User talk:PigeonIP

You may be interested in knowing that SMC and I are actually collaborating to some degree on the landrace. If we can agree on that article, there might be hope for Middle East Peace. There is still snark on both sides, but I'm actually optimistic that SMC is working in good faith. He's found some decent material. Montanabw^(talk) 00:50, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi PigeonIP, I just want to be sure I fully understand your position on the animal breeds article titling thing for the fowl and poultry breed articles (and pigeons). Is it correct that you prefer to see parenthetical disambiguation on the poultry/bird breed articles? My personal view is coming around to a position of "let the people who are most involved in the particular animal species make the call on titling, and best to stay consistent within the species." This is in part due to my own preference for

@Montanabw: Hallo and yes, I am.

The natural dismbiguation is misleading here in many cases. As I last told SMC about the Strasser.[1] I took more time on Talk:Teeswater sheep. Geese and Ducks are still missing there.

The problem with rabbits is equal. I tried to get an overview on rabbit breeds for Wikidata and Wikimedia Commons and got lost, cause the breeds are so different from national association to association, even if their origin is the same. So I do prefer parenthetical disambiguation there as well, to prevent from misinterpretation (breed or group of similar breeds with the same background?), a problem I do still have with the Fantail pigeon for example. Is it about this special breed or all fantailed pigeons?

The breed of chicken, that we call Malay here, is not identical with the Malay chicken, the people there do know (but it may be derived from an original malaian(?) landrace...

The problem with the bigger animals on that is smaller, but also there, as I understood. The Angus cattle for example can work, but there are also the "original breed" an the "modern breed" of Aberdeen Angus[2][3] (=Angus Negro[4]). The Red Angus is handled as a seperate breed in the US, Australia, Peru ... . And isn't the German Angus a type of Angus cattle as well? the Crossbreeds Limangus and Ciangus? An article titeled Angus cattle (at least for me) has to approach all this aspects.

I came about that problem with some black spanish pigs as well, some sheep and even goats.

I am not familiar with horses (Arabs/Arabians come into mind, but I don't know, if it is the only case. I do understand that especially with horses (sports, military, film) there a lot of individuals. So it may really be a problem there.

for individuals

• That is a typical wikipedia-house-made-luxus-problem, where we should concentrate on getting the articles right. How many breed names are in fact identical with the names of individuals of the same species? and with Hovercards and Wikidata it is fast to evaluate if an article is about an individual animal or an animal breed.
• maybe (hen)/(cock) is a possibility to use with chicken (but that is a bridge, we don't have to cross yet, there is only Matilda (chicken) that could be Matilda (pet chicken).
• Category:Individual domesticated pigeons: all are racing pigeons as far as I can see, so (homing pigeon) or more specific (racing pigeon), addressing the sport, or (carrier pigeon), addressing carrying a message, or most specific (war pigeon) could be possible, if the problem really is a big one (and not just made up). But there are different categories about individual domesticated pigeons and pigeon breeds and with Hovercards and Wikidata... I am sure there are also rules againts (war pigeon)-brackets in favour of (pigeon)

(

Martha (pigeon) could be Martha (passenger pigeon), that it was till July[5]

)

• I am very hesitant with (breed) as well, cause the definitions of what a "breed" is, are very different out there. Sometimes "landraces" are also called "breed" or a special variation of a breed (Schalaster pouter comes to my mind). These different definitions are also another reason, why I am unhappy with the move of Category:Domesticated pigeon breeds to Category:Pigeon breeds, as I explained there. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:49, 21 September 2014 (UTC) last edit: PigeonIP (talk) 12:18, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• The horse breeds situation is, as far as I am concerned, figured out and stable (pun intended) as far a naming goes, save for the occasional POV warrior who swings over with a drive-by. Ironically, SMC and I agree on many points of titling the horse breed articles, it's capitalization we fight about there. I pretty much figure that I will not interfere with the consensus reached by the active and knowledgeable editors of animal breed articles and hope that the horse breeds are left alone to the consensus the "horse people" reached. JLAN had some good insights on the concepr to breed, and when I was looking at the landrace article, I found some good research on the topic and the nature of landraces as a stage of breed development. Montanabw^(talk) 20:27, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

fingers crossed ;)

I'd not interfere if he would discuss (and take some time for that) cattle, pigs, sheep and goats with the WikiProject Agriculture. Rabbits with the people that are working there, poultry with the WikiProject Poultry.

