Talk:Teeswater sheep

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Requested move 25 August 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no move: no consensus in 58 days, last message was 14 days ago Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:16, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Teeswater sheep → Teeswater (sheep) – Revert undiscussed move, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive847 #Undiscussed page moves by SMcCandlish. I'd hoped someone else might deal with this, but it seems not. There are a lot of these (this is just a first instalment), so please excuse (and ignore) any listings that are for any reason incorrect. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 16:10, 9 September 2014 (UTC) Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:34, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:06, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
See previous mass-move request at
Talk:Alentejana cattle#Requested move
, which concluded to stick with natural, non-parenthetical disambiguation and lower-case species name.

Survey

different suggestions:
  • Oppose – the existing titles appear to be mostly better, which I presume was SMcCandlish's intent in moving them (I'm not so much a fan of his point 2 that applies to a few, but I agree on the rest). The rationale for these proposed moves is unclear; it seems to be just that they were previously moved by SMcCandlish. If there are specific ones that share a rationale, they should be proposed as a smaller set so the point can be discussed. Dicklyon (talk) 21:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've clarified the policy and precedent basis for #2, with an <ins>...</ins> insertion.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  23:28, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm not suggesting that Beltex etc. are ambiguous, or need disambiguation; rather, that
Beltex sheep would be more precise and recognizable for what it is. A win on consistency, too. But that's a discussion for elsewhere, if such a move gets proposed. Dicklyon (talk) 23:45, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
@
WT:MOS where people with a more generalized view might have been interested in commenting. Someone may try to use that micro-consensus as evidentiary of something, but it was just a status quo ante reversion, not a discussion on the WT:AT merits, which would surely have stuck with natural disambiguation. Anyway, if at this point in time, anyone tried to move a Beltex-like dog name, e.g., Briard to Briard dog with this sort of "pre-disambiguation" idea, it'd be a holy war. >;-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  09:06, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
  • Support:
"Philippine Native chicken" to
Philippine Native Chicken
,
"Swabian-Hall swine" to
Swabian-Hall Swine
,
"Danish Protest pig" to
Danish Protest Pig
,
"Arapawa pig" to
Arapawa Pig
and
"Forest Mountain pig" to
WP:UCRN
.
Proud capitalized Chicken and Pigs one and all :)
Weak oppose of all replacement of parenthesis as unnecessary and in contravention to presentation of similar terms in other locations ... and yet disambiguation is still provided so the presence of brackets or not may, arguably, be that big of a deal. A sheep is still a sheep whether or not it has been placed in a pen. I think consideration may also be given to the writers of the articles.
However I disagree with the principle of rejecting mass moves. Wikipedia should, arguably, operate on the principles of consistency and mass moves may, arguably, offer the best way to consideration of the full implications of a proposed raft of changes.
✍♪ 11:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
My view is that mass moves should be taken to the project pages, not individual breed articles, particularly where there is more than one animal involved; for example, people working on cattle articles may not be watchlisting sheep, yet these RMs affect both projects. There are many more of these out there, and they affect multiple projects. Montanabw(talk) 18:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • OPPOSE TIMES 97: OMG!! what a mess. So many want to move articles and nobody to work on them. I oppose a blanket move of 97 articles because it is too much to be fair to the articles.
I am amazed, appalled, and shocked. I just can not imagine why we would want to take any article name and put a part of it in parenthesis to prove what? It does not enhance the article and it is unnecessary. Make it concise so short but then because it is now vague add a word in parenthesis that otherwise is just fine being included in the name.
I was convinced we need to be more than vague when I randomly chose
Polish Helmet
(just picked one I saw) to check out in references. I looked at 5 pages on Google and 5 pages on Bing (just to see) that totaled 120 hits that I looked at individually. What I found was amazing in that I saw and learned an unimaginable amount of information about the "Polish M50", the "Used Polish Military Steel Helmet", the "Polish WZ 93 Kevlar Helmet", the "Poland Wz67 - Brendon's Helmets", how to buy, sell, and everything one could imagine concerning helmets one would wear.
I did find three Wikipedia entries and "Polish Helmet Or Kryska Polska, A Breed Of Fancy Pigeon" that was on page two, one reference on page four and none on page five out of 120 hits. If you want to learn about helmets you wear then look up "Polish Helmet" but if you are interested in pigeons you need to add that to the search. This one needs to be fixed bad but to add parenthesis "Polish Helmet (pigeon)" just to add clarity that we are not exploring a helmet one wears? "Polish Helmet is a very short stub as is Helmet pigeon (parent), that need to be merged and forget parenthesis. Then "Humburg Helmet", the "Dutch Helmet", if they are plain-headed or shell-crested, as well as relations to the Nun pigeon can be explored in a good article. That would take editors wanting article improvements and not just moving a bunch of articles just to do it. I know pigeons are not the subject of sheep, chickens, or pigs but they all are (or will be) subject to indiscriminate move requests and many for absolutely no reason. Take it to the project pages!! You have got to be kidding me. One should always want to have the coyote guard the chicken right? Works great if you are not a chicken. Otr500 (talk) 03:58, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Older discussion

