we are trying to keep it neutral by not leting nordisit turn it into a blond hair blue eyed festival and there are plenty of notations on facts certain societies did not consider certain people white, for one Germans were not white in the united states at one time.In your pic caption nordics have always been considered white so why not add bjork she is nordic she is from iceland...and she is much more well known than that miss iceland fav of yours,or maybe you don't want bjork because she does not fit the stererotype of the nordic that was created by racialist of the viking babe...I am being neutral i swept in just in time most of the pics that were added were of the light hair lights eyes varity along with mostly germanics ethnics...i think the way you want to procede you might be better off working at this article [[Nordic race]}--Wikiscribe (talk) 05:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- You first raised the issue of hair and eye color. Attempting to find an image of someone of Nordic ancestry who you think looks the least Nordic amounts to the use of Wikipedia for political activism, grossly contrary to talk) 23:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
- Consider, for a moment, the application of your skewed logic to the talk) 03:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
What is this "Aryan" nonsense above? Semites were always considered part of the "white"
- Your claim that
Semites were always considered part of the "white"
talk) 00:08, 23 June 2009 (UTC) - Heck, even Wikipedia uses "white" at least partially in the sense of "Aryan". Consider the following excerpt from our talk) 03:32, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Here is a gallery of Fitzpatrick types I to IV, without the highly dubious tangents on Nazi issues that found their way into the image suggestions above for some reason.
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Fitzpatrick I, "Celtic" or "very light Caucasian" type
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Fitzpatrick II, "Nordic" or "light Caucasian" type
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Fitzpatrick III , "Alpine" or "average Caucasian" type
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Fitzpatrick IV, "Mediterranean" or "dark Caucasian" type
This is what I consider a coherent suggestion of a systematic selection of images directly connected to a specific part of the article (the "light skin" part). The "racial" sections will need a different approach. --
Okay dab this is going back to random gallery of sorts i mean the last one we had were at least based on reliable government sources of people who come from certian regions who can be considered white,also this is not the
- Dab's gallery is useful in that it shows some of the breadth of what is considered "white". The main problem with it isn't POV, it's a matter of making a judgement call as to what class to put each person into. It may be problematic in that it gives too much weight to the Fitzpatrick scale. But illustrating variability in a concept isn't POV, not unless what you're doing is misrepresenting that diversity (like the earlier collection of images that was almost entirely "nordic". The challenge is to illustrate the diversity without putting undue weight on the ends of the scale.
- That said, galleries are beside the point. What we need is appropriate images - ones that serve an illustrative purpose, that expand the reader's understanding of the specific set of text to which they're anchored. Guettarda (talk) 05:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- There seems to be a consensus that not only talk) 00:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The purpose of this talk page is to discuss improvements to this article, not chemistry articles, not the black people article. Please abide by the talkpage guidelines. Guettarda (talk) 05:01, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- talk) 16:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
- Please see