It would be easier if we could work on the whole subject, all breeds, and not only on some selected rules, that may interfere with each other in the end. Before I did move any category on commons, I did that list, so everyone could see where I was going to and witch source I use to compare not-english-named categories with english-named.

Before SMC is moving any rabbit article, he should carefully investigate the topic. My conclusion for commons was: let this work be done by someone who exactly knows his rabbits! (I do not have any hopes, that he comes to the same conclusion)

He should know by now that pigeons are a very special task and have to be handled carefully. But he is far from accepting that. His last accusation in my direction was, that I am not able to write proper English and therefore I have to be ignored. Unfortunately the Pigeon Task Force is inactive, but when I started on Commons I got "green light" for my work from its (former) members. --PigeonIP (talk) 21:25, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm basically convinced that a one size fits all approach is not the best approach. People who know each animal well (like Pigeons) need to be able to make their titling scheme work correctly for their animal. Montanabw^(talk) 19:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have to have a list, to fetch up with this:

moved to /RMs

You may find my posting here of use: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Agriculture#Multiple_move_requests Feel free to correct, expand or annotate as needed. Montanabw^(talk) 05:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. --PigeonIP (talk) 12:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused now. Please can you be more explicit? Deb (talk) 14:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

SMC is back, creating more havoc. See JLAN's talk page or [6], [7]. Montanabw^(talk) 05:23, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Montanabw: No, I am not, sorry. I have to deal with some curious "breeds" on de.wp. I am still looking into the Höhenvieh, turkeys and some others. Looking for some cooperations and new authors (or photographers).

I already spend a week of my livetime on that nonsense.

"Dutch Landrace pig" is a shame and embarrasing for every really committed agriculture-author.[8] Even "Dutch Landrace swine" or "Dutch Landrace Swine" is used more often. Reliable sources use "Dutch Landrace". SMC has learned nothing.

Such childish names are the best way to drive potential serious authors away. (seen multiple times). They are more interested in "serious" articles, serious publications, so they are writing for magazines...

If WP wants to be worse than a children's book, that is the best way to get there. Maybe some people have to consider if this is the English Wikipedia or Simple English Wikipedia. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My sympathies. Yes, some days it's Lord of the Flies around here. Montanabw^(talk) 06:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Like lawyers with no other expertise than their one special section of the law, leaving out the most significant: everything should be based on reliable sources. Please have a look at this breed and the other one. --PigeonIP (talk) 21:07, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi PigeonIP: Given that you've reverted my change to your pigeon list, perhaps you'd be good enough to update the titles of the associated articles to match your list? Right now, the articles

Y already done, thank you (to have a look at the orphans). --PigeonIP (talk) 21:00, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great! Thank you. MeegsC (talk) 21:05, 23 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,
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the dispute resolution noticeboard. I will try to understand what you are trying to say. You might be better off to spend more of your time improving the German Wikipedia. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:13, 20 March 2017 (UTC)[reply

]

User:Robert McClenon: I would happily do so, if there would not be so much impact of the mistakes in en-wp to other projects (not only commons and wikidata) with the possibility to just translate into other wikipedia projects. Here is the source of many of these mistakes in pigeon, poultry and livestock articles, so I do try to help to set some things right here and not in any of these many other projects (where the lingua franca is also english, at least in some of them). --PigeonIP (talk) 06:58, 25 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what you are saying. The problem isn't with my knowledge of English. If you can't communicate clearly in English, then your knowledge is not helpful. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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