Some of these comments were initially posted at
WP:RM
itself

@Justlettersandnumbers, while SMcCandlish is currently banned from making undiscussed moves (as of July 15) these moves were done prior to his ban. Would you object to having a centralized move discussion for all the sheep articles? It looks to me that some editors might support these moves. It's a lot of work for an admin to do a mass revert and then have to move all the articles back later per discussion, if that turns out to be the result. Why not have the discussion first? The issues in this set of articles don't even involve capitalization (as in Talk:American Paint Horse#Requested moves). It's only a question of natural versus parenthesized disambiguation. EdJohnston (talk) 15:01, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also endorse this suggestion, with the obvious caveat that if the bulk RM ends as no consensus it will default to moving back to the previous titles. Jenks24 (talk) 15:17, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me, with the caveat that it be a bulk RM on the merits, not a
West African Dwarf goat, and many more over the years, like most horse breed articles), so there's no point in pre-emptively moving them around again. There's no actual evidence that the names they're at now are controversial (no one seems to think so but Justlettersandnumbers); rather, the controversy was the scale at which I was making such moves without a prior consensus discussion about them. The discussion is overdue; I expected it to happen a month ago.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Thank you, EdJohnston and Jenks24, for your comments. Points in order:

  • I'm truly sorry about the amount of work involved, for everyone, whatever happens. I suppose that is more or less a definition of
    WP:DISRUPTIVE
    editing - doing stuff that takes other people hours of work to sort out. I know I've already spent hours on this that I'd much rather have spent doing something else. There are hundreds of articles affected.
  • I don't see that another discussion is necessarily required for most of these; we've already had two,
    Auckland Island Pig
    above. Both ended with restoration of the status quo ante.
  • There are, I think, two other types of incompetent move in the complete list: the addition of an unnecessary "disambiguation" to a title that requires none, such as adding "chicken" to
    Naked-neck chicken
    when even in the hyphen-crazy UK it is called Naked Neck. Neither should require discussion to revert.
  • That said, I'd like those who will (or won't) have to do the hard work to make the call. If you don't mind, Ed? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • How about we open a formal move discussion for the first four sheep moves, and leave a note in the RM pointing to the complete list of sheep that SMM moved. That way if the discussion finds consensus to move back the first four, then an admin might go ahead and do the rest of the list as 'reverts of undiscussed moves'. That reduces the work involved but still gives a chance for consensus to be formed. EdJohnston (talk) 20:22, 25 August 2014 (UTC) [reply]
    • Removed my earlier suggestion. This is now a regular move discussion for all the animals in the above list. It is a proposal (by User:Justlettersandnumbers) to put all of them back to their original titles. EdJohnston (talk) 02:16, 26 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some notes regarding Justlettersandnumbers's invective and assumptions:
List of observations about this RM

{{hatnote: On item on this list was wrong - Justlettersandnumbers (Jlan) didn't list this mass, mess RM here personally, but only at RM; it was moved here administratively as a relisting of a contested "noncontroversial" proposal.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)}}[reply]

  1. Pre-loading what is supposed to be a neutral discussion about article names with a boatload of wikipolitical and personalizing antagonism is a process violation. This is not a vote and nominators are not supposed to be campaigning, much less doing so in a way that verges on personal attacks. All of Justlettersandnumbers's aspersion-casting about my editorial judgment and competence seems to be happening because the nom's RMs now at issue, with only a handful of potential exceptions, are poorly supported by facts, policy, normal practice, or logic; it is an
    Forest Mountain
    (?!).
  2. "I don't see that another discussion is necessarily required for most of these" – Of course it is. Neither of the prior discussions Justlettersandnumbers referenced, about unrelated articles, are particularly relevant. The first was about reverting to status quo ante due to moves being undiscussed, and whether the names comported with
    WP:NATURAL
    . It's not a case I would care to argue about in detail here, as it's just a distraction. It has no impact on the list of moves contemplated here, in which Justlettersandnumbers wants to prevent inclusion of the breed name entirely unless it's in the form of parenthetical disambiguation, for reasons that aren't very clear.

  3. "There are, I think, two other types of incompetent move in the complete list: the addition of an unnecessary "disambiguation" to a title that requires none, such as adding "chicken" to
    Brown Carpathian, and Indo-Brazilian
    ).
  4. hyphenation against all the evidence in the sources, such as
    WP:COMMONNAME
    matter, and need not be a source of melodramatics. A rare case like this has virtually no relevance to the rest of this discussion, or anything else for that matter.
  5. "I've already spent hours on this that I'd much rather have spent doing something else." It really clearly wasn't enough given how malformed this RM is; is really kind of unbelievable that Justlettersandnumbers had the hypocrisy to refer to my moves as incompetent; I think I made a grand total of one actual error (the hyphenation case, and even an MOS purist would say it wasn't an error). No one required Justlettersandnumbers personally to list a bunch of pages for RM, much less in a big confused and self-contradictory pile. If something is too much for someone or they feel it's a waste of their time, they should something productive instead of "messing about", to use Justlettersandnumbers term, with article names they can't keep straight.
  6. It also noteworthy that in response to
    WP:AT
    policy problems.)
  7. Justlettersandnumbers's promise that this RM mess is "is just a first instalment" is troubling. It would be entirely appropriate for the closer to admonish Justlettesandnumbers to never launch a disruptively confused mass RM like this ever again. Hopefully, my numbered analysis of the different types of RMs the nom lumped together here may be enough to save this RM from being closed early as an abuse of process or simply too broken to proceed. It probably took more time to do this than Justlettersandnumbers "wasted", but I'll consider it time well-spent if we get more clarity and consistency out of this. Above all, it should not be used as a platform for yet more
    WP:CCC in particular, that's long enough with silence enough to indicate that they actually now represent a consensus. (Of course, I moved them in the first place to conform to broader, pre-existing consensus on how we name articles.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:07, 15 September 2014 (UTC) (edited from Sep 13 original)[reply
    ]
Fair enough. I'll just rescind collapse-box the entire thing, rather than pick at the details, since it's probably not constructive anyway. Other than to note "This is now a regular move discussion for all the animals in the above list. It is a proposal (by
WP:LAME to have a huge pile of demanded status quo ante reverts here. I hope that the analysis and grouping of them I've done is enough that this mess can proceed in an orderly fashion. Meanwhile, I'm proceeding with other RMs, while avoiding any that would move "Foo (bar)" breed names to "Foo bar" ones, pending the outcome of this one. The upcoming ones I'm about to list are of a different nature, and properly grouped into separate multi-page RMs that focus on moves of the same exact kind.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  12:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Comment. As must be obvious from the initial remarks in this discussion, this was not originally intended to be a move request; if it had been so intended it would have been formulated very differently, and posted at WT:WikiProject Agriculture. Some points:

  • What's at issue here is whether or not to restore some hundreds of articles to the titles they were at before SMcCandlish moved them without discussion and without reference to the WikiProjects concerned or (that I'm aware of) to the few editors who actually contribute in this area (I'm thinking of BlindEagle, Steven Walling, JTdale, PigeonIP, Richard New Forest, Montanabw, Ealdgyth, I've surely forgotten many; and also, incidentally, myself).
  • There are a lot of these articles. The list above is merely the first hundred or so. The rest are listed here and here.
  • Many of these moves were made after McCandlish had been specifically told that such moves were contentious, and that the normal move request process should be used. All this has already been extensively discussed at ANI (now at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive847#Undiscussed page moves by SMcCandlish), where McCandlish was roundly criticised and banned for three months from moving articles.
  • McCandlish has decided (again without reference to WikiProjects or other interested editors) how he wants domestic animal breed articles to be named, and is apparently on a one-man crusade to impose that decision on the rest of us. Of course, as he worked his way through the categories, the mantra "like almost all articles in this and other animal breed categories" became less and less untrue.
  • In many of these cases parentheses were removed citing
    WP:NATURAL or with the mantra "use natural disambiguation not parentheticals when possible, per WP:AT policy". That policy reads:

    Natural disambiguation: If it exists, choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. Do not, however, use obscure or made-up names

    .

In some cases (the Teeswater is one) following the breed name with a species name produces a phrase that can be commonly found in English; in others, such as the Tacola, there is no evidence that the title McCandlish has chosen is ever used in English;
WP:AT
policy.
  • McCandlish is now citing the titles of pages that he himself moved in other move requests.
  • Two specific types of move by McCandlish have already been discussed and reverted: his undiscussed moves of horse pages from Breed Name Species to Breed Name species here, and his undiscussed moves of dog articles from Dog Breed (dog) to Dog Breed dog here. Those two precedents cover all the articles listed above with the exception of the two that Anthony Appleyard raises valid objection to.
  • WP:BRD. There are surely inconsistencies in our naming of breed articles, and they may need to be discussed; that discussion, when it happens, should be based on the previous position, not the result of one person's attempt to impose his will on the project.
    Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 09:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Okay, let's try this again.
Itemized response. I doubt anyone actually wants to read this stuff, so I'll just collapse-box it again so people can skip it easily. Justlettersandnumbers should probably do the same with the above text-wall.
  1. Justlettersandnumbers (hereafter Jlan) already agreed to not pursue a
    WP:IDHT
    problem. That can be shown to be a recurring theme here.
  2. Arguing that "the few editors who actually contribute in this area", and listing them by cherry-picked name, are the only ones with a stake here is not only a factual misrepresentation about who edits domestic animal breed articles, far more importantly it's a dismal failure to understand
    WP:LOCALCONSENSUS policy). Jlan's perpetual insinuations, running for months now, that I and various other editors who do in fact write breed articles (just not the ones Jlan like as often as Jlan would like, apparently), as well as some who don't but are involved WP article titles policy discussions and frequent RM discussion contributors, somehow aren't welcome in these discussions is snide, ad hominem
    nonsense, and grossly misplaced elitism.
  3. Opening a
    personal attack
    by Jlan – there have been others, but I find hauling people to ANI or AE for personality problems to be distasteful, so I never do anything about them, to date), it's precisely the kind of discussion involving "other interested editors" that Jlan decries as not happening, so the characterization defies the reality right in front of Jlan's face.
  4. Going out of one's way to re-mention, in the most ad hominem way possible, the non sequitur about a long-resolved ANI case concerning whether move process was proper two or three months ago, the decision in which was agreement that RM should be used, and then Jlan following this by attacking me for using RM process, is hypocritical and disruptive.
  5. Jlan somehow expresses shock and outrage that, as cleanup efforts among inconsistent article names in breed categories have progressed slowly over several months, exclusively using RM processes since the ANI about not using RM, than the names have become decreasingly inconsistent. What could possibly surprise Jlan about it? It's how Wikipedia works.
  6. Jlan's renewed suggestion to move
    hand wave
    distraction.
  1. Also crucially, there demonstrably is no controversy here, other than the one Jlan is personally manufacturing and perpetuating. Over two months of no controversy about the actual content of the current article names from anyone but Jlan personally is a pretty obvious indication that a new consensus has been formed. (It may be a clear indication of a few other things, too, but editor behavior issues are not an RM matter.) While silence is not the strongest consensus, between the mass RM filing, two ANI cases (one rejected as frivolous, the other resolved and followed without incident), and a number of related but properly formed RMs running concurrently and calmly, there is more than enough "advertising" of this issue that interested parties can comment. As of this writing, they're entirely against Jlan's proposed names. [Update: PigeonIP has also sided with Jlan, but raises no new arguments, and seems to have a confused view of capitalization in English.]
  2. The fact they were actual former names at one point doesn't make them any less proposed names now; too much time has passed, with too much explicit agreement to not reflexively revert. It's already progressed to a substantive discussion about the article titles' relative merits, in many cases, and in others, multiple commenters observe that the cases are particular and need to be the subject of their own individual RMs. The idea that discussion on the merits of what the names should be has to proceed from what the names used to be, the names Jlan prefers, is transparently farcical at this late date. Jlan is proceeding from a false basis that there's some kind of popularity contest to
    WP:DISRUPTIVE
    editing." The first indicates that Jlan acknowledged over a month ago that there wasn't any actual controversy about the content of the moves (and Jlan knows the procedural controversy about the process by which they were arrived at was resovled at ANI, since Jlan cited that ANI case one sentence earlier). The second of these quoted statements indicates that Jlan also acknowledges the disruptiveness inherent the approach taken by this editor, who did it anyway, and is now trying to go back to that method despite the discussion having moved past it.
  3. Finally, I'm not sure why Jlan, except as another
    fallacy ad homimem, re-mentions old move discussions that aren't relevant to these cases, after it's already been pointed out why they're not relevant – American Paint Horse
    raised a debate about whether in that individual special case the species name was formally a part of the breed name, a question not raised about any of the articles at issue here, and the dog one was a pure status quo ante revert that, unlike the extant discussion as it has moved on now, did not address what the names should actually be, but only the process followed. Most of us understand that such arguments will not magically become relevant just because one repeats oneself. So, it's yet another, very clear, indication of a IDHT problem. The fact that Jlan's entire mass listing and repeated rehash arguments about it fails to discern even that the article names resulting from the horse and dog cases, like around half of the renames Jlan's mass-mess-RM proposes, directly contradict each other, is highly indicative of what the problem here is.
I could go on, but I don't think it would be useful to do so. I'm not angry at Jlan for having personality clashes with me; rather, the arguments presented by this editor to mire or derail this and related RMs are not sustainable under any RM-relevant rationale, and that's all that needs to be shown here.
I've suggested that Jlan (and Montanabw) and I shoudl probably engage in a formal
WP:AT one, really.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC) Update: Montanabw has pointedly refused dispute resolution.[2]  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Newer discussion
Repeat: "almost all breed categories". Note that "almost all" != "all". The lack of consistency between them is a bigger issue than the exact contents of one of them in particular.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you
routinely ignore and dismiss disagreement with your views is a major cause of these disputes, their length (both in words and time), and their heatedness. Surely you must realize this by now.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
It's a mess because of the way it was launched. You're applying extremely selective judgement here. I'm being wordy, but PigeonIP, with his mile-long, repetitive lists is not? I'm "throwing accusations", but Montanabw's direct personal attacks don't count? RM is a
WP:AT policy discussion in almost all respects, but only people other than me are allowed to link to policies? I don't know what discussion ("accusing someone of disrupting") you're vaguely alluding to; doesn't this post of yours constitute exactly the kind of "throwing accusations" you're <ahem> accusing me of? How am I not being sensible? Every single post I've made is grounded in reason, facts, policies; I'm sorry if this comes off as gruffness. When I'm subjected to ad hominem after ad hominem, I'm not terribly inclined to be cordial; being critical and distant is not incivility. If you think the debate is noisy, lengthy and noncollegial, why contribute to all three of those problems?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Comment on pigeons
  1. Ice Pigeon
    : "pigeon" is part of the name of the breed, the article is about one breed of (fancy-)pigeon.
  2. Jacobin (pigeon)
    : "pigeon" is not part of the breeds name.
  3. Carrier pigeon, Homing pigeon, Utility pigeons
    , defined by how they are used by us).
Looking for references or actually trying to understand the task at hand, he would have seen, that all breeds High-flying pigeons are called "Highflyer" (with some expections like the
Chistopolian High-flying Pigeon is the breeds name, cause Christopolian high-flying does not work, or would have moved to Christopolian Highflyer[3] I was not able to find any references for the Ural pigeon, also there are a lot Ural tumbler breeds, the Orlow Tumbler/Orloff Tumbler (refering to Schütte and Schille: Orlowtümmler in German) and the Griwuni Tumbler
, that is a russian "maned" tumbler. Maybe the breeds name is "lost in translation", there is a type of Griwuni Tumbler, that may be the one in question, but I do have no picture of that one to compare.
Thanks for the detailed level of the response, but this analysis is still missing the fact that
Ice Pigeon the "[p|P]igeon" part is capitalized because it's universally considered part of the breed name, that's surely fine, but lack of this circumstance would not call for using brackets.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
Thanks for missing the fact, that "Fantail pigeon", "Helmet pigeon" and others are refering to groups of spiecial variations of pigeons... --PigeonIP (talk) 17:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't missed that fact at all, and it has nothing to do with the naming, unless you're suggesting that they all each cover multiple breeds or varieties of pigeon, in which case the proper titles would be Fantail pigeons, etc. (note the plural). Still no case for parenthetical disambiguation.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
btw. a Jacobin pigeon is the
Danish Jacobin as well. --PigeonIP (talk) 17:54, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
That would just be another case for natural disambiguation (to distinguish from
Danish Jacobin pigeon.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Comment referring to chicken

(refering to Listing of European Poultry Breeds and Colours, PCGB breed gallery, breed classification of the PCGB, APA recognised breeds and varieties)

Same issues as with pigeons, above. There is no case for using parenthetical naming. You're mistaking "Ancona chicken" as an assertion that that string is the name of the breed; but it's "Ancona" followed by natural disambiguation. No case has been made for violating
Norwegian Forest Cat. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  16:38, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Why not move them back? Because it was already agreed, even by Jlan, over a month ago that a status quo ante revert would be a waste of time.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply

]

WP:Natural:
"The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English."
WP:Natural expires when the
WP:PRECISION
criterion is not good enough. The natural disambiguation is one of three methods employed to avoid using an ambiguous title.
The sources don't lie: Google: "Sebright chicken" -Wikipedia"Sebright+chicken"+-Wikipedia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8. Everyone, everywhere, all the time disambiguates breed names by appending the species (e.g. "chicken") or a synonym of it (e.g. "fowl") after the breed name whenever writing or speaking about a breed to people who are not necessarily going to be certain what they're referring to. This is universal, across all domestic animals, in English and I'd bet good money most other languages.
Norwegian Forest Cat.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  10:23, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
right, sources don't lie: Google Book Search results for
Lets have a closer look: some are on "Sebright (chicken)" others are about some chicken breeds and Domestic Pigeons from Sir J. Sebright. There is no reference to the Sebrights in Darvins The origin of species., for example.
--PigeonIP (talk) 11:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I agree with you that
Sebright Bantam is a better name; I'm just disagreeing with your earlier suggestion that "Sebright chicken" is wrong. This discussion is further proof that many of these articles need an individual discussion on the merits of what their titles should be, and that reneging on the agreed moratorium on a mass revert to status quo ante of over two months ago would be worse than pointless.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
  • To get back to bantam breeds, are there any that are not bantam variants of larger breeds? – Yes, there are. I pointed you multiple times to the
    Sebright (chicken)
    . There are others as well. There is also large fowl without a corresponding bantam breed.
  • "Something chickens": SMcCandlish, you moved them all from "Something (chicken)" to "Something chicken", without any expertise. It is common, that, if there is a corresponding bantam breed to large fowl, it is mentioned within the article of the large fowl breed. The bantam breed title redirects there. In most of these cases it is not desirable to have a separate article on the bantam. That is, how writing poultry-articles works, it serves the reader and leads to a better quality of the articles. You don't have to rewrite the informations, that are relevant for both breeds. Those informations, that are interesting for readers not familiar with chicken. --PigeonIP (talk) 08:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, then clearly we need "Foo Bantam" for any breed where there is only a bantam form, or for which there is a larger one as well but the bantam form has its own article. I agree that it's generally not desirable to have separate articles in the latter cases, but this is not a merge proposal. This doesn't affect the naming discussion otherwise. If "Foo" is classified as a breed, with two forms, do "Foo chicken" (natural disambiguation). If they're treated as separate breeds, but we want to cover them both in one article, "Foo chickens" (plural). This is not rocket science.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  10:23, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Articles are already about both. That is the situation at hand! There is no need to request merge (nor to split).
And please think about the reader here!
Sebright (chicken) are both fine. The inexpedienced reader is likely not to know, what to expect with Sebright Bantams; Sebright (chicken) is better, on this one (WP:PRECISE) --PigeonIP (talk) 11:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
1) I know; I'm not the one who brought that up. I'm saying discussion of whether or not we want articles to be about both is off-topic here, so we need to stop going on about it <sigh>. 2) I am;
Sebright (chicken). This is not difficult.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Comment refering to turkey breeds

--PigeonIP (talk) 17:26, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Same issues as with pigeons and chickens, above.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

comment on pigs mentioned in the RM

More pig-relatet RMs are at

Talk:Asturian Mountain and Talk:Dutch Landrace#Requested moves. The Ukrainian Spotted Steppe (FAO) and Ukrainian White Steppe (FAO) don't have to be distinguished. On Talk:Dutch Landrace#Requested moves are some "Landrace moves" requested. If they have to be distinguished (like the Dutch Landrace), that shall be through a parenthetical disambiguation. Names like Dutch Landrace goat are very uncommon.[15] --PigeonIP (talk) 20:03, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

Same issues as with pigeons, chickens, and turkeys above. On second thought, despite thanking you for the detail level earlier, at this point I'm fairly certain that adding rambling lists here is not elucidating anything, it's just adding verbiage to a discussion in which the principles and rationales for them are already clear enough.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources regularly use natural disambiguation for these breeds

Of course, reliable sources (even when they mostly use just the breed name by itself when there's no ambiguity) regularly and predictably use precisely the kind of natural disambiguation as proposed here, when they need to be clear what species they mean (as WP always needs to; we can never presume that any given reader already knows that an article is about cattle or pigs or whatever before going to the article, as one might in a paper about cattle (etc.), and even those often use natural disambiguation anyway). Natural disambiguation is a natural feature of the English language (that's why it's called natural disambiguation, after all). I did this sorucing for a different RM (see

Talk:Asturian Mountain#Requested moves
) but it's equally applicable here, and similar source can be found for the entries on the RM list up top:

This convincingly shows that breeds have formal names ("Asturian Mountain", " Asturian Valley", "Finnish Ayrshire", "Dorset Down", etc.) to which capitalized species ("Cattle", "Pig", "Sheep" etc. are usually not appended, yet that they are regularly

WP:ILIKEIT, and there's no way around that, so let's stop stalling.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  18:07, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply
]

is all that fuss really about reading "sheep" in brackets as individual sheep?

// as implied with that edit// later added by PigeonIP (talk) 20:10, 24 September 2014 (UTC) so what does (sheep) mean?[reply]

  1. individuum of the species sheep
  2. kind of sheep?

I'd love to see the policy on "how to read a bracket".

--PigeonIP (talk) 17:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The best I have seen on offer is:
✍♪ 11:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
Well, the fact that the one example the policy gives of an animal term followed by a more general animal term is explcitly stated to refer to an individual animal, and hundreds of such animal articles exist using precisely this kind of parenthetical disamiguation (e.g. on racehorse articles) is a very strong indication that the RM contemplated here, to move numerous breed articles [back] to parenthetical disambiguation is a really bad idea.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Did I read this right? "Otherwise there is a notable absence of mention of brackets in the guidelines".
Parenthesis is covered at Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Naming the specific topic articles. #2) "A disambiguating word or phrase can be added in parentheses" but adds "but it is usually better to rephrase such a title to avoid parentheses (for instance, Vector (spatial) was renamed to Euclidean vector).". This is followed by "Natural disambiguation is generally preferable to parenthetical disambiguation;". Usually better to rephrase could be confusing. Adding "If natural disambiguation is not available, a parenthetical is used", might clarify things and possibly mean to use parenthesis as exceptions. I am not sure how we can wikilawyer this to exclude sheep, chicken, and pigs, attempting to add parenthesis to 92 out of 97 articles, but it will be interesting to see how it will play out. Otr500 (talk) 08:14, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support restoring all to their original titles (except those for which
    Harvard university (possible rationale: " ... the word 'university' is just a disambiguator and is not part of the common name of the institution")? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 12:52, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
    ]
Note. The outcome of this discussion may affect other recent move requests by SMcCandlish including:
Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have missed the critique of the reasoning by PigeonIP, et al., above. You're also making a bogus
WP:Specialist style fallacy for an exploration of why that's not reasonable [note: I'm not "citing myself" - it's not a guideline, it's simply a page in which some reasoning has been laid out so it can be referred to without re-re-re-repeating it]). You're next engaging in a straw man; no one has suggested anything at all like "Harvard university", much less on the irrational basis that "university" is a natural disambiguator; it's a false analogy. Finally, the outcome of this this RM is unlikely to affect other RMs at all, because it's a request for a status quo ante mass revert of moves from over two months ago, and does not address the merits of any of the names. I've broken them out into groups for discussion on the merits, and most responses to have have been in favor of the moves as they are, or suggestions that each article should be discussed individually. As noted above, there was already an agreement between me, yourself, and the admins most likely to be performing any such moves that we would not be doing a status quo ante revert, but rather discussion the names on their merits. Why is it that you're now so insistent on status quo ante reverts you already agreed not to pursue, and avoiding the substantive discussion of the names?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
And that's the tip of the iceberg of move requests, there are at least six across multiple articles. May want to consolidate all of these at WP:Agriculture. JMO. Montanabw(talk) 03:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It would be highly irregular to host an RM discussion on the talk page of a wikiproject in which participants are already taking sides in the debate, because every single !vote will trigger watchlist notices for most participants in the project, and this will lead directly to project members dog-piling any comment they don't agree with. It would be blatant vote-stacking and simply lead to a
WP:MR dispute. Multi-article RMs are normally (actually, almost universally) hosted at the talk page of one of the articles proposed for moving, and the RM bot will notify the talk pages of the rest. This is standard operating procedure. It's also SoP to group RMs when the issues raised by them are the same or similar, as I've done with Blue Grey and the other small-group RMs noted immediately above. On multiple pages now, you've been venting in an ad hominem manner about this RM format as if it's some kind of wrongdoing on my part, but its the normal and expected method. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply
]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review
. No further edits should be made to this section.